I generally have a vague idea of the kind of character I want to play, and then maybe a better idea of what I want over the next 2-3 levels. However, I'm always looking more to the experience that I'm having, rather than the experience I will be having, so the plan can be dropped or altered based on the events I experience over the course of the game. I don't really get too hung up on being 'effective', as I'd rather have cool and interesting things to do. But I'm that guy who will take the combat maneuver and AoO even though I don't have any feats invested in it.
Unless I'm shooting for a prestige class, I don't usually plan ahead. I mean, certainly if there is a feat tree I want, I'll make sure I meet prerequisites, but I wouldn't consider that planning ahead per se. There's always some things I know I want for a character, but I don't plan it out, just sort of make a mental note, "don't forget about X."
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Plans are there for when your adventuring career doesn't have life-defining moments in it. I recently had an archer PC have his life saved by a colleague's animal companion, and the colleague (and the rest of the party) didn't make it out. Sole survivor, saved by a goat. That was too good to turn down... next level was in beastbonded witch so I could have the goat as a familiar. We'll see what happens next...
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Plans are there for when your adventuring career doesn't have life-defining moments in it. I recently had an archer PC have his life saved by a colleague's animal companion, and the colleague (and the rest of the party) didn't make it out. Sole survivor, saved by a goat. That was too good to turn down... next level was in beastbonded witch so I could have the goat as a familiar. We'll see what happens next...
That's a mite condescending. Just because people don't take classes willy nilly based on stuff that happens doesn't mean they're characters don't have "life changing events".
You could just have easily just kept the goat around as your companion instead of taking a level in a class to have him as a familiar.
Plans are there for when your adventuring career doesn't have life-defining moments in it. I recently had an archer PC have his life saved by a colleague's animal companion, and the colleague (and the rest of the party) didn't make it out. Sole survivor, saved by a goat. That was too good to turn down... next level was in beastbonded witch so I could have the goat as a familiar. We'll see what happens next...
That's a mite condescending. Just because people don't take classes willy nilly based on stuff that happens doesn't mean they're characters don't have "life changing events".
You could just have easily just kept the goat around as your companion instead of taking a level in a class to have him as a familiar.
Have to agree on that point. It's not like the character couldn't just adopt the goat without having any kind of supernatural connection to it.
Have to agree on that point. It's not like the character couldn't just adopt the goat without having any kind of supernatural connection to it.Plans are there for when your adventuring career doesn't have life-defining moments in it. I recently had an archer PC have his life saved by a colleague's animal companion, and the colleague (and the rest of the party) didn't make it out. Sole survivor, saved by a goat. That was too good to turn down... next level was in beastbonded witch so I could have the goat as a familiar. We'll see what happens next...
That's a mite condescending. Just because people don't take classes willy nilly based on stuff that happens doesn't mean they're characters don't have "life changing events".
You could just have easily just kept the goat around as your companion instead of taking a level in a class to have him as a familiar.
Then again, it was an archer. They can kind'of afford to screw around. Range combat is really strong in PF.
What is this "plan" you speak of?
Ok joking aside...
I have ideas in mind for where I would like to take the character but they could change at a moments notice.
Had a plan for a specific type of Monk once... that got changed on the spot once I saw my stat rolls. (they were good enough for a different concept that struck me on the spot).
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For home games I work with a concept and just refine based on how many levels seem possible. If I am level 1-3 forever, I stop planning entirely and also stop caring.
If it is pfs or a game where we actually get to do more than play eternal low levels, I plan almost every feat and most of the levels so that I can have fun and be effective at the levels 6+ and not regret it. Casters are an exception. The amount of planning needed, feats required or anything to make an effective caster is more or less nonexistent. Planning just makes them better. Without planning they are just really good. I do not plan casters. I just do a general idea, home game or not.
So far, monks are the main exception to the planning rules. I always have to plan them in intimate detail, level by level, class by class, etc. It is more than easy to screw up a monk or a monk concept by not planning. They are the poster child for system mastery in this game.
For home games I work with a concept and just refine based on how many levels seem possible. If I am level 1-3 forever, I stop planning entirely and also stop caring.
If it is pfs or a game where we actually get to do more than play eternal low levels, I plan almost every feat and most of the levels so that I can have fun and be effective at the levels 6+ and not regret it. Casters are an exception. The amount of planning needed, feats required or anything to make an effective caster is more or less nonexistent. Planning just makes them better. Without planning they are just really good. I do not plan casters. I just do a general idea, home game or not.
So far, monks are the main exception to the planning rules. I always have to plan them in intimate detail, level by level, class by class, etc. It is more than easy to screw up a monk or a monk concept by not planning. They are the poster child for system mastery in this game.
