It says in its description that a creature can do one of two things. does this imply that they can only do those two things. Could a character just full round attack the stomach to kill the creature.
"If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s Statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again."
I'm pretty sure the victim is allowed a full attack. Swallowed whole mentions two types of actions that the victim can do. The victim can cut it's way free as long as it meets the pierce/slash and light condition, and it says that the victim counts as grappled. Under grappled rules the victim is allowed a full attack option.
Are you wanting your character to not escape the creature and attack with a light weapon?
The swallowed character can attack with a light slashing or piercing weapon.
If you do 1/10 of the creature's hps in damage, you have cut free. If you do more damage than that, it would still apply as damage to the creature.
Swallow whole would be a horrible ability if the swallowed creature could simply full attack the creature itself from within (as the stomach's AC would virtually always be lower than the creature's normal AC).
IMO, it's those two things, only.
Are wrote: Swallow whole would be a horrible ability if the swallowed creature could simply full attack the creature itself from within (as the stomach's AC would virtually always be lower than the creature's normal AC).
IMO, it's those two things, only.
Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. Swallow whole on the wizard? Sucks to be that wizard.
Besides. You still get all the negative stuff of being grappled and you get automatic damage on the victim AND if the victim doesn't have a light weapon on him, then even the tank could be in trouble.
Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
As i see it. Swallowing a creature will let them hit you way easier but you can do damage to them from swallowing while attacking someone else.
I'm thinking that maybe they can only do damage while inside the stomach, if they choose to just attack and not cut their way out, with slashing and piercing. So like a monk couldn't punch the creature and kill it while inside. I'm not sure about the wording and it seems like the creature is in a worse position than it would have been if it didn't swallow whole.
The character in question did not want to cut his way out or climb out but just do damage to the creature and kill it.
Note, of course, that the damage done to the stomach also applies to the creature's regular hit points (which is one reason a full-attack seems like overkill; not only are you cutting yourself out in the process, but the creature also gets a lower AC).
Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
I don't think it is overkill. In any case what we should be discussing is RAW (at least in this thread). And as far as I read it I do believe that it is RAW.
My thinking is this:
Swallow whole doesn't mention or even indicate how many attacks we get. Only what requirements we have to live up to.
Swallow whole does mention that the victim counts as grappled. Then I look to the grappled condition. The grappled condition has the exact same requirements on what kind of weapon you can use. And the grappled condition allows the full attack action.
Therefore I think it is quite fair to believe that it is RAW. I even think it is quite fair to believe that it is RAI.
Lifat wrote: I even think it is quite fair to believe that it is RAI. I think it's more likely that it's an oversight (assuming it's RAW; you're presenting a compelling argument that it is). The swallow whole rules didn't change from 3.5 to PF, while the grapple rules changed from allowing one attack to allowing a full attack. It seems unlikely (to me) that the RAI was to nerf swallow whole that much in the process.
Are wrote: Lifat wrote: I even think it is quite fair to believe that it is RAI. I think it's more likely that it's an oversight (assuming it's RAW; you're presenting a compelling argument that it is). The swallow whole rules didn't change from 3.5 to PF, while the grapple rules changed from allowing one attack to allowing a full attack. It seems unlikely (to me) that the RAI was to nerf swallow whole that much in the process.
Wrong. 3.5 had the exact same rules.
Swallow whole was copy pasted and grappling also allowed you to do full attacks.
EDIT: While you are wrong on it being a conversion error I will grant you that I still haven't proven my original point completely. I still have only shown some indications supporting my viewpoints.
Lifat wrote: and grappling also allowed you to do full attacks. Hm. Very odd. For some reason noone I played with was aware of the line "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses" in the 3.5 grapple rules. It's a very strangely written line, too, considering several of the actions listed are actions you couldn't normally make multiple times in a turn (such as activating magic items and casting spells), but that aside..
