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So, one of my blog followers asked if I'd be willing to take up a new project, make characters of Arthurian Legend in Pathfinder. Seems like a pretty daunting task, since the cast is quite expansive. But, I'm trying to figure out how to tackle all of this? Some are a lot easier than others, plus I have TONS of resources to choose from (Pendragon, AD&D Legends & Lore, D20 books) but, it's just a matter of building something that feels right.
For example, what classes and specialized weapons would the Knights of the Round Table use? I guess Paladin is an easy choice (Mordred being an Anti-Paladin or some equivalent), with some levels in fighter, monk, or ranger perhaps... Morgan and Merlin are obvious some sort of arcane caster, Morgan would probably be some mix of Sorcerer, Witch, and Druid; while Merlin would be some mix of Wizard, Druid, and possibly Witch or Magus (Hey, some interpretations would argue this)
But, since these are legendary heroes (as statted in most of the source material), would it make sense to make them Mythic as well? Less trained knights and characters like Sir Galahad (son of Lancelot) are probably better teetering on accessing Mythic, but... I dunno.
But, enough rambling out of me! Does anyone have any ideas?
It truly depends on how you want the campaign they are in to portray them..
is it gritty Arthur movie style with sarmatian knights, or Excalibur movie style with stainless steel armor and epic music.
Me, I would go full mythic on this project, embrace the myths and make the characters full on heros, and villains of mythic status.
Or even take a different bent on it and transpose the races and roles a bit, and do a full on fantasy-ized version, maybe Arthur IS a gold dragon king, and lancelot is a son of a god of valor, and gwen is actually a succubus..:)
Or the whole cast is elves..or dwarves, or a crazy mix of races.
But hey this sounds fun, I will happily read and contribute.
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Most of the Knights of the Round Table, Arthur included, should be either Cavaliers (Order of either the Dragon or the Lion) or Fighters. Those that are mentioned as being champions in the joust or with the lance would be Cavaliers, while others (like Kay) would be Fighters. Only a select few would be Paladins, as their holy talents were miraculous, not commonplace. Lancelot, Galahad, and Percival are the obvious choices for this.
Mordred is NOT an anti-paladin, but a Cavalier of the Cockatrice. He had no magic his aunt didn't give him as a boon, and was a war-leader and fairly good tactician.
Merlin should properly be a druid, except that wild-shaping doesn't show up in the stories much (Disney's Sword in the Stone notwithstanding). Nimue and Vivienne (the Ladies of the Lake) would be Sorcerors with the Fey bloodline, and Morgan is definitely a witch. Many stories say that she dallied with strange and unknowable forces from either the Faerielands or from Hell, and Witches cover that part of the story very nicely with their familiars.
I'm planning on staying pretty much true to the myths, while maintaining an epic factor. But, should every character have a mythic tier?
Plus, I can't decide to give Guinevere a bard class, converted Noble class (like from Dragonlance) or NPC class... So many decisions!
And in terms of D&D fantasy, I'm probably going to avoid that. Sure, magic is everywhere and monsters lurk outside of Camelot, but I figure the "core non-human" races would probably keep to themselves for the most part.
Most of the Knights of the Round Table, Arthur included, should be either Cavaliers (Order of either the Dragon or the Lion) or Fighters. Those that are mentioned as being champions in the joust or with the lance would be Cavaliers, while others (like Kay) would be Fighters. Only a select few would be Paladins, as their holy talents were miraculous, not commonplace. Lancelot, Galahad, and Percival are the obvious choices for this.
Mordred is NOT an anti-paladin, but a Cavalier of the Cockatrice. He had no magic his aunt didn't give him as a boon, and was a war-leader and fairly good tactician.
Merlin should properly be a druid, except that wild-shaping doesn't show up in the stories much (Disney's Sword in the Stone notwithstanding). Nimue and Vivienne (the Ladies of the Lake) would be Sorcerors with the Fey bloodline, and Morgan is definitely a witch. Many stories say that she dallied with strange and unknowable forces from either the Faerielands or from Hell, and Witches cover that part of the story very nicely with their familiars.
This helps me out quite a bit with ideas! Many thanks! Once I finish this thing, (however long that will take,) I might consider doing an Arthurian campaign.
Its a mythic tale, so why not, seems like the perfect setting to make use of all the cool mythic feats and such, and since its basically going to be a human only show, would add some variety to the mix.
Toss a lot of multiclassed knights in there, don't be to slavish to the various interpretations of each character, and have some fun with the concepts.
Sprinkle a lot of archtypes to make the individuals interesting, and make the good, very good, and the evil, very evil.
Throw some monkey wrenchs in there too, maybe Guinevere was secretly a spell caster of some sort, or decided to fight along side her husband..I guess what I am saying here is make it your own, and you will have a lot more fun with it.
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Bleh, I've been away from this for too long. So, I have two knights created so far. Galahad and Lancelot... Granted, Lancelot was building off of what I made for Galahad. I dunno if screwed up the Mythic stuff (because I don't really get that system quite yet.)
Sir Galahad CR 16/MR 3 XP 204800
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Paladin (Oath of Loyalty) 16/Guardian 2
Init +1; Senses Normal; Perception +10
Aura Good, Resolve 10 ft., Courage 10 ft., Justice 10 ft., Faith 10 ft.
