Is nonlethal damage considered hit point damage?


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Irontruth wrote:
Except that that can't possibly be true, because the rules for nonlethal state parameters under which it does meet the qualifications for hit point damage. It's literally in the rule book, and if you claim it isn't, you're lying.

And we're back here again.

The specific overflow rule does state parameters where it could, in your opinion, qualify nonlethal as hit point damage. Even if I were to agree with that, those parameters solely occur at the application of a damage result.

Asking the generic question "Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?" does not include a target, amount of damage, or maximum hp, so there's no reason to include it.

It appears we won't agree on this one. I think you're wrong for including specific rules in scenarios that don't meet their parameters, and you think I'm wrong for excluding specific rules when their parameters aren't met.

Do you have any other issues?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Parameters?

THAT'S IT!!!

Nonlethal damage is Parameter damage....

Or Bacon... Not sure which...


Irontruth wrote:
Mallecks wrote:

We should assume that all processes are followed correctly.

I fully agree, but you keep insisting that we don't follow the rules for nonlethal damage.

All rules are followed in my interpretation. You are claiming I break a rule by citing several rules that don't interact. You claim they interact, but refuse to demonstrate it.

We have this widdled down all the way to what a roll is. I claim that because of the way the roll rule is written, bonuses/penalties to rolls can only happen at the time of the roll. Your most recent claim is that bonuses and penalties can be added after a roll as long as no game time passes.

Did you find any rules that back up the game time requirement or are you sticking with that rolls can be modified at any point in time?


Butt_Luckily wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Except that that can't possibly be true, because the rules for nonlethal state parameters under which it does meet the qualifications for hit point damage. It's literally in the rule book, and if you claim it isn't, you're lying.

And we're back here again.

The specific overflow rule does state parameters where it could, in your opinion, qualify nonlethal as hit point damage. Even if I were to agree with that, those parameters solely occur at the application of a damage result.

Asking the generic question "Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?" does not include a target, amount of damage, or maximum hp, so there's no reason to include it.

It appears we won't agree on this one. I think you're wrong for including specific rules in scenarios that don't meet their parameters, and you think I'm wrong for excluding specific rules when their parameters aren't met.

Do you have any other issues?

If I told you that you only ever added your strength modifier to damage, and never 1 1/2 times, because we need to follow the general rule and not a specific rule, you would find that convincing?


Mallecks wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Mallecks wrote:

We should assume that all processes are followed correctly.

I fully agree, but you keep insisting that we don't follow the rules for nonlethal damage.

All rules are followed in my interpretation. You are claiming I break a rule by citing several rules that don't interact. You claim they interact, but refuse to demonstrate it.

We have this widdled down all the way to what a roll is. I claim that because of the way the roll rule is written, bonuses/penalties to rolls can only happen at the time of the roll. Your most recent claim is that bonuses and penalties can be added after a roll as long as no game time passes.

Did you find any rules that back up the game time requirement or are you sticking with that rolls can be modified at any point in time?

They do interact though. We are talking about damage, and these are damage rules. Why the f~@! would you think you get to ingore damage rules while dealing damage?

Oh right, you ignore things that don't support your argument, that makes sense.


Irontruth wrote:

They do interact though. We are talking about damage, and these are damage rules. Why the f@*% would you think you get to ingore damage rules while dealing damage?

Oh right, you ignore things that don't support your argument, that makes sense.

Right, again. You claim they interact, but won't demonstrate they interact.

Power Attack modifies the damage roll of a melee attack based on the type of damage the effect deals.

Lethal Overflow changes how damage is treated after a target takes the damage.

Damage roll must be complete before the target can take the damage.
The target has to take the damage before lethal overflow can happen.

The only way for them to actually interact, would be for you to modify the damage roll after the target takes the damage. Which, you keep saying is how it works, but won't actually describe it, so I have to ask a bunch of super specific questions to try to analyze it.

So far, we ended up at a claim yes unsubstantiated:

Irontruth wrote:

I don't see a specific "timing" rule for rolls in there, or anything about cut-off points.

There is no "game time" that passes when adding Power Attack to the damage roll after it exceeds the target's capacity for nonlethal damage. It's all in the exactly same moment. It's just that we as humans take time to process the information in our real world and have to go through all the mechanics of the game to know what the results are.

We're still modifying the damage roll. Nothing in that regard has changed.

This implies (but you haven't explicitly stated) that as long as "game time" doesn't pass, you can modify the roll. We both know there is no timing rule, so I don't know why you would think "game time" matters at all.

Do you think a roll can be modified the turn after it happens?


Mallecks wrote:


Right, again. You claim they interact, but won't demonstrate they interact.

I suppose that could be true... if you're b%@&&$& crazy and just ignore the rules that have been posted repeatedly in this thread.


I can claim they interact. And show how.

Power attack with sap.

Nonlethal damage is hit points.

Use power attack.

That's how I see it. Hit a guy harder and he takes more damage.


