| ashern |
Hey all, I see people talking about natural attacks being awesome but after looking at several builds I'm having a hard time seeing how you would be able to consistently get sneak attack, short of higher level stuff like improved invisibility. Am I missing something, or is sneak attacking with multiple attacks really a hit or miss sort of thing?
| Claxon |
In general sneak attack is hit or miss.
Being able to use it consistently is difficult and typically requires high level builds with several feats to be able to pull it off consistently (or very helpful team mates). The one notable exception is the ninja which can pickup Invisible Blade (Greater Invisibility). But he has to wait until level 10, which by then many enemies will have extraordinary senses that will still detect you. If they detect you then you will not get sneak attack, and they will likely rip you to shreds.
Davor
|
There are two big ways to sneak attack relatively consistently: 1) A rogue with the Scout archetype gains automatic sneak attack damage at 4th level on a charge, and automatic sneak attack damage at 8th level whenever he moves at least 10'. This increases the number of situations in which sneak attack can be applied, which is awesome, and it means that feats like Furious Focus and Power Attack mean you can actually do pretty solid 1-hit damage, and 2) An alchemist with the Beastmorph and Vivisectionist archetypes eventually gives the alchemist the Pounce ability, and alchemists already get a large number of natural attacks if built for it. Vivisectionist gives them sneak attack damage instead of bombs, and of course, the two stack.
| Gauthok |
Depends.
Are you talking Rogue, or some other class?
You can always go the Shatter Defenses route. Pretty feat intensive, but you force your opponent to be flat-footed as long as you can intimidate them.
You need:
Weapon Focus
> Dazzling Display
>> Shatter Defenses
Power Attack
> Cornugan Smash
for this trick. And it doesn't allow you to dump STR.
I'm not aware of any natural attack specific tricks for SA.
| chaoseffect |
Putting some ranks into Bluff would make you for a good attempt at Feint, which would deny the enemy Dexterity to your next attack.
The main issue there being the need for Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, which would bump feinting down from a standard action to a move action... which would still mean you can't benefit from having multiple attacks.
| Claxon |
Putting some ranks into Bluff would make you for a good attempt at Feint, which would deny the enemy Dexterity to your next attack.
To make that method still requires feats, specifically two-weapon feint. Otherwise it's a move action to bluff, which will always preclude you from getting more than one attack.
Edit: And you need Improved Feint to make it a move action instead of a standard. It's a bad deal all around.
| Gregory Connolly |
If you want to be a Rogue, a Scout with all the Tiger Style feats should have an easier time of it. It won't come online until 13th level, but you can do worse than an unarmed striking scout with javelins in the meantime. If you pick up Multiattack you can combine an Unarmed Strike routine with your natural attack routine -2.
| Gwen Smith |
Mocktopuss wrote:Putting some ranks into Bluff would make you for a good attempt at Feint, which would deny the enemy Dexterity to your next attack.To make that method still requires feats, specifically two-weapon feint. Otherwise it's a move action to bluff, which will always preclude you from getting more than one attack.
Edit: And you need Improved Feint to make it a move action instead of a standard. It's a bad deal all around.
The Two-Weapon Feint tree requires you to take a full attack action, and it requires Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Fighting (not Improved Feint).
Two Weapon Feint lets you forgo your first attack to feint to get the target flat-footed against your next attack.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint lets you forgo your first attack to feint to get the target flat-footed until the end of your turn.
FWIW, I had a two-weapon fighter/rogue with Two-Weapon Feint, and I retrained it into Gang Up ("You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning"). This made flanking buddies the most reliable method of getting sneak attack.
| Claxon |
The Two-Weapon Feint tree requires you to take a full attack action, and it requires Combat Expertise and Two Weapon Fighting (not Improved Feint).
Two Weapon Feint lets you forgo your first attack to feint to get the target flat-footed against your next attack.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint lets you forgo your first attack to feint to get the target flat-footed until the end of your turn.
FWIW, I had a two-weapon fighter/rogue with Two-Weapon Feint, and I retrained it into Gang Up ("You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning"). This made flanking buddies the most reliable method of getting sneak attack.
I realize now my post was very unclear. I was just trying to say that to make using bluff/feint worth it you need to go into the two-weapon feint tree. Otherwise you can only feint as a move action with improved feint, which means only one attack. Which sucks.
With improved two-weapon feint you can at the loss of one attack make a full attack and get sneak attack if you successfully feint.
| Alistus |
Swordmaster + Scout + Tengu Claws and Beak = Profit(With an unfortunate waste of a first turn)
| soupturtle |
The best route to consistent sneak attack is the shatter defenses feat (in my humble opinion). That does have the prerequisite of making your target shaken first though. There are many ways to do so, but I'd say the nicest one is the enforcer feat, which requires you to do nonlethal damage. As a natural attack character, it's quite likely that you're going to want to get improved unarmed strike anyway, which solves the nonlethal damage problem for you (although you would have to spend the first round doing unarmed strikes instead of natural attacks). There's also the blade of mercy trait, which by the rules lets you do unarmed damage with bite and claw attacks (even though that makes no sense in terms of the flavor). Note that you don't need to hit for nonlethal all the time, just once to get enforcer to trigger. Also, if you don't like relying on nonlethal damage you could go for something like cornugon smash instead of enforcer to get your intimidate, but usually sneak attackers don't want to use power attack.
| Kahn Zordlon |
It is hit or miss. I played a rogue recently with a str dumped. SA was really the only damage I could do and it was difficult to contribute to enemy wacking. (Traps and utility I exceled at). I currently play a visectionist alchemist with the Master chymist archtype. He uses natural attacks and has an amulet of mighty fists for the agile weapon bonus (add dex to damage). Combined with magic fang, he does decent damage with normal full rounds and 100+ with sneak attack. The second SA-ish build is more fun being more vercitile for me. As for getting SA, the alchemist uses improved invisibility potions in a sipping jacket. (imp. invis from summoner spell list). gl hf.
| Tormsskull |
An alchemist with the Beastmorph and Vivisectionist archetypes eventually gives the alchemist the Pounce ability, and alchemists already get a large number of natural attacks if built for it. Vivisectionist gives them sneak attack damage instead of bombs, and of course, the two stack.
I second this. I'm building a character such as this for a future game. even at low levels, 3 natural attacks at full bonus + sneak attack seems like a great deal.
| Gwen Smith |
If you have two other melee fighters in your party, take Gang Up. Your allies don't actually have to attack the same guy you are: they just have to threaten him in order for you to be considered flanking and thus get your sneak attack.
It's even better if one or more of the melee fighters has a reach weapon or uses Enlarge Person or Lunge.