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I tend to play the same way you do OP but doesn't mean folks playing the other way are necessarily 'doing it wrong'. It just so happens that on the internet, the optimization folks tend to be the most vocal.
The thing to keep in mind is that there are others out there and on these boards that you'll have fun playing with and try not to let the more hostile types in the other camp get you down.
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For me a large part of having fun at the table is coming up with a unique, fleshed out character, complete with personality, and his own build that does not follow optimizational standards but that character's personal history.
But all of that flies out the window when my character is not effective in-game at doing any of the things his personal history indicates he should be effective at.
Let's say I want to play an intelligent mercenary with a strong arm and a mind for tactics. He takes dirty jobs, but lives by his own code of ethics, and has gotten into trouble in the past for not completing or actively hi-jacking jobs when he decided the ends just didn't justify the means. He is a practical man who lives by the sword and has no magical powers to call his own, and so does everything he can to ensure he has a tactical option for as many situations as he can. He doesn't like to be left without a way out.
It's not an uncommon character trope, but it's not one that works well following standard optimization practices. How do you build an effective version of that character if you ignore the "math" of the game as you call it? Intelligence and mundane combat don't mix very well in Pathfinder, and non-magical versatility isn't easy to attain. I can tell you I was immensely disappointed with the character I tried to build to that concept in D&D 3.5. I would be marginally better off in Pathfinder (Lore Warden Fighter), but I would still be forced to specialize rather than be capable of much diversity in play. The diversity is part of the roleplaying element. If my character isn't as versatile as he is supposed to be, then I can't have as much fun as I would like.
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I tend to play the same way you do OP but doesn't mean folks playing the other way are necessarily 'doing it wrong'. It just so happens that on the internet, the optimization folks tend to be the most vocal.
The thing to keep in mind is that there are others out there and on these boards that you'll have fun playing with and try not to let the more hostile types in the other camp get you down.
From what I've been told, it's easier to talk about the mechanical side of the game than it is to talk about the role playing aspects. For many the numbers are hard facts that one can debate back and forth, while RP choices and fluff are pretty much choices and opinions.
So I take this to mean that you have played no rogue characters and had fun with them or that you just don't feel like sharing.
Did you just ignore everything written, or are you simply unable to comprehend that people actually have fun by playing a Rogue and playing as a team?
I've had a lot of Rogue characters I've played had had a lot of fun with.
I think I and others have conveyed that...and then you ask a question that implies you are ignoring everything we stated and trying insulting enough to say the exact opposite?
WTH are you on?!
Or do you just like to insult people by ignoring everything written.
I think you are baiting and trolling here...and unfortunately I think it's worked already in this thread.
Unfortunately, I got baited on the last time I responded, but it was true about how I play and how people have fun with Rogues as well as in a party and a team.
I am sorry that you do not find playing as a team, in a group, or with others enjoyable...if that's what you are implying, because otherwise your respond doesn't make much sense in light of what I stated.
People do have different styles of play. However, I find it odd that you would play an RPG if you truly do not find playing the game with others as a cooperative group as fun...
Which makes me think that once again...this is a bait and troll.
Which, in reflection means...
I've had fun with Rogues, but I can tell there's no use in responding to your posts anymore...
If you can't accept that people might have fun doing stuff...
well...that's your loss.
But i don't see how you can have a lot of fun when constantly running the numbers of how effective your character will be in every situation.
While I don't agree with your assessment of what people play, allow me to give you a demonstrable answer to your dilemma of 'not being able to see' how others are having fun.
http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/
After consuming this single article, at least that one question will be perfectly clear. Happy gaming! =)
So I take this to mean that you have played no rogue characters and had fun with them or that you just don't feel like sharing.I think I and others have conveyed that...and then you ask a question that implies you are ignoring everything we stated and trying insulting enough to say the exact opposite?
WTH are you on?!
Or do you just like to insult people by ignoring everything written.
I think you are baiting and trolling here...and unfortunately I think it's worked already in this thread.
Or maybe he's played Rogues before and did not have fun, and is genuinely seeking advice?
I'm not saying one way or the other, but it's possible isn't it?
it would be possible, but then when we (and I) explained how people could have fun and why we found playing Rogues enjoyable...the poster came back with a response which seems to imply either they hate playing in a group OR...they are baiting and trolling.
Which is why it's looking more like bait and troll and I was a fool for responding and falling into the trap of being baited and making a stupid response to such trolling.