I guess we played those rules wrong during the entire lifetime of that system :)
In light of that, it might be worth noting that even with our (apparently wrong) rules application of only allowing a single attack, swallow whole was very rarely a relevant ability. I can't recall a single time when someone was in real danger because of it (except one NPC who was already swallowed when we came to the rescue).
Are wrote: Lifat wrote: and grappling also allowed you to do full attacks. Hm. Very odd. For some reason noone I played with was aware of the line "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses" in the 3.5 grapple rules. It's a very strange line, too, considering several of the actions listed are actions you couldn't normally make multiple times in a turn (such as activating magic items and casting spells).
I guess we played those rules wrong during the entire lifetime of that system :)
In light of that, it might be worth noting that even with our (apparently wrong) rules application of only allowing a single attack, swallow whole was very rarely a relevant ability. I can't recall a single time when someone was in real danger because of it.
One of my characters actually died by being swallowed... But it was one of those nastier creatures that had other creatures living inside it that gave me con drain on top of the rest of the damage... AND I was severely damaged before I was swallowed. Luckily the creature was killed immediately after and cut open and I recieved a revivify spell all in the span of a single round. This is 3.5...
I will grant you that swallow whole haven't been too dangerous, especially on high levels, but if you manage to swallow a spellcaster and/or someone who haven't got a light weapon to attack with it actually does become dangerous. Also, even if said character isn't in any real danger, then if he hasn't got a way out of there at least it is one character who is perma controlled free of charge.
Since people keep bringing up RAI, most of the creatures that have the swallow whole ability *normally* use it for swallowing non-sentient food, not adventurers. Sure it stinks when you swallow a kukri-wielding fighter but it's so nice to digest a deer to death without even having to roll each round!
As far as RAW, you do get a full attack but if you don't already have a light weapon in hand you are going to have to take the normal action(s) to retrieve one.
Belafon wrote: Since people keep bringing up RAI, most of the creatures that have the swallow whole ability *normally* use it for swallowing non-sentient food, not adventurers. Sure it stinks when you swallow a kukri-wielding fighter but it's so nice to digest a deer to death without even having to roll each round!
As far as RAW, you do get a full attack but if you don't already have a light weapon in hand you are going to have to take the normal action(s) to retrieve one.
If that Deer has a natural attack that deals slashing or piercing damage, then the Swallower should be prepared for some "indigestion" :P
The safe route is to make sure that what you are swallowing is actually not conscious.
On RAW: Absolutely. You have to spend that move action to draw your light weapon if you aren't already wielding one. That is if you don't have quick draw in which case it is a free action.
I would also add that since we are going by grapple rules to justify the full round attack that you can only use one hand, so if you are dual wielding you still only get the amount of attacks that your BAB allows regardless of the amount of attacks that your off-hand normally can do.
Dont forget that you need light or darkvision to see something in the darkness of a stomach. If you dont have this the stomach has total concealment.
Also, hey, no oxygen. Bring out the suffocation rules. (Most of the time, the damage will kill the swallowee first.)
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
Muscular action closes the hole after the cutter exits. (this is a fairly generic part of virtually every bestiary critter statblock that uses the swallow attack.) The Swallow whole attack can still be used.
LazarX wrote: Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
Muscular action closes the hole after the cutter exits. (this is a fairly generic part of virtually every bestiary critter statblock that uses the swallow attack.) The Swallow whole attack can still be used. I'm afraid RAW doesn't support this LazarX. At least not in pathfinder. The swallow whole ability specifically note that if a creature has cut it's way out, then the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again before the damage has been healed.
