Iomedae's Tyranny (spoilers?)


Wrath of the Righteous


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So I have a friend telling me that at one point during the adventure, Iomedae kidnaps the party and grills them on questions, and if they answer wrong, she smacks them for sonic damage, basically meaning "your'e screwed if you're not lawful good."

I have a few questions

1.) Is this true
2.) Who thought this up, if so
3.) How the heck is this the actions of a Lawful Good god?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you don't mind spoiling yourself thoroughly, there is a very long thread on this forum about this topic here.

As for your questions:

Spoiler:

1.) Partially. You can be Chaotic Good or Lawful Good or True Neutral and are equally treated by her.
2.) James Jacobs. He rather regrets it by now. <casts Terrible Remorse on James> ^^
3.) It's not, at least to the minds of a lot of people.


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It all depends in how you read it i guess, to me it didn't seem so severe, things get overblown on the internet:)


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It's indeed a bad scene, but it doesn't deserve the drama some people created in that topic.

Grand Lodge

I disagree with the wide take on it being Iomedae being cruel or acting outside of Lawful Good. I think it's more complex than that. But, there has been a lot of controversy, and a lot of good points raised about this situation.

Wait and play it out, and make your own call on it, or check out the threads that will spoil the hell out of it for you and see what folks are saying.

Personally, as a player, I would wait and see how it works in my own game, as having spoilers on this bit might really change how it plays.


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NOTE: This entire post, including the stuff in not spoiler tags, likely contains varying levels of spoilers.

There's a lot of missing context here, and a lot of very strong terminology being used, but that is how some people have felt about the encounter. I disagree with the assessment, but certainly sympathize with it. Iomedae does transport the PCs to her celestial realm with no warning, though I wouldn't exactly call that a "kidnapping". It's important to note that the questions aren't just questions: they're affirmations of the beliefs and attitudes underlying the Crusade to which the characters have sworn themselves. A "wrong answer" means that everyone in the party has said something that is contrary to the motivations and demeanor that the goddess seeks in mortal representatives of her divinely-ordained war— representatives whom she wishes to send to another plane of existence in overt action against a deific power. If their actions betray Iomedae's cause, she may be seen as breaking the mandate of divine non-interference by having the PCs seek to do more than merely recover her herald; knowing that the PCs will behave in a way that she approves of means that they can be trusted to avoid implicating her in the breaking of one of the multiverse's biggest no-no's.

Here's my post on the encounter from an earlier thread, which goes into my thoughts on the implications of the "kidnapping" as an act of a LG deity. Note that my question is "How do we understand these actions as LG, knowing that Iomedae is of that alignment?" rather than "Is Iomedae Evil because of these actions?"; my first assumption is that her alignment is not in question, and that we should aim to comprehend rather than condemn.

Agnelcow's Iomedaen Apologia:
My take, honestly, is that the whole "sonic damage for being wrong" thing is related to the mandates preventing divine interference.

Look at it this way: if gods can just abduct anyone in the world and harm them for not responding as they want, then they whole "don't directly interfere on Golarion" thing seems moot. So what might be an exception to appearing in the presence of mortals? Obviously, you would want it to be limited to those who follow the deity to prevent inter-faith conflicts. But the PCs aren't necessarily Iomedaen. So how do we reconcile?

Well, we know that (traditionally, at least) Mendevian Crusaders are required to swear an oath to Iomedae and fight under her banner; see the Low Templar prestige class for how that may not always be a firm oath. But we nonetheless have a formal oath to serve a goddess's interests in the mortal realm, in a crusade against Abyssal forces appropriating chunks of the Material Plane. As the PCs gain prominence in the crusade, eventually overshadowing the power and influence of Queen Galfrey herself and taking the fight back to the Abyss to undermine the opposition's war efforts, it seems reasonable that the goddess whom they claim to represent in their actions should be allowed to give them a test of faith in order to represent her on a scale beyond the limited military scope of a terrestrial conflict.

Of course, a test of faith where one meets a deity should not be straightforward and strictly positive event (although overcoming the ordeal should prove satisfactory to members of the faith); there must be danger for marked failings in the mortal's faith. The punishment for conflicting ideals within the party or between mortal and deity isn't just Iomedae lashing out in anger or frustration (although she is disappointed, I believe) but a metaphysical retruibution of the multiverse against the PCs for having failed to uphold their sworn faith or cause— notably, a faith or cause to a deity who emphasizes the sanctity of such things. While clearly a painful experience, it's not merely a slap on the wrist intended to reprimand but a necessary part of the rites of Trial By Ordeal which tests the faith to the cause and, notably, is one of the few ways that a deity may physically manifest before her followers (another reason why deities show favor with things like the presence of birds: it's subtle, can have a mundane explanation, and doesn't require putting their faithful at risk should they fail).