Remember since non-lethal isn't HP damage it isn't affected by DR.


That isn't true. DR clearly spells out what it doesn't apply to.


Cavall wrote:

I can claim they interact. And show how.

Power attack with sap.

Nonlethal damage is hit points.

Use power attack.

That's how I see it. Hit a guy harder and he takes more damage.

It seems you are talking about nonlethal damage and Power Attack. That isn't the two rules I'm concerned about interacting.

The current point of contention is between two rules, I have provided the relevant text.

Nonlethal Damage wrote:
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
Power Attack wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
willuwontu wrote:
Remember since non-lethal isn't HP damage it isn't affected by DR.

Was this ever demonstrated?

Irontruth wrote:
I suppose that could be true... if you're b$!%#*& crazy and just ignore the rules that have been posted repeatedly in this thread.

There are no rules that say these two other rules interact that I am aware of.

Can you demonstrate that they interact with an example? I'm not sure how it can happen without a modification to the damage roll after it happens, though.


Mallecks wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I can claim they interact. And show how.

Power attack with sap.

Nonlethal damage is hit points.

Use power attack.

That's how I see it. Hit a guy harder and he takes more damage.

It seems you are talking about nonlethal damage and Power Attack. That isn't the two rules I'm concerned about interacting.

The current point of contention is between two rules, I have provided the relevant text.

Nonlethal Damage wrote:
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
Power Attack wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

When you say you aren't talking about power attack and Non Lethal damage and then quote the rules you are talking about and it's power attack and Non Lethal damage... I can't grok how I'm to take you seriously.


Cavall wrote:
When you say you aren't talking about power attack and Non Lethal damage and then quote the rules you are talking about and it's power attack and Non Lethal damage... I can't grok how I'm to take you seriously.

That's true, I guess I could've been more clear.

The current rules in contention is a specific line of the nonlethal damage rules that talk about what happens when a target has nonlethal damage in excess of their total HP and the Power Attack bonus to a melee damage roll.

You seemed to be commenting on the general discussion on whether or not nonlethal damage is hit point damage and it's eligibility for use with Power Attack in any situation.

Can you demonstrate that Power Attack interacts with the lethal overflow rule that I provided in the previous post? AFAIK, Power Attack only effects melee damage rolls and the bonus is granted based on the type of damage the effect deals. Their are rules that determine the type of damage an effect deals, but they are associated with the weapon and not the target.


To me it's simpler than that. It doesn't matter about lethal overflow. It's damage from a weapon. Said damage is hit points. So it's always qualified.

I think this entire things overblown and the solution is simple and clear. If a weapon is non lethal and hits someone it still qualifies. So apply power attack.

I'm pretty sure if a developer was ever to step in, that would be the result. That it's being overbought.


Cavall wrote:

To me it's simpler than that. It doesn't matter about lethal overflow. It's damage from a weapon. Said damage is hit points. So it's always qualified.

I think this entire things overblown and the solution is simple and clear. If a weapon is non lethal and hits someone it still qualifies. So apply power attack.

I'm pretty sure if a developer was ever to step in, that would be the result. That it's being overbought.

The only person it is complicated for is Irontruth, because of his homebrew rules on what rolling and determining the type of damage an effect deals.

As Butt_Luckily explained earlier, the only difference between how you would determine power attack eligibility and how we would determine power attack eligibility is that nonlethal attack is included on the "exception list".


Mallecks wrote:
Cavall wrote:

To me it's simpler than that. It doesn't matter about lethal overflow. It's damage from a weapon. Said damage is hit points. So it's always qualified.

I think this entire things overblown and the solution is simple and clear. If a weapon is non lethal and hits someone it still qualifies. So apply power attack.

I'm pretty sure if a developer was ever to step in, that would be the result. That it's being overbought.

The only person it is complicated for is Irontruth, because of his homebrew rules on what rolling and determining the type of damage an effect deals.

As Butt_Luckily explained earlier, the only difference between how you would determine power attack eligibility and how we would determine power attack eligibility is that nonlethal attack is included on the "exception list".

The problem is that your "exception list" creates these interaction. That's what I've been telling you all along. This whole issue with Power Attack is a result of how YOU approach the rules. You try to pretend that it isn't, and ignore rules that create these problems, but the source is you, not me.

You tell me there are rules that fix this, but we can't seem to find them in the rule book.

Did you find them yet?


DR reduces damage.

Non-lethal damage doesn't deal damage to anything it's just a pool to keep track of.

Therefore Non-lethal isn't reduced by DR.


Have you found a rule that either causes or allows a damage roll to change after the final damage the the target takes is determined?

Irontruth you have stated repeatedly that you know the developers would likely not support rules that required rolls to be in a state of flux after the bonuses and penalties are determined. You are the only one claiming that somehow if the damage ever becomes lethal damage the retroactively power attack applies. But you don't seem to want to agree that if that's the case then we can't apply power attack until any factor such as DR or Ablative barrier that could prevent the target from taking hit point damage resolves.

