I'm not seeing any Arthurian characters as CR 20+. At those levels, a Pathfinder character is essentially a demigod. They can survive orbital re-entry naked and wade through lava.
I'd start with Merlin, look at the most incredible (highest-level) spell he casts in any of the myths, and go from there. Lancelot, being awesome, can be the same level as Merlin; everyone else should be lower. Remember that you can give Mythic tiers to very low-level characters, not just the Cu Chulainn types.
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Well, Merlin does teleport an entire army. (Teleportation Circle (level 9) with multiple metamagic feats?)
He also takes the form of a Huge giant. (a Wiz/Sor spell level 8)
I think he's level 20.
Tristan/Tristram regularly cuts armoured knights and horses in half - presumably he has a 18 Str, but even with his hand and a half sword, which he wields one-handed, that requires a lot of crits.
Lancelot fought two dragons simultaneously, and most of the other knights can hold as many as 5-6 ordinary knights off (say level 3-6) single-handedly.
There's a specific order to the martial skill of the knights that is referenced in the romances. It goes, more or less, like this (Arthur's not even on the list - he's simply a good knight, not an excellent one. He's mainly an excellent king):
Malory ranks them as: Lancelot, Tristram, Bors, Perceval, Pelleas, Marhaus, and Gawain, followed by everyone else. Marhaus is Li Morholt, the Irish champion slain by Tristram, and Pelleas is a minor character, the father of Guivret le Petit, the dwarf king, and lover in Malory of Nimue. Obviously individual ability varies as characters are different ages. But there's a certain pre determinism here - Lancelot doesn't exactly receive a standard military education, but he is the best knight from the onset.
For Merlin, according to the Vulgate cycle, I would argue he would be a Cavalier/Sorceror/Druid mix.
Unless you use Parsifal from Wagner then maybe an evoker.
For Lancelot(old aged) I would add a level or two of monk.
I can say for a fact, I always appreciate everyone's help. I wish I wasn't so busy all the time, so I could dedicate more to this project, but that's life. Anyway, I can happily revise Sir Percival.
As for why I made them such high level? I guess I figure them as the essential mythic hero at their prime. At the time, high level + mythic seemed like a good idea. I was taking a few hints from some D&D and related books for prime inspiration. I guess my version is an adaptation of sorts. Plus, at high levels, characters can mimic the incredible feats of the heroes themselves.
I always liked it when Merlin stopped time so he could gate in a balor to kill Mordred.
I'd probably give him a more elemental spell list, and use multi-class to keep from accessing the extremely ridiculous spells (going by the suggestion from before.) But yeah, no major summonings or time stops. I'm pulling from a bunch of adaptations (even going as far as Disney! But, from the beginning I wanted to make this project a mix of the classics and pop culture), but I don't think I'll include Balrogs or Chronomancy.
Anyway, as I promised...
Sir Percival CR 17/MR 4
XP 51200
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Fighter 10/ Paladin 5/ MYTHIC 4
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
Auras Courage, Good; Immune Fear, Disease
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+1 feat, +8 armor, +3 shield)
hp 156 (15d10+56)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +18/+13/+8 (1d8+5/19-20,x2), (OFFHAND ATTACK)(offhand) +16/+11 (1d6+2), shield +16 (1d6+7/19-20,x2)
Ranged enchanted javelins (3) +22/+17/+12 (1d6+3/19-20,x2, 30ft range)
Paladin Spells (CL 2)
1/Day Divine Favor
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +17; CMD 32
Feats Cleave, Disruptive, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Missile Shield, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, Spellbreaker, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (javelin), Weapon Focus (shield), Weapon Specialization
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Climb +14, Heal +10, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (religion) +7
Languages Old English, Welsh
SQ Humanoid Traits, Lay On Hands (2d6), Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Bond
Mythic - Sudden Attack, Always a Chance, Mythic Smite, Maximized Critical, To The Death, Hard to Kill, Mythic Power, Surge 1d8, Recuperation, Amazing Initiatve
Mythic Feats - Mythic Shield Master, Mythic Shield Slam (1d8)
Without further ado, here's my latest post.
"The loud and boisterous Sir Kay is Arthur’s foster brother. While under the order of the round table, he serves as the king’s seneschal. However, he has been known to cause trouble by reporting and even bullying knight and civilian alike. He is more pleased with upholding order rather than chivalry."
