I have been out of circulation for awhile. I played Pathfinder during the playtest and then ran a campaign in the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting until 2010. The Wilderlands and Pathfinder are a good coupling. Anyway, I was at GenCon in 2010 and stumbled upon Castles and Crusades. It is a rules light system and runs very smoothly even at high levels. I have had a 3-year long run with a great gaming group however, one is taking a job and is moving, and another is moving across the country for other pursuits. A third player, who is a younger guy, plays with us because his buddy does, but he would prefer Pathfinder. I believe we will lose him as soon as his friend leaves. That is cutting my group down to two players.
The trouble is, there are few gamers out there who play C&C. Most of them are playing Pathfinder and getting them to try something else is difficult. They feel like they are losing options. Anyway, that puts me in the position of having to find new players and in order to do that I may have to go back to Pathfinder.
I am what you would call old school. I have been playing D&D since 1978. My campaigns are mostly low to medium magic. I do not like having magic stores and places in town for buying magic items and I do not like the crafting skills in 3.x or Pathfinder. It makes magic way too accessible; almost no longer a rare thing.
Has anyone here run similar games with Pathfinder and is there an easier way to come up with NPC’s that are balanced and level appropriate without many hours of work? The NPC Guide, is it worth the price? Will it fill in the gaps? Can you run a low magic game with Pathfinder?
I'll leave it to more knowledgeable people than myself to answer the "low magic" question (although it seems to me that simply prohibiting the magic item creation feats, and declaring that there are no magic shops in your game world, would help you substantially in that regard).
As for the NPC Codex, though, I've found it a useful time-saver, well worth buying both in PDF and dead-tree, but you needn't take my word for it. Go to the PRD, click on "NPC Codex" in the left-hand menu, and browse it yourself, to help you decide if it's worth $9.99 for the PDF.
(I've also found useful NPC stat blocks in the NPC Gallery chapter of the GameMastery Guide, which is also in the PRD. I've also found others in various PFRPG modules, some of which are available for free.)
As DM, you are the arbiter.
Low magic can absolutely work in Pathfinder. At mid-to-high levels it might be more of an issue with the defenses of the challenge-rating equivalent monsters, but that can tweaked by DM fiat as well.
I hate "ye old magic shop" and I don't allow it in my games, with a couple of notable exceptions. I have a city in my homebrew campaign that was founded by an archmage, and it is a magic friendly city. There are a handful of wizards/clerics/blacksmiths there who are willing to craft items for the right "price" (not gold... must be trade value of something rare or magic)
Another exception is the hedge-witch in small towns-- sometimes I'll allow the purchase of some low level potions/oils there, along with alchemical items.
I tend to agree that low-medium magic is the way to go. Pathfinder certainly does have the tendency to lead to Monty Hall games with piles of magic items. I do my best to not let that happen.
If you don't like the magic item creation feats, simply disallow them, or only allow them after an epic quest for the knowledge. If your players are on board with you, then it shouldn't matter too much how many tools from the toolbox you remove.
No comment on the NPC codex. I don't have it, and I haven't perused it.
I have to say that if you approach Pathfinder with an old school attitude, it actually works quite well. There's plenty of variety in options, including monster options, that running a relatively low magic game or at least one in which any old magic item you want isn't necessarily available works pretty well. And if things don't seem to be balancing out right in play, it's not that hard to adjust as you go along.
You may have to spend more effort keeping the players on course, though, particularly the guy who likes Pathfinder so much. He might have set his expectation to having magic item creation feats available and might be disappointed by your campaign vision. On the other hand, me might just be into the various classes, archetypes, and other character options PF offers and not the magic items at all - only way to find out is to ask what it is about PF that he likes so you can focus on that rather than the distractions of magic item and wealth management.
You could use the option that PFS uses, where item crafting feats are disallowed, and classes that get those feats as bonus feats gain a different feat instead, usually Spell Focus or Extra [Class Feature Uses] as appropriate for the class.
I would suggest at least low-level potions and scrolls be available, as lack of healing other than a divine caster's spells tends to promote the '15-minute adventuring day'.