You see there is where we are different. I don't really like high level play and prefer the 'reminder of mortality' low level play has. I can lose interest in a character if they get too powerful very easily.
In our group also there are a couple of us (myself included) who won't start a character at higher than 1st level. The aim being that you earn your achievements and any new character would have some degree of back story/familiarity for the other players.
As a result of these issues most of my characters are 1st-3rd and I'm happy with that.
I agree with DI. Low levels are alright for a time but I want see progress in my character.
What he deems as too long compared to my idea of too long however I am willing to bet are not the same.
You see there is where we are different. I don't really like high level play and prefer the 'reminder of mortality' low level play has. I can lose interest in a character if they get too powerful very easily.
Just play a rogue. Problem solved!
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You see there is where we are different. I don't really like high level play and prefer the 'reminder of mortality' low level play has. I can lose interest in a character if they get too powerful very easily.Just play a rogue. Problem solved!
Let the hate flow through you... give in to your anger... give in to the dark side.
Pretty much what the title says. A lot of folks on the board plan their builds all the way out to 20th level (or 11th level, for PFS players). But, I wonder, do any of you just pick a character concept, draw up the 1st-level sheet, maybe have some idea where you'd go barring unknown campaign-specific influences, but otherwise just play it by ear with no further planning?
I did so when I started 3.0, but with the arrival of dozens of Prestige classes from my first Splat books this changed. Wanting to play Weapon Master, Master Samurai etc. and qualify soon often required some planning in advance.
While Pathfinder isn't as based on Prestige Classes as 3.X was, the feats often seem to come packed in long Feat Chains. Wanting to do one neat trick often will result in having to fleshed out 30% of ones character build. So yeah I started planning my builds out completely.
If I am going for a prestige class (which is an extremely rare occassion), I will "plan" my character up until the first level of the PrC. But most of the time, I wing it based on what happened to the character. Once played a transmuter wizard that got ambushed by a dark naga and nearly killed. So I had the character take a couple levels in fighter to be a bit better at fighting things that managed to get close, and then went into Eldritch Knight.
It all depends on what happens to a character. I don't plan it all out from 1-20. I tried it once, and it didn't make for a fun character. So nothing is chosen as "must haves" or such. I have an idea of what I want the character to be (like a wildshape-focused druid instead of spellcasting, or a crafter wizard), but I don't go and choose what spells to learn at each level, which feat will be taken at this level, etc.
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It depends on the character. If I have a well-defined concept and character goals in mind (to include certain abilities at higher levels, specific feat chains or prestige class(es), etc.) then I'll plan out the advancement in detail. If the concept and goals are more general, then I'll "rough plan," listing a only a few specific choices to consider later on and basing the majority of the character advancement decisions on the campaign events and expectations.
Neither is "right" or "wrong." Rather, it's a matter of "what fits with this character."
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sometimes my groups level mid game, we all plan out our characters so this is a very quick 10-20 minute break in the game for people to eat, drink, use the bathroom. then we hop right back into the game for another 2-4 hours.
when playing with people who build on the fly they tend to take up to an hour to level, because they have to look at all the options, spells, class choices ect.. and that just takes so long that it would end our session to let that happen.
another boon to creating your character ahead of time is that you know exactly what your character can do. you know how much they can hit for, what spell combos you will have access to, and which class features are best before you even hit the table. that allows for combats to flow smoother, because there is less "ok i add this bonus and that bonus, was it +20 to hit? i think so, wait!! no its only a 19 because blah blah blah..." you can still do this when leveling each time, but mid game it becomes a pain and takes even LONGER to have these values preplanned, on top of character creation time.
another boon to creating your character ahead of time is that you know exactly what your character can do. you know how much they can hit for, what spell combos you will have access to, and which class features are best before you even hit the table. that allows for combats to flow smoother, because there is less "ok i add this bonus and that bonus, was it +20 to hit? i think so, wait!! no its only a 19 because blah blah blah..." you can still do this when leveling each time, but mid game it becomes a pain and takes even LONGER to have these values preplanned, on top of character creation time.
That is very true. I recall being incredibly frustrated with one 3.5 game where one of the players ground combat to a halt every single time it was his turn, because he couldn't figure out what his archer's to-hit and damage were. No matter how much the other people at the table tried to help, the guy just couldn't figure it out.
another boon to creating your character ahead of time is that you know exactly what your character can do. you know how much they can hit for, what spell combos you will have access to, and which class features are best before you even hit the table. that allows for combats to flow smoother, because there is less "ok i add this bonus and that bonus, was it +20 to hit? i think so, wait!! no its only a 19 because blah blah blah..." you can still do this when leveling each time, but mid game it becomes a pain and takes even LONGER to have these values preplanned, on top of character creation time.That is very true. I recall being incredibly frustrated with one 3.5 game where one of the players ground combat to a halt every single time it was his turn, because he couldn't figure out what his archer's to-hit and damage were. No matter how much the other people at the table tried to help, the guy just couldn't figure it out.
given the simplistic nature of the math involved...
