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You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
So, if I buy a Glider (Ultimate Combat p187) would I then be allowed to take ranks in fly?
It is really annoying having the restriction on a low Int character that won't be getting wings until level 10 or 11. I can't exactly start dumping all my skill points in fly just as soon as I get the wings to get it up quickly when I'm only getting 1 or 2 points a level.
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Aziraya, birds lack a magical source for the flight ability, but they can learn the fly skill. I would allow it, but I would require the character to actually use the glider (almost) every day, with all the possible risks and problems that that would entail.
The solution for the low intelligence character is simple: buy a headband of intelligence with the fly skill. The character will gain 1 skill/level in the fly skill.
Edit: Serious response to the "magical" clause Aziraya cites, the first part of the fly skill says "You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding". I'd say using a non-magical means to glide means it is a natural one.
The important thing is flavor meeting mechanics. Your character training on a Glider meets the flavor and the mechanics of the fly skill. Indeed, it won't be a class skill (depending on your class), but it shows that you have trained in it.
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So, if I buy a Glider (Ultimate Combat p187) would I then be allowed to take ranks in fly?
Yes.
The Glider definitely provides a method of practicing aerial maneuvers. Of course, I hope you have feather fall, or you will have a lot of crashes.
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Since it looks like a case of RAW says no it doesn't matter if RAI says yes because it's for PFS.
Honestly though having Gliders PFS legal is probably an oversight. Especially considering Airships and Alchemical Dragons from the same section are also legal, I think they just forgot to ban that section. Not that I would have even tried to use the Glider in a scenario, I would have bought it just to be able to take ranks in Fly early.
The Headband is not an option for this character as I'll be using a different headband slot item. Unfortunately that only leaves the 8k Ioun stone.
Important thing about a Glider is this portion:
Driving Check : Fly or Acrobatics +10 to the DC
Some GM's may say that you would need an acrobatics check until you can get a more reliable means of flight.
Its an air vehicle. Whatever skill is used to pilot it should be usable. As a gm though I'd only allow it if there were cliffs nearby and you could actually practice.
However for pfs if its between scenarios and if gliders are legal it should be legit.
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Aziraya, birds lack a magical source for the flight ability, but they can learn the fly skill.
Of course, I fully agree, but because that kind of flight you're mentioning is covered by the first sentence. The first sentence essentially covers flight given to you based on genetics. The second sentence is talking about what can give flight other than genetics. I just left the first sentence out of my above post because it seemed fairly obvious that the first sentence doesn't apply to this scenario (which over the internet intention can be easily misread, so I can see how my meaning could be easy to misinterpret).
The glider isn't something given by genetics, so isn't granted by the first sentence. Unless you want to play the wordsmith game with the PFS GM by saying "natural" could mean the natural physical laws of lift and air resistance, trying to use the first sentence doesn't work. That means the glider would have to fall into the second sentence to make it a RAW legal outlet for the fly skill. It isn't a spell nor is it magical, so isn't covered by the second sentence by a strict RAW reading.
Like I said though: I would definitely give it to Drake if I had authority over rules. In my opinion this is just one of those sad moments where PFS RAW ruling conflicts with what seems logical (and most importantly: fun and incredibly flavorful) to allow.
(To whoever marked my last post as an FAQ candidate, I would probably switch it to this post as it's a much more developed argument)
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For the propose of PFS, would the glider really allow you to place ranks in Fly?
It just seems weird, since you are using a vehicle to achieve flight... while the fly skill seems to be more for flying via magic or natural wings.
If the gilder works, won't having a flying purchased mount like the Dire bat or Giant vulture also be acceptable to place ranks in fly?
Asking, cos it seems the restrictions on placing ranks in the fly skill is being easily overcome with $$$ :P.
For the propose of PFS, would the glider really allow you to place ranks in Fly?
It just seems weird, since you are using a vehicle to achieve flight... while the fly skill seems to be more for flying via magic or natural wings.
If the gilder works, won't having a flying purchased mount like the Dire bat or Giant vulture also be acceptable to place ranks in fly?
Asking, cos it seems the restrictions on placing ranks in the fly skill is being easily overcome with $$$ :P.
I would say yes.... And honestly I would say it SHOULD...
What you get from the fly skill is sooooooo 'base'... Nothing more then turning in mid air or steering in high winds... controlling a crash...