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You can also search the "Suggestions" for home-brewed systems where people replaced the innumerable "plus" items with built-in bonuses as characters gain levels to solve the low-magic issue. The game has a pre-made presumption that players will obtain "plus" gear that will increase their ability scores, saves, armor class, etc. and scales monsters accordingly. You remove a ton of "fluff" magic that really becomes as mundane as a backpack and can introduce rarer magic without imbalancing the game.
If you're old school and rules-light, I'd recommend sticking to the Core rule book only for gameplay and character creation. Every book thereafter adds dozens more concepts and rules, and it's easy to get overwhelmed if you try to absorb it all at once.
Oh, I love having potions and scrolls easily obtainable. There are all kinds of tricksters in the market place peddling cures and potions. You must have the witch hovel where some old warty crude wrinkle will brew you up some concoction or another. I just do not like the "Ye olde +4 sword maker".
Last time I played, that was kind of whre things were. I started looking for something more rules light. I love C&C but the rules have to be tweaked a great deal. I get tired of house-ruling everything. And when something does not work I end up looking to PF for the answer anyway. I get a headache thinking of all the feats and such, so I am easing myself back in. I want an easy game to run with consistency in rules. No one has done that yet, not in my estimation. So I am looking at PF again. There is rules consistence with PF.
Taking away the magic shop and the item creation feats work wonders for any group. If you really want to go low magic, you can also ban the wizard, cleric, sorcerer, oracle, druid, summoner and witch classes (I think that's all the full casters?) It might seem like this kills any magic at all, but the bard, inquisitor, and magus are splendid casters in their own right and can handle the role of the wizard or cleric just fine, is the way I see it.
NPCs aren't honestly too difficult to make: I suggest the following ->
Make a human NPC of each of the 4 basic archetypes (fighter, mage, healer, rogue). When your group fights NPCs, these are the guys they're fighting. If you're running elves? Remember elves are immune to sleep effects and ghoul paralysis. Fighting against some orcs? Play up their aggressive attitudes. Call their weapons different things even though they're stated the same. Most people will never realize anything has happened.
I've found monsters are generally more interesting for PC battles than high class level NPCs. Many will disagree with me, but... PCs are made with abilities that will never serve them on the battlefield. Bardic knowledge, for instance. It's rough keeping track of all the completely worthless information, and monsters don't really have that flaw. They also come with pre-written CRs, so it's never too difficult to make encounters.
If you're not against spending money, Hero Lab isn't the worst way to make NPC generation simpler. Often enough you can use that program, select a monster, and, if it isn't tough enough, add on extra hit dice or the "advanced" template until it is.
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I am what you would call old school. I have been playing D&D since 1978. My campaigns are mostly low to medium magic. I do not like having magic stores and places in town for buying magic items and I do not like the crafting skills in 3.x or Pathfinder. It makes magic way too accessible; almost no longer a rare thing.
Has anyone here run similar games with Pathfinder and is there an easier way to come up with NPC’s that are balanced and level appropriate without many hours of work? The NPC Guide, is it worth the price? Will it fill in the gaps? Can you run a low magic game with Pathfinder?
I've run low magic games with pathfinder. In fact I've created an extensive set of house rules around it.
Based on your post I assume by low magic you mean low magic items. Not a lack of casters in the party. Not having casters in the party is a whole different issue that will have to be addressed otherwise (and in my opinion with far greater difficulty)
First a bit of background. Pathfinder is not designed for magic to be a rare thing. At least not in the case of the pcs and the things they fight. Magic and magic items are rampant. A significant amount of magic items, and access to magic is a core part of the game and built into the math. You can remove it, but you have to adjust.
I do that with These House rules. Basically I give the players extra bonuses and abilities as they level, instead of giving them magic items. Crafting magic items isnt permitted by normal means (besides scrolls potions and wands) and magic items cannot be bought or sold normally. I've played through fairly length games with it. It works rather well. Players will get one or two, maybe 3 magic items over their whole career. And they will be tailored to the story and the character. You might have Ignus the flaming sword, and that is your signature item as a fighter.
As I said this still depends on having casters in the party. Magical healing/condition removal, and the utility of arcane and divine casting is still more or less necessary to most adventures. But I have also played in games using my system where there were no full casters IE no wizards, clerics, sorcerors or druids, but there were paladins, inquistors, magi, alchemists and bards.
For npcs. First of all I should point out you dont HAVE to buy the npc guide. Its available in the prd. Paizo's pretty awesome about that. There is also the npc database.