Instead of continuing to drag this out when you know that neither you or Malleck will every actually find any single definitive rule or ruling on this why not just move on.


Unarmed Fighter, Fighter Archetype wrote:
Tough Guy (Ex): At 3rd level, an unarmed fighter gains DR/— equal to half his fighter level against nonlethal damage or damage taken while he is grappled. This ability replaces armor training 1.


Aye but non-lethal isn't actually dealing any damage, so it being mentioned with the DR is an editorial mistake. It's not damaging anything, therefore DR has no effect on it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

WilluWontu is using the devils advocate position again on an earlier point in the thread that aligns with the interpretation of Galiant Armor's Nonlethal being something other than HP damage.

I have been looking at this from another angle. If the target has Temporary HP, which isn't "real" HP, and Lethal damage does not get through, then ... with this interpretation, ... Lethal damage can't be used with Power Attack either.

Oh My God!!! POWER ATTACK CAN'T BE USED AT ALL BECAUSE NO DAMAGE WILL EVER TAKE DOWN HIT POINTS 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, wait...

It could be that this interpretation is not consistent with how the rest of the rules interact with damage. That this is a narrow view that is looking at a particular stance or phrase and concentrated on it instead of taking the whole entry in context.

The answer to the thread's title is YES. Nonlethal damage is a form of HP damage, which effects HP and is treated as HP when interacting with the target. DR applies, it is healed at the same time as "real" HP, and you can use Power Attack with it and so on...

Are you enjoying your Bacon?


Talonhawke wrote:

Have you found a rule that either causes or allows a damage roll to change after the final damage the the target takes is determined?

Irontruth you have stated repeatedly that you know the developers would likely not support rules that required rolls to be in a state of flux after the bonuses and penalties are determined. You are the only one claiming that somehow if the damage ever becomes lethal damage the retroactively power attack applies. But you don't seem to want to agree that if that's the case then we can't apply power attack until any factor such as DR or Ablative barrier that could prevent the target from taking hit point damage resolves.

Instead of continuing to drag this out when you know that neither you or Malleck will every actually find any single definitive rule or ruling on this why not just move on.

Again, this is all based on looking at the consequences of using "hit point damage is only that which AT THAT TIME causes a loss of hit points", or some similar definition. It is this kind of definition that is used to exclude nonlethal damage from initially benefiting. And my point is that this definition creates all sorts of problems which are not solved by the rules in their current state.

So yes, there are wonky problems with Ablative Barrier as well.

I solve all of this by considering nonlethal damage as hit point damage, and then all of a sudden, these problems are impossible to even exist in the first place. I don't have to solve them, because they cannot possibly arise.


thaX wrote:


I have been looking at this from another angle. If the target has Temporary HP, which isn't "real" HP, and Lethal damage does not get through, then ... with this interpretation, ... Lethal damage can't be used with Power Attack either.

At one point GA was trying to argue that since any Hit Point can be lost, no hit point is "permanent" and therefore all hit points are "temporary".


Irontruth wrote:


The problem is that your "exception list" creates these interaction. That's what I've been telling you all along. This whole issue with Power Attack is a result of how YOU approach the rules. You try to pretend that it isn't, and ignore rules that create these problems, but the source is you, not me.

You tell me there are rules that fix this, but we can't seem to find them in the rule book.

Did you find them yet?

There is nothing to "fix". "Nonlethal damage is hit point damage" does not change how to determine what type of damage an attack deals or how rolling works.

So, you are trying to argue that you can (in either interpretation) modify a roll after it happens AND that you can determine what type of damage an attack deals based on what type of damage the target takes.

We both know your calculation based determination of the damage type is a homebrew rule, so we actually could just stop there.

Also, we both know there isn't a "timing" rule involved in rolling. So, if you think a roll can be modified after it happens, then it should be able to be modified any time after it happens. Do you have a reason why people can't modify rolls a turn after it happens or not?

willuwontu wrote:

DR reduces damage.

Non-lethal damage doesn't deal damage to anything it's just a pool to keep track of.

Therefore Non-lethal isn't reduced by DR

Well, if you are going to assume the default assumption for "damage", then it wouldn't work for nonlethal damage in either interpretation. As we know...

Damage wrote:
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

Nonlethal damage doesn't qualify for this in any interpretation.

Instead, I think most people would agree that Nonlethal damage is a type of damage, so as long as it meets the other requirements for Damage Reduction, it would be reduced.

thaX wrote:

WilluWontu is using the devils advocate position again on an earlier point in the thread that aligns with the interpretation of Galiant Armor's Nonlethal being something other than HP damage.

I have been looking at this from another angle. If the target has Temporary HP, which isn't "real" HP, and Lethal damage does not get through, then ... with this interpretation, ... Lethal damage can't be used with Power Attack either.

Oh My God!!! POWER ATTACK CAN'T BE USED AT ALL BECAUSE NO DAMAGE WILL EVER TAKE DOWN HIT POINTS 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, wait...

