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Simple question.
Character has the fly spell active on their person.
Said character becomes paralyzed.
Can they use a withdraw action to fly away?
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Question rephrased: Is controlling your flight via a fly spell a purely mental action ?
From the description of "paralyzed": A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.
The implication is that a creature flying without needing wings is not affected and does not fall. On the other hand, controlled flight is clearly not purely mental (you're moving). So, basically, you hover in place.
"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
You can't act. So you can't take a Move Action.
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Yes, you can move through space under a fly spell while paralyzed.
The paralyzed condition says you cannot move or act. It goes on to say you can take purely mental action.
The fly spell says it takes as much concentration as walking. This refers to the need of some spells that require concentration, which in itself is a standard action. So, the fact that it refers to walking shouldn't be seen as really having to do with movement per se.
Magical flight generally is assumed to not require physical activity by most people. In other words, control of the spell seems to be a solely mental activity. The prohibition on moving in the paralyzed condition reasonably refers to physical motions of the body, not the game term related to movement through space.
So, you can move through physical space solely by mental action.
Edit: cleaned up auto correct error and edited brain-o to "...solely mental activity..."
Mental actions generally speaking are not defines anywhere. When paralyzed how many move actions can you take?
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"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
You can't act. So you can't take a Move Action.
This is taken out of context. The condition goes on to say you can take solely mental actions. You could, for example, use a standard action to continue concentrating on a spell, or to cast a spell that did not require components or only required material components that were already in hand.
Interesting point, Howie. But the fly spell has V/S/M components and thus requires somatic motion.
It never states that the somatic portion of the spell is no longer needed once you are flying - only that it requires minor concentration.
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The casting requirements, such as somatic, are not extending to the duration. When you cast mage armor are you waving your hands and murming arcane words for hours at a time?
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Interesting point, Howie. But the fly spell has V/S/M components and thus requires somatic motion.
It never states that the somatic portion of the spell is no longer needed once you are flying - only that it requires minor concentration.
It also never states that the fly spell requires you to take off all your clothing and therefore can only be done while naked, or that it requires you to make "vroom vroom" noises with your lips and therefore you can't cast other spells while flying, or that you can only fly with your eyes closed and hence everything has total concealment to you.
There's a reason for this. None of these restrictions actually exist. Components are needed to cast the spell, not to maintain it.
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Spell components strictly are aspects of generating the spell effect at the time of casting, not for controlling the spell after it is cast.
Without confirming specific components for another spell, if bull strength has a somantic component, would you expect that the caster, much less the recipient, had to make said movements through out its duration? I thing it might make for an amusing aspect of the game, but it would be a different game. Fun to play at midnight of a convention. A great in-game special magical zone effect, etc. but, this isn't part of the standard game's ruleset.
Spell components strictly are aspects of generating the spell effect at the time of casting, not for controlling the spell after it is cast.
I can dig it. I concede the point.
Do we have a RAW definition of what qualifies as a "purely mental action"?
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What is walking? It's movement. If you're paralyzed you can't do ANY form of movement, you're essentially shut down from any voluntary physical action. If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.Yes, you can move through space under a fly spell while paralyzed.
The paralyzed condition says you cannot move or act. It goes on to say you can take purely mental action.
The fly spell says it takes as much concentration as walking. This refers to the need of some spells that require concentration, which in itself is a standard action. So, the fact that it refers to walking shouldn't be seen as really having to do with movement per se.
I disagree. My argument was in the paragraph immediately after the section you cited.
What is walking? It's movement. If you're paralyzed you can't do ANY form of movement, you're essentially shut down from any voluntary physical action.
But the mention of walking in the fly spell doesn't say anything about using a fly spell being as physical as walking. It only addresses the concentration required.
If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.
Even in this case, a voluntarily flying (via the fly spell) creature can't power-dive for more than twice his speed, so how can the paralyzed flying creature go faster than that ? If anything, I'd think an undirected fly spell would behave as if it was failing.
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If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.
I'm not convinced that this is the intent and it's certainly not what's written.
Magical flight is not called out at all, only winged flight.
The omission may be by design.
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I would say "no"
Paralyzed specifically calls out can not move
Fly does not specifically identify "is a purely mental action"
so barring an FAQ, I'd rule against it.
I would rule a paralyzed creature with magical flight frozen and unable to move, but not falling. There is nothing to suggest that flying is a purely mental action. The fact that it doesn't say that flying isn't purely mental doesn't mean that it is.
Edit: I suppose I wouldn't argue if I was at a table and the GM ruled that you fall when paralyzed. The fly skill does say you have to move half your speed when flying or make a Fly check.