No creation time required (though you might need to tweek them a bit for whatever your needs are). For my system (where the npcs wont be carrying all the normal magic items) dont change any of their numbers, (if they have a ring of protection, leave their ac as is) but dont include the magic items listed as loot found when the npcs is defeated, except for plot relavent items, and consumables (potions, scrolls, wands).
Yes, you got it. I want all classes, wizards, clerics, druids, etc. I just got tired of magic items on every street corner. That came with 3.x not PF. Though in order to fix a few things, there was some power creep that PF added. The modules (3.x) just had a lot of them built in. I had players with one magic item, then finding a new one and then switching them out. Sure you will have that, but not that often. I want a campaign that has this flavor I give it, but within the bounds I set.
There is a way to run a more PF light game. Normally this isn't my style and normally I wouldn't advocate it, but it could be something you look into.
Make a cross between C&C and PF. Have the PF classes, but do away with skills overall in favor of the Siege system. Allow rogues to do what Rogues do in C&C. Have the players chart out the next 20 levels and state WHAT FEATS they will have their characters get at each level...hence they will have a FIXED advancement of powers, similar to C&C, but moreso to keep in line with what happens in PF.
This also limits the feats you have to plan and adjust for, and gives you a heads up on what to know indepth in relation to what the players would like.
You can then look up those feats, make sure they check out with your game and then negotiate with them for changes you'd like in their advancement.
As for monsters, since PF uses a fixed CR XP system instead of a flexible CR system like 3.X, you can adjust the monsters much like you did in C&C.
Just a few thoughts.
I'm with you - I much prefer the flavour of worlds/campaigns with low to medium levels of magic. A shop would never have magic items (unless it's a very special case, and it would be kept hidden, behind the counter). It would be a special thing for anyone to wield a magic weapon, and for a person to have two permanent magic items would be very rare.
There's no reason at all you can't use pathfinder for this, though you'll need to make suitable adjustments if using pre-made adventures. If you're creating your own world/adventures, clearly it's less of a problem.
I'd personally raise the minimum caster levels of the assorted magic item creation feats (except probably Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion, as they only produce single-use items), probably by two, and disallow the Master Craftsman feat. I'd also disallow non-specialist casters (Bards, Paladins and Rangers) from magic item creation.
Obviously any house rules like this need to be made clear to players, particularly experienced players, before starting.
Yes, you got it. I want all classes, wizards, clerics, druids, etc. I just got tired of magic items on every street corner. That came with 3.x not PF. Though in order to fix a few things, there was some power creep that PF added. The modules (3.x) just had a lot of them built in. I had players with one magic item, then finding a new one and then switching them out. Sure you will have that, but not that often. I want a campaign that has this flavor I give it, but within the bounds I set.
I'd say there was less power creep in the conversion from 3.5 to pathfinder as there was a push of everyone towards the middle. Druids wild shape was reduced in power, some key wizard and cleric spells were powered down. Fighters, barbarians, bards, and sorcerors all got fairly siginificant boosts. This pushed the core classes towards the middle for the most part (the rogue and the monk got minor boosts but most feel they were left out somewhat). Most of the new pathfinder classes fit somewhere between the fighter and the druid in terms of power, so there isnt alot of power creep. The one exception commonly accepted is the summoner, who if you dont deliberately NOT optimize comes out hyper optimized with little to no effort. (think the most badass druid codzilla from 3.5, thats what you get with the summoner if you just take the seemingly obvious choices for the summoner because you get to pick each and every option). So leaving out the summoner there is actually very little power creep in pathfinder.
As for magic items, I totally agree. There isnt a way for them to feel special if they are a store bought commodity. Hence why i went through the effort of creating my house rules to replace most of them. In my game 2 players (the fighter and war priest both 4th level) recently got magic weapons. A keen (no +x just keen) rapier, for the freehand fighter, and a viscious bastard sword(again no +x) for the War Priest. These weapons are named, they have a history. And they will stay with the player through their career. The incremental +x they would normally be trading these weapons from comes from my heroic distinctions. My hope is that the weapons, and other magic items the party has gotten (everyone now has one magic item) will become a part of the character, the way sting was for frodo, or Glamdring for gandalf.