It could be that this interpretation is not consistent with how the rest of the rules interact with damage. That this is a narrow view that is looking at a particular stance or phrase and concentrated on it instead of taking the whole entry in context.

The answer to the thread's title is YES. Nonlethal damage is a form of HP damage, which effects HP and is treated as HP when interacting with the target. DR applies, it is healed at the same time as "real" HP, and you can use Power Attack with it and so on...

Are you enjoying your Bacon?

thaX, most of this thread (outside of Irontruth trying to reconcile his homebrew rules with the "nonlethal damage is not hit point damage") has been discussing the merits of the interpretation of the rules that "Nonlethal damage is not hit point damage."

Nonlethal damage is never defined as hit point damage in the rules, and it doesn't cause any of the effects of hit point damage as laid out in the Injury and Death section of the rules.

I understand what your position is. Are you willing to understand what mine is? You don't have to agree that it "should be the way that it is played", but can you at least agree that it is an "acceptable" way to play?

talonhawke wrote:
Instead of continuing to drag this out when you know that neither you or Malleck will every actually find any single definitive rule or ruling on this why not just move on.

I have tried moving on several times. Even if his homebrew rules were the actual rules, my position would still be logically consistent in granting the bonus. So, I'm not sure why he's continuing to argue the point.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mallecks wrote:

thaX, most of this thread (outside of Irontruth trying to reconcile his homebrew rules with the "nonlethal damage is not hit point damage") has been discussing the merits of the interpretation of the rules that "Nonlethal damage is not hit point damage."

Nonlethal damage is never defined as hit point damage in the rules, and it doesn't cause any of the effects of hit point damage as laid out in the Injury and Death section of the rules.

I understand what your position is. Are you willing to understand what mine is? You don't have to agree that it "should be the way that it is played", but can you at least agree that it is an "acceptable" way to play?

First point. Irontruth is not homebrewing, he is trying to make a point about this interpretation. He is running off this idea as if Nonlethal was not HP, but somehow is still Damage.

Second point. It is, when it says it isn't actual HP, but a different type of HP. It never says it isn't damage, like you want it to be, or a form of damage that is anything but HP damage. (Like your Bacon damage)

Third point. I understand it, but it breaks the rules and can not be followed.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, Mallecks, here is a question for you.

Do you agree with Gallant Armor that Nonlethal damage can not be used with Power Attack and similar feats and abilities that effect or does damage (to HP)?

If you do, this is the reason me and Irontruth are arguing the point. If not, what do you agree with him about?


thaX wrote:


First point. Irontruth is not homebrewing, he is trying to make a point about this interpretation. He is running off this idea as if Nonlethal was not HP, but somehow is still Damage.

His "running off with the idea" requires 1 homebrew rule and 1 different interpretation for what a "roll" is.

1. Rolls can be modified after it happens
2. The type of damage an attack deals is determined by what happens to the target.

For the first, we agree there is no timing rule. So, if he's saying a roll can be modified after the roll, there is zero guidance on "how long" after the roll. So, what stops a player from modifying a roll the turn after it happens?

For the second, this is straight up homebrew nonsense. None of the rules that determine the type of damage an attack deals has anything to do with the target. Under Irontruth's calculation based determination, you would not actually know what type of damage the attack deals until after it happens.

thaX wrote:
Second point. It is, when it says it isn't actual HP, but a different type of HP. It never says it isn't damage, like you want it to be, or a form of damage that is anything but HP damage. (Like your Bacon damage)

It doesn't say anything that like that. Here's what it actually says...

Nonlethal wrote:
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

It doesn't say anything about whether or not it is hit points. What it does say is that it is not "real" damage.

So, maybe it would be best to say that Damage is broken down into two categories.

"real" damage and not "real" damage.

not "real" damage is a category that contains nonlethal damage.
"real" damage is a category that contains HP damage and ability damage.

thaX wrote:
Third point. I understand it, but it breaks the rules and can not be followed.

Which rule is broken?

thax wrote:

So, Mallecks, here is a question for you.

Do you agree with Gallant Armor that Nonlethal damage can not be used with Power Attack and similar feats and abilities that effect or does damage (to HP)?

If you do, this is the reason me and Irontruth are arguing the point. If not, what do you agree with him about?

Nonlethal would not be eligible for Power Attack, Piranha Strike, and Deadly Aim. Irontruth claims this breaks the rules, but has so far failed to demonstrate that these rules are able to interact in a way that breaks the rules. Based on the conversation so far, it would require the two homebrew rules cited above. Well, I guess you could say 1 home brew rule and 1 interpretation of what "rolling" is, but I feel that an interpretation that allows you to modify rolls after they happen creates many problems that make the game unplayable.


Irontruth wrote:
If I told you that you only ever added your strength modifier to damage, and never 1 1/2 times, because we need to follow the general rule and not a specific rule, you would find that convincing?