I'm going to try NOT to fall into such a trap again as it brings out the worst in people...for example me.
When I say, I enjoy playing a Rogue and this is why...and then they say I said the exact opposite...it has the tendency to be a bait and troll...and I should have been WISER than to respond like I did in the first place...when the first bait and troll was cast by the person (afterall, who stalks another poster from topic to topic and repeatedly asks for something which really has no place in a topic to begin with?)
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...And some people feel no need to justify the amount of fun they have to strangers on the Internet. So, I hear you don't like rogues. Please, tell us more...And some people talk about having fun with a character without providing any mechanical basis for people to understand how and why.It's not so much the roll for roll idea im preaching, it simply seems some people get to caught up in making the "perfect character" just make a character and role with it for better or worseGroup to left of me is saying "What no maths? How can you have fun without the maths?" Group to the right of me is saying "The fun isnt in the maths dont worry about the maths." Just a rehashing of the tired old "role vs. roll" argument.I think I see the other side of the same coin....Elaborate please
No. I love rogues. I just want to know how people have fun playing them.
I want to figure it out.
Is it wrong for me to want to have fun?
I CAN Powergame/munchkin like you...but I don't LIKE playing that way.
Perhaps that's why I ENJOY playing a Rogue...because I don't have to powergame/munchkin to have fun.
In addition, in a group of four players...it's just dumb (or not) in the way we play to have a bunch of abilities overlap. If you have a Rogue, why try to find someone to upscale the rogue or do the same thing...when you could instead focus on having another character concept that fills another void?
It's called Teamwork. It's called...not being a jerk and a glory hog and having to be the only one that wants the DM's attention.
It's called, working together. So if one wants to be a Rogue...you don't automatically decide to be a Ninja because you think it would be a better optimization choice and you will do better than that player who chose to be a Rogue, or be a Wizard that focuses on
I would post a build but im not sure what all youd want from me, plus i dont know how to do that except by typing it all out
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But i don't see how you can have a lot of fun when constantly running the numbers of how effective your character will be in every situation.While I don't agree with your assessment of what people play, allow me to give you a demonstrable answer to your dilemma of 'not being able to see' how others are having fun.
http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/
After consuming this single article, at least that one question will be perfectly clear. Happy gaming! =)
Thank you i rather enjoyed that
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I tend to play the same way you do OP but doesn't mean folks playing the other way are necessarily 'doing it wrong'. It just so happens that on the internet, the optimization folks tend to be the most vocal.
The thing to keep in mind is that there are others out there and on these boards that you'll have fun playing with and try not to let the more hostile types in the other camp get you down.
I know that they arent wrong, but there is so much more to the game than numbers, theres the roleplaying, cooperation, problem solving ( which is drastically simplified by spells) and of course luck... luck plays a huge part as well
I would post a build but im not sure what all youd want from me, plus i dont know how to do that except by typing it all out
I normally put my characters on google docs, so I just cut and paste.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) Description of the campaign you had fun in.
EDIT: Totally forgot the most important part: Skill ranks
it would be possible, but then when we (and I) explained how people could have fun and why we found playing Rogues enjoyable...So I take this to mean that you have played no rogue characters and had fun with them or that you just don't feel like sharing.I think I and others have conveyed that...and then you ask a question that implies you are ignoring everything we stated and trying insulting enough to say the exact opposite?
WTH are you on?!
Or do you just like to insult people by ignoring everything written.
I think you are baiting and trolling here...and unfortunately I think it's worked already in this thread.
Or maybe he's played Rogues before and did not have fun, and is genuinely seeking advice?
I'm not saying one way or the other, but it's possible isn't it?
Great! Glad you had fun. Now can I see this fun character please!?
Maybe everyone who has fun with the rogues is doing something I am not mechanically. Regardless I need to see it, to figure out why people like you are having fun playing rogues, while I can't figure it out.
Regardless of how much you call be a troll/munchkin/power-gamer it doesn't help. I don't really care that much about how the rogue stacks up to other classes (been there done that, saw all the math, it's not all that important), I've personally had trouble with rogues stacking up to the challenges presented in an AP (which is important to me).
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For me, it comes down to the following:
As a player, I like to actually win. I absolutely enjoy roleplaying, and indeed tend to prefer playing in games with more social interaction than combat...but I also like to succeed. To be competent. Hell, I don't even enjoy movies or books with protagonists who aren't pretty good at what they do, why would I like playing as one?