@Kolkoroni, I agree with you for the most part. I think free cantrips and channeling are power creep though. But the cleric needed fixing and Jason had to keep it backward compatible. All in all, you are right. I really dig your take on magic items. I want to use the name idea and how you make it a part of the character. Very cool ideas. I am feeling better about this possible return to PF.
What I miss from Paizo, since going to C&C, that you do not get from TLG is the sheer size of the peanut gallery of ideas and the excellent customer service. And well, the really cool buttons at GenCon.
@Kolkoroni, I agree with you for the most part. I think free cantrips and channeling are power creep though. But the cleric needed fixing and Jason had to keep it backward compatible. All in all, you are right. I really dig your take on magic items. I want to use the name idea and how you make it a part of the character. Very cool ideas. I am feeling better about this possible return to PF.
What I miss from Paizo, since going to C&C, that you do not get from TLG is the sheer size of the peanut gallery of ideas and the excellent customer service. And well, the really cool buttons at GenCon.
I guess we will disagree about what represents power creep. Both channeling and cantrips are relatively minor abilities designed to aleviate the 15 minute work day. In the grand scheme of things channel isnt a more powerful resource then heal spells, it just means the cleric can use his spells for actual magic instead of being a walking bandaid (a good choice in my view). And I always felt it was a bit silly that a powerful wizard can be literally out of magic for the day. Other then a few silly situations like the create water cleric fountain, or constant spamming detect magic, cantrips dont represent any real power, just the ability to keep doing SOMETHING magical all day long.
I do completely agree that some of paizo's best assets is its community, their ideas, and paizos customer service. I pretty much decided to start runing adventure paths because of the forums dedicated to each one. Its like having a 1000 gms backing me up with ideas, solutions to potential problems, walkthroughs, bonus material, handouts and everything else i can think of.
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3) Enemies are mostly classed humanoids rather than monsters.If you want to run low magic:
1) "Item creation feats are not available in my game."
2) "Magic items can not be bought in shops, only found in my game."Done.
This^
but..
4) Strip out some monster feats reducing to-hit and damage for lower AC players (because on average they will have lower AC/magic defenses) and reduce monster Con scores (reducing HP) to offset reduced PC damage from magic weapons (flaming, X energy, etc) and their reduced chances to hit.
You have to find your own acceptable new CRs and adjust creatures accordingly. Ex: CR4 should have around X hp, X Saves, X AC, X damage according to all your changes. Once you have a fixed range you can eyeball new hp, to-hit and damage values for existing statted creatures pretty quickly. That way you don't have to re-write the whole Bestiary.
Another idea. Instead of giving your PCs gear you could give them magic artifacts with scaling effects.
Normally piling the Big-6 into one item would be OP, but if the player only has 1 item, it's not a problem.
I think it is just matter of me being careful with the magic items and the crafting thing not getting out of hand. Either that or I will just have to up the magic level to match the general tenor of Pathfinder adventures, extra books, and paths. I hate to go through the book powering things down.
I have been out of circulation for awhile. I played Pathfinder during the playtest and then ran a campaign in the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting until 2010. The Wilderlands and Pathfinder are a good coupling. Anyway, I was at GenCon in 2010 and stumbled upon Castles and Crusades. It is a rules light system and runs very smoothly even at high levels. I have had a 3-year long run with a great gaming group however, one is taking a job and is moving, and another is moving across the country for other pursuits. A third player, who is a younger guy, plays with us because his buddy does, but he would prefer Pathfinder. I believe we will lose him as soon as his friend leaves. That is cutting my group down to two players.
The trouble is, there are few gamers out there who play C&C. Most of them are playing Pathfinder and getting them to try something else is difficult. They feel like they are losing options. Anyway, that puts me in the position of having to find new players and in order to do that I may have to go back to Pathfinder.
I am what you would call old school. I have been playing D&D since 1978. My campaigns are mostly low to medium magic. I do not like having magic stores and places in town for buying magic items and I do not like the crafting skills in 3.x or Pathfinder. It makes magic way too accessible; almost no longer a rare thing.
Has anyone here run similar games with Pathfinder and is there an easier way to come up with NPC’s that are balanced and level appropriate without many hours of work? The NPC Guide, is it worth the price? Will it fill in the gaps? Can you run a low magic game with Pathfinder?
