Since when does a person's own weight count towards encumbrance?A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Unless the character with a carrying capacity of zero is stark naked and carrying no equipment, he is overloaded.
This question is further complicated by wondering what else you can do while paralyzed (our party just had a blasphemy dropped on it).
Can you channel energy?
Depends on your requirement (or lack thereof) to present a holy symbol. The 'gotcha' line in the rules is "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability." There are some things in the game that can "stand in" for a holy symbol; reliquary shield, a trait that gives you a birthmark that acts as a holy symbol, a special tattoo or scar, etc. If (some of) these are "always presented", then you're good to go.
Can you use a witch hex?
Depends on the hex. Some explicitly require certain acts. Example: Charm Hex requires "beckoning and speaking soothing words." If you can't beckon or speak those words, you're out of luck.
Can you activate smite evil?
Not sure what good activating it does you, but all that's mentioned are the swift action and a "call out to the powers of good to aid". If that call can be mental, then why not ?
Can you lay on hands on yourself?
A paladin needs a free hand to do this and is required to touch the wounds to be healed, so not likely.
Can you avert your eyes from a gaze attack? (how do we know you weren't paralyzed in the middle of a blink or while glancing down at your spell component pouch?)
That's what the save determines. If you were already averting your eyes before you were paralyzed, I'd say you still are. If not, then you can't start averting them. You're stuck looking at whatever you were looking at when you got paralyzed.
What are the purely mental actions that could be performed? Directing a spiritual weapon/flaming sphere was mentioned earlier...
Concentrating on any of the spells that require ongoing concentration.
Some spells like message won't function because you can't whisper, but the other mental telepathy spells would work fine.
My point is simply that a valid interpretation of the RAW makes paralyzed creatures immobile = immovable as an Immovable Rod. I can understand if you prefer another valid interpretation, and gladly await any arguments against this interpretation... but I fail to see how this interpretation can be all that hard to understand. Immovable Rods work, right?Note: all the silly arguments about Golarion's rotation and revolution around its sun make as much sense for the immovable rod as for a paralyzed creature. In other words, none, your argument is specious, go home. :)Excuse me? No. It doesn't work that way. If you want to be literal, be my guest. But obey your own rules. You don't get to discard the implications of your rules and act like we're the ones being ridiculous.
We all "get it" that immovable rods are not literally immovable. We all "get it" that they are immovable relative to their surroundings. So not in fact immovable at all.
So which is it? Are the immovable or not? Are you going to play the literal game or not? You must choose, and because there is an absurdity in the literal choice doesn't make US wrong for pointing it out.
Your point is that "Immobile" means literally incapable of being moved, so therefore being paralyzed means you should be treated like an Immovable Rod. But Immovable Rods are not incapable of being moved. So, either you want to treat it like an Immovable Rod or you want it to be incapable of being moved.
Clearly then, context dictates that literally immovable is not what is intended by "Immobile". Thus, we look to other definitions. "Motionless" or "Not moving" makes more sense.
Besides, the entry for the status effect of "Paralyzed" (not the attack entry you referenced) does not contain the word "Immobile". It simply says, "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." So again, contextually your contention does not make sense.
In game, paralysis doesn't mean "lose bodily control." That would mean you go limp; we're explicitly told that doesn't happen. So what does?
Losing control of one's body does not necessarily imply that one then falls completely limp. You can have a complete lack of control of your body, even your muscles maintain rigidity. Real world examples abound, meaning the concept is not too foreign to be applied in a role playing game.
Care to explain away the Str and Dex dependencies for flying with Fly, then?
One problem with basing this argument on the fact that Fly is a Dex-based skill is you run into situations like my Irori-worshipping character who has the Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) trait and treats the skill as Wis-based.
One problem with basing this argument on the fact that Fly is a Dex-based skill is you run into situations like my Irori-worshipping character who has the Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) trait and treats the skill as Wis-based.
Care to explain away the Str and Dex dependencies for flying with Fly, then?
That wouldn't keep Fly from being a Dex-based skill. It just allows you to use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier.
@Moondragon
teleportation doesn't rely on a Str score, fly does because it has a carry capacity, and exceeding that renders you immobile. Since paralyze gives you an effective Str of 0, you can not fly and plummet to the ground. Teleport still works though as long as you can cast it silently
actually, now that I think about it teleport also has weight restrictions, that that doesn't work either
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.A specific rule overriding the general rule? Like, moving through an opponent's threatened area provokes an AoO. Except when it doesn't.