Now, in Pathfinder, being competent at a particular task requires you to know some math/do some optimization. I'm actually pretty good at that stuff, so my characters wind up competent and I'm happy. If I wasn't as good at it, asking for build advice on these boards might be a good idea to make sure my character was, as mentioned, actually competent, and thus to make my play experience enjoyable.
I think this attitude is pretty common among, well, people who play RPGs in general, and especially people who play Pathfinder. So you get a lot of talk about optimization because it's the only universal way to succeed.
Individual games often have other ways to do so, such as roleplaying one's way through a social encounter, but how viable that is and how one would do so successfully vary widely from group to group, and are thus not scenarios that can be discussed as easily on the internet with people unfamiliar with your group's dynamics. The rules, meanwhile, while not precisely universal, are a lot more so and thus form a suitable basis for discussion.
On the specific topic of Rogues:
Whether a Rogue can be fun depends hugely on the GM, the group, and the situation. A good GM can make playing a Commoner fun (never mind a Rogue), it's just more work and involves them specifically tailoring things to do so, a group with no other skill-monkey can make very good use of a Rogue...just not as much as of a Bard or Ranger, and a low-magic social campaign with a lot of political intrigue can make a Rogue feel very useful indeed. Additionally, Rogue tends to attract players who are clever and enjoy thinking outside the box, and in most games the player who's best at those things is gonna be very effective and have a lot of fun regardless of class.
None of that makes the Rogue an actual good or balanced class. Almost universally, the same player playing a Bard, or an Urban Ranger, or a Vivisectionist Alchemist would have been more effective and done better, or at least been less work for the GM to give spotlight time to.
Uneven power levels can be fun and made to work...but Rogue is inherently on such an uneven power level with a lot of other classes, and that's not how Pathfinder is supposed to be designed.
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I think a common false conundrum is that effective has to be the same as optimized.
If you take profession(engineer) and don't optimize, you are not role playing correctly :P
I actually despise the roleplaying part of it :P
I hate interacting with npcs, 90% are hostile for no reason.
I hate yacking about the pastimes and crap with my fellow pcs, especially when i wouldn't do that even irl.
I despise sitting there trying to make a voice, or play a good or evil character.
Give me a game where i can murder everything in sight (or at least a few things a night).
Give me a game where an npc talks to me, and i can sit in silence without half the town coming down in anger because i refused to speak to someone.
Give me a game with hundreds of different rules and tactics, an innumerable amount of situations, and a continuously evolving landscape.
I'll take that over roleplaying any day
(Q.Q) Oh you poor thing! Is that what they made you do? (~_O)
Yeeeesh. 90% of the NPCs are hostile? My good man, my heart goes out to you! I wish I could introduce you to Jum Jum and Buckshot. D:Carrius Vantiel : i will i promise and i want you to know something (Carrius whispers in her ear) i love you
Jack of Pikes: "No..."
High Priest Roflain: "Oh god, what now?"
Jeo: "In any case, Vandread. We know where he is, and I'm prepared to scout the location. We need to know how many templar are coming with us to ensure his death."
Jack of Pikes: "No, no, no..."
Priest: "There is a...goblin riding a rainbow colored ass inside the main chapel. He said he was looking for High Templar Carrius and an a~*#$~! named Jack?"
Jack of Pikes: "G!~ D#!MIT JUMJUM I WILL PUT YOU IN THAT DONKEY"
Jack of Pikes: "I SWEAR TO GOD JUMJUM, IF ANYTHING IS ON FIRE I WILL S$&@ IN YOU."
Jack of Pikes: Jack runs out.
Miranda: Miranda suddenly looks at Carrius surprised. She then looks down at the floor, then back to Carrius as she thinks. "...Thank you..." she says seemingly uncertain as of what to say. "Um...here, please watch Peggy for me," she says pulling a small bat out of the top of her dress. It flitters its wings about and finally clings to Carrius with a rather dejected look.
Carrius Vantiel : i will miranda i will
Jum Jum's Mount: "Eeee-haw!"