Hi Snoring Rock - long time no see. :)
My Pathfinder Curse of the Crimson Throne game does not have magic shops except for simple '+' weapons & armour, just a monthly list of stuff on sale in the city, while item crafting requires rare ingredients & is rarely possible for PCs. I think this works fine. Pathfinder can be adapted to 1e AD&D levels of magic fairly easily. You might want to use Slow Track XP and keep the world mostly at levels 1-10, that's pretty much how Golarion does it by default.NPC stats - I bought the NPC Codex but do not like it; very poor mix of fluff & mechanics IMO, with some really bad design decisions (eg: umpteen Small race NPCs and a severe dearth of humans; umpteen weird exotic NPCs and a severe dearth of basic generic types). OTOH by contrast the 80+ pages of NPC stats in the GameMastery Guide are very
well done and very useful. The GMG also has tons of cool stuff useable in any FRPG - get that. :)
It has been a long time! I have been playing C&C but have become dissatisfied. Too many inconsistencies in the rules. I want rules light but I want the rules to be coherent too. I have the GMG so I will give it a look. I agree about the NPC Guide having too many exotic PCs.
You could run Pathfinder Society games. Caps at 12th level, no item crafting, and easier to find players...
But the default assumption is that the Society makes magic items available...You may not care for it.
It has been a long time! I have been playing C&C but have become dissatisfied. Too many inconsistencies in the rules. I want rules light but I want the rules to be coherent too.
Oh, if you haven't tried the Pathfinder Beginner Box yet, give it a go as its own game - it's one of the few ways to get rules light + pretty comprehensive. It covers levels 1-5, hard to extrapolate beyond that but it can either be used for low level adventuring, or to stat out an E5 type setting where 5th is the cap - I used it that way for my tabletop Yggsburgh game; it would also work well for Wilderlands, maybe with XP awards reduced also, or use slow track from the core rules. You could easily run a year of fortnightly sessions with the PBB.
It has been a long time! I have been playing C&C but have become dissatisfied. Too many inconsistencies in the rules. I want rules light but I want the rules to be coherent too.Oh, if you haven't tried the Pathfinder Beginner Box yet, give it a go as its own game - it's one of the few ways to get rules light + pretty comprehensive. It covers levels 1-5, hard to extrapolate beyond that but it can either be used for low level adventuring, or to stat out an E5 type setting where 5th is the cap - I used it that way for my tabletop Yggsburgh game; it would also work well for Wilderlands, maybe with XP awards reduced also, or use slow track from the core rules. You could easily run a year of fortnightly sessions with the PBB.
+1
Absolutely on this.
In addition, I believe the new printing has the transition book which actually allows you to go up to level 6.
Has anyone here run similar games with Pathfinder and is there an easier way to come up with NPC’s that are balanced and level appropriate without many hours of work? The NPC Guide, is it worth the price? Will it fill in the gaps? Can you run a low magic game with Pathfinder?
I like the option of inherent bonuses - basically giving PCs a level based bonus to saves, armor class, to hit rolls and damage rolls that's roughly in line with what they would have got via items (or perhaps slightly below it, so they can have a few items as well). This keeps their numbers at the appropriate level. For NPCs, I'd just use the stats as written and remove the items (so they're all just slightly more naturally gifted, rather than being boosted by their gear). I'm kind of presuming the simulationist/monsters-use-the-same-rules-as-PCs thing isnt a sacred cow for you?
One issue that needs to be considered is the ability to penetrate DR. I think you can just tie this to PC level too - gradually giving them an innate ability to penetrate ever-more-difficult DR as they become more heroic.
The advantage of ditching the simulationist approach, is this way you can just run adventures basically as written without the maths changing. (The only change required is to allocate a few potions/scrolls/magic items here and there).
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Well...I did have an idea for this once upon a time...
If doing that today, I'd probably grant a scaling attribute bonus at the levels I list 'Cool Trick' and subsequent abilities at, and remove stat-boosting items, but the basic idea is solid, and works fine if applied to PCs and NPCs alike.
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The limiting of "Ye'Olde Magick Shoppe" is easy enough though the settlement system. For the most part unless you are in a big city don't expect to find anything worth more than a few thousand gp. And even then they only have a few items that were sold/traded by other adventures. Not all items at that price point and lower.