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, +4 Master Shield, +1 Dodge, +7 Armor)
hp 204 (16d10+90)
Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +12
Immunities Diseases, Charm, Fear
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft. (Armor)
Melee mace +20/+15/+10 (1d8+4/18-20,x2)
Paladin Spell List (CL 16, Concentration +18)
(DC 13) 1 – Bless, Protection from Evil, Tactical Acumen, Wrath
(DC 14) 2 – Aid, Paladin’s Sacrifice, Resist Energy
(DC 15) 3 – Cure Moderate Wounds, Helping Hand
(DC 16) 4 – Sending
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +16; CMB +22; CMD 33
Feats - Power Attack, Furious Focus, Mounted Combat, Mounted Skirmisher, Toughness, Shield Focus, Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave
Mythic Feats – Extra Path Ability (Add. Call), Mythic Dodge (Expend one Power to get +10 Dodge bonus to attack), Mythic Shield Focus (Shield + Feat bonus to touch)
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Climb +10, Diplomacy +15, Handle Animal +14, Knowledge (nobility) +15, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +10, Profession +12, Ride +10, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +10
Languages English
SQ Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Loyal Oath, Loyal Guardian, Lay on hands, Divine grace, divine health, mercy, Channel positive energy, Divine bond (Divine Horse mount)
Mythic Abilities – Hard to Kill, Mythic Power (5/Day), Surge 1d6, Amazing Initiative, Recuperation, Guardian’s Call, Armor Master 1, Armor Master 2, Armor Master 3
Traits – Defensive Strategist
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Loyal Oath (Su)
Galahad has chosen an oath of loyalty to King Arthur of Camelot. When the paladin is adjacent to King Arthur, she grants him a +2 sacred bonus on saving throws and to Armor Class (equal to Charisma.) The loyal oath lasts 1 minute, or until Galahad dismisses it (a free action) or discharges it (see below), whichever comes first.
If Arthur is struck by an enemy and Galahad is adjacent to that enemy, as an immediate action he may make a single melee attack against that enemy; making this attack ends the loyal oath. Galahad may declare and reclaim oath 6 times per day.
Loyal Guardian (Su)
At 8th level, whenever Arthur is hit with a melee or ranged attack, if Galahad is adjacent to the target, he can spend an immediate action to have the attack automatically hit him instead of the intended target. This ends that loyal oath.
Absorb Blow (Su)
As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon’s breath, a s p ell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents , for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistance s that you have.
Empathic Healing (Su)
You can expend one use of mythic power to transfer up to 10 points of damage per tier from a touched ally to yourself, healing the target and damaging you. This transferred damage bypasses all effects that reduce or negate hit point damage (such as damage reduction). Alternatively, you can expend two uses of mythic power to transfer an ongoing disease or poison from a touched ally to yourself, which halts ongoing effects on the target from that affliction and requires you to attempt any remaining saves against it. If you’re immune to the disease or poison, transferring it to yourself destroys the affliction.
Sir Lancelot CR 20/MR 5 XP 307,200
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Paladin (Divine Defender) 18/Guardian 5
Init +1; Senses Normal; Perception +12
Aura Good, Resolve 10 ft., Courage 10 ft., Justice 10 ft., Faith 10 ft., Righteousness 10 ft.
DR 5/ Evil, Epic
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DEFENSE
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+2 Dex, +4 Master Shield, +1 Dodge, +7 Armor)
hp 204 (18d10+100)
Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +13
Immunities Diseases, Charm, Fear, Compulsion
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft. (Armor)
Melee longsword +23/+16/+11 (1d8+3/19-20,x2)
Paladin Spell List (CL 18, Concentration +20)
(DC 14) 1 – Bless, Protection from Evil, Tactical Acumen, Wrath
(DC 15) 2 – Aid, Paladin’s Sacrifice, Resist Energy
(DC 16) 3 – Cure Moderate Wounds, Helping Hand, Prayer
(DC 17) 4 – Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Chaos
SA – Smite Evil 6/Day (+3 Attack, +18 Damage against Evil targets; double damage for outsiders/dragons/other related)
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STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16
Base Atk +18; CMB +22; CMD 33
Feats - Power Attack, Furious Focus, Mounted Combat, Mounted Skirmisher, Toughness, Shield Focus, Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave
Mythic Feats – Extra Path Ability (Add. Call), Mythic Dodge (Expend one Power to get +10 Dodge bonus to attack), Mythic Shield Focus (Shield + Feat bonus to touch)
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Climb +11, Diplomacy +16, Handle Animal +16, Knowledge (nobility) +16, Knowledge (religion) +12, Perception +12, Profession +13, Ride +11, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +10
Languages English
SQ Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Lay on hands, Divine grace, divine health, Channel positive energy, Divine bond (Divine Armor)
Mythic Abilities – Hard to Kill, Mythic Power (13/Day), Surge 1d8, Amazing Initiative, Recuperation, Guardian’s Call, Mythic Saves,
Traits – Defensive Strategist
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Sudden Block (Su)
As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to hinder a melee attack made against you or an adjacent ally. Add your tier to your AC or the ally’s AC against this attack. The creature making the attack must make two attack rolls and take the lower result. Once the attack is resolved, you or your ally (your choice) can make one melee attack against the creature. The damage from this attack bypasses all damage reduction.
Avenging Maneuver (Ex)
Taking grievous wounds only empowers you. Any creature that confirms a critical hit with a melee attack against you provokes an attack of opportunity from you. You can use this attack of opportunity only to attempt a bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver check. You don’t provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting this combat maneuver check.
Shared Defense (Su)
The Divine Defender can expend one of their Lay on Hands ability as an action to grant all allies within 20 ft a +3 bonus to AC, CMD, and Saving Throws for 3 rounds. This stabilizes unconscious allies, grants immunity to bleed damage, and gives a 25% chance to negate sneak attacks and critical hits scored against them. This ability does not stack with the chance provided from the light, medium, or heavy fortification armor special abilities. These bonuses are cumulative with each other. Allies only benefit from these bonuses while in the listed area.