Jack of Pikes: "DAMN YOU AND YOUR MAGICAL ASS OF PRIDE"
Tokens dropped onto map 'Amaranth, Grand Cathedral'
Tokens dropped onto map 'Amaranth, Grand Cathedral'
Tokens dropped onto map 'Amaranth, Grand Cathedral'
JumJum: "Hey now, you know you want a piece of dis ass," Jum Jum teases with a maggot-infested bandage kind of dangling from beneath his hat. He blows a dangling strand of bandage out of his eyes, causing little writhing maggots to fall to the temple floor like failing bungee jumpers. "Oops, mama would be ashamed of me," he says reach down and scooping them up. He then throws them in his mouth and begins chewing, "She hates it when people waste food. So what are we--?" he begins before noticing a priestess walking by, "Oh wait, hold this..." he says handing Jack a blood-stained maggot-bandage, "I have work to do. Hey there foxy lady!"
Jack of Pikes: "Jumjum... the f!%% happened to your eye? And why is it full of maggots?"
Jack of Pikes: "YOU BASTARDS NEVER CLOSED HIS HEAD!?"
Jack of Pikes: "JEO! HOW COULD YOU MISTREAT MY MINION SO!? HE HAS BEEN NOTHING IF NOT LOYAL!"
Jack of Pikes: "AND GROSS."
Jack of Pikes: "AND NOW, THANKS TO YOU, EVEN MORE SO."
Jack of Pikes: "OH GOD THEY'RE IN MY GLOVE."
Jack of Pikes: "I HATE EVERYTHING."
Jack of Pikes: "ALL OF IT."
Tokens dropped onto map 'Amaranth, Grand Cathedral'
JumJum: Jum Jum proudly rides up on his rainbow colored ass as only a goblin sorcerer could. "Hey there baby," he says as his cheese-colored teeth sparkle like diamonds. "How you doin'?"
Inquisitor: "Um...are you talking to me?"
Jack of Pikes: "JUM JUM YOU ARE FESTERING WITH FLESH-EATING VERMIN."
Jack of Pikes: "THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE."
Jack of Pikes: "NOBODY WANTS TO TAP THAT."
JumJum: "Ssshhhh, I got dis,"
Jack of Pikes: "YOU HAVE ONE MORE HOLE THAN YOU SHOULD."
Inquisitor: "Got what?"
Jack of Pikes: "HE IS TRYING TO SEDUCE YOU."
Jack of Pikes: "RUN. RUN NOW."
Inquisitor: "I may vomit..."
Jack of Pikes: "Walk away slowly. If you run, he'll chase you."
Jeo: (( Jack: Cockblocker General ))
JumJum: "Hey now, slow down lady, we only just met,"
Jack of Pikes: "BUCKSHOT. GET IN HERE. I WILL GIVE YOU 100 GOLD TO KNOCK THIS THING OUT AND PUT HIM IN A HOSPITAL BED."
Jack of Pikes: "200 IF YOU KILL IT."
Jack of Pikes: "I KNOW WHAT I SAID."
JumJum: "Sweet gods man, I'm tryin' to bury my beak here!"
Jack of Pikes: Jack gags a little.
Inquisitor: "I'm...just going to go over here now,"
Jack of Pikes: "Jum Jum. Listen to me. If you stop this, and go get healed and rid of maggots, I guarantee you will drown in poontang later."
Jack of Pikes: "Drown in it.
Jack of Pikes: "But I can't make that happen while there are vermin in you."
JumJum: "Not if you do it right."
"Buckshot": "Somebody say you needed someone killed?"
Xilmara: "By the ancestors..."
Jack of Pikes: "Buckshot. I was kidding. Just grab him, put him in a bed. You, priestess. Fix him."
Xilmara: "I have to ask for clarification...when you say fix him, can you elaborate?"
Jack of Pikes: "Close the hole. Get the maggots out. Then, if you can, neuter him."
"Buckshot": "Ew...dis one has big worms,"
JumJum: "Nah, just one,"
Jack of Pikes: "Whle you're at it, get rid of the tongue."
JumJum: "Also, go away, you bother me big guy,"
JumJum: Jum Jum waves his big stick - the one with the bones on the end...the one made of actual wood - at Buckshot.
"Buckshot": 1
"Buckshot": "Sure thing buddy,"
JumJum: "So as I was saying my dear..." Jum Jum exclaims, "I can do things to you that would make minks envious," he says rubbing his fingers through his greasy goblin hair. As he does, all the grime and gunk, dried crusty goblin blood - and a few other kinds - all seem to melt away leaving flowing locks much like a goblin Fabio's in its place. His teeth shimmer with a white glow, save for one which seems like it's made of gold. His clothing becomes prestine, all of his little bones polished, and his especially interesting drunken goblin funk is replaced by a pleasant lilac-scented musk that. "I am a goblin of many talents, but I but a humble miracle worker. Only you could grant me my heart's desire, to see you for dinner tonight..."