As a GM you can even lower that max item gp. If you look in the core book you can see the "average expected PC wealth." If you cut that in half, you should be okay. Limit creatures with specific DR to boss type encounters. If the need for magic items is "rare" then it would not be over powering.
Since you don't mind "single use items" like scrolls and potions, you can put in more of those for the special encounters. Oil of Bless Weapon is a nice way to get a Good-aligned weapon for one fight.
I too remember the days when finding a sword +1 before 6th level or so was a lucky find, and potions were saved for life and death situations. A fighter's damage per swing wasn't much higher at 10th level than it was at 1st. A wizard had so few HP, that he might not cast a spell at all if he thought a monster might survive it and decide to attack him. I love the nostalgia.
The thing is, we can remember those times, but they aren't what makes a game fun. Playing an RPG with your friends is fun. Is a character saving up gold to buy her first cloak of resistance and locating one through a high end merchant actually detracting from how much fun you have? It sounds like you don't have a lot of players to choose from, and could benefit from expanding your gaming boundaries. Not having a group is no fun at all.
Bah, Back when I started gaming we had nothing but a dirty tunic and our wits.
I like the low magic campaigns myself. But many people don't. Some will even refuse to join a GM that wants to run with low magic. My current group is like that. I would prefer a low magic item campaign, but most of the others refuse to consider it. I hate that what used to be a powerful magic sword is now just standard, if a bit expensive, gear.
Me, "You have determined that it is a vicious keen halberd it is also empathically intelligent.
Them, "Meh. I'm not specialized in halberd. I'll just sell if for another plus on my shield."
Me, "sigh..."
The one thing I would suggest is try it at the default rules for a short while. Otherwise you don't really have a good feel for what does or does not need to be changed. Just run a couple of standard modules or part of an AP as written and expected. See what parts you and the players do or do not like.
I've seen several people making a bunch of (what I would call) meaningless changes.
"This is broken. So I got rid of it. That meant I had to change this. This meant those things needed altered also. But then that give me problems with..."
Then I find out they never really tried the baseline game. The original thing wasn't really broken/messed-up/unrealistic/unworkable, it just sounded like it the first time they read it in the book.
Something to be mindful of is if the opponents or situations you tend to use make something almost necessary, you have to take that into consideration. For example I once was in a low magic/wealth campaign. Well the GM also liked golems. He used them at the suggested CR levels but no one had any way to get past their DR. So they were much more lethal than they would have been in a 'standard' campaign.
Another thing to be careful of is the people that say you have to have X magic item because of Y. I read that you have to allow casters to have a magic item that increases their casting stat because everyone has a cloak of resistance so spells will never succeed. Uhmm... not necessarily. You could just get rid of both.
Many of the static plus magic items are like that. Most are opposed by another static plus. The +X weapon is opposed by +Y armor.
I too remember the days when finding a sword +1 before 6th level or so was a lucky find, and potions were saved for life and death situations. A fighter's damage per swing wasn't much higher at 10th level than it was at 1st. A wizard had so few HP, that he might not cast a spell at all if he thought a monster might survive it and decide to attack him. I love the nostalgia.
The thing is, we can remember those times, but they aren't what makes a game fun. Playing an RPG with your friends is fun. Is a character saving up gold to buy her first cloak of resistance and locating one through a high end merchant actually detracting from how much fun you have?
It certainly does detract from the fun I have, personally. A large part of the reason I enjoy RPGs is the spontaneous co-creation of a fantasy world and its inhabitants. "Saving up money to buy some known special thing" is something I do every day, in mundane life. On the other hand, discovering a unique item with mysterious powers in a deep crypt is not something I do in real life, on a typical Saturday. So, for me, the latter feels like world-building, and the former more like, I dunno, a game of Monopoly.
It sounds like you don't have a lot of players to choose from, and could benefit from expanding your gaming boundaries. Not having a group is no fun at all.
Also a good point. I've been reading a bit about the Old School Revival, with games such as Swords and Wizardry, and great essays like Matthew Finch's Quick Primer For Old School Gaming. That all started, what, about 5 years ago? And seems to be going strong. I wonder how much a pool there is these days for full-on retro gaming.