Drive Back (Ex)
As a full-round action, you can attempt one bull rush combat maneuver check and apply it to all opponents within reach. If you have the Whirlwind Attack feat, you can use this ability at the same time that you make an attack against each foe within reach, allowing you to attempt a free bull rush combat maneuver check against each foe that you hit.
After you’ve pushed opponents backward, you may move with any one of your bull rush targets.
Turn the Tables (Ex)
If a creature fails a combat maneuver check made against you, as an immediate action you can expend one use of mythic power to attempt that same maneuver against that creature. You receive a +10 bonus on this combat maneuver check.
Impervious Body (Su)
You gain DR 5/epic. This ability can be taken a second time at 6th tier or higher and a third time at 9th tier or higher. Each additional time it’s taken, the DR increases by 5.
Once I figure out even more mythic Arthuriana, I'll probably continue this.
This is looking nice!
Thanks! It's been a learning experience so far, and a fun one at that! Who knows, I might kitbash my end results with the Wrath of the Righteous AP? (Arthuriana and Demons? That's just silly!)
If your heroes are in need of any aid, I'd be HAPPY to help... for a nominal fee!
I see Merlin as a Tiefling Wizard (maybe Transmuter?)/Druid/Mystic Theurge.
Tristram as he appears in Le Morte d'Arthur is easily my favorite knight of the table round, and his two books are the best in terms of the development of characters and the overall story. However, I don't know that he would have any special abilities that other knights don't, other than that he should be second only to Lancelot in hand to hand combat.
Tristam is awesome, so I might cover him next. I was also considering Sir Gawain... partially because my sister is a fan of the BBC show from a couple years back and Gawain is pure awesome in that version and she asked me to cover him.
As for Merlin, I imagine an Oracle (Enlightened Philosopher) for some reason. I might consider tiefling for mechanics, but I might also stick with human...
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Tristram as he appears in Le Morte d'Arthur is easily my favorite knight of the table round, and his two books are the best in terms of the development of characters and the overall story. However, I don't know that he would have any special abilities that other knights don't, other than that he should be second only to Lancelot in hand to hand combat.
(I'm kind of an expert on this subject… Wrote "Lands of Tristram" for Pendragon but it went under with Green Knight.)
Tristram is multi-classed as a Ranger; he spends a lot of time hunting and hiding out in the wilderness - he lives in a cave with Isolt for a while. He's a skilled bard as well (this may reflect Celtic notions of heroism better than the behavior of his peers) He's much more deceptive, sarcastic, poetic, and secretive than either Lancelot or Gauvain. He is incredibly strong - he cut a knight and his horse in half with his sword - which is so heavy that when Charlemagne's paladins find it they have to have it shortened, and it becomes known as Cortana.
Gauvain (Gawain) is the third best knight - at least in Middle-English sources - after Lancelot and Tristram. He gains superhuman strength close to noon and returns to human levels as it sets. Not sure how to represent that. He is also perhaps the most empathic and considerate of the knights - to women in particular. Lancelot and Tristram are terrible lovers compared to him, but then Gauvain has a half-dozen girlfriends. He always keeps his word, even when it's a bad idea. He likes to befriend potential enemies rather than kill them.
Lancelot actually sometimes goes mad, and sometimes goes into a combat rage, like a barbarian or Cu Chulainn. He's not terribly charismatic - and is deeply introverted in the romances - particularly compared to Tristram. He sometimes kills people without asking enough questions.
Merlin in practice would be a sorcerer (he inherited his powers from his incubus father). He's skilled at illusion, teleportation, divination, and evocation. He has high Cha and Int.
Nimue is a skilled hunter as well as a magician, and she was taught magic by Merlin, rather than having it innately (though she may be based on the Irish goddess Niamh).
Morgan learned her magic from books (maybe wizard, but she has a witch-like spell list). She is skilled with illusion, curses, enchantment, and healing.
Other clearly mythic figures include Yder (who is based on a Celtic demigod), Yvain (son of Morgan, who has a lion as an animal companion), Gareth, Gauvain's little brother, who is essentially a reflex of Gawain's best traits, after Gawain is stained with murder, Palamedes, the Moorish knight (possibly the most honourable of all), and Galahad (basically a Paladin).
Thanks for the great inspiration for my next character creations! This is a lot to work with, but the more ideas the better.
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Tristram as he appears in Le Morte d'Arthur is easily my favorite knight of the table round, and his two books are the best in terms of the development of characters and the overall story. However, I don't know that he would have any special abilities that other knights don't, other than that he should be second only to Lancelot in hand to hand combat.(I'm kind of an expert on this subject… Wrote "Lands of Tristram" for Pendragon but it went under with Green Knight.)
Tristram is multi-classed as a Ranger; he spends a lot of time hunting and hiding out in the wilderness - he lives in a cave with Isolt for a while. He's a skilled bard as well (this may reflect Celtic notions of heroism better than the behavior of his peers) He's much more deceptive, sarcastic, poetic, and secretive than either Lancelot or Gauvain. He is incredibly strong - he cut a knight and his horse in half with his sword - which is so heavy that when Charlemagne's paladins find it they have to have it shortened, and it becomes known as Cortana.
Gauvain (Gawain) is the third best knight - at least in Middle-English sources - after Lancelot and Tristram. He gains superhuman strength close to noon and returns to human levels as it sets. Not sure how to represent that. He is also perhaps the most empathic and considerate of the knights - to women in particular. Lancelot and Tristram are terrible lovers compared to him, but then Gauvain has a half-dozen girlfriends. He always keeps his word, even when it's a bad idea. He likes to befriend potential enemies rather than kill them.