Jack of Pikes: Jack attacks nonlethally.
Inquisitor: "Wait, wait...let me hear what he has to say..."
Jack of Pikes: "No." Jack attacks nonlethally.
JumJum: Jum Jum winks at Jack.
* Jack of Pikes rolls: d20+6 => 1 + 6 = 7
* Jack of Pikes rolls: d20+6 => 8 + 6 = 14
* Jack of Pikes rolls: 3d6+1 => 7 + 1 = 8
JumJum: Jum Jum ducks beneath the rapier as if flies over his head and then he turns his assbow around and leans into the Templar's ample busom. "See, I'm real slick, and tonight you could be to--" *thwack* "...Goodnight," he says flopping off the colorful donkey and landing on the marble floor and smearing slobber around.
Inquisitor: "Oh my..."
Jum Jum's Mount: "Brrruffff...."
Jack of Pikes: "I am terribly sorry about that miss," he apologizes as he scoops up the goblin, "Can I possibly make it up to you, maybe over dinner~?"
Inquisitor: The inquisitor runs a finger over her bottom lip, "Um, okay, but only if you bring him too,"
Jack of Pikes: "........... Deal."
More NPC fun.
Miss Lillybloom: "What, what do you mean he knows where Miranda is? Don't play with me, are you serious, knight?"
Guard: "I'd pay to see that,"
Carrius Vantiel: yes i am serious i have her as a word under my protection
Carrius Vantiel: and you dont want to see that trust me
Guard 2: "You know it's people like you that make people think only idiots join the service,"
Guard: "Hey, c'mon, don't be like that. I've never seen a vampire. My daughter tells me they sparkle in the sunshine,"
Guard 3: "Your daughter is a stupid as you are,"
Guard: "Hey!"
Guard 2: "Vampires do not sparkle. That's ghouls,"
Guard 3: "I'm pretty sure you're both retarded..."
Carrius Vantiel: guard 3 whats your name?
Guard 3: "Duncan, sir,"
Carrius Vantiel: your getting a promotion
Guard 3: "Doubtful,"
Carrius Vantiel: ill make it happen
Guard 3: "That'd be impressive. The chief is mad with me right now,"
Carrius Vantiel: why
Guard 3: "For being a 'know it all'"
Carrius Vantiel: youll be the new chief
Jack of Pikes: "Ah! Lemme shows ya, come on!" Jack drags her to the wall and points to the big orc, "That one right there! There's ooool bucky!"
Bouncer: The bouncer points to a hobgoblin woman wearing a veil who seems to be watching the ring. The woman's clothing leaves little to the imagination, but the imagination could have done little to do her figure any justice. The dark and athletic tone and hobgoblin dread-braids around her pointed ears and yellow eyes seem to leave no question that she's a hobgoblin. Nor do the variety of weapons, many of them apparently improvised and home made - or modified to be even more vicious than normal with serrated knicks seemingly purposefully ground into their blades - which hang from various leather straps that make up the lion's share of her clothing. By human guess she looks like she's somewhere between sixteen and twenty, but hobgoblins are notorious for being dangerous young.
Zeth Alamar: "What a.... Intresting name Buckshot. A friend, I hope.
* Alice De Enteri waits as the party gets itself together.
Aliizsa: *aliizsa perks up and looks at the woman, her head tilting to the side while she gives her wings a flutter* Uhm... so... what happens if I won a fight? I get money? *she asks curiously*
Bouncer: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1371/98/1371987508993.jpg
Bouncer: "Meseii is kind of Valsa's favorite y'see. She came in here 'bout five years ago, half-naked and half starved. Didn't seem to speak a word o' the common-tongue. Tried to get 'er to leave but she just kept comin' back, so Valsa said t'let her stay and watch if'n she wanted. When she saw 'em throwin' money at the people in da ring, she jumped in da ring too. Guy in da ring was shocked and laughted at her. He wasn't laughing as much when she broke his knee,"
Zeth Alamar: "Dear girl, I don't want you to think that i was angry with you. I just wanted you to understand the sevarity of the situation, and come away form it.... more understanding of importance of controling ones emotions." Zeth seems for be searching