Sir Kay CR 16/MR2
XP 51200
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Human Aristocrat 5/Fighter 10/Marshal 2
Init +4; Senses Perception 0
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+2 Dex, +8 Armor, +3 Shield, +1 Dodge, +1 Focus)
hp 132 (5d8+10d10+45)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +7
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft. in armor (30 ft. without)
Melee shortsword +18/+13/+8 (1d6+7/19-20,x2); shield +12/+7/+2 (1d6+4, x2)
Ranged Longbow +16/+11/+6 (1d8, x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 17, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +12; CMB +15; CMD 29
Feats - Weapon Focus (sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Shield Focus, Missile Shield, Weapon Focus (shield), Weapon Specialization (sword), Shield Slam, Disruptive, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Spellbreaker
Mythic Feats - Mythic Spellbreaker
Skills: - Appraise +8, Bluff +8, Climb +7, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +13, Linguistics +6, Perception +8, Profession (seneschal) +8, Ride +8, Survival +5, Sense Motive +7
Languages Old English, French, Welsh
SQ Humanoid Traits, Bravery +3, Armor Training I/II, Weapon Training I/II
MYTHIC SQ Hard to Kill, Mythic Power, Surge 1d6, Decisive Strike, Directed Assault, Assured Skill, Amazing Initiative
Equipment Plate Mail, +1 Heavy Shield, short sword, longbow, arrows (15), parchment paper, writing tools, order of conduct parchment
Short Round (from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom)
Male human rogue 20; CR 19/MR2.
No need to be so snide...
Now, taking your comment from before as criticism, I don't want to really have any CR20 characters, except for Merlin. MAYBE Lancelot. It might be stretching it for Arthur, Morgan, and the like. That said, I want to keep the epic heroes (keyword 'epic') are relatively higher up. The round table, I imagine as Lv. 12 - 17 warriors. Lancelot is an exception.
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Let me clarify, I can sympathize with making Lancelot a 20th level paladin. I might not personally agree, but he is presented in legend as a fighter of invincible prowess, so yeah, I can see it.
But Kay and Short Round are minor characters played mostly for comic relief. You could make Kay a 6th level Aristocrat and it totally wouldn't be unreasonable. Assigning him a level in the upper teens AND more than one mythic tier makes it seem like there's a clearance sale on awesome power going on, and everyone has so much of it they don't know what to do.
Alright, thanks for some helpful feedback. I'll fix his character ASAP, though I still want to keep him vaguely epic, even if he amounts to nothing more than a troll in the court. If I can explain part of my warped reasoning, he took down a giant in the classic lore. If I remember, by himself. And there were accounts of him having mystical prowess, even though that was probably BS. Also, Legends & Lore 2E had some influence on the stats, even if some results may vary (They made in a Lv 13 or so fighter, if I remember.) Also, swapping out fighter levels for aristocrat doesn't make him super impressive IMO. I probably botched up CR because NPC classes work different.
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In The Mabinogion, every one of Arthur's men had some random magical talent, but they were mostly pretty useless -- stuff like "He could make his beard grow six inches overnight." Then again, it takes all Arthur's knights to put down a rampaging dire boar, so take that source with a grain of salt!
To peg him as taking down a giant and having that be meaningful, Kay would be approximately CR 7 (the same as a hill giant). If he's CR 16, he can be expected to have an even chance to defeat at least two dozen (24) of them, all at once, without help. I'm not trying to troll here; I just want to point out how CR scales in 3.X/Pathfinder.
So, let's take two on this... Again, I'm very much an amateur (and not super knowledgeable about the myths) at this, so I've been prone to a lot of error.
So, here's what I have here. The giant slaying was in the past, likely at another point in his career. The stats assume that they've been in the table for a while now, hence a mythic tier. This version of Kay does not have a mythic tier. I might add 1 mythic tier later...