Perhaps said person had a math disability? (there is a math version of dyslexia FYI).With a player like that I as a fellow human being would have taken the time to help him do the math for his character out of game and even helped him figure out an alternative Character sheet if necessary (The D&D/Pathfinder sheet is far from perfect) as sometimes its just the layout of the information that is causing the confusion.
I always plan, though usually not every level unless its a really complicated build(Like my cleaving/Skulking Slayer). I usually plan until the build "Gels" which varies greatly from build to build.
I tend to plan out my characters simply because of the existence of feat chains. When you gotta take five feats to get to the one you really want, you want to make sure you're going to qualify for all of them.
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Working into a build also makes me feel a sense of accomplishment. Even aside from feat chains, a lot of other classes have ability chains (Superstitious/Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder) which require planning. Not a lot of top tier abilities aside from spells let you just walk into them without at least giving some consideration to your build.
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I tend to plan out my characters simply because of the existence of feat chains. When you gotta take five feats to get to the one you really want, you want to make sure you're going to qualify for all of them.
Yeah that does get a tad annoying... I like the concept of feats. I think the execution was poor however. (They should have scaling effects) heck you only get 10 or so over 20 levels. And giving Fighters one every level is pretty meaningless if 3/4 of them are dedicated to obtaining the 1/4.
Usually just vague plans. I think my record is a plan up to lvl 9 and after that it just kept happening on a whim. My highest level fighter has a bunch of feats that I don't even remember to use.
I generally decide on the character's role and class, but no planning beyond taking a quick glance at feats that might be interesting down the road.
The one exception is my Fighter(Aldori Swordlord)/Aldori Swordlord/Duelist, who I planned out extensively. Getting the class abilities and the feats needed was too complex to play by ear.
It depends the GM that is running the game to me as well as the character concept. Am I making a serious character where every feat, skill point and item design is key to making my character or am I making a character that the idea is just funny to me and would be massive "LOL's" for the table for the pure role playing aspect.
For the Former I tend to map it out if playing a pure caster where as if it is a hybrid class (a class that can fill different roles) I wing it, often changing my characters entire gear list every few levels to keep it fresh: Hell my last serious character I played in 3.5 (need to use that as I've never had a serious Pathfinder character) was a Drow Favored Soul of Selvetarm. Very limited caster. I started that character out as a scythe wielder with medium armor. When I saw that wasn't very effective for what I wanted at level 1-3, I switched him duel to wielding a Mace and a short sword, to twin swords, to a heavy mace and a magical shield. That was just the gear I kept changing. It wasn't till I got to a higher level that I saw I wanted to go Drow Judicator that knew the Dark Speech, so from 8 to 12 (I moved at level 12 so I never saw the build to completion) I started to invest ability scores in areas I needed to raise stats for the feat and purchased a tome for the remainder 2 points I needed. Now a lot of that had more to do with not knowing what I wanted to do as I was new to the D&D world right before PathFinder got BIG. But now that I am running my own game and have a bit more insight I still stay depends on the type of character it is I am playing or the GM.
I usually just plan my feat chain/Insert-Class-Powers out until 11 or 13, but very rarely beyond that unless I'm starting at like level 10. Seems pretty much mandatory to me if you want to have a strong character... it makes me sad when the freshly leveled Fighter at the table decides to just take Dodge because he doesn't have time to weigh his options before we start playing.
Plus I find building characters fun.
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I plan every part of the build except for Equipment for every level I plan to play. And a few more sometimes, just in case.
I sometimes deviate from the theoretical build based on RP circumstances or if I don't "feel" the PC I built after a few sessions of play.
If the changes needed are too great to make the PC reasonably optimized/efficient, I ask my GM for a rebuild (of ability scores usually) so that my new choices (say a 5-level dip in Paladin) do not hamper my PC's efficiency too much (for example, a dip in Paladin for an original build with CHA 8).
Even in such extreme cases, I do my best to explain the changes through the story : Sir Felix looks much better now, more focused and responsible, after finding his way in life through holy service to Erastil (much improved CHA). However, the time spent on learning his new duties and fulfilling them prevented him from doing as much physical exercise as he used to and his physical ability is a bit below its peak now (reduced STR and DEX).
I recently ventured in higher levels (10+) and I now consider that I should also take into account WBL in a PC's build and define my optimized equipment list for every level too.