LazarX wrote: Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
Muscular action closes the hole after the cutter exits. (this is a fairly generic part of virtually every bestiary critter statblock that uses the swallow attack.) The Swallow whole attack can still be used. Eh, I've run/played against swallow whole monsters pretty often (mostly giant frogs, purple worms, & remorhaz) and haven't yet run nor fought a monster who auto-closed their gut wound after such an escape. Maybe we just use different monsters.
blahpers wrote: LazarX wrote: Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
Muscular action closes the hole after the cutter exits. (this is a fairly generic part of virtually every bestiary critter statblock that uses the swallow attack.) The Swallow whole attack can still be used. Eh, I've run/played against swallow whole monsters pretty often (mostly giant frogs, purple worms, & remorhaz) and haven't yet run nor fought a monster who auto-closed their gut wound after such an escape. Maybe we just use different monsters. Actually I think the reason LazarX believes it to function like this is because 3.5 swallow whole didn't have the same restriction. In 3.5 I do believe that it was RAW to let the creature swallow a new creature immediately after without the need of the wound getting healed up.
EDIT: YUP! LazarX's way of running swallow whole lines up perfectly with how it was run in 3.5. See "here" for proof.
Lifat wrote: Actually I think the reason LazarX believes it to function like this is because 3.5 swallow whole didn't have the same restriction. In 3.5 I do believe that it was RAW to let the creature swallow a new creature immediately after without the need of the wound getting healed up.
EDIT: YUP! LazarX's way of running swallow whole lines up perfectly with how it was run in 3.5. See "here" for proof.
Could be. I never GM'd 3.5 and don't use its rules for anything.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lifat wrote: blahpers wrote: LazarX wrote: Are wrote: Lifat wrote: Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. And it does hurt. Quite a lot, in fact. The big tank will likely be out and about within seconds, and the creature won't be able to use its swallow whole ability again until the stomach heals.. which is likely days away at least, unless the creature is in the company of a healer.
Giving the tank the ability to full attack from inside would just be overkill.
Muscular action closes the hole after the cutter exits. (this is a fairly generic part of virtually every bestiary critter statblock that uses the swallow attack.) The Swallow whole attack can still be used. Eh, I've run/played against swallow whole monsters pretty often (mostly giant frogs, purple worms, & remorhaz) and haven't yet run nor fought a monster who auto-closed their gut wound after such an escape. Maybe we just use different monsters. Actually I think the reason LazarX believes it to function like this is because 3.5 swallow whole didn't have the same restriction. In 3.5 I do believe that it was RAW to let the creature swallow a new creature immediately after without the need of the wound getting healed up.
EDIT: YUP! LazarX's way of running swallow whole lines up perfectly with how it was run in 3.5. See "here" for proof. Could be. I've only had two sessions of game play where I had to deal with it at all. First was during a Living Greyhawk run where one of our party members got swallowed by a Dire Crocodile but it was reversed when the Judge running it realised that he was running the slot two tiers higher than he should have. The second was during a Living Force event but instead of cutting our comrade out of the space worm who'd swallowed him, I used the Force and a Force Point to do so, although I had to place myself right in front of the monster's mouth to do so.
Only had to deal with it once or twice? I had a character that got eaten 10 times over 4 levels of gameplay (lvl 9-13)... The only reason I stopped getting eaten was because I finally got a ring of freedom. This was back in 3.5 days though.. In pathfinder I've only ever been close to getting eaten.
Lifat wrote: Only had to deal with it once or twice? I had a character that got eaten 10 times over 4 levels of gameplay (lvl 9-13)... The only reason I stopped getting eaten was because I finally got a ring of freedom. This was back in 3.5 days though.. In pathfinder I've only ever been close to getting eaten. Wow. Have you considered wearing foul-tasting cologne?
blahpers wrote: Lifat wrote: Only had to deal with it once or twice? I had a character that got eaten 10 times over 4 levels of gameplay (lvl 9-13)... The only reason I stopped getting eaten was because I finally got a ring of freedom. This was back in 3.5 days though.. In pathfinder I've only ever been close to getting eaten. Wow. Have you considered wearing foul-tasting cologne? Would NOT work. Most of the things that ate him was creatures that would not care about smells. Besides the character in question was completely insane and incapable of thinking that far. He was the guy that birthed an entire new strategy at our gaming table... If I blow up EVERYTHING I will also hit the enemy! (yes he was an evocer). Luckily the group had a more sensible caster that made sure the group didn't take damage from being blown up, which is why the group accepted my characters tactics. (or lack thereof :D)
Are wrote: "Swallow whole would be a horrible ability if the swallowed creature could simply full attack the creature itself from within (as the stomach's AC would virtually always be lower than the creature's normal AC)." I personally agree. I have no read the full content of this page, but in my opinion the character in question who was swallowed should also have the Staggered Condition.