You cannot fly while paralyzed. The fly skill is dexterity based, which means that using it requires physical movement to use. I would rule that a character in that situation hovers in place, subject to winds, etc.
But even hovering requires a Fly check. I'd rule that a paralyzed person automatically fails all Fly checks, however nowhere in the Fly skill does it specify what happens when you fail a Fly check (unless you're using wings).
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You cannot fly while paralyzed. The fly skill is dexterity based, which means that using it requires physical movement to use. I would rule that a character in that situation hovers in place, subject to winds, etc.
The Fly skill is Dexterity based. The fly spell is not. You can use the fly spell without having ranks in the Fly skill. The Fly skill only comes into play when performing complex manouvers. If doing so when paralyzed, you would use your modified Dex score of 0, as defined in the Paralyzed section.
Edit: the statement that a Dex based skill requires physical movement is false. It often does, but not always. It also is defined as involving reflexes. When dealing with magical flight, the Dex based element can be seen as the reflex or reaction to the conditions of flight, to judging distances and the like, all while staying within the non physical movement realm.
You do not fall nor do u move while paralyzed. U are literally stuck in the air as a huge target.
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Question rephrased: Is controlling your flight via a fly spell a purely mental action ?
This is the key question; clearly some of you think that the answer is 'no', I tend to go with 'yes'.
It is unclear from the spell description, so the correct answer is 'whatever your GM says' in the game you are playing.
PS I seem to remember an older edition (1st?) version of a fly spell where the caster controlled the flight, not the recipient. That had to be purely mental because it wasn't even necesarily the same body! But it was a long time ago and might have been somebody's house rule.
This is taken out of context. The condition goes on to say you can take solely mental actions. You could, for example, use a standard action to continue concentrating on a spell, or to cast a spell that did not require components or only required material components that were already in hand."A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
You can't act. So you can't take a Move Action.
it also say you can not move. Flying is movement.
The way I would look at this is if you make it a rule that when someone is paralyzed the cease being able to stand, then yes, a flying person/creature that doesn't use wing should fall. If you rule that a paralyzed person can continue to stand (still using muscles even to stand, which requires mental effort, not much, but it still takes slight, constant adjustments of muscle to remain upright), then I'd rule that the flying creature could remain where they were when paralyzed(the spell still takes minor concentration to keep active, which keeps you afloat, but anything further would require greater control, or you would spin, yaw, pitch, etc, and basically have no control), floating in the air like a giant, colorful pinata/pincushion.
as an example: if someone grabbed the paralyzed person and flung them along a sheet of ice, they'd have zero control of where they went, or spun or tumbled. They wouldn't be moving on their own, and the only way they gain impetus is through an outside agent. The flying guy is much the same. At the mercy of outside forces that could push them (far more easily than the grounded person) pretty much wherever they wanted. Lasso the person and you'd have yourself a mage-balloon. ;)
Andreww has the right of it. Can't move means can't make Fly checks, which means no hovering and a fall to the ground.
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no where in the spell does it mention needing to make checks to remain in the air. And paralysis does not counter the spell, only end of duration, antimagic or dispel magic can end or suppress the effect. Only winged creatures are called out as needing to make fly checks to hover. So you would stay there in the air not moving but not falling either.
I'm not convinced that this is the intent and it's certainly not what's written.
Magical flight is not called out at all, only winged flight.
The omission may be by design.
It may -- but it sure would be nice if it were explicit. :(
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What is walking? It's movement. If you're paralyzed you can't do ANY form of movement, you're essentially shut down from any voluntary physical action. If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.
Walking requires a creature to cause their limbs to move, relative to one another. And you know it. A paralyzed creature is not immobile or immovable. They are simply unable to cause their body (parts) to move.
A paralyzed creature could cast a silent dimension door, which would have no somatic (movement) components and no verbal (lip movement) components. Because they did not move their body, they have not violated the restrictions of the paralyzed condition. And yet... lo and behold... said caster somehow becomes located at a different place. They have... MOVED.
Is this not entirely sensible? The creature did not move themselves... the magic of the dimension door spell performed the movement. Same as commanding an unseen servant to tip you over or wiggling your fingers (assuming you had a telepathic link with such).
The fly spell imparts a mode of flight which is not dependent on physical motion. No flapping of the arms. You just magically... fly.
So do.
Normal creatures have no ability to move while paralyzed, which is why the condition is written the way it is. But given the entire world is rotating, it's pretty darned obvious the condition does not confer a lack of ability for one afflicted to move.