EDIT: Went back and marked this as a FAQ candidate. Until/unless the devs rule differently, I can't see a solid argument for not treating paralyzed creatures as thinking, breathing immovable rods. Under this interpretation, I think the answer to the original question is "no, you can't fly while paralyzed - unless you're a winged creature flying using your wings and you want to fly down."
an immovable rod doesn't fall from the sky when activate, but a flying creature does when paralyze is activated on them. The only option is that you fall like a rock
I would say that you fall, but gently (feather fall). Much in the same way you fall if the spell timer runs out.
But it would be a house rule.
fly's not dispelled nor is the duration up. There is absolutely no reason to feather fall. You slam to the ground and take your 30 damage or so
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Finally! If this is true, we can lay my theory to rest. Where does it say you can pick up a paralyzed creature?
There are monsters who use their ability to paralyze creatures to do so, and then drag them back to their lair to feast on them.
I imagine paralyzed creatures are simply stiff as a board, which is why you have that text about an inability to move limbs.
Here's an honest question: if you're flying around and get hit with Hold Person, can you keep flying? The gist of "Hold Person" is "you're paralyzed." Now, full disclosure: the text for Hold Person says you can't take actions and doesn't mention purely mental ones, but I think we can agree it's possible that the intention is for it to be comparable to regular paralysis. If you're the subject of Hold Person, can your friends come pick you up and carry you off? Are there known precedents in APs for or against this?
welcome to the conversation. Feel free to read through the comments
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Where does it say you can't?I've taken the following to imply, if not outright state, this:
He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.paralyze their victims, immobilizing themIt's just one interpretation. Frankly, I'd like to see something somewhere that rules this out.
Considering that isn't even in the description of "Paralyzed", it isn't applicable.
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act.
The paralyzed character is unable to move himself, but that doesn't mean that other creatures are unable to act upon him. There is no implication anywhere in the description of the effect that prevents an outside force from imparting motion upon the paralyzed character.
My point is that Immobile and Immovable are very similar words; indeed, they are listed as synonyms and have the same primary definition in at least one (online) dictionary. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to take "immobile" to mean "immovable" based on this.
Your point is that "Immobile" means incapable of being moved, by drawing the analogy to the Immovable Rod. But the Immovable Rod itself is not incapable of being moved.
This is the first line from the description of paralysis. Based on the grammar of this sentence, it appears that "paralyze" seems to imply "immobilize". At least, that's the effect of the way the sentence is structured. In fact, one could argue that an equivalency is being created between "paralyze" and "immobilize" based on this construction. Of course, this does appear only to apply to paralysis delivered by monsters and/or special abilities... so paralysis by poison could work differently, except there's nothing saying how it works any differently.
It's not the first line of the effect entry in the glossary, which is what is relevant for things like Hold Person, etc. The effect of "Paralyzed" makes no mention of being "immobilized" or being "immovable". The Paralyzed entry makes no mention of immovability. Thiss is the status effect applied to someone who is paralyzed or held, generally. So even if your argument might hold a modicum of water, it would only do so at all for targets of a creatures special attack of Paralysis. And I contend that this is untenable regardless, because now you're treating paralyzed creatures differently based upon the source of the paralysis.
But Immovable Rods are not incapable of being moved.From the PRD:
When the button is pushed (a move action), the rod does not move from where it is, even if staying in place defies gravity.For whatever interpretation of "does not move from where it is" we can agree on, my point is that paralyzed should (usually, except for winged creatures in flight at the time of paralysis) mean the same thing.
You should quote the entire section.
This rod looks like a flat iron bar with a small button on one end. When the button is pushed (a move action), the rod does not move from where it is, even if staying in place defies gravity. Thus, the owner can lift or place the rod wherever he wishes, push the button, and let go. Several immovable rods can even make a ladder when used together (although only two are needed). An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must make a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.
Immovable Rods aren't actually incapable of being moved. That's the point. You're drawing an analogy to an item that doesn't even do what you're saying it does. Immovable and Immobile do not mean, in this context, what you are claiming them to mean.
See above; it doesn't contain "immobile", but it does create strong comparison between "paralyze" and "immobilize".