Lancelot actually sometimes goes mad, and sometimes goes into a combat rage, like a barbarian or Cu Chulainn. He's not terribly charismatic - and is deeply introverted in the romances - particularly compared to Tristram. He sometimes kills people without asking enough questions.
Merlin in practice would be a sorcerer (he inherited his powers from his incubus father). He's skilled at illusion, teleportation, divination, and...
What about Percival/Peredur?
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Percival is away, looking for a cup.
Percival is kind of an idiot savant - immensely capable in combat but clearly low in INT/WIS (poor memory, stupefied a lot, oblivious to social cues, gets lost in the woods a lot). Peredur is more of the "Great Fool" type from Celtic stories - able to outwit people by low cunning, sticking to the letter of the law (he's kind of a jerk), and bounteous luck. He starts out carrying javelins and later switches to knightly arms. It's as if an ogre was LG and convinced he was a paladin. In part this results from his foolishness in Chretien, which was extended ad nauseam by later writers. I think he was supposed to come to his senses, eventually, in Chretien's story. The Celtic version might be more interesting to encounter.
Tristram is multi-classed as a Ranger; he spends a lot of time hunting and hiding out in the wilderness - he lives in a cave with Isolt for a while. He's a skilled bard as well (this may reflect Celtic notions of heroism better than the behavior of his peers) He's much more deceptive, sarcastic, poetic, and secretive than either Lancelot or Gauvain. He is incredibly strong - he cut a knight and his horse in half with his sword - which is so heavy that when Charlemagne's paladins find it they have to have it shortened, and it becomes known as Cortana.Lancelot actually sometimes goes mad, and sometimes goes into a combat rage, like a barbarian or Cu Chulainn. He's not terribly charismatic - and is deeply introverted in the romances - particularly compared to Tristram. He sometimes kills people without asking enough questions...
...LOADS OF AWESOME INFORMATION
You're right on all counts. I forgot about Tristram's affinity for nature. Wasn't he into falconry? Also, he disguises himself quite a bit, and got depressed a lot. At first I thought the verbal abuse he took from the other knights about being from Cornwall was an odd inclusion in the story, but it made it all the sweeter when he stomped the crap out of some knight with a big mouth.
Tristram also has some other very interesting knights attached to his legend, such as the saracen Palamedes, who just refused to find his own girlfriend, and harassed Trsitram for years. And Dinadan his wise-cracking knight friend, the one who didn't give a damn about chivalry and protecting his honor, who would avoid any fight he could. He wasn't a legendary knight, but he had more depth of personality than most of them. As interesting and as varied a fellow as Odysseus. Loved that guy. "The joy of love is too brief; and the sorrow thereof, and what cometh thereof, dureth overlong".
Obviously Lancelot is the most famous of all of the knights, but you're right about him, and if you actually read the stories, he isn't always the shining example of knighthood that he is painted to be. He does some pretty bad stuff. If he actually is a paladin, he might have a punch card for his Atonement spells. His "virtue/honor/worship" is largely gained by being so huge and strong and deadly. If anyone wishes to question his honor, they fight, Lancelot splits his head, and Lancelot's honor is thereby kept impeccable. Maybe he has Favored Enemy: Human. This is actually making me think of The Hound in Game of Thrones. Lancelot is just really good at killing.
Gawain is portrayed quite differently by Malory. He really gets the shaft. He is portrayed as a powerful knight, but one who is surrounded by better knights, and looks weak in comparison. Also, all of his negative personality traits are spotlighted. Looking at his legends in Malory and outside of it (Gawain and the Green Giant being the most well known), they almost appear to be those of two different knights.
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The reason Gawain gets treated so badly - though Malory still admires him, as he blunted some of the worst of the French romances' misdeeds attributed to him - is that he was tarnished by his association with Mordred. In an inventive piece of re-working, the Grail cycle was integrated into the "historical" Arthur of Geoffrey of Monmouth by making the kin of Mordred responsible for the vendetta that nearly wipes out Perceval's family. The feud against Perceval's kin seems to be based on historical or early legendary material - in the Welsh Peredur the hero is seeking vengeance for the deaths of his kin, not the Grail per se, and the vengeance aspect of Perceval's quest is never wholly abandoned even in the verse romance. Instead of creating a whole villainous clan (like in Perlesvaus), the prose romances simply made the perpetuators Mordred and his brothers.
But Gawain was already by that point the chief English Arthurian hero, and it's possible this was a crude dig at the insular tradition. He retains his leading role in Chretien and in the verse romances. It's kind of a shame. To a certain degree, the link to Mordred even calumnies Arthur himself.
Mordred himself was probably a traitor from the beginning (at least since the 9th c). I could go into why, but I'm kind of saving it for a scholarly book I've been working on and off.
Indeed, these posts have been fun to read, Jeff Irwin. My own reading is limited to Malory and some odds and ends (plus a historical book), so kind of one-sided compared to yours. In my reading of Malory, I never had the impression that Gawain was tarnished by his association with Mordred, but rather his relation to the family of Arthur. In my eyes, over time there are these feuds developing and the lines begin to form. The deeds of Mordred (and others) combined with Gawain's loyalty to his family (the family of Arthur), turned Gawain into an asshat by being devoted to kin, against all wisdom and at the cost of his personal honor. I have to believe that because of Arthur's feud with Lancelot over Guinevere he had treat many of his old pals as enemies (like Lancelot). He is really shown in a terrible light in almost the whole book.