As for the abduction with no warning? Communicating divine intentions to mortals is generally handled by the herald, who is missing, or by the church (ie, giving someone higher up on the chain of command a vision instead and having them pass it along), which could allow enemies who infiltrated the faith to root out the deity's intentions and relay them to evil powers; better to call them to your side with no warning so that your graciousness cannot be used as a tool against the crusade's only hope for success. Besides, making it sudden and unheralded fits with the idea that you'll be testing the PCs' faith: to explain what would happen beforehand would allow them to mentally/psychologically/physically prepare themselves, which skews the field in their favor, something which won't happen when they're doing the deity's work in the real world.

So yes, the damage and "abduction" are not very nice, but it's part of the process— not merely Iomedae's, but the entire Multiverse's— when testing the fitness of mortal faithful who wish to serve the divine on a multiplanar scale, especially when their actions may call the attention of rival deities. Iomedae resorts to this kind of trial because it is simple to arrange, given the PCs' level of power and prominence in a crusade undertaken in her name, without violating divine mandate and she believes that they will be able to overcome it (though not necessarily unharmed). Being damaged by the angelic choir is a consequence of being imperfectly faithful to the cause, and is a standard part of this kind of deific meeting. The PCs aren't just four people answering questions; they're four sworn servants of a divinely sanctioned cause trying to properly elucidate the duties enshrined in their oath in order to placate the multiversal enforcers of divine non-interference, so that the deity to whom they are sworn may be permitted to give them aid and direction in a nigh-impossible task.


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agnelcow wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

IIRC, the oath is to serve under Queen Galfrey. Not Iomedae.

Frankly:

Spoiler:
If you pass a mythic trial just for seeing one demigod (Nocticula) kill another demigod (Baphomet), then you should pass a mythic trial or two just by seeing Iomedae, let alone speaking with her when she wants you to go on what is literally a glorified sidequest because one of her minions screwed the pooch.


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The Crusader's Oath begins with "I do so swear under the Light, by the Sword and Scales of Truth and all the fires of heaven, to undertake this holy Crusade."; most of the things being sworn by are capitalized in the oath which, combined with the fact that it is a "holy crusade", suggests that they are not just physical things, but divine concepts. Fittingly, Iomedae is a goddess of the sun (light), war (the fires of heaven), and honor/justice (scales of truth), whose favored weapon is the longsword (sword) and whose church has historically called and closed the various crusades.

Further, the Low Templar Prestige Class (where I grabbed the oath from) follows the text of the oath with "in too many cases, these words are hollow falsehoods, for many of those who take up the sword to crusade in Iomedae’s name do so for their own glory", which implies that the oath is directly related to crusading in Iomedae's name. The class's Path of Darkness/Light ability also mention that the character "must eventually decide how closely he wishes to hew to his oaths to Iomedae"; the only oath mentioned in the class is the Crusader's Oath, again implying that it is an oath to her divine cause.

Finally, the ISWG section on Mendev mentions that all crusaders fight under the banner of Iomedae and whatever regional/knightly order they are a member of. Taken together, I believe this is fairly strong evidence that the Crusader's Oath is an oath to Iomedae, even if it is given to secular authorities or by those who worship other deities.

I definitely agree that being in the goddess's presence should constitute a mythic trial by itself, and James Jacobs mentions it as one on page 5 of Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth even though the adventure's text doesn't say "this encounter counts as a mythic trial" in the story award section, as it does for other mythic trials.


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All that being said, Iomedae's name isn't mentioned once in the text of the oath - yes, she's probably the main deity backing it, but that doesn't mean she's the only one (IIRC, there are several - and if somebody already follows another deity, they shouldn't have to accept Iomedae as their spiritual liege in order to join). In fact, from the Oath:

"I furthermore promise and declare that I shall wage relentless war against the Spawn of the Pit and their manifold legions, as directed by those with charge of this Crusade and whenever opportunity presents, to extirpate and annihilate their execrable race and any who serve them."

That's Galfrey and the chain of command she's at the top of, as Book 2 expressly points out ("Galfrey is the Queen of Mendev and leader of the crusade effort"), which is why she can order the PCs around, promote them, and so on and so forth. Iomedae isn't in charge of it, she's just one of the deities sponsoring it.


It's possible that there might be some inconsistency with how the crusaders are portrayed. After all, Paizo has dozens of writers and not all of them are on the same wavelength.

I would imagine that yes, the crusade is a joint effort between the faiths of Iomedae, Sarenrae, Abadar, Shelyn, Torag, Erastil et cetera...but Iomedae is the "main" patron of crusade, and most of the crusaders worship her. Hence, the oath is commonly seen as one to Iomedae.


Wasn't the church of Iomedae the one(s) to make the call for the first Crusade in the first place? (ie., the church/religion/organization/deity responsible for there even being a Crusade to begin with?) I don't have my books handy to reference.


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Yes, but that does not change the fact that being a member of the Mendevian Crusade in no way requires you to join Iomedae's religion. The sole obligation assumed by swearing the Crusader's Oath is an obligation to fight the demons of the Worldwound under a chain of command defined as 'Queen Galfrey and the duly appointed officers under her', for a minimum of one year. You can do that while having simultaneously pledged your soul to frackin' Asmodeus -- and IIRC, some of the Chelaxians in the Crusade actually have done that.