Plus, Arist 5/Fight 10/Mythic 2 would have actually been CR13... which is still pretty damn high. I trimmed it down to Arist 3/Fight 9 for CR 9. (CR 10 if I added 1 mythic)
Sir Kay CR 9
XP 19,200
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Aristocrat 5/Fighter 9
Init +4; Senses Normal; Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+2 Dex, +6 Armor, +2 Shield, +1 Focus)
hp 124 (5d8+9d10+42)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft. in armor (30 ft. without)
Melee shortsword +17/+12/+7 (1d6+6/19-20,x2); shield +11/+6/+1 (1d6+3, x2)
Ranged Longbow +17/+12/+7 (1d8+2, x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 17, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 28
Feats - Weapon Focus (sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (shield), Weapon Specialization (sword), Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Endurance
Skills: - Appraise +8, Bluff +8, Climb +7, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +13, Linguistics +6, Perception +8, Profession (seneschal) +8, Ride +8, Survival +5, Sense Motive +7
Languages Old English, French, Welsh
SQ Humanoid Traits, Bravery +2, Armor Training I/II, Weapon Training I/II
Equipment Plate Mail, Heavy Shield, short sword, longbow, arrows (15), parchment paper, writing tools, order of conduct parchment
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In The Mabinogion, every one of Arthur's men had some random magical talent, but they were mostly pretty useless -- stuff like "He could make his beard grow six inches overnight." Then again, it takes all Arthur's knights to put down a rampaging dire boar, so take that source with a grain of salt!
To peg him as taking down a giant and having that be meaningful, Kay would be approximately CR 7 (the same as a hill giant). If he's CR 16, he can be expected to have an even chance to defeat at least two dozen (24) of them, all at once, without help. I'm not trying to troll here; I just want to point out how CR scales in 3.X/Pathfinder.
Welsh giants are Colossal, not Huge, in general, however. Cei was Arthur's right-hand man. But, yes, in general, in the romances, his role is to get beat up and take on things he can't handle. Definitely brave, and also smart, but full of himself.
If you believe that someone is high level, then they would be able to challenge or kill a CR 17 monster like this.
Jeff Irwin, I could read your Arthurian posts all day. How's the book coming?
I swear, if I take this project beyond just a free time hobby, I want you to continue to be a part of this!
The key to CR is that it's exponential: every +2 literally doubles your power. So if an awesome knight of the round table is 5th level, and you want Kay to be twice as good, make him 7th level, not 10th. And if Gawain is twice as good as Kay, make him 9th, not 14th!
While I ponder what to do with this project, I'm putting it on hold. I'll figure out whether I redo it with no mythic and significantly lower CR or keep chugging along. I'm not so much discouraged, because I'm grateful for critiques. It's more like I don't feel like doing the project right now, not until I figure out how to even continue it. As I've said before, this has been a beneficial learning experience, if anything.
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While I ponder what to do with this project, I'm putting it on hold. I'll figure out whether I redo it with no mythic and significantly lower CR or keep chugging along. I'm not so much discouraged, because I'm grateful for critiques. It's more like I don't feel like doing the project right now, not until I figure out how to even continue it. As I've said before, this has been a beneficial learning experience, if anything.
These characters are mythic. They needn't be high-level, at least a lot of them, but they are definitely mythic. They are not gritty and they are not realistic.
Arthur is credited with killing 960 men in a single charge at the Battle of Badon.
I agree that giving even some of the secondary guys a mythic tier is entirely consistent with the sources. As you and I have both said, too, mythic tiers can be given even to comparatively low-level characters like Agravain.
In 1e, they were all statted up in Deities & Demigods (might have been referenced above somewhere).
For 3e, I enjoyed Relics and Rituals: Excalibur, which had an interesting take on Arthurian campaigns.
Let me clarify, I can sympathize with making Lancelot a 20th level paladin. I might not personally agree, but he is presented in legend as a fighter of invincible prowess, so yeah, I can see it.
But Kay and Short Round are minor characters played mostly for comic relief. You could make Kay a 6th level Aristocrat and it totally wouldn't be unreasonable. Assigning him a level in the upper teens AND more than one mythic tier makes it seem like there's a clearance sale on awesome power going on, and everyone has so much of it they don't know what to do.
A knight's prowess varies with the source material. Generally, a knight performs a lot better in a romance named after him than in one where he is a secondary character. Kay was very formidable in the Welsh material but got progressively worse in later material. Even Malory is inconsistent in handling him. In one of the earlier chapters, Arthur, Kay, and two other knights take on five kings who from the context are all formidable warriors. Kay is the one who kills two of the kings. Later on, he becomes the familiar punching bag for the newest up and coming knight.
One modern author reconciled these contradictions by saying that Kay started out as a formidable knight but let himself go as his domestic duties took up more and more of his time -- but that is something that most RPGs do not model well.
In one of the earlier chapters, Arthur, Kay, and two other knights take on five kings who from the context are all formidable warriors.