I never said nonlethal damage is never hit point damage. I said that whatever your interpretation of the overflow rule doesn't matter in relation to power attack.

This example is not totally analagous, but I think we can try to press forward. If asked "How much of your strength bonus should be included on a damage roll?", the answer is 1x, because it is asked in a generic way.

Sure, you could throw in your conditionals in the answer, and we can do the same for nonlethal.

1x, unless it is wielded in two hands, then 1.5x

Similarly, with your interpretation of nonlethal overflow:

Its not hit point damage, unless it deals an excess amount over the targets maximum hit points, then it is.

When you ask the question "Is nonlethal damage hit point damage?", there is no amount of damage, no maximum hp.

You could even ask "Is 1d8 nonlethal damage hit point damage?" and the answer is no. There is no amount of damage or maximum hp. If you asked, "Is 10 nonlethal damage against a target with 20 hp, 15 nonlethal damage, and no damage reduction hit point damage?", then, with your interpretation, the answer would be yes. However, this kind of question is not asked by power attack.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mallecks wrote:
Stuff

He is running off of GA's homebrew/interpretation. Irontruth, feel free to pop in on this.

Second... Look at it again.

CRB sixth printing, page 191 wrote:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal

nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being
exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take
nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much
you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal
damage number from your current hit points. It is not
“real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage
equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see
below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you
fall unconscious.

It says it isn't "real" damage, but it doesn't say that it is not damage at all. Do you see the distinction? Your assessment says Nonlethal is nothing, that it is something akin to Bacon points.

It is still damage, but something different happens other than death and dying. You can still do things you can do with Lethal damage, nothing on that front changes. This is what we are trying to tell you, B. lucky, GA and others that are looking at this phrase from Power Attack about dealing HP damage. That feat never meant to exclude Nonlethal damage.

Third is that all those things that you and Irontruth have come up with, those issues don't exist except when you interpret the rules in just this way. Your breaking the rules by inventing new ones.

You know what goes good with Bacon? Eggs.


Mallecks wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


The problem is that your "exception list" creates these interaction. That's what I've been telling you all along. This whole issue with Power Attack is a result of how YOU approach the rules. You try to pretend that it isn't, and ignore rules that create these problems, but the source is you, not me.

You tell me there are rules that fix this, but we can't seem to find them in the rule book.

Did you find them yet?

There is nothing to "fix". "Nonlethal damage is hit point damage" does not change how to determine what type of damage an attack deals or how rolling works.

So, you are trying to argue that you can (in either interpretation) modify a roll after it happens AND that you can determine what type of damage an attack deals based on what type of damage the target takes.

We both know your calculation based determination of the damage type is a homebrew rule, so we actually could just stop there.

Also, we both know there isn't a "timing" rule involved in rolling. So, if you think a roll can be modified after it happens, then it should be able to be modified any time after it happens. Do you have a reason why people can't modify rolls a turn after it happens or not?

willuwontu wrote:

DR reduces damage.

Non-lethal damage doesn't deal damage to anything it's just a pool to keep track of.

Therefore Non-lethal isn't reduced by DR

Well, if you are going to assume the default assumption for "damage", then it wouldn't work for nonlethal damage in either interpretation. As we know...

Damage wrote:
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

Nonlethal damage doesn't qualify for this in any interpretation.

Instead, I think most people would agree that Nonlethal damage is a type of damage, so as long as it meets the other requirements for Damage Reduction, it would be reduced.

thaX wrote:
WilluWontu is using the devils advocate position again on an earlier point in the thread that aligns with the
...

All I'm saying, is that if an attack deals hit point damage (which nonlethal in excess of the targets capacity is definitely hit point damage, even in your world) than Power Attack applies.

I'm willing to hear a justification for why this isn't true, but everything you've brought up doesn't actually change whether the attack is dealing the damage, or whether it is hit point damage, or whether Power Attack applies to hit point damage or not.

Your interpretation means that we don't apply PA to hit point damage. This is obviously incorrect within the context of the rules.

Remember, my claim is that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. I concur that this is not explicit in the rules, but it provides us with zero complications, and no weird issues that come up.

Your claim is that nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage. I'm merely pointing out that this creates a weird situation with Power Attack. You tell me it's solved, but you don't actually solve it with anything in the rules.

Feel free to show me one of the following:
1) the damage doesn't come from the attack (it has some other source)
2) the damage isn't hit point damage
3) Power Attack excludes some form of hit point damage
4) There is a timing cut-off for when a modifier can and cannot apply

Show me IN THE RULES where one of those is true, and you're golden. But all your arguments so far are attempts to get me to talk about things not in the rules.

If you don't care about convincing me, well... no one is forcing you to keep posting.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Butt_Luckily wrote:
stuff

Nonlethal interacts with HP, and HP matter in relation to Nonlethal damage. Yes, it is a form of HP. Why would it not be?