Being a Mendevian Crusader in no way automatically places you as a member of the Iomedean faithful any more than saying 'So help me God' at the end of the US Armed Forces oath of enlistment means that your chain of command stops at the Pope instead of the President.

To recap:

* The encounter has Iomedae forcibly relocating you to an inescapable position without your informed consent and keeping you there until you have either done everything she wants you to or pissed her off to the point she bodily throws you out after beating you up. 'Kidnapping' is an entirely fair description of this kind of conduct; hell, this is practically the dictionary definition.

* The amount of beating up the PCs can take potentially goes up to 20d6 sonic damage, which is a lethal attack by any remotely sane definition. That's the same amount of d6 as terminal velocity falling damage. Literally dropping the PCs off the top of a mountain could not be more violent than what happens to them.

* Some of the failure conditions that get you smacked are way too easy for a non-spoiled player to walk right into even if they're trying to be nice about it, because the writing of the questions is counter-intuitive as all hell in spots.

* I don't know about you, but any paladin in a game I was running that thought that striking someone with a 20d6 smite was an acceptable behavior for hearing an answer they didn't personally agree with during a theological debate would be suffering a shutdown of paladin powers on the spot. That a paladin deity is written as thinking this sort of thing is appropriate is either one of the more offensive takes on 'Lawful Stupid' I have ever seen as official game canon, or else is an example of towering hypocrisy (remember that hypocrisy is demanding that other people follow rules that you yourself violate).

Look up the posts in the original thread if you're really curious for details, towards the end we were going through the whole encounter almost literally line by line.

Original thread here.


Ok, however the Inner Sea World Guide explicitly says:

Inner Sea World Guide, page 120 wrote:
All crusaders nominally fight under the white-and gold banner of Iomedae and the adopted coat of arms of the Mendevian Crusade.

(boldface emphasis mine). On the same page, it also indicates that it is 'job' of the Iomendaen Heralds to keep track of the various knightly orders and such fighting in the crusade, and likewise (on page 119) to mediate matters between all groups in the best interests of the crusade.

It is not a matter of joining Iomedae's religion, but rather one of agreeing to fight in Her Crusade. Just how seriously each individual crusader takes this oath is another matter entirely, but if you are a crusader, then you are fighting under Iomedae's banner.

Even the page with the Crusader's Oath specifically states:

Inner Sea World Guide page 280 wrote:
...those who take up the sword to crusade in Iomedae’s name...

(in some ways it is similar to 'all' Noble Chelaxians being worshipers of Asmodeus, since to do otherwise would be treasonous. Some are hardcore, some just pay lip service)

EDIT: fixed some formatting & added Low Templar quote


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So? The Crusader's Oath is given word-for-word, and 'I swear to follow Iomedae' is nowhere in it. That nails it down, and if the flavor text suggests otherwise than it still does no more than suggest; until and unless you can point to the part in the Oath that says 'I swear to follow Iomedae's commands', you ain't got nothing.

And no, just because her symbol is on the flag, that doesn't prove anything. The British flag carries the cross of St. Andrew and St. Patrick layered over the cross of St. George, but the British Army oath of enlistment still swears loyalty to Queen Elizabeth II and the government under her, not the Church.


I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, Chuckg.

And at the end of the day, as long as everyone is still having fun, it's all good. :)

Game on!


As an elevated mortal, Iomedae is obviously not perfect. Perhaps this is simply an example of the stresses inherent to her responsibilities fraying on even a goddess' nerves. "Do what I say, not what I do" sometimes, at least briefly, wins out over "Practice what you preach," it would seem.


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Garrrrggggh, do I hate the idea that the poor little overwhelmed woman trying to do the big man's job can't be expected to show some damn control of her emotions. Trading out Lawful Stupid for Bad 50s Stereotype is not a trade-up.


I'm certain Iomedae being portrayed as an overbearing twit of a deity is not intended to be a slight on women but rather was an extension of the "if you attack her you are harmed" theme. It may also be a description of the rigidity of her rule that she does not accept dissent or scorn. The problem is that characters who worship chaotic deities (such as a certain drunken god) will inevitably be struck down because they were true to themselves.

There is of course a way around it. If someone badmouths her? Level 9 Silence on that person. If they start making rude gestures? Level 9 darkness on that character so their gestures can't be seen. And then have her chide the character by pointing out that the drunken god has better manners (and they hear and see her (but just her) despite the Silence/Darkness). She could even call it "Time Out" like she's punishing an errant child.

The true problem, as I mentioned in the Other Thread, is that the entire scene was depicted as a "combat is conflict" where the threat of physical harm must exist in order for it to be a proper encounter. But a level 1 party could have an encounter with a Yeti in Reign of Winter... by coming across a dead deer and see huge bloody footprints and thus know something big and nasty is out there. Likewise, in Wrath we had the initial encounter with a vengeful demon lord which was the LAST Mythic trial for Book 4... where the only thing the PCs do is watch said Lord get nuked by the Lord of the Abyssal Realm they're currently in.

Why shouldn't seeing a Deity "in the flesh" be any different? There should have been no trumpets. No damage (except in the case of attacking her). Nor does there have to be in your version of this.

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