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it also say you can not move. Flying is movement.
In some terms. For instance for purposes of provoking attacks of opportunity, using a fly speed is movement. But in terms of a creature who is paralyzed? That's kind of a stretch.
Let's imagine - and I know I'm extrapolating - that the paralyzed condition said "you cannot move your body parts". That would be utterly and completely in line with what we real-world folk know of as paralysis, yes? And it wouldn't conflict with brutally obvious real-world realities such as... oh... let's say...
That's right. I went there.
Nothing about paralysis says that your lungs stop working. And yet... your chest is moving.
OMGWTFBBQPONIES111
Oh. That's right. We all get it. We all know what paralysis means, and what the condition clearly confers. You lose voluntary control over your muscles. That's it. That's all. That is the result of paralysis, in the real world and in the game world. Why? Because it doesn't even imply that a paralyzed creature starts to suffocate.
Bonus fun: your heart doesn't stop when you're paralyzed.
So. Now that we've washed away the interpretation that says a paralyzed creature becomes unable to "move" in the sense of "be relocated in part or in whole", what are we left with that conflicts with the idea that a magic fly spell can be mentally directed to lift, swoop, and generally cavort in the air?
I don't mean to play the "it's magic" card but:
a} IT IS and
b} there is no b.
By being magic, it is nonphysical. The source of flight motion isn't physical.
Purely mental simply means lacking-physicality. This qualifies.*
*UNLESS you've got a GM who has elected to make their flying casters flap their arms, in which case the (always-to-be-encouraged) world-building supersedes the actual rules.
Yes you are. paralyzed means that you can't make voluntary motions, nothing in that condition prevents falling, drowning, being tossed over the side, or being carried away like a sack of potatoes.He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.Am I the only one who reads this part and thinks that being paralyzed means that you can neither move nor be moved? Taken very literally, this means that your friends couldn't even pick you up and carry you away; no way does Fly work in this scenario.While your interpretation of paralysis is totally reasonable, and in fact is what I'd have assumed before reading the RAW on the condition, I don't see any other interpretation that is in accordance with the RAW.
A paralyzed character cannot moveThis doesn't say anything about the movement being voluntary. Common sense and an understanding of paralysis in the real world certainly suggest that ought to be the case, but there's nothing here to suggest it, so we suspend judgment.
He is rooted to the spotA bag of potatoes isn't "rooted to the spot", which is part of the reason you can carry a bag of potatoes. This sounds more like what Anchoring does, except that it doesn't say that you can overcome it as you can overcome Anchoring.
Not even friends can move his limbsOne might take this to mean "relative to his body", but that's not the only valid interpretation. I suppose the literal interpretation means you'd still be allowed to move his torso... I leave the visuals to the imagination on this one.
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.An apparent contradiction. The creature is paralyzed and it moves. However, one could argue that this is just another instance of a specific rule overriding a general rule. In general, paralyzed creatures do not move. That winged creatures fall is the only named exception.
Two possible interpretations, one following all the rules of common sense and one resulting in a completely nonsensical outcome. Which to choose, which to choose? Man I hate having to make decisions like this...
Note: By RAW, the note about possibly drowning if swimming seems redundant. Since you can't move, I'd rule that you suffocate if you're paralyzed longer than you can hold your breath... and you only drown inasmuch as, while paralyzed, you allow water into your lungs which you'd need to expel before being able to breathe again.
Well if you use your proposed alternate possibility of meaning here wouldn't that entirely depend on if their head was above water at the time of paralysis? If so they CAN'T sink because their body cannot be moved.
My two cents -
If paralyzed while under the flight spell, the being under the flight spell can still mentally direct their flight path. The being's body is still paralyzed, which may have serious penalties if doing anything except for hovering (where was the being's head directed to when paralyzed?). As only mental actions can be taken, it's not as if the flying being can do anything more than bump into things, or cast spells that don't require components (material, verbal, somatic, etc.).
Involuntary actions still occur (you can still see, hear, heart and lungs work, and so on).
The big question, if the PC was holding something tight and someone else tried to pry it free, would it be possible to free the item from the paralyzed being's grasp?
RAW - no
RAI - not a mind reader there
My take on it - I would rule that some sort of strength check would be needed, and the paralyzed being's limbs / fingers would snap back to tight grasping if the object was freed.
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^ In my posts, I basically suggest all of the stuff you dismiss:
1. Being paralyzed means you don't breathe. Breathing requires movement, and you can't do that.
2. Being paralyzed means you are immobilized; it says so (or at least heavily implies it) in the PRD, to the point of being almost unambiguously RAW.