To clarify, HP as defined by the game is a measure of how much the character can take and still be standing upright. Nonlethal is another status of HP that has a different state that the character goes into other than Dying or Death. It has no different quantifiers for use as Lethal Damage when it comes to feats and abilities. It shouldn't even be a question.


Irontruth wrote:
All I'm saying, is that if an attack deals hit point damage (which nonlethal in excess of the targets capacity is definitely hit point damage, even in your world) than Power Attack applies.

You are wrong immediately out of the gate. The rules do not support your homebrew calculation based determination of what type of damage an attack deals.

This is rule I'm using.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage wrote:
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

There's a bunch of them, this is an example.

Here's another example of where your homebrew calculation breaks down a little.

Target is an Invulnerable Rager with DR2/- (DR4/Lethal) with an Ablative Barrier up.

Creature attacks Target and gets a 5 on the damage roll. Damage Reduction reduces this to 3. Ablative Barrier changes it to nonlethal damage.

According to you, because the Target took nonlethal damage that's the type of damage dealt by the attack, so DR wasn't correctly applied.


thaX wrote:
Mallecks wrote:
Stuff

He is running off of GA's homebrew/interpretation. Irontruth, feel free to pop in on this.

Second... Look at it again.

CRB sixth printing, page 191 wrote:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal

nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being
exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take
nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much
you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal
damage number from your current hit points. It is not
“real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage
equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see
below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you
fall unconscious.

It says it isn't "real" damage, but it doesn't say that it is not damage at all. Do you see the distinction? Your assessment says Nonlethal is nothing, that it is something akin to Bacon points.

It is still damage, but something different happens other than death and dying. You can still do things you can do with Lethal damage, nothing on that front changes. This is what we are trying to tell you, B. lucky, GA and others that are looking at this phrase from Power Attack about dealing HP damage. That feat never meant to exclude Nonlethal damage.

Third is that all those things that you and Irontruth have come up with, those issues don't exist except when you interpret the rules in just this way. Your breaking the rules by inventing new ones.

You know what goes good with Bacon? Eggs.

I specifically said that Nonlethal Damage is a category of damage. Why would you take that to mean I am saying it isn't damage at all? I literally said the opposite of that.

thaX wrote:

Nonlethal interacts with HP, and HP matter in relation to Nonlethal damage. Yes, it is a form of HP. Why would it not be?

To clarify, HP as defined by the game is a measure of how much the character can take and still be standing upright. Nonlethal is another status of HP that has a different state that the character goes into other than Dying or Death. It has no different quantifiers for use as Lethal Damage when it comes to feats and abilities. It shouldn't even be a question.

Nonlethal doesn't interact with HP. Nonlethal is compared against the current and total HP values. Comparison is not an interaction.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
Nonlethal doesn't interact with HP. Nonlethal is compared against the current and total HP values. Comparison is not an interaction.

You say that it is damage before this, then say this, which means that it isn't damage.

This is what you are saying.

If it doesn't have anything to do with HP, why track it at all? You are saying that it is Nothing. That it is Bacon Points, or Salad Dressing, or something like Snowflake power.

I ask you again. If it isn't HP damage, then what is it?


Mallecks wrote:

This is rule I'm using.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage wrote:
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

What part of this rule tells you that nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage?

And how does this rule apply to weapons that always deal nonlethal damage?


Irontruth wrote:
What part of this rule tells you that nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage?

It doesn't. This rule is being used to determine the type of damage the attack deals is nonlethal.

This is an example of what type of rule you should be using in a "regular" game. Although, I understand if you want to continue using your homebrew calculation based determination of what the target takes. You've probably been playing that way for a while.

Here's the rule I'm using to determine nonlethal damage isn't hit point damage:

Effects of Hit Point Damage wrote:

Damage doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you're disabled.

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.

When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you're dead.

This rule defines the effects that hit point damage.

At the very least, if something is hit point damage, it has to do these things.

Nonlethal damage doesn't do any of these things.

Edit:

Irontruth wrote:
And how does this rule apply to weapons that always deal nonlethal damage?

That's an example of such a rule. There are several. The one for nonlethal weapons is the Nonlethal weapon quality....

Nonlethal wrote:
These weapons deal nonlethal damage


I don't see anything in what you quoted that actually defines what nonlethal is or isn't. I find it supremely amusing that you aren't quoting those rules.

Basically you're trying to convince me that you're position is RAW by ignoring the rules of how nonlethal works.

If you haven't figured out by now, that isn't going to sell me on your position.


Irontruth wrote:

I don't see anything in what you quoted that actually defines what nonlethal is or isn't. I find it supremely amusing that you aren't quoting those rules.

Basically you're trying to convince me that you're position is RAW by ignoring the rules of how nonlethal works.

If you haven't figured out by now, that isn't going to sell me on your position.

I showed what the effects of hit point damage are. Nonlethal can't do it. No rules are ignored. So far, you have claimed that Power Attack interacting with the Lethal Overflow rule would grant the Power Attack bonus.