Besides, the entry for the status effect of "Paralyzed" (not the attack entry you referenced) does not contain the word "Immobile".
Immobilize again can also mean to make incapable of independent movement. And it makes far more contextual sense.
fly's not dispelled nor is the duration up. There is absolutely no reason to feather fall. You slam to the ground and take your 30 damage or soI would say that you fall, but gently (feather fall). Much in the same way you fall if the spell timer runs out.
But it would be a house rule.
That is why I said it would be a house rule.
@aegrisomnia
The paralyzed is not as an immovable rod. It gives a clear example of a winged creature falling from the sky after paralyze is activated on them. When it states that your friends can't move you its referring to being repositioned, so your buddies can't come alog and make you pick your nose.
Nowhere in the fly spell does it sate any difference of mechanics from winged flight. There's a visual difference because you don't have wings, but if there were a mechanical difference it would be mentioned. The fact that it incorperates fly checks, which is a Dex skill, defines this to be true. Maybe you need to he able to flex your muscles or something, I dont know, I just know it incorperates a Dex skill
Either way though, fly has a carry capacity determined by your Str which is rendered an effective 0 while paralyzed. So for multiple reasons you fall swiftyly to the ground
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FWIW, I've been using this as my reference for "Paralysis": http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_paralysis
Upon looking again, it looks like there are separate sections for "Paralysis" and "Paralyzed", and I grant that "paralyzed" doesn't contain language about becoming "immobilized." Does the "Paralysis" entry in the Glossary only reference the Universal Monster Ability? If so, that's somewhat confusing.
It doesn't change anything. The UMA "Paralysis" is effectually no different than the CRB "Paralyzed" in that it is in reference to the target creature unable to affect himself. It is not a literal "roots grow and bind the paralyzed character to a specific spot", it is a colloquial "the character is unable to move his own limbs and therefore cannot move himself from that spot". There is still no implication that another character may not pick up said paralyzed character and move him elsewhere.
One problem with basing this argument on the fact that Fly is a Dex-based skill is you run into situations like my Irori-worshipping character who has the Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) trait and treats the skill as Wis-based. That wouldn't keep Fly from being a Dex-based skill. It just allows you to use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier.
Fair enough. I think the fact that the paralyzed condition gives you an effective Str of 0 is the real kicker to prevent a paralyzed creature from using the fly spell. A creature with Str 0 cannot even lift its own body weight (let alone any equipment), so the moment it became paralyzed the fly spell would be incapable of carrying it aloft.
Frozen in mid air would be granting the ability to hover which doesn't make sense so I would rule to continue to move in the direction you last moved in, in an uncontrolled manner until you hit something and stop. You'd then be butting up against that surface until freed from the paralysis.
If you weren't moving then you'd drift 5ft each round in the rough direction you were facing.
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Fair enough. I think the fact that the paralyzed condition gives you an effective Str of 0 is the real kicker to prevent a paralyzed creature from using the fly spell. A creature with Str 0 cannot even lift its own body weight (let alone any equipment), so the moment it became paralyzed the fly spell would be incapable of carrying it aloft.
One problem with basing this argument on the fact that Fly is a Dex-based skill is you run into situations like my Irori-worshipping character who has the Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) trait and treats the skill as Wis-based. That wouldn't keep Fly from being a Dex-based skill. It just allows you to use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier.
I don`t believe you count your characters weight towards your own encumbrance, do you? But still, it's a moot point unless you're stark naked.
I don`t believe you count your characters weight towards your own encumbrance, do you? But still, it's a moot point unless you're stark naked.
Sorry, that wasn't the clearest... I was trying to point out two things at once and they got jumbled together. PRD states a character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way, which the fly spell says nothing about superceding. Secondly, a creature with Str 0 has an effective max load of 0, so it could not carry anything aloft with fly.
Yes, works. How thought create move action? Lorentz transformation for understand paralyzed flying mage stationary while Golarion moves by.
Knowledge (Local) check for Lorentz transformation. Fail it move wrong direction and speed. Bonus on check for Impossible Bloodline sorcerer.
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Bonus fun find reading RAW literally and ignoring idiom...
"The creature is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless."
Frozen.
So now you're a statue made of ice. Ice has 3 hp per inch of thickness. I'm 9" thick. So I'd have 27 hit points and hardness 0.
