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No, I think we should track it as per the rules.The point went well over your head, BL.
The fact that Nonlethal can do HP damage at all means that it is considered HP damage as far as Power Attack is concerned. (and any other ability unless specifically specified)
Mallecks is arguing that Nonlethal is not HP damage and that we shouldn't even bother keeping track of it. It's something like Rubber Ducks instead.
And?
One step at a time... again.
How do you know that nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage? I'm not arguing the point, I just want to know how YOU know this to be true.
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon.Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Yes, I'm wondering how you apply this. What does this mean? How do I use this to know if damage is hit point damage or not?
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What occurred is literally the check. If you want, then to be a little more verbose:
Power Attack
Hit
Does the effect deal hit point damage?
- The kind of damage being dealt is nonlethal damage
-- Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?
-- Hit point damage is subtracted from hit points
-- Nonlethal does not do this
-No
Power attack damage bonus is not applied.
See, this is how the exact same process works for those of us using the rules correctly:
Power Attack
Does the effect deal hit point damage?
- The kind of damage being dealt is non-lethal damage
--Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?
---Hit point damage (under most circumstances) is deducted from hit points (but sometimes it isn't)
---Non-lethal damage (under most circumstances) is not deducted from hit points (but sometimes it is)
---Honestly, is the only difference between the two's source the -4 to hit the wielder takes to inflict one or the other?
-Yes
Power attack is applied
But really, here's how most people look at it:
Is it doing stat damage/drain or imposing a penalty or condition? No. Then it's hit point damage and Power Attack can apply.
What occurred is literally the check. If you want, then to be a little more verbose:
Power Attack
Hit
Does the effect deal hit point damage?
- The kind of damage being dealt is nonlethal damage
-- Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?
-- Hit point damage is subtracted from hit points
-- Nonlethal does not do this
-No
Power attack damage bonus is not applied.
Except that the bolded part isn't true. There's more to the rules that you didn't quote.
all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
You have to treat the nonlethal damage as lethal damage. Lethal damage is hit point damage. You have to do what this section says, or you aren't following the rules.
Unless there's an exception for when lethal damage doesn't benefit from Power Attack. Or is there a rule somewhere that I'm unaware of where it tells us not to use this part of nonlethal damage?
The rule exists, and it tells us how nonlethal damage acts.
I mean... shouldn't we follow the rules for nonlethal damage when using nonlethal damage? It just kinda makes sense. Unless you've got something you think negates or supersedes that.
Why do you roll d20's for attack rolls? Cause it's in the rule book, right?
The weapon and attack determines the type of damage. Then we follow ALL of the rules for that damage type, unless told otherwise. Basically, I've been waiting for you guys to me that "otherwise", but you haven't. You give a lot of nonsense that it's "already determined", but I don't see how that gets you out of following the rules for nonlethal (and Power Attack). Also, I don't see anywhere where it says "determine now, and it cannot change".
If you want to present your position as RAW, you have to follow the rules.
The rule applies to all nonlethal damage. Not all nonlethal damage meets the requirements, but the rule exists for all nonlethal damage anyways.
If you don't care about RAW, and just want to play your home game with your interpretation, more power to you.
Specific? Really?
What is Nonlethal compared against? Con score? How much Equipment the character is carrying? Pi?
Or is it compared against the character's current HP?
If Nonlethal is not HP, then what is it?
There not arguing Nonlethal being or not being hit point damage as general vs specific. They are arguing as to whether the premise that the specific rule that nonlethal becomes lethal once a target has nonlethal equal to their max hit points would cause power attack to retroactively apply to a damage roll after the roll has been made and any other adjustments such as DR have been accounted for.
There not arguing Nonlethal being or not being hit point damage as general vs specific. They are arguing as to whether the premise that the specific rule that nonlethal becomes lethal once a target has nonlethal equal to their max hit points would cause power attack to retroactively apply to a damage roll after the roll has been made and any other adjustments such as DR have been accounted for.
This is accurate.
The lethal overflow rule compares the nonlethal damage tally vs the total HP of a character.
This rule is not used at all for Power Attack. Power Attack modifies a melee damage roll. There is no nonlethal damage tally or total HP to consider.
Except that that isn't what the rules say.
The rules just say that it applies to hit point damage.
Nonlethal excess damage is hit point damage.