In Pathfinder, a 1st level fighter is a "formidable warrior" insofar as he can be expected to be an equal match for three 1st level warriors. By 6th level, you're hewing your way through piles of ordinary guys and dispatching "formidable warriors" like that with ease.
As long as your opponents are other mundane fighters, we're firmly in E6 territory. Higher-level characters in Pathfinder are expected to stave off full-scale demonic invasions and returning Elder Gods.
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In one of the earlier chapters, Arthur, Kay, and two other knights take on five kings who from the context are all formidable warriors.In Pathfinder, a 1st level fighter is a "formidable warrior" insofar as he can be expected to be an equal match for three 1st level warriors. By 6th level, you're hewing your way through piles of ordinary guys and dispatching "formidable warriors" like that with ease.
As long as your opponents are other mundane fighters, we're firmly in E6 territory. Higher-level characters in Pathfinder are expected to stave off full-scale demonic invasions and returning Elder Gods.
True, though in the Grail Quest, Lancelot and Perceval do fight demons and fiends. I think most of the major heroes also single-handedly defend castles, survive what should be mortal wounds, and kill colossal giants and dragons singlehandedly. Lancelot fights two giants at the same time and wins. This sort of thing is specifically a "top-tier" knights kind of thing. The Grail Quest romances is where you see a lot of things like what are effectively Anti-paladins, demonic avatars, fantastic monsters, etc., and in a sense is closer to Culhwch ac Olwen than Geoffrey of Monmouth. I think we're talking CR 17 at least. But most of the minor characters are probably CR 6 or less. There's a huge gap. Guinevere, by the way, is possibly low-level but with multiple mythic tiers. Morgan is capable of binding all of the heroes with her magic -whatever their level -Lancelot is only saved because of his ring that protects him from enchantment. So she is probably in the top tier as well (along with Merlin and Nimue). But the Arthurian spell list is going to be different in some respects from the PF one. There is a 3.5 "Arthurian" list in Rituals & Relics: Excalibur (that Kirth recommended (and I do too)) that you could use as a starting point.
For the record, you don't have to be high level to fight colossal monsters. Colossal creatures start as low as CR 8.
How about a stat block on the questing beast?
Out of curiosity, I pulled my old copy of the 1st ed. Deities and Demigods, which has Arthur as a 14th level paladin and Launcelot as 20th level paladin. Knights of renown are 8th to 10th level fighters; knights of quality like Kay and Percival are 10th to 13th level fighters.
One estimate of inter-edition "power creep" suggests that a 3rd level Pathfinder PC is equivalent to a 6th level PC in AD&D. For the sake of simplicity, subtracting 3 levels from the above leaves Arthur at 11th level, Launcelot at 17th (as Jeff Erwin suggested), and Kay at 7th to 10th (as I recommended above).
Looking at the Mabinogion again, I'd almost be tempted to give Kay ("Cei") rogue levels, because his killing of Wrnach the giant is more along the lines of a sneak attack or coup de grace than a stand-up fight.
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Out of curiosity, I pulled my old copy of the 1st ed. Deities and Demigods, which has Arthur as a 14th level paladin and Launcelot as 20th level paladin. Knights of renown are 8th to 10th level fighters; knights of quality like Kay and Percival are 10th to 13th level fighters.
One estimate of inter-edition "power creep" suggests that a 3rd level Pathfinder PC is equivalent to a 6th level PC in AD&D. For the sake of simplicity, subtracting 3 levels from the above leaves Arthur at 11th level, Launcelot at 17th (as Jeff Erwin suggested), and Kay at 7th to 10th (as I recommended above).
Looking at the Mabinogion again, I'd almost be tempted to give Kay ("Cei") rogue levels, because his killing of Wrnach the giant is more along the lines of a sneak attack or coup de grace than a stand-up fight.
I like the idea of converting the levels based on the old D&D characters.
Re Kay/Keu/Cei, that's true. He's also quick with his tongue (Diplomacy/Intimidation), deceptive, and more skill-focused than say, Lancelot. He has maxed out Profession (steward).
Lancelot's skills, for example, are probably limited to Ride, Performance (poetry), Heal, and perhaps Knowledge (faerie). He's too unworldly to worry about Knowledge (nobility) or Diplomacy. Perceval's pretty similar - Ride, Heal, um... Knowledge (religion)?
We can compare that to Gauvain (who is arguably much more intelligent), who is an accomplished Diplomat, has Sense Motive, Knowledge (nobility), Performance (harp), and Perception.