My posts aren't as clearly written as yours. Hope it made at least some sense!
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Indeed, these posts have been fun to read, Jeff Irwin. My own reading is limited to Malory and some odds and ends (plus a historical book), so kind of one-sided compared to yours. In my reading of Malory, I never had the impression that Gawain was tarnished by his association with Mordred, but rather his relation to the family of Arthur. In my eyes, over time there are these feuds developing and the lines begin to form. The deeds of Mordred (and others) combined with Gawain's loyalty to his family (the family of Arthur), turned Gawain into an asshat by being devoted to kin, against all wisdom and at the cost of his personal honor. I have to believe that because of Arthur's feud with Lancelot over Guinevere he had treat many of his old pals as enemies (like Lancelot). He is really shown in a terrible light in almost the whole book.
My posts aren't as clearly written as yours. Hope it made at least some sense!
Well, there is nothing seriously wrong with Arthur or his behavior (except for a certain amount of inactivity and lustfulness) in most of the major romances prior to the Post-Vulgate (c.1250) and the contemporary Perlesvaus (c.1240) (the Romance of Yder is a notable exception) - where Arthur becomes a stand-in for the failures of contemporary kings.
The Post-Vulgate adapts a tragic theme inherent in Geoffrey of Monmouth to "explain" the fall of the kingdom - but innovates by making Arthur himself a flawed ruler, and his flaws bring about its downfall, with Mordred simply being the agent of it. This provides a lot of the gravitas in Malory, who extensively borrowed from the Post-Vulgate. To a small degree, the prose Lancelot (c.1200) contributed by making Arthur unfaithful to Guinevere; but the chief change makes Mordred Arthur's illegitimate son. Prior to this he had been his nephew and Gawain's full brother. All of Gawain's bad deeds revolve around the P-V's feud with Perceval's family, which is entirely absent from earlier works; and in these deeds he is joined by Mordred and Agravaine.
The only hint of evil prior to the P-V was Gawain being accused of murder in Chretien's Conte du Graal, but he is cleared of the charge. One reason, perhaps, that Gawain is implicated is because Perceval's father Pellinor, and brothers Lamorak, Agloval and Tor are great knights, and Mordred and Agravaine, being cowards and fairly incompetent in the romances, are hardly up to the task of killing them alone, even in an ambush. The other reason, is that by connecting Arthur's misdeeds, mostly invented for this text, to Mordred, Gawain can hardly escape the implications: the whole Pendragon-Orkney line is accursed. The same work also makes Morgan into an outright villain (as hinted in the Lancelot), and plays up Merlin's diabolical ancestry, so Arthur's kin are also rendered darker. The Pendragon game tries to explain things by having Gawain bound by oath to avenge his father (killed by Pellinor) and protect his brothers.
In terms of Gawain's actions in the older Morte (the story of Lancelot's flight with Guinevere and Arthur's war with him), he acts there as a peacemaker, and only turns against Lancelot, one of his closest friends, after Lancelot kills the unarmed Gareth at the stake. Gareth is untainted - he takes no part in the murders of Perceval's family - and hence Lancelot's killing of him demands justice. But in the Morte, it is Lancelot and Guinevere - not Mordred, not Arthur - who are the vectors of tragedy and disaster. The P-V in its own way attempted to invert this, as the popular prose Lancelot exalted its hero above Arthur, and this was inconsistent with the Morte. The canon had to change, and Arthur had to take the blame.
It should be pointed out that the Post-Vulgate added a richer, classically tragic, feel to the saga without which we would be bereft of much good art and the story as we understand it. But in the process we lost a remarkable, thoughtful character who was a folk-hero to the English. It might be possible to depict the outlines of now canonical story, and present a heroic Gawain, but it would require him being cut from the scenes of ambush and treachery earlier in the story. I'd advocate doing this, as I think the authors of the P-V were perhaps so enamoured of their theme of corruption and sin that they lost track of the chivalry in the romance. You may want to consider how you wish to depict Arthur: Arthur's favourite nephew and heir is Gawain, so to an extent, they are heroic or flawed as a pair.
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PS.
To summarize: Arthur is, yes, a major reason why Gawain is tainted in Malory, but the reason Arthur himself is depicted as fallen or tyrannical is because Mordred needs a metaphysical rationale for his usurpation; he acts as the judgment of God. It's worth noting that Mordred is entirely absent from Chretien's romances, and there, Arthur, Gauvain, and even Morgan le Fay are all entirely good.
Perhaps you'll indulge me a bit longer. The story of Tristram is quite extensive, but at a certain point he exits the story when he dies, but without fanfare or explanation beyond "King Mark finally succeeded". I felt let down after becoming so attached to the character: brave Sir Tristram of Cornwall, doomed champion who endures without falling and eventually achieves what he dreamed of. Is there an account in another source that details his demise?
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Perhaps you'll indulge me a bit longer. The story of Tristram is quite extensive, but at a certain point he exits the story when he dies, but without fanfare or explanation beyond "King Mark finally succeeded". I felt let down after becoming so attached to the character: brave Sir Tristram of Cornwall, doomed champion who endures without falling and eventually achieves what he dreamed of. Is there an account in another source that details his demise?
Yes. It's called the Prose Tristan, and it's very long (Malory was adapting a version of it). There are two main versions in it of Tristan/Tristram's death.