The rules don't tell us that you get to make that determination at a specific time. It just ask "is it hit point damage". And the answer for excess nonlethal is "yes".
So if someone took 10 non-lethal and then delayed the damage for a number of rounds and then when it did hit had taken enough non lethal that it would push them into taking lethal at that point it would suddenly do more damage than it did initally?
Irontruth, I think we can agree that there is no "timing" rule.
If there is no "timing" rule, I think we are left with two options.
1. Bonuses are only added at the "time" of the roll.
2. Bonuses can be added at any point in time.
Do you think that bonuses can be applied to a roll to a turn after the roll takes place?
Edit: talonninja
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So if someone took 10 non-lethal and then delayed the damage for a number of rounds and then when it did hit had taken enough non lethal that it would push them into taking lethal at that point it would suddenly do more damage than it did initally?
Your lost here. It isn't the fact that Nonlethal damage did HP damage at a particular point, it is that it could at any time when Max HP are exceeded with Nonlethal damage.
The damage that Power Attack adds should already be factored in, as it is a weapon attack that does HP damage. It should not matter if it is Lethal or Nonlethal.
The entry saying it "isn't 'real' hp" should be an indicator, as it is a form of HP that is recorded in a different way. It isn't "Stamina" like in Starfinder, nor is it tomato points. It is Nonlethal damage that effects HP.
So if someone took 10 non-lethal and then delayed the damage for a number of rounds and then when it did hit had taken enough non lethal that it would push them into taking lethal at that point it would suddenly do more damage than it did initally?
Remember... this is a big "if"...
If you qualify only damage which ACTUALLY causes a loss of hit points as hit point damage, and disqualify damage only POTENTIALLY causes a loss of hit points...
Then possibly, depending on how the ability is worded. But we'd need to look at how that ability is worded, AND assume that the above is true.
But what I am saying, I am only pointing out as a consequence of that "if" assumption.
And that's the core assumption from Mallecks: nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage because it doesn't cause hit point loss 100% of the time.
Irontruth, I think we can agree that there is no "timing" rule.
If there is no "timing" rule, I think we are left with two options.
1. Bonuses are only added at the "time" of the roll.
2. Bonuses can be added at any point in time.Do you think that bonuses can be applied to a roll to a turn after the roll takes place?
Edit: talonninja
I think that in this forum, and in this thread, we should talk about rules that actually exist.
I think that in this forum, and in this thread, we should talk about rules that actually exist.Irontruth, I think we can agree that there is no "timing" rule.
If there is no "timing" rule, I think we are left with two options.
1. Bonuses are only added at the "time" of the roll.
2. Bonuses can be added at any point in time.Do you think that bonuses can be applied to a roll to a turn after the roll takes place?
Edit: talonninja
Yeah, I'm talking about this one.
Whenever a roll is required, the roll is noted as "d#," with the "#" representing the number of sides on the die. If you need to roll multiple dice of the same type, there will be a number before the "d." For example, if you are required to roll 4d6, you should roll four six-sided dice and add the results together. Sometimes there will be a + or – after the notation, meaning that you add that number to, or subtract it from, the total results of the dice (not to each individual die rolled). Most die rolls in the game use a d20 with a number of modifiers based on the character's skills, his or her abilities, and the situation. Generally speaking, rolling high is better than rolling low. Percentile rolls are a special case, indicated as rolling d%. You can generate a random number in this range by rolling two differently colored ten-sided dice (2d10). Pick one color to represent the tens digit, then roll both dice. If the die chosen to be the tens digit rolls a "4" and the other d10 rolls a "2," then you've generated a 42. A zero on the tens digit die indicates a result from 1 to 9, or 100 if both dice result in a zero. Some d10s are printed with "10," "20," "30," and so on in order to make reading d% rolls easier. Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.
When does the +X or -X no longer apply?
I don't see a specific "timing" rule for rolls in there, or anything about cut-off points.
There is no "game time" that passes when adding Power Attack to the damage roll after it exceeds the target's capacity for nonlethal damage. It's all in the exactly same moment. It's just that we as humans take time to process the information in our real world and have to go through all the mechanics of the game to know what the results are.
We're still modifying the damage roll. Nothing in that regard has changed.
Ok great, the +X or -X apply at all points in time, as there is no timing rule.
When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Turn 1: I attack my target with a light weapon it deals lethal damage.