Chivalry & Sorcery, all the way!
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If you want "low magic" which can mean just about whatever you want, try another system. Its been my experience that the culture of PF is one centered on building and customizing PCs. As such there will always be that one character that, if you're solely relying on item drops, won't get what he wants or can use. As such that person will be constantly on the hunt for their items and if they don't come up often will become frustrated.
I can only speak from the experience I've had in my games and you've all probably created better systems than I have, but I've tried a lot of ways to make players feel the awe and wonder of magic items
- unique descriptions using all 5 senses when viewed with Detect Magic, like a druid-blessed bow radiating a verdant aura that smells of spring dew on wildflowers
- specialized naming conventions ripped off from Diablo like armor called Celestial Rose Plate of the Elements meaning that it is divinely flavored, +1 (rose being the weakest in the color scheme) and it gives Endure Elements at will when worn
- elaborate materials and flourishes used in overly fluffy descriptions
At the end of the day my players were generally confused and frustrated until I explained "It's a +1 sword" at which point they'd shrug and decide whether to keep or sell it.
And finally magic for sale does not need to mean there's a shop in town called Magic For Sale and it's essentially a Wal-Mart for magic items, even in a Large City sized settlement. It merely means that items are available to buy, sell or barter. You still have to find them.
If you want magic to be special, make it that way. Sure, the going rate for a +1 longsword is 2000 and that's how much Don Cornelius will charge you because he's a fair and honest Don, but you must first gain an audience with him this day of all days, the day of his daughter's wedding...
And when it finally gets too tedious to listen to the polearm master gripe again about there being no monsters who wield magic halberds and all the side quests mount up just to find a way to buy them, you can either "cave" and hand wave some shopping trips to the bazar or you can switch game systems, or else like me try yet another way to keep magic fresh in the game.
Oh, and I've been playing for a long time too. Not as long as some, longer than others, but long enough to know better. I remember when there were no skills, no PC customizations, heck; barely any rules. While I remember the fun of hanging with my friends in grade school and HS, I am glad to have moved on from those gray days. They have their place and formed a great foundation for PF but for me this is the edition I keep coming back to.
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Me, "You have determined that it is a vicious keen halberd it is also empathically intelligent.
Them, "Meh. I'm not specialized in halberd. I'll just sell if for another plus on my shield."
Me, "sigh..."
I know this is a necroed post, but I just have to respond to this.
If this happened as a GM I would be delighted. Why? because this is a brand new recurring enemy for them to face! The intelligent halberd is slighted at being passed over and is obtained by a weak willed pawn who becomes the legs to carry out it's plan of revenge.
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Me, "You have determined that it is a vicious keen halberd it is also empathically intelligent.
Them, "Meh. I'm not specialized in halberd. I'll just sell if for another plus on my shield."
Me, "sigh..."I know this is a necroed post, but I just have to respond to this.
If this happened as a GM I would be delighted. Why? because this is a brand new recurring enemy for them to face! The intelligent halberd is slighted at being passed over and is obtained by a weak willed pawn who becomes the legs to carry out it's plan of revenge.
Great, so not only is the GM pissed at me for not enthusiastically taking up a weapon that despite being more powerful than my existing weapon will actually result in me being less effective, because I lose the benefits of many of the feats I've taken, but also the flavor of the character's combat style, but he's now going to put another enemy in the game because of it. Sorry GM, next time I'll just take whatever you give me and won't have any direction of my own.
Seriously, the game heavily rewards focus, especially for martial characters. This isn't a problem with the players or with high or low magic, but with game design. Assuming it's a problem at all.
In this case, if the player is enchanting a shield, he's probably playing a sword and board type, which is either very feat intensive or very non-optimal. IF you expect him to drop what he wanted to do and what he'd invested in doing to use the Cool Special Item that you gave him, that means you're not paying attention to what your players want from the game. That's bad GMing.
No, it's not. It's making things challenging, and giving a player choices.
I don't believe in punishing players for specializing, but specializing does have an opportunity cost. This may mean that the exact item you want is harder to obtain than having one appear in loot.
That may mean you have a slightly less good item you can use than the one you find. As for the enemy, it was bound to happen when the item is intelligent. Intelligent weapons are ALWAYS more trouble than they are worth. At least if its on an NPC, it won't be dominating you.