(from memory)
In the older version, Tristan travels to Brittany, attempting to forget Isolt. Here he meets Duke Hoel and his daughter (also named Isolt). He defends Brittany from invaders or an usurper, and eventually marries the Breton Isolt. One day, adventuring with his brother-in-law, Kehedin (an early version of Dinadan), he is wounded in battle. His wife is unable to heal him, and he asks that Isolt of Cornwall come to help him, but the message is deliberately changed by his wife, so Isolt of Cornwall thinks she is to put black sails if she is coming on the return voyage. Seeing the black sails, Tristan thinks his lover has refused, and dies of grief. Isolt of Cornwall arrives, sees him dead, and kills herself or dies of sorrow.
In the more well known long version, Tristan leaves Brittany and returns to Britain, at the point where the "Val du Servage" episode occurs. Tristan has a lot of adventures, including after the Grail. He abandons the Grail Quest and returns to Cornwall, where he is discovered playing the harp in Isolt's chambers by Mark's other, evil, nephew Andred. Andred picks up a lance or glaive that had been enchanted by Morgan to kill the knight, and stabs him in the back. Isolt rushes to embrace the dying knight and the the dying spasm of the knight crushes her in his arms. They cannot be separated and are buried in a single grave by the grieving Mark. (In some versions, Mark, not Andred, does the dead).
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Perhaps you'll indulge me a bit longer. The story of Tristram is quite extensive, but at a certain point he exits the story when he dies, but without fanfare or explanation beyond "King Mark finally succeeded". I felt let down after becoming so attached to the character: brave Sir Tristram of Cornwall, doomed champion who endures without falling and eventually achieves what he dreamed of. Is there an account in another source that details his demise?Yes. It's called the Prose Tristan, and it's very long (Malory was adapting a version of it). There are two main versions in it of Tristan/Tristram's death.
(from memory)
In the older version, Tristan travels to Brittany, attempting to forget Isolt. Here he meets Duke Hoel and his daughter (also named Isolt). He defends Brittany from invaders or an usurper, and eventually marries the Breton Isolt. One day, adventuring with his brother-in-law, Kehedin (an early version of Dinadan), he is wounded in battle. His wife is unable to heal him, and he asks that Isolt of Cornwall come to help him, but the message is deliberately changed by his wife, so Isolt of Cornwall thinks she is to put black sails if she is coming on the return voyage. Seeing the black sails, Tristan thinks his lover has refused, and dies of grief. Isolt of Cornwall arrives, sees him dead, and kills herself or dies of sorrow.In the more well known long version, Tristan leaves Brittany and returns to Britain, at the point where the "Val du Servage" episode occurs. Tristan has a lot of adventures, including after the Grail. He abandons the Grail Quest and returns to Cornwall, where he is discovered playing the harp in Isolt's chambers by Mark's other, evil, nephew Andred. Andred picks up a lance or glaive that had been enchanted by Morgan to kill the knight, and stabs him in the back. Isolt rushes to embrace the dying knight and the the dying spasm of the knight crushes her in his arms. They cannot be separated and are buried in a single grave by the grieving...
And then Lyonesse sinks in to the sea.
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Contributor
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And then Lyonesse sinks in to the sea.
Actually that's one of the poetic touches of Greg Stafford in the Pendragon RPG; it's in a sense, based on Tennyson, who placed Camelot/Camlann there, and has it sink after Arthur's death. Cornish legend put the loss of Lyonesse in the Middle Ages. (I'm technically Cornish, by my father's family... in fact, if my parents had followed family tradition, my name would be Tristram).
I personally believe - based on a lot of research - that Lyonesse is Ui Liathain, the Irish tribe that colonised Cornwall in the 5th-6th century - the name becomes "Lyons" in another place name in central Cornwall, near Caerhays. Caerhays may be Guinevere's city of Carohaise.
Tristan/Tristram's Lyonesse is combined/confused with Leon, or northwestern Brittany.
Man, I kinda wish I tackled with project with more than a very basic knowledge. But hey, I'm glad y'all decided to help me out! I'll have something for Tristan/Tristram by tomorrow/later today.
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Well, I'm back once more! Here's my take on Tristram.
XP 307200
TN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Ranger 10/Cavalier 8 (Order of the The Land)/Champion 3
Init +4; Senses Normal; Perception +20
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +6 masterwork armor, +2 shield)
hp 153 (18d10+44)
Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +10
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy mace +21/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+4); spiked shield +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d6+3)
Ranged longbow +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d10+2)
Ranger Spell List
1 (DC 15) – Anticipate Peril, Compel Hostility
2 (DC 16) – Versatile Weapon
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 13
Base Atk +17; CMB +20; CMD 31
Feats Catch Off Guard, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Improved Shield Bash, Saving Shield, Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Slam, Saving Shield, Shield Master
Skills: Knowledge (geography) +14, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Perception +20, Sense Motive +18, Survival +16
Languages Old English, Welsh
SQ Favored Enemies (Animal, Human), Hunter’s Bond (Falcon Companion – Use Bird Stats), Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style (Weapon and Shield), Favored Terrain (Forest, Urban), Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Terrain Training, Adaptive Strike, Challenge, Mount, Tactician, Cavalier Charge, Banner
Mythic Abilities: Amazing Initiative, Mythic Power, Surge +1d6, Recuperation, Hard To Kill, Champion’s Strike – Fleet Charge, Always a Chance, Punishing Blow, Maximized Critical
Mythic Feats: MYTHIC Improved Disarm, MYTHIC Bull Rush
Specific information available on d20 PFSRD
Yeah, I kinda got lazy with what the abilities do... but, if they didn't directly affect the math, I didn't write much on them...
