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Action: Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action (but see “Untrained,” below).
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
So normally, with no action you can make a Knowledge check to identify a creature (DC = 10 + CR, or 5 + CR / 15 + CR depending on rarity), and you can't try it again.
So with Kirin Style, as a swift action you can identify a single creature (DC = 15 + CR, independent of rarity), and you explicitly can try it again in a subsequent combat.
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Is the Knowledge check to identify a creature when using Kirin Style the same as a standard Knowledge check to identify?
If it is, this means that if you want to use Kirin Style (or the Feats down its chain) you have to wait until the second round of combat to make your knowledge check (due to the swift action needed to activated the style), and you'll likely get less information (due to a generally higher DC).
It also likely means that if you fail your Knowledge versus one of a group of similar creatures, you can't try it on any of the other creatures in that group.
If it is not, does that mean you don't get information on the creature when you make your Kirin Style knowledge check (i.e., you only get the benefits stated in the feat: a bonus AC and Saves)?
Also if they are not the same, will a failed standard Knowledge check preclude the ability to identify using Kirin Style? If they're not the same 'thing', I would assume not.
If that is the cases, a standard round would look like this:
Round 1: Swift action to enter Kirin Style, no action to make a Knowledge check (DC = 5/10/15 + CR), receive information if check succeeds
Round 2: Swift action to identify with Kirin Style (DC = 15 + CR), gain benefits if check succeeds
Is that right?
Sounds right. That's why Kirin style is a bit messed up. I have some characters built around it. Of course I properly figured out how to use it after building the characters, so I'm rather stuck with the odd warts of the style. I have ones which also have Lore Warden so there's also Know Thy Enemy, which requires a standard action to do about the same thing.
So I can identify as a free, swift and standard all for different effects.
By the way it is written, it sounds like the bonus from Kirin Style has NOTHING to do with the knowledge check.
That benefit you gain is by reading the monster movements to identify it's "fighting style" so you can use it against him (+2 saves, +2 CA).
While the knowledge check is to recall about legends and myths about that creature, such as troll's regenerate but are vulnerable to fire, basilisks can turn people into stone, dragons can breath fire, etc.
IMO: Two separate checks for two separate mechanics.
The two checks are not the same.
When you encounter a group of <creature> the results of your knowledge check apply to them all. Your Kirin style check applies only to the individual creature of that group that you make it against.
Your knowledge check to identify might tell you that <creature> has a breath weapon that does <breath weapon effect>, while your Kirin style check might tell you that <individual creature> bobs his head just before using his breath weapon (thus getting you the +2 bonus on saving throws).
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I agree with shadowkras 100%.
The Kirin Style check just lets you identify monsters, not their powers or abilities. You gain the bonuses but no other benefits (like additional knowledge).
I have a Kirin Style mindchemist and that's the reading I and every other GM in the local area uses. My sequence is usually:
Round 1: (swift) Enter Kirin Stance
(free) make a standard knowledge check for information
Round 2 (swift) make a pass/fail knowledge check at DC 15+CR to gain Kirin Style bonuses only.
Cool. I agree with everyone above. Just wanted to see if there was any ambiguity.
"Aha! Although I don't remember it's name or it's special abilities, I happen to know the way it fights! This monster has structural weak points in it's armor that I know of because of my extensive research!
I thought it wasn't based on prior knowledge or research at all, but on observation and the interpretation of that observation. The benefits help your defense, not your offense.
Indeed, all the styles are based (somewhat) on martial arts, and something you see a lot on movies is an opponent figuring out the other's techniques by watching the way they move before attacking.
Perception gathers the information, Knowledge (INT) *interprets* the information.
RWE: Photo interpretation of satellite imagery is Knowledge, not Perception.
Snake Style is the one you want if you're going to do it with Sense Motive.
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i agree with loneknave, a check to identify a creature is the same thing as a standard action version based off skill "knowledge (insert here)"
knowledge: "You can use this skill to identify monsters..."
kirin style: " While using this style, you can spend a swift action to make a Knowledge check to identify a single creature..." the only 2 differences is that kirin style automatically uses the "rare monster" dc set, and the feat loses the "and their special powers or vulnerabilities" which im pretty sure is an oversight.
How do you identify a creature's fighting style if you do not identify the creature?
I understand that by RAW it doesn't stack, but it feels kinda silly in practice if you fail the normal identify DC and then pass the Kirin one.
"Aha! Although I don't remember it's name or it's special abilities, I happen to know the way it fights! This monster has structural weak points in it's armor that I know of because of my extensive research!
**next round**
Holy s~@+ it can breathe fire?"
"What was this type of demon's name again." [dodges] "I remember about those wings and the top heavy nature of its mauling grab." [ducks] "Is this the greed one? Malfeasor? Malfeshnor?" [tumbles] "No that's not right." [ki rin strike to the soul gem]. "Give me a minute guys, it'll come to me."
The toughest obscure monster knowledge lore check is the same as the ki-rin style check and most are much easier. It can happen but usually you get the skill knowledge if you get the style.
Okay...so there is some ambiguity.