Regardless of HOW you got in the air... I would say that skill should certainly apply... It seems kind of silly that a guy with a spell for X minutes a day can have more practice at turning in high winds... than a guy who has a mount for all day long.
Personally I find the restriction on being able to ranks into the fly skill rather annoying and silly. Why can't the wizard freshly gaining the fly spell be able to use it well. Or better, the 10th level dragon totem barbarian who finally got wings. Are you really going to tell that player that he's 10 levels worth of skill points behind because you weren't going to allow him to put a skill point into something he couldn't use for 10 levels?
Seems unnecessarily harsh to me.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).So, if I buy a Glider (Ultimate Combat p187) would I then be allowed to take ranks in fly?
It is really annoying having the restriction on a low Int character that won't be getting wings until level 10 or 11. I can't exactly start dumping all my skill points in fly just as soon as I get the wings to get it up quickly when I'm only getting 1 or 2 points a level.
Pathfinder really hates its mundanes. It was bad enough in 3E relying on the easily dispellable CL 5 or whatever winged boots. Then PF comes along and adds skill check requirements and tells the non-casters, "oh sorry, you can't train that at all until you have the item....maybe....15 min. per day isn't much practice time."
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You know, at first glance, I thought "Of course not!", because piloting a glider is different than flying in the normal sense. But if you can pilot it using the Fly skill, it's hard to argue that you can't train in Fly while using it.
Still just seems like an unneccesary punishment on forward thinking players. From a simulationist perspective it does make sense that one who does not have access to fly cannot begin to know how to fly...at the same time for players who would like to plan out their character from level 1 and know they will fly it still seems crappy to tell them that they can't do it.
The rules are pretty clear on the topic, I just happen to disagree with them.
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Personally I find the restriction on being able to ranks into the fly skill rather annoying and silly. Why can't the wizard freshly gaining the fly spell be able to use it well. Or better, the 10th level dragon totem barbarian who finally got wings. Are you really going to tell that player that he's 10 levels worth of skill points behind because you weren't going to allow him to put a skill point into something he couldn't use for 10 levels?
Seems unnecessarily harsh to me.
Sounds eminently logical to me. A Barbarian has the skill points to make a decent investment, especially when he gets the power, the Fly skill becomes a class skill at that point. For Wizards, the Fly spell itself will grant bonus ranks at that level, on top of his class skill bonus, so cry me a river.
A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.
Mr. Barbarian has a few choices... one of them is make friends with the party wizard who can give him a few castings of Fly during downtime.
Note that the magical means to fly don't give the maneuverability bonus/malus to the fly skill.
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
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Still just seems like an unneccesary punishment on forward thinking players. From a simulationist perspective it does make sense that one who does not have access to fly cannot begin to know how to fly...at the same time for players who would like to plan out their character from level 1 and know they will fly it still seems crappy to tell them that they can't do it.
The rules are pretty clear on the topic, I just happen to disagree with them.
Excuse me, the fly skill is a physical one, based on dexterity. You are saying that you can learn a physical skill without ever using it?
As a simulationist, what are you simulating? Thinking about flying to learn how to do it?BTW, your barbarian can put skill in the fly skill as soon as he get his wings. You chose the class and related features before choosing the skills.
Same thing for the wizard.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
"integrate all of the level's class abilities" includes growing wings, getting the fly spell as one of the spells added to your spellbook when you increase in level, learning as new spell as a spontaneous spellcaster and so on.
Adding skills and feats is the last step.
A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.
Mr. Barbarian has a few choices... one of them is make friends with the party wizard who can give him a few castings of Fly during downtime.
Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.As long as they did not dump Dex, they can move less than 1/2 speed automatically. They only need a 4 between Dex and d20 to hover.
As to needing natural (inherent) flight or magical flight, here is the text:
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
The magical note is a parenthetical, not part of the main text. Use of parentheses is usually used to explain, not exhaustively limit.
I think a glider is OK.
/cevah
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A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.
Mr. Barbarian has a few choices... one of them is make friends with the party wizard who can give him a few castings of Fly during downtime.
Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.As long as they did not dump Dex, they can move less than 1/2 speed automatically. They only need a 4 between Dex and d20 to hover.
As to needing natural (inherent) flight or magical flight, here is the text:
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).The magical note is a parenthetical, not part of the main text. Use of parentheses is usually used to explain, not exhaustively limit.