Turn 2: I choose to use Piranha Strike, the damage roll from the previous turn gets +1 damage.
Irontruth, do you feel this is accurate?
It's almost like you wrote this BEFORE I posted, because I actually accounted for this already. Go back and read it carefully to see if you can spot it.
Either that, or it's your selective reading habits creeping back into your posting.
It's almost like you wrote this BEFORE I posted, because I actually accounted for this already. Go back and read it carefully to see if you can spot it.
Either that, or it's your selective reading habits creeping back into your posting.
Well, I saw you said that no game time passes, but you didn't cite any timing rule, so I'm not sure why you would suggest such a thing.
Do you have a timing rule you would like present that demonstrates that bonuses no longer apply once "game time" passes?
I'm assuming you're saying this because there's text that tells you this. Could you post it please?
It's almost like you wrote this BEFORE I posted, because I actually accounted for this already. Go back and read it carefully to see if you can spot it.
Either that, or it's your selective reading habits creeping back into your posting.
Well, I saw you said that no game time passes, but you didn't cite any timing rule, so I'm not sure why you would suggest such a thing.
Do you have a timing rule you would like present that demonstrates that bonuses no longer apply once "game time" passes?
You're the one that asked and is obsessed with timing. I've already told you I don't have a rule for it... so I'm not sure why you're acting like you "got me".
I guess you're right. You baited me into talking about it, and I fell for it. You're the master debater in this thread.
And you can have that interpretation all you want. It just isn't RAW.
It's almost like you wrote this BEFORE I posted, because I actually accounted for this already. Go back and read it carefully to see if you can spot it.
Either that, or it's your selective reading habits creeping back into your posting.
Well, I saw you said that no game time passes, but you didn't cite any timing rule, so I'm not sure why you would suggest such a thing.
Do you have a timing rule you would like present that demonstrates that bonuses no longer apply once "game time" passes?
You're the one that asked and is obsessed with timing. I've already told you I don't have a rule for it... so I'm not sure why you're acting like you "got me".
I guess you're right. You baited me into talking about it, and I fell for it. You're the master debater in this thread.
Well, you said you can't modify a roll after game time passes but you don't have a rule to back that up. So, you would agree that we can modify rolls after a turn passes?
Sounds like you've got a problem to solve. Let me know when you get it.
idk man, it's your claim about the RAW.
Where did I claim that I had found a rule in the book about timing?
I don't see a specific "timing" rule for rolls in there, or anything about cut-off points.
There is no "game time" that passes when adding Power Attack to the damage roll after it exceeds the target's capacity for nonlethal damage. It's all in the exactly same moment. It's just that we as humans take time to process the information in our real world and have to go through all the mechanics of the game to know what the results are.
We're still modifying the damage roll. Nothing in that regard has changed.
Let me just read this quick..... nope, I don't seem to make much in the way of claims of anything in the book. I give a response to you and the things you're saying. No claims about RAW though.
This is your f+~$ing problem by the way. You're obsessed with "winning" right now. Just f&%#ing read the book. Stop TRYING to be right. Just talk about the rules.
All right, we'll take it from the top.
Can you modify a roll after it happens?
What do you mean by "after it happens"?
Like, do I need to modify it while the die is still physically rolling? Is that what you mean by "during the roll"?
Whenever a roll is required, the roll is noted as "d#," with the "#" representing the number of sides on the die. If you need to roll multiple dice of the same type, there will be a number before the "d." For example, if you are required to roll 4d6, you should roll four six-sided dice and add the results together. Sometimes there will be a + or – after the notation, meaning that you add that number to, or subtract it from, the total results of the dice (not to each individual die rolled). Most die rolls in the game use a d20 with a number of modifiers based on the character's skills, his or her abilities, and the situation. Generally speaking, rolling high is better than rolling low. Percentile rolls are a special case, indicated as rolling d%. You can generate a random number in this range by rolling two differently colored ten-sided dice (2d10). Pick one color to represent the tens digit, then roll both dice. If the die chosen to be the tens digit rolls a "4" and the other d10 rolls a "2," then you've generated a 42. A zero on the tens digit die indicates a result from 1 to 9, or 100 if both dice result in a zero. Some d10s are printed with "10," "20," "30," and so on in order to make reading d% rolls easier. Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.
You roll the dice and modify the results with any + or - numbers. Once you get this total for the first time, can you modify the total result again after that?