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And then Lyonesse sinks in to the sea.Actually that's one of the poetic touches of Greg Stafford in the Pendragon RPG; it's in a sense, based on Tennyson, who placed Camelot/Camlann there, and has it sink after Arthur's death. Cornish legend put the loss of Lyonesse in the Middle Ages. (I'm technically Cornish, by my father's family... in fact, if my parents had followed family tradition, my name would be Tristram).
I personally believe - based on a lot of research - that Lyonesse is Ui Liathain, the Irish tribe that colonised Cornwall in the 5th-6th century - the name becomes "Lyons" in another place name in central Cornwall, near Caerhays. Caerhays may be Guinevere's city of Carohaise.
Tristan/Tristram's Lyonesse is combined/confused with Leon, or northwestern Brittany.
Huh. I appear to have been fooled. But in a good way. Pendragon's great.
It's a nitpick, but Tristram should have Handle Animal and Perform.
What about some levels in Animal Speaker Bard instead of ranger?
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Why is Tristram carrying a mace? His animal companion should be a dog - Husdent, who is an Faerie dog (human intelligence). He should have good Bluff and Perform skills.
Actually, the only male lead character carrying a mace in the legends is Merlin, who carries a cudgel (particularly in giant form). Nimue bears a short bow and arrows. She also has a pack of hounds, when you get to her (she's the closest the medieval stories come to a female adventurer or PC, though we only get to see a few of her adventures).
The only major figures left are Yvain (Owain), the son of Morgan le Fay, the Knight with the Lion, Sir Kay, and Bors (Bohort), Lancelot's cousin, who is one of the three Grail knights. Bors is pretty much a straight Paladin, though he has no spells. Sir Kay is a terrible but brave fighter, who mostly is known for his cruel wit.
Lancelot, btw, has a ring which gives him SR and a bonus to saves against illusions.
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Interesting idea! I would say only a handful of Arthurian characters would be mythic, however. Certainly Merlin, Lancelot, and Arthur himself would be. Of those, Arthur's probably T3-5, Merlin just below him, and Lancelot just below Merlin. The Grail Knight, whether Galahad or Percival (depending on which legends you go by), is probably T1 at the completion of the Grail quest (a mythic trial). Morgan le Fay might be low-grade mythic, probably T1-2, just so she counts as mythic. I would not think Mordred would be mythic at all, but should probably have a mythic bane spear! The only other character I would think might be mythic would be the Fisher King.
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If you read Culhwch ac Olwen, however, everyone is mythic (particularly Key/Cei). Of course, some of the mythic abilities are "eats a table full of food at one sitting" or "can stand on one foot all day."
I'd argue that Guinevere is mythic or only semi-human based on Celtic legend (her name means "Fair Phantom", and in Welsh legend her father is a giant or god).
Mordred is mythic in the plot device sense of a man geased to kill a great hero. In some of the analogous Fenian cycle stuff, the Mordred-like figure is definitely mythic, and a magician.
Tristram is definitely mythic; as is Gawain (who has mythic-type abilities). In general I'd define mythic characters as those characters in the legend who fit the pattern of a classical or Campbellian hero; the ones whose deaths and exploits really matter. Without Gawain, if you go by the verse romances, the realm would have fallen long ago. Tristram single-handedly defeats a formidable quasi-fey knight (Marhaus/Li Morholt, himself of the Round Table) as a 16 or 18 year old boy.
I have noticed that no one has magic items. Was that on purpose? Certainly magic existed in all of the legends. I know you haven't done Arthur yet, but I always assumed that Excalibur was magical, and then there is his magic sheath that prevents him from bleeding.
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I have noticed that no one has magic items. Was that on purpose? Certainly magic existed in all of the legends. I know you haven't done Arthur yet, but I always assumed that Excalibur was magical, and then there is his magic sheath that prevents him from bleeding.
There are a multitude of magic items in the legends. Certainly they are rare and can't be purchased, but they are part of the normal equipment for heroic characters.
Magic swords, magic horses, magic dogs, rings, etc., are pretty common. However, there is a Welsh tradition that Merlin was, for some reason, hiding magic items in his invisible house of glass. Maybe it's to explain where they all went.
Ah, shows what I know... I figured ranger would work and falconry was brought up. No matter, I shall correct this at once! Also, I'll have to give these guys some magic items!
Also, lemme do some quick revisions to Tristram. I considered having him as bard, but I figure ranger works fine too. I find the ranger class more fitting towards a warrior/knight.
XP 307200
TN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Ranger 10/Cavalier 8 (Order of the The Land)/Champion 3
Init +4; Senses Normal; Perception +16
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +6 masterwork armor, +2 shield)
hp 153 (18d10+44)
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +10
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee enchanted +4 longsword of legend +24/+19/+14/+9 (1d8+8); spiked shield +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d6+3)
Ranged longbow +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d10+2)
Ranger Spell List
1 (DC 15) – Anticipate Peril, Compel Hostility
2 (DC 16) – Versatile Weapon
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 13
Base Atk +17; CMB +20; CMD 31
Feats Catch Off Guard, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Saving Shield, Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Slam, Saving Shield, Shield Master
Skills: Handle Animal +14, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Perception +16, Perform +10, Sense Motive +12, Survival +13
Languages Old English, Welsh
SQ Favored Enemies (Animal, Human), Hunter’s Bond (Falcon Companion – Use Bird Stats), Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style (Weapon and Shield), Favored Terrain (Forest, Urban), Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Terrain Training, Adaptive Strike, Challenge, Mount, Tactician, Cavalier Charge, Banner
Mythic Abilities: Amazing Initiative, Mythic Power, Surge +1d6, Recuperation, Hard To Kill, Champion’s Strike – Fleet Charge, Always a Chance, Punishing Blow, Maximized Critical
Mythic Feats: MYTHIC Improved Disarm, MYTHIC Bull Rush
Note: Tristan’s ranger companion counts as an animal affected by the Awaken spell. The dog companion also can use Bluff and Perform skills due to its intelligence.