At low level that's good. At high level, that's one hit from destroyed.
Let's remember that next time we're playing paralysis using the literal interpretation devoid of context. No coup de grace required... just a hit.
"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
You can't act. So you can't take a Move Action.
Paralysis doesn't block all actions. Just physical ones. Otherwise, Still Spell would be useless. ;D
I don't think the subtleties of Paralysis really have relevance here. I think the real, ultimate question here is about Fly. Is maintaining magical flight a purely mental action? If so, it's fine. If not, it ain't.
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Sorry, that wasn't the clearest... I was trying to point out two things at once and they got jumbled together. PRD states a character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way, which the fly spell says nothing about superceding. Secondly, a creature with Str 0 has an effective max load of 0, so it could not carry anything aloft with fly.
WAIT!
WRoy just won the thread.
I'm not kidding. I was just reading this and decided to look for those three key words: "in any way", just to see if (s)he was being... creative. Not important, but WRoy was quoting what written but didn't complete the quote.
I present... THE ANSWER:
"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And. Is. Unconscious.
Sorry, no purely mental actions allowed; you're unconscious.
It's an oversight in the conversion from 3.5e to Pathfinder. In 3.5e, the details for Strength 0 were: "A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless." That didn't include unconscious, so the paralyzed condition made sense as written: "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares."
So there we have it. Since Jason rewrote what happens when your Strength drops to 0, he negated a portion of the paralyzed condition, which moots the entire discussion. The text that permits purely mental actions should be stricken from the rules as it cannot possibly apply, with the possible exception of any rare creature that cannot be made unconscious.
Can you fly while paralyzed? No.
I present... THE ANSWER:"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And. Is. Unconscious.
The paralyzed condition specifically states you can take mental actions, so it overrides the more general rule that dropping to Str 0 makes you unconscious. That's why I didn't quote the entire sentence.
Edit: Shh, go back to the trolling half of this thread (sentence error fixed). :P
So people affected by Hold Person are also rendered unconscious?
I don't...thiiiink that's how the rules are intended...
Someone should go over all the rules and rewrite them as if done by somebody who speaks terrible English. So, Hold Person turns people into blocks of ice, clerics use the supernatural powers of ocean currents...
I present... THE ANSWER:"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And. Is. Unconscious.
The paralyzed condition specifically states you can take mental actions, so it overrides the more general rule that dropping to Str 0 makes you unconscious. That's why I didn't quote the entire sentence.
Edit: Shh, go back to the trolling half of this thread (sentence error fixed). :P
Sorry, no overriding here. You can take whatever mental actions available to you while unconscious, such as... dreaming. No conflict.
Someone should go over all the rules and rewrite them as if done by somebody who speaks terrible English. So, Hold Person turns people into blocks of ice, clerics use the supernatural powers of ocean currents...
Me cleric offers gift of sacred percussion discs to cause water flow between two larger bodies of water.
Me paladin recline on fingers as brief activity to mediate problem with self.
Me wizard toss magic effect against enemy consent rescue.
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Sorry, that wasn't the clearest... I was trying to point out two things at once and they got jumbled together. PRD states a character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way, which the fly spell says nothing about superceding. Secondly, a creature with Str 0 has an effective max load of 0, so it could not carry anything aloft with fly.WAIT!
WRoy just won the thread.
I'm not kidding. I was just reading this and decided to look for those three key words: "in any way", just to see if (s)he was being... creative. Not important, but WRoy was quoting what written but didn't complete the quote.
I present... THE ANSWER:
"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And. Is. Unconscious.
Sorry, no purely mental actions allowed; you're unconscious.
It's an oversight in the conversion from 3.5e to Pathfinder. In 3.5e, the details for Strength 0 were: "A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless." That didn't include unconscious, so the paralyzed condition made sense as written: "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares."
So there we have it. Since Jason rewrote what happens when your Strength drops to 0, he negated a portion of the paralyzed condition, which moots the entire discussion. The text that permits purely mental actions should be stricken from the rules as it cannot possibly apply, with the possible exception of any rare creature that cannot be made unconscious.
Can you fly while...
One thing to keep in mind: paralyzed gives you an effective strength score of 0; it doesn't actually change your strength score to 0. Nor has your strength been drained or damaged to 0. So, no, you are not unconscious.