This requires your homebrew rule on determining the type of damage an attack deals and an interpretation of "rolling a die" that allows players to modify them after they happen.

Even if you were to demonstrate these were actually the rules, then I would say that Power Attack rightfully grants its bonus, and my position is logically consistent.

Were you talking about some other nonlethal rule that was being ignored or the lethal overflow rule being ignored in some other way?


Except nonlethal can cause hit point loss. The rules clearly state when and how NONLETHAL damage causes hit point loss. They're in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

You seem to have taken to calling them the "Lethal overflow" rules now, except that's just a bit of underhanded trickery designed to make it seem like they aren't in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE section of the rules. But that is where they are. They are part of the rules of how nonlethal damage works.

Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Edit: I feel pretty satisfied at this point that you can't actually justify it. I might bother to respond at some point in the future if you come up with something new for why you're allowed to ignore rules and call it RAW. I'm sure it'll involve you not reading something.


Irontruth wrote:

Except nonlethal can cause hit point loss. The rules clearly state when and how NONLETHAL damage causes hit point loss. They're in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

You seem to have taken to calling them the "Lethal overflow" rules now, except that's just a bit of underhanded trickery designed to make it seem like they aren't in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE section of the rules. But that is where they are. They are part of the rules of how nonlethal damage works.

Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Edit: I feel pretty satisfied at this point that you can't actually justify it. I might bother to respond at some point in the future if you come up with something new for why you're allowed to ignore rules and call it RAW. I'm sure it'll involve you not reading something.

Nah man it's fine, since non-lethal ignores DR, just use it instead of lethal, and since the damage that's converted to lethal ignore DR because it's not considered lethal when checked, it's super easy to kill people.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Mmmmm.... Bacon!


Irontruth wrote:

Except nonlethal can cause hit point loss. The rules clearly state when and how NONLETHAL damage causes hit point loss. They're in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

You seem to have taken to calling them the "Lethal overflow" rules now, except that's just a bit of underhanded trickery designed to make it seem like they aren't in the NONLETHAL DAMAGE section of the rules. But that is where they are. They are part of the rules of how nonlethal damage works.

Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Edit: I feel pretty satisfied at this point that you can't actually justify it. I might bother to respond at some point in the future if you come up with something new for why you're allowed to ignore rules and call it RAW. I'm sure it'll involve you not reading something.

The lethal overflow rule is in the nonlethal damage section. Calling it nonlethal overflow was confusing to some people, as they thought it was still nonlethal damage.

The rule says that you treat the nonlethal damage as lethal damage. I don't normally consider lethal damage to be nonlethal damage. So when I treat nonlethal damage as lethal damage, I no longer consider it nonlethal damage.

There is no guidance on what it means to "treat" something as something else. We can agree to disagree here.


Irontruth wrote:
Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Nothing is being ignored. It just isn't relevant to Power Attack.

Similar to how the text for power attack is not relevant to a character without the power attack feat.

I do find it interesting that you hold us to different standard for power attack than you yourself use. You repeatedly point out the concern over a target losing hit points from an attack that doesn't deal hit point damage, but consistently dodge the point of an attack that deals hit point damage not causing a loss of hit points.

Why should one be an issue and not the other? Either power attack cares about whether or not the target loses hit points or it doesn't.

I'm also not sure I'd agree with your "can" interpretation. If a feat/ability were added for a character to treat 1 point of Ability Damage as lethal damage, would you agree that Power Attack would then apply to ability damage?


Butt_Luckily wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Nothing is being ignored. It just isn't relevant to Power Attack.

Lol...

"I'm not ignoring it, I'm just [synonym for ignoring] it."


It's fine guys, non-lethal ignores DR and thus there is no need for this argument. Can't power attack with it, oh well, but you can kill anything with it that doesn't have immunity to non-lethal or something else that prevents it from dying (aka regenerate).


Irontruth wrote:

Lol...

"I'm not ignoring it, I'm just [synonym for ignoring] it."

If that's the way you want to read it, then that would be the justification.

willuwontu wrote:
It's fine guys, non-lethal ignores DR and thus there is no need for this argument. Can't power attack with it, oh well, but you can kill anything with it that doesn't have immunity to non-lethal or something else that prevents it from dying (aka regenerate).

This is not suggested by our interpretation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Butt_Luckily wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Feel free to provide justification for why you are selectively choosing to ignore parts of the NONLETHAL DAMAGE rules.

Nothing is being ignored. It just isn't relevant to Power Attack.

Similar to how the text for power attack is not relevant to a character without the power attack feat.

I do find it interesting that you hold us to different standard for power attack than you yourself use. You repeatedly point out the concern over a target losing hit points from an attack that doesn't deal hit point damage, but consistently dodge the point of an attack that deals hit point damage not causing a loss of hit points.

Why should one be an issue and not the other? Either power attack cares about whether or not the target loses hit points or it doesn't.