I think a glider is OK.
/cevah
The wizard don't get the bonus for the maneuverability. He doesn't have a natural fly speed.
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
The wizard don't get the bonus for the maneuverability. He doesn't have a natural fly speed.A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.
Fly spell:
"...and its maneuverability is good."/cevah
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The wizard don't get the bonus for the maneuverability. He doesn't have a natural fly speed.A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.Fly spell:
"...and its maneuverability is good."/cevah
Yes, "its maneuverability is good", but he don't apply any modifier to the fly skill for that.
"its maneuverability is good" is simply a leftover from the 3.X version of the rules, without any effect now that we use the fly skill with its specific rules.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).The magical note is a parenthetical, not part of the main text. Use of parentheses is usually used to explain, not exhaustively limit.
I think a glider is OK.
/cevah
One fun thing about specific wording... is Core vs Everything else....
When that was written there WAS no glider available... If you have to use a fly skill to pilot it, then I can't see any reason why the rules would stop you from GETTING a fly skill WITH it...
As a GM I'd be perfectly OK with this.
The wizard don't get the bonus for the maneuverability. He doesn't have a natural fly speed.A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.Fly spell:
"...and its maneuverability is good."/cevah
Yes, "its maneuverability is good", but he don't apply any modifier to the fly skill for that.
"its maneuverability is good" is simply a leftover from the 3.X version of the rules, without any effect now that we use the fly skill with its specific rules.
Why not? The spell gives a un-natural fly speed. The fly skill specifies good maneuverability gets +4.
Some examples of un-natural flight in the Bestiary:
Creature maneuverability; skill+, components to skill, hit die
Azata, Ghaele Fly [perfect]; fly +25, perfect 8 dex 1 class 3 rank 13, hd 13
Elemental, Air, Elder Fly [perfect]; fly +34, huge -4 perfect 8 dex 11 class 3 rank 16, hd 16
Genie, Djinni Fly [perfect]; fly +20, large -2 perfect 8 dex 4 class 3 rank 7, hd 7
Will-o'-wisp Fly [perfect]; fly +31, small 2 perfect 8 dex 9 class 3 rank 9, hd 9
Yeth Hound Fly [good]; fly +16, good 4 dex 2 feat 3 class 3 rank 4, hd 4
None of these creatures have wings. All use un-natural flight. The maneuverability modifier is needed to make the numbers come out right.
Or do you mean natural as in always on? If that is the case, Permanency would fix that without changing the fly spell. Yet it would grant the +4 "good" bonus without any reason.
It may be a holdover, but then so is most of the CRB text.
/cevah
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The wizard don't get the bonus for the maneuverability. He doesn't have a natural fly speed.A wizard who makes the minimum 1 pt investment in that skill at 5th level when he gets the Fly spell, as an effective bonus of 4 + dex modifier, which immediately gets bumped up by a further two points when he actually casts the Fly spell. so if the Wizard in question has say, a 14 dex, he's already got a +8 with one measly point. If he puts in no further effort at training, the skill will automatically go up by 1 per 2 caster levels.Actually, it would be:
1 (rank) + 3 (class skill) + 4 (good maneuverability) + 2 (half level bonus) + Dex Mod = 10 + Dex Mod.Fly spell:
"...and its maneuverability is good."/cevah
Yes, "its maneuverability is good", but he don't apply any modifier to the fly skill for that.
"its maneuverability is good" is simply a leftover from the 3.X version of the rules, without any effect now that we use the fly skill with its specific rules.
Why not? The spell gives a un-natural fly speed. The fly skill specifies good maneuverability gets +4.
Some examples of un-natural flight in the Bestiary:
Creature maneuverability; skill+, components to skill, hit die
Azata, Ghaele Fly [perfect]; fly +25, perfect 8 dex 1 class 3 rank 13, hd 13
Elemental, Air, Elder Fly [perfect]; fly +34, huge -4 perfect 8 dex 11 class 3 rank 16, hd 16
Genie, Djinni Fly [perfect]; fly +20, large -2 perfect 8 dex 4 class 3 rank 7, hd 7...
Natural because I get from my nature, not a tackled on spell.
Natural because I get from my nature, not a tackled on spell.
If the character were one with wings and a less than "good" maneuverability, and then receives a fly spell, would his fly skill improve or not?
/cevah