Specific information available on d20 PFSRD
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Well, it looks like I didn't change Tristram's companion back to dog... How embarrassing. No matter, I finally made stats for Sir Gawain. I'm more than willing to modify as needed.
XP 204,800
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4/ Cavalier (Order of the Scales)/ Marshal 3
Init +5; Senses Perception +4
Aura Good, Battlefield Presence
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+1 Dex, +2 dodge, +1 feat, +7 armor, +2 shield)
hp 168 (19d10+52)
Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +15
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +19/+14/+9 (1d8+3/17-20,x2)
Cleric spells prepared: (CL 4, Concentration +4)
Lv 1 - Knight’s Calling, Honeyed Tongue
Special Attacks Lay on hands (3d6) 7/Day
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STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Base Atk +15; CMB +18; CMD 29
Feats Alertness, Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (longsword), Coordinated Defense, Coordinated Maneuvers, Precise Strike, Back to Back, Step Up, Following Step, Pesuasive
Skills: Climb +10, Diplomacy +24, Handle Animal +10, Heal +12, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +12, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +10, Perception +17, Profession +10, Ride +12, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +8, Swim +10
Languages Old English, Welsh
SQ Humanoid Traits, Swift Reactions, Detect Evil, Lay On Hands, Divine Grace, Channel Positive Energy, Weal’s Champion, Challenge +4 (5/Day), Mobile Wall, Tactician/Greater, Banner/Greater, Cavalier’s Charge/Mighty, Demanding Challenge, Seek Retribution
Mythic Feats - Mythic Step Up, Mythic Persuasive
Mythic Abilities Decisive Strike, Lend Power, Heroic Block, Caster’s Friend, Mythic Power, Surge, Amazing Initiative, Recuperation, Hard to Kill
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Gurdle of Life Protection (Su)
Once per week, when Sir Gawain experiences an attack or spell that would kill him, the Gurdle allows him to drop to 1 HP instead.
Mighty Gauntlets (Su)
Upon the time of day reaching non, Sir Gawain is granted a +4 bonus to strength rolls (including melee attack and damage) for 4 hours.
Special Equipment: Gurdle of Protection, Mighty Gauntlets
Class and Mythic specifics on d20PFSRD
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Gurdle > probably you mean "Girdle"
Regardless, a good conversion, I think (particularly of the Green Knight Gawain, who is my favourite).
More random Arthurian "facts":
Amlawdd, or Hamlet (Amlawdd is the Welsh form of the name) is Igerna's father, and hence Arthur (and Morgan and Morgawse and Elaine's) grandfather. This is an old Welsh tradition, probably based on a mingling of Viking and Welsh stories.
The Grail legend has been plausibly connected to "graal" legends from Catalonia and Leon/Galicia by French scholars in the past few decades, which explains the strong emphasis on Spain (and the reconquista) in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival. The same research has identified Percival with the Frankish Crusader Rotrou du Perche.
I have an interesting theory about the interrelationship of the Nibelungen legends (in Frankish and Visigothic tradition) and the Breton Arthurian stories I am developing in a book I've been working on for a while.
Yes, I meant Girdle. Spelling has always been a weak point for me, haha. Anyway, I can't thank you enough for compiling all of this abridged information (since I'm still not that rehearsed in the mythology myself.)
Whan that book comes out, tell us please. I want to read it! You made me aware that I don't know enough about this.
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I would also suggest checking 1st and 2nd ed Deities and Demigods, as the Arthurian Mythos was explored extremely well in both of those books.
I have a copy of the 2nd Ed book around... somewhere. I forgot that it had Arthurian mythos in it. Well, all the more reason to find it. Thanks for the reminder, the book will come in handy!
Bleh, I've neglected this project for too long. I'll try to remedy this by today or tomorrow (or later today, depending on time zone)
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Here we go, stats for Percival!
XP 51200
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Fighter 10/ Paladin 5/ MYTHIC 4
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
Auras Courage, Good; Immune Fear, Disease
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+1 feat, +8 armor, +3 shield)
hp 156 (15d10+56)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +19/+14/+9 (1d8+7/19-20,x2), (OFFHAND ATTACK)(offhand) +16/+11 (1d5+2), shield +16 (1d6+7/19-20,x2)
Paladin Spells (CL 2)
1/Day Divine Favor
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +17; CMD 32
Feats Cleave, Disruptive, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Missile Shield, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, Spellbreaker, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Focus (shield), Weapon Specialization
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Climb +14, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (religion) +7, Survival +10
Languages Old English, Welsh
SQ Humanoid Traits, Lay On Hands (2d6), Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Bond
Mythic - Sudden Attack, Always a Chance, Mythic Smite, Maximized Critical, To The Death, Hard to Kill, Mythic Power, Surge 1d8, Recuperation, Amazing Initiatve
Mythic Feats - Mythic Shield Master, Mythic Shield Slam (1d8)
More content on the way really soon! ... I really need to keep this project more active.
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Perceval gets lost in the woods (and on the roads)... a lot - it's a motif of the verse Grail romances that's almost a joke. He pretty much only knows his way around his native country. Survival +10 may be generous.
He also carries javelins as his missile weapon - he killed the Red Knight with one. I'd give him a Heal skill, for thematic reasons, and because he sometimes aids wounded strangers.