The way I look at it is this: this is a FANTASY role playing game. If my player's fantasy is to be the best FREAKING sickle-master ever in the history of the world and pull off amazing stunts with it, then I won't hold him back. Will there be magic sickles laying around everywhere? Probably not, but I darn well will make sure there are wizards/clerics/Master Crafters willing to work with him on making one or enchanting one. I'll also ensure that he gets access to markets where he can hock less useful items.
Now if that's not everyone's cup of tea then that's fine. However the game's design sets up a reasonable expectation of material gain with things like Item Crafting feats and the Wealth By Level chart. Now I'm the first GM to tell my players that WBL is a guideline and from time to time we might veer off the number but I'll try to keep them competitive to the monsters they are fighting.
I have yet to have a PC design their entire character around an obscure item they have no chance of getting. More often than not I have players willing to go the extra mile to obtain what they want. If they're engaged, why stifle that?
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It's an interesting issue, a game system that has things like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and so on... What should treasure be like? Should it be customized to fit the player's focus? For some, that would feel unrealistic and immersion-breaking. Should it be essentially random, which means sometimes you get treasure that doesn't fit the player's choices? For some, that means pissing over their freedom of choice.
It's a complex issue for sure.
I think personally, I'm more in the "random loot" camp. It just makes the game world seem much more real to me when you're focused on sword and find an awesome...oh, damn, %¤&¤ it's a halberd. Especially with the Ultimate Campaign retraining system in existence now, the character can always replace feats that become useless.
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I'm of the opinion that you cannot make magic item special by making them rare. It's impossible and I'll tell you the reason.
Fantasy saturation.
The modern day is much more saturated with fantasy in the mainstream than the 70's was. Between video games, movies, and Tv series, people of today are already swimming in fantasy realms and magic. You're not going to impress your players by making them have to suffer for their +1 weapon. Rather you'll probably frustrate them. The reason players (like myself) avoid low magic games is because it's a red flag. From experience, it shows a GM that wants to take options away from the player, rather than make magic special. Usuually it's.an adversarial GM that doesn't like the players having nice things, or a GM that cannot handle the options and bonuses the players are bringing to the table. Ive played in and gotten screwed over enough times in low magic campaigns where I will avoid one on principle. Especially if the GM doesn't change any of the expected encounters. Fighting horned devils with only masterwork swords is not fun to players.
If you want magic to be cool, make them interesting. Give them backstories or come up with cool abilities. How about a sword that's flaming in the day time but icy at night? It's both thematic and fun while being useful. Or a sword that was used by the town hero, where you discover their background and it finally culminates to finding their sword. A GM did this once and even though the sword was just a +1 flaming sword, ee got attached to it because of the story. Hell, take a weapon from a book or video game that the players like and make it for them.
Make magic awe inspiring by making them cool. You need to put effort into it because the players of today won't be impressed if you take the easy way out and make magic super rare. Players of today have a larger volume of fantasy in mainstream media, so you need to do a lot more to inspire awe in magic.
Oh I'm very much for random loot. I'm also for random items available in most settlements. However the third piece to the puzzle is crafters.
If the PCs are 3rd level and have picked up a collection of scrolls such as Enhance Water and Alter Self or other spells that they don't anticipate using, I don't have any expectation that they'll keep them and so create avenues for them to sell them. The same goes for the battle axe +1 that they decide no one in the party needs.
Now I might make a scene around the sale of the axe since I want to convey some pathos attached to it - this might even influence their decision to sell. However if there are folks willing to buy their items and those same folks don't have items the PCs want, they can then go and commission the items they DO want from unique NPCs.
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Well said Od one. One thing to add - special effects. Everyone has a flaming sword, but do the flames on everyone's sword also leap out making a Small Fire Elemental 1/day as a Summon Monster spell? This goes along with the fire/ice thing in the post above.
Sometimes the effects don't even have to be all that combat useful to be cool. What about a shield that reeks of garlic when vampires are near; a +1 axe of frost that, when waved over magic writing translates it in frost on the head of the axe a la Read Magic.
Video games are cool because you can SEE flaming nimbuses when your character pulls off a special power with an item or whatever. People geek out when something does something really cool. The only way to translate in Theater of the Mind is to add these kinds of special effects.