3. Being paralyzed means you cannot be moved; it is heavily implied in the PRD, to the point of being almost unambiguously RAW.
4. Being paralyzed means you cannot cause to be moved; this one requires a little straining, but who's to say that "move" is meant in the intransitive sense in the rules? "I can't move" almost always means that you can't move yourself, but there's nothing preventing it from meaning that you are unable to move (other stuff).My justification: a boring and straightforward interpretation of what is admittedly a pretty ambiguous description of the condition which is apparently at odds with what we mean by "paralysis" IRL. Please let me know if you'd like more of the in-depth analysis, but how paralysis interacts with telepathy in general (especially when applied to the self) is interesting and not clearly defined in the rules, as far as I can tell.
That's all an unacceptable (to me) reading of the RAW. I get it that the English language in general and Pathfinder in particular reuses words in multiple contexts. Synonyms, yeah?
To read that extensively into "cannot move" dictating immediate fatality... why then did the developers bother writing remove paralysis?
They did so because their understanding of "cannot move" does not contain an inability to breathe, or an inability to pump blood, or that the victim of paralysis is (if lucky) left behind by Golarion's orbital motion or (if unlucky) forced through the surface of the ground at 107,200 kilometers per hour (assuming Golarion's rotation around its sun is equivalent to Earth's around ours).
No. The developers thought "hey, paralysis is like a person who's got upper spinal damage, only it gets their face too". And they wrote their language using words that were clear to them. They even included some bonus text about being allowed to take purely mental actions, which you kinda sorta can't do if you're suffocating while having a heart attack in orbit. Oh, and the electrons in your brain stopped because y'know, they're a part of you and you can't move 'em.
In fact, yeah, if the electrons can't orbit their protons, technically the entire state of matter that your body was composed of ceases being what it was, with completely unique properties.
Or is it more likely "cannot move" was intended to have an implied "voluntarily" and "your muscles"? Like say... a paralyzed person.
See, under general anesthesia, I "can't move", which fits both the rules and the description of "paralysis". I find it a really weird stretch to - having found a reading that makes sense - assume Pathfinder instead implies a bunch of other immediately fatal side-effects.
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You don't need to make Fly checks as long as you stay at half your fly speed or above. So do.
If you must hover, well, you have a Dex of 0 so suffer a -5 penalty to Fly checks. Given fly gives you perfect maneuverability, you get a +8 bonus to Fly checks. Core does NOT say you can't use Dex skills while at 0 Dexterity. So your Fly DC 15 check works out to needing to roll a 12, assuming you have no ranks or other bonuses to Fly. 60/40.
But again, paralyzed sets your Dex to 0, and Core says "A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
So, effectively immobile. Not actually immobile. Good thing you've got a spell up and running that addresses that.
I would say "no"
Paralyzed specifically calls out can not move
Fly does not specifically identify "is a purely mental action"so barring an FAQ, I'd rule against it.
This is my concern with this interpretation: by this definition, all ongoing spells would cease to function which had been cast by the now-paralyzed character.
no where in the spell does it mention needing to make checks to remain in the air. And paralysis does not counter the spell, only end of duration, antimagic or dispel magic can end or suppress the effect. Only winged creatures are called out as needing to make fly checks to hover. So you would stay there in the air not moving but not falling either.It doesn't have to be in the spell. Universal Fly Rules say you need to either move at half speed or make hover checks to stay in the air. The spell does not put any specific overrides on the general rules for flight other than giving you a bonus to Fly Checks. If you are paralyzed you can't make move actions, which means you can't fulfill either of the conditions needed to remain airborne. Hence your further movements become determined by gravity.
I can run with this, though.
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inability to pump blood, or that the victim of paralysis is (if lucky) left behind by Golarion's orbital motion or (if unlucky) forced through the surface of the ground at 107,200 kilometers per hour (assuming Golarion's rotation around its sun is equivalent to Earth's around ours).
Oh, and the electrons in your brain stopped because y'know, they're a part of you and you can't move 'em.
I am going to be incorporating this interpretation of paralysis into all my upcoming games. Bring on the ghouls! Muahaha.
Yes you are. paralyzed means that you can't make voluntary motions, nothing in that condition prevents falling, put in a hole, drowning, being tossed over the side, or being carried away like a sack of potatoes.He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.Am I the only one who reads this part and thinks that being paralyzed means that you can neither move nor be moved? Taken very literally, this means that your friends couldn't even pick you up and carry you away; no way does Fly work in this scenario.
it does say rooted to the spot