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The Beastmorph archetype for alchemists has several abilities that add to an alchemist's mutagen but does not list the mutagen class feature as being altered or replaced. Does this allow it to stack with other archetypes that alter mutagens?
Assuming no other conflicts, would it stack with Mindchemist, Ragechemist, Bramble Brewer, Saboteur, etc..?
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I think it stacks, by RAW.
Another more general question related to this is: Does Beastmorph affect a) the mutagen brewed, or b) the Alchemist's own physiology?
That is...
If a) is true, then he can hand one of his mutagens off to another alchemist or to his tumor familiar (or share it with the Improved Share Spells feat) and they will get the beastmorph benefits.
If b) is true, then ANY mutagen the beastmorph alchemist consumes should confer the benefits, such as the mutagens of other alchemists who are not beastmorphs.
It has to be one of those two. Which one it is...I have no idea.
I think it stacks, by RAW.
Another more general question related to this is: Does Beastmorph affect a) the mutagen brewed, or b) the Alchemist's own physiology?
That is...
If a) is true, then he can hand one of his mutagens off to another alchemist or to his tumor familiar (or share it with the Improved Share Spells feat) and they will get the beastmorph benefits.
If b) is true, then ANY mutagen the beastmorph alchemist consumes should confer the benefits, such as the mutagens of other alchemists who are not beastmorphs.It has to be one of those two. Which one it is...I have no idea.
Actually it doesn't have to be any of those two.
The ability writes: "At 3rd level, a beastmorph’s mutagen causes him to take on animalistic features"
The bolded part tells us it affect his own mutagen, and the italic part tells us affect him.
Personally, I would be happy to allow it to affect a Tumor Familiar as well.
I think they should stack. One conveys size bonuses, the other conveys alchemical bonuses.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. My question is does Beastmorph mutagen count as modifying the alchemist class ability mutagen? So far it appears I'm the only one who does.
I repeat it here, they stack as long as they don't change the same class ability.
Check the table:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist#TOC-Archetypes-Alter nate-Class-Features
Beastmorph and ragechemist don' stack because they change both swift poisoning, beastmorph and minchemist stack because they don't share class ability changes and so on...
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
I understand that Beastmorph doesn't replace an alchemist's mutagen, my question is does it count as altering an alchemist's mutagen.
So adding a new effect is not altering the class feature?
So adding a new effect is not altering the class feature?Adding, removing, replacing, limiting, and changing the level are all altering.
There are a fair number of forum people who don't agree, but there are FAQ (crossblooded/wild blooded for example) to reject their view.
Yeah, I kinda had that FAQ in mind although it is a little more explict in changing the class feature.
I agree it's not exactly the same as Cross/Wildblooded, which is why I didn't bring that up originally. Although I do feel it is similiar in intent. The Beastmorph does not list the mutagen class feature as being altered but it does give up several class features in order to add benefits to the mutagen. I believe these added benefits count as modifying the class feature and therefore renders it ineligable for other archetypes that modify mutagen. I feel that the argument it modifies the alchemist and not the mutagen to be a "fluff" argument, not mechanics. I think the RAW question is does adding benefits count as modifying the ability.
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No, it does not. That is an extremely restrictive reading that does not agree with either RAI or RAW. If Beastmorph altered the standard Mutagen class feature, it would have as it's last line "Beastmorph replaces swift alchemy and alters the mutagen class feature".
There is no need to say it alters mutagen, when it says it changes it that is altering.
Suffice it to say, there are differences of opinion on this subject (I don't agree they can be combined but you do) so welcome to table variance.
Wow, people sure like to have it both ways.
1: "We should use strict RAW and its insane declaration that adding options and making no actual changes counts as altering the class feature if it says it modifies the existing feature!"
2: "You don't think the intent was just to keep people from giving up something twice, or 'making a check your ass can't cash,' so to speak?"
1: "No! If it says it modifies the class feature, it won't stack! Even if it's just adding stuff!"
2: "Well, Beastmorph DOES NOT say it modifies mutagen. By RAW. Most sacred and holy RAW."
1: "Well...I really don't think that was the intent. We should use RAI."
2: "You mean that it's not replacing anything, so it should be cool?"
1: "No! That they totally meant to have that line in there."
*MASSIVE eyeroll and facepalm*
I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways (if that was directed at me), I trying to find out what the rule should actually be.
I feel the intent of the Beastmorph archetype is an alchemist that focuses more on the mutagen. I think an archetype essentially devoted to a class feature is probably not meant to combine with other archetypes that modify that specific class feature.
By RAW, I feel adding several benefits to a class feature counts as altering that class feature. I think it does not have a entry of "this modifies mutagen" because it does not use the mutagen class features to "pay" for any of these benefits. It gives up other class features to add the benefits.
That just doesn't make sense to me.
How can you argue that an archetype whose sole feature is an ability called Beastmorph Mutagen which only functions when using your mutagen does not count as altering your mutagen?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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How can you argue that an archetype whose sole feature is an ability called Beastmorph Mutagen which only functions when using your mutagen does not count as altering your mutagen?
This comes from people that try to dream up RAI to support rejecting the dictionary definition of "alter" which does include "add additional benefits to the class feature."
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It changes the mutagen item, but it doesn't change the mutagen class feature.
Sohei Monks' Weapon Training (and armor proficiency). It adds a new weapon group to flurry with, but it does not change the FoB class feature itself, so you can still trade it away.
Let us sum it up to we have different opinions on the matter. I disagree with both points.
Yes, the beastmorph ability changes the Mutagen that the alchemist uses. It changes the mutagen item, but it doesn't change the mutagen class feature. It doesn't substract, add, change any lines, or modify the class feature in any way. The class feature is not the same thing as the item.
That doesn't seem like splitting hairs to you? It doesn't alter Mutagen, it alters the mutagen?
I've said it, if you only bring here your interpretation it's not enough.
FAQ it, quote some errata, link some develepor/designer, do something, anything besides saying "hey it alters mutagen..." when it's not even clear.
The end for me, have fun.
Well if I had proof, this thread wouldn't even exist! My hope is that some discussion of the issue will lead to a FAQ or possibly a Dev or designer popping in to say what is the intent. I'm genuinely curious as to what the should be the correct rule.
Random bump.
Why would you "Random bump" this? Sorry, but you don't have anything to support your side now that you didn't have then.
Why would you "Random bump" this? Sorry, but you don't have anything to support your side now that you didn't have then.
Bored
well if you're bored you can try to answer some of my questions that haven't had much to any answers
well if you're bored you can try to answer some of my questions that haven't had much to any answers
Such as?
Bump, because I am trying to find an answer to this exact question for a game. Trying to find out if Beastmorph can be stacked with dendrite mutagen from Bramble Brewer.
You can hit the FAQ but I never got much interest in the topic.
Generally when an ability alters an ability, it says "This alters X ability".
Beastmorph doesn't do that.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Generally when an ability alters an ability, it says "This alters X ability".
Beastmorph doesn't do that.
Many of the old archetypes didn't have those lines. It was described in the thread on the stacking archetypes FAQ that they are trying to be better about putting those lines in to help understanding.