And you can have that interpretation all you want. It just isn't RAW.That was never the claim.
The rules are not explicit on the points of contention, so anything anyone does for those are interpretation.
It is equally supported RAW as whatever you do.
Do you have any other problems with viewing nonlethal damage as not hit point damage?
But your timing claim directly contradicts the rules for Power Attack. PA says it applies to hit point damage, you are saying because of this "timing rule" that it doesn't. Except the "timing rule" doesn't exist.
So, what is your evidence that Power Attack doesn't apply?
We are not having a difference of opinion. I just want to know what rule you are referencing that says Power Attack doesn't apply to this hit point damage.
Whenever a roll is required, the roll is noted as "d#," with the "#" representing the number of sides on the die. If you need to roll multiple dice of the same type, there will be a number before the "d." For example, if you are required to roll 4d6, you should roll four six-sided dice and add the results together. Sometimes there will be a + or – after the notation, meaning that you add that number to, or subtract it from, the total results of the dice (not to each individual die rolled). Most die rolls in the game use a d20 with a number of modifiers based on the character's skills, his or her abilities, and the situation. Generally speaking, rolling high is better than rolling low. Percentile rolls are a special case, indicated as rolling d%. You can generate a random number in this range by rolling two differently colored ten-sided dice (2d10). Pick one color to represent the tens digit, then roll both dice. If the die chosen to be the tens digit rolls a "4" and the other d10 rolls a "2," then you've generated a 42. A zero on the tens digit die indicates a result from 1 to 9, or 100 if both dice result in a zero. Some d10s are printed with "10," "20," "30," and so on in order to make reading d% rolls easier. Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.You roll the dice and modify the results with any + or - numbers. Once you get this total for the first time, can you modify the total result again after that?
Player: I rolled a 3, plus my strength bonus of +4, that's 7.
GM: Okay, 7 damage.Player: Oh, I forgot Weapon Specialization, that's 2 more.
GM: Sorry, you had to add that in the first time. Rule says so.
Player: I rolled a 3, plus my strength bonus of +4, that's 7.
GM: Okay, 7 damage.
Player: Oh, I forgot Weapon Specialization, that's 2 more.
GM: Sorry, you had to add that in the first time. Rule says so.
We should assume that all processes are followed correctly.
Let's say Creature attacks Target and succeeds on the attack roll. Target can't take the damage prior to the damage roll being complete.
The logical process:
1. Successful attack roll
2. damage roll
3. target takes damage
that order can't change because each step logically requires the previous step, tough it is possible for steps to come in between.
Example:
Target has DR 5/-.
1. Successful attack roll
2. Damage Roll (Total result 10)
3. Damage reduction Applied (Changes the amount of the damage dealt by the effect to 5, the total result of the damage roll is still 10)
4. Target takes 5 damage from a damage roll of 10.
Would it be possible to modify the total result of the die roll up or down after the damage reduction is applied?
Would it be possible to modify the total result of the die roll up or down after the target takes damage?
That was never the claim.
The rules are not explicit on the points of contention, so anything anyone does for those are interpretation.
It is equally supported RAW as whatever you do.
Do you have any other problems with viewing nonlethal damage as not hit point damage?
I would actually claim that it is RAW that nonlethal damage is not hit point damage based on the effects of hit point damage from the injury and death section. However, I think we should probably at least set our sights on "being consistent within RAW" for now until the issue of what it means to "roll a die" is resolved.
Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled. If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying. When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you’re dead.
Damage is assumed to be hit point damage based on the default assumption established in the damage section.
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
1. Damage doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower.
2. At 0 hit points, you're disabled.3. If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.
4. When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you're dead.
These are the effects of hit point damage as determined by the rules. Nonlethal damage does not apply to any of them.
If. Nonlethal. Is not. HP Damage. Then, what is it? Turkey points? Bacon?
Nonlethal damage is a subtype of damage.
If you feel that my position breaks a rule, please reference the specific rule, and I will try to clear up any confusion.
Except that that can't possibly be true, because the rules for nonlethal state parameters under which it does meet the qualifications for hit point damage. It's literally in the rule book, and if you claim it isn't, you're lying.
We should assume that all processes are followed correctly.
I fully agree, but you keep insisting that we don't follow the rules for nonlethal damage.
Aaaaand... a thousand posts going in circles.