Lifat wrote: Are wrote: Swallow whole would be a horrible ability if the swallowed creature could simply full attack the creature itself from within (as the stomach's AC would virtually always be lower than the creature's normal AC).
IMO, it's those two things, only.
Swallow whole on the big tank should hurt imo. Swallow whole on the wizard? Sucks to be that wizard.
Besides. You still get all the negative stuff of being grappled and you get automatic damage on the victim AND if the victim doesn't have a light weapon on him, then even the tank could be in trouble.
Swallow all if it doesn't allow to do damage the inside not only with light slashing or pircing weapons, is OVERKILLING!
Take only this example(played yesterday):
Rise of the Runelords - Spires of Xin-Shalast - Pinnacle of Avarice
Encounter with Viorian and 3 Wardens of Thunder.
Druid summons a T-Rex; T-Rex attacks a giant; oooopps giant gone; the next one; ooops gone too. (Not to mention that instead of the giants could have been Viorian itself).
Mmm if a CR9 that can easily kills 3 CR14 and 1 CR18 is not overkilling, I can't imagine what could it be...
Swallow all, if it is really not possible to damage the inside other than with a light slashing or pircing weapon, can practically kill every enemy that doen't have a dagger listed in their equipment, from the weakest to the adventure boss!
Did you know Wardens of Thunder have continuous Freedom of Movement? Because that makes them immune to grapple. Viorian has a Ring of Freedom of Movement for the same effect.
Swallow whole takes two rounds to fully work. In order to swallow whole the creature must start with the victim already grappled at the start of the turn, then make a combat maneuver check to grapple to swallow them. A base T-rex is not nearly kung-fu enough to have the grapple feat to make it as anything less than a standard action. The best case scenario requires it to grapple on AoOs. And the only difference between this and pin is that you can actually still hurt it with this one. When pinned your options are try to break grapple or pray for a ludicrous concentration check.
A base T-rex has a CMB of +32 for grapple. A Warden of Thunder has a base CMD of 46. The T-rex needs to roll 14+, twice, to successfully swallow the giant (if it could somehow bypass freedom of movement). And that's assuming the giant doesn't break the grapple with their +32 CMB versus the T-rex's 39 CMD. I think it comes to a 3.675% chance of all of that happening. Viorian's CMD is similar (45 if the numbers are right).
Finally, module writers are apparently pretty bad at writing in gear for humanoids. Clerics with no backup holy symbols, wizards without backup spell component pouches, and every single @#$%ing giant I passed by looking up these ones doesn't actually have the weapons they're using listed in their equipment. They have their armor and a ring listed, no @#$%ing weapons despite the fact that their attack sequence includes a greatsword and a composite longbow (with no listed strength, because of course).
Honestly, I see the whole thing as an adventurer learning experience. It took my players getting eaten twice before the glaive wielding paladin asked where they could get a light piercing or slashing weapon. They're rolling armor spikes, another player already uses light weapons (TWF), one uses a cestus, one uses size (druid), and I think the last is just screwed (he doesn't plan ahead and probably has no idea how awful the concentration checks in grapple are). Personally one of my first purchases is a sawback cold iron dagger. 7 gold for a knife, saw, and weapon that can bypass some damage reduction. Good survival knife.
Monsters should be built similarly, daggers are dirt cheap. The only natural weapons that wouldn't work (as they're all light) are slams, tails, pincers (weirdly), hooves, tentacles, and wings. Bite is all of them, claw is B and S, Gore is P, Sting is P, Talons are S.
That's one of us Calistrian favorite dirty trick...
*runs away unashamed*
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