I'm also not sure I'd agree with your "can" interpretation. If a feat/ability were added for a character to treat 1 point of Ability Damage as lethal damage, would you agree that Power Attack would then apply to ability damage?

Just as you still use Power Attack when Lethal Damage does not reduce HP (because of Temperary HP or DR), you will still use Power Attack with Nonlethal Damage, no matter when or if it reduces "real" HP. This has been Irontruth's point here, not that it matters on a particular instant.

Look, it isn't hard. Both of these are forms of Damage, and the damage dealt is not Ability damage or the like, it is regular Damage. One subtracts from HP while the other measures itself against the other's current status. Both are a form of HP damage, and in extreme cases, Nonlethal turns into Lethal.

The character hits with an attack after factoring in Power Attack, and deals out the damage that includes Power Attack when he hits. This is with Lethal and Nonlethal. Nothing excludes either option in that feat. GA has you thinking that Nonlethal is this mythical bacon pool that is divorced from HP completely, or is somehow damage but not HP damage, or is a tomato? Maybe?

It is what it is. Ability Damage would never be Lethal damage, since Abilities are not HP. Whatever mythical ability that would grant that is poorly written and not in line with the rest of the ruleset.

Power Attack works as written, with both forms of damage (Lethal and Nonlethal), just as all of us has been using it since the CRB came out. GA's interpretation is not going to change that, and I am not breaking any rules when Oops (My PFS character) uses an Earth Breaker with Power Attack while dealing Nonlethal Damage. For anyone to tell me otherwise is nit picking rules and focusing on small parts instead of READING the whole entry and taking it in context with how it is used.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Butt_Luckily wrote:


willuwontu wrote:
It's fine guys, non-lethal ignores DR and thus there is no need for this argument. Can't power attack with it, oh well, but you can kill anything with it that doesn't have immunity to non-lethal or something else that prevents it from dying (aka regenerate).
This is not suggested by our interpretation.

Ninja'd...

Sorry for the double post.

It is a conclusion that is the result of this interpretation, and one that could also be problems for other mentioned interactions in this thread. To simply say that it isn't without any explanation begets my fondness for Bacon.

...

...

...

Baaaaaaaaacon...

Errr... sorry, what was I saying?


thaX wrote:
Just as you still use Power Attack when Lethal Damage does not reduce HP (because of Temperary HP or DR), you will still use Power Attack with Nonlethal Damage, no matter when or if it reduces "real" HP. This has been Irontruth's point here, not that it matters on a particular instant.

Irontruth's point is that, under our definition of hit point damage and his interpretation of nonlethal overflow, the overflow damage should count as hit point damage and qualify for power attack.

If that's how he wants power attack to work, then attacks that do not do hit point damage (because of Temporary HP or DR), should not have the power attack benefit added. This is following HIS suggestion for how to use Power Attack. What you described is more in line with how We think power attack should work. The bonus is applied/not applied totally independent from whatever actually happens to the target.

thaX wrote:
Look, it isn't hard. Both of these are forms of Damage, and the damage dealt is not Ability damage or the like, it is regular Damage. One subtracts from HP while the other measures itself against the other's current status. Both are a form of HP damage, and in extreme cases, Nonlethal turns into Lethal.

Except that, in our view, "one subtracts from HP" is literally the definition of hit point damage. So the one that only measures itself against the other isn't. Because we are currently discussing only our interpretation, there is an assumption of agreement on our definition of hit point damage.

thaX wrote:
The character hits with an attack after factoring in Power Attack, and deals out the damage that includes Power Attack when he hits. This is with Lethal and Nonlethal. Nothing excludes either option in that feat. GA has you thinking that Nonlethal is this mythical bacon pool that is divorced from HP completely, or is somehow damage but not HP damage, or is a tomato? Maybe?

Nonlethal damage is nonlethal damage, and is measured in hit points.

thaX wrote:
Power Attack works as written, with both forms of damage (Lethal and Nonlethal), just as all of us has been using it since the CRB came out. GA's interpretation is not going to change that, and I am not breaking any rules when Oops (My PFS character) uses an Earth Breaker with Power Attack while dealing Nonlethal Damage. For anyone to tell me otherwise is nit picking rules and focusing on small parts instead of READING the whole entry and taking it in context with how it is used.

I have read the whole entry. How would you describe an "exceptionally deadly" nonlethal attack?

In any case, we understand you believe something different. The current discussion is whether or not there is an internal consistency problem with our interpretation.

thaX wrote:
It is a conclusion that is the result of this interpretation

Not really, because DR doesn't mention hit point damage as far as I am aware. Because that is the only difference being introduced, I don't see why any rule that doesn't mention hit point damage would change at all.


Butt_Luckily wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
It's fine guys, non-lethal ignores DR and thus there is no need for this argument. Can't power attack with it, oh well, but you can kill anything with it that doesn't have immunity to non-lethal or something else that prevents it from dying (aka regenerate).
This is not suggested by our interpretation.

So non-lethal damages hit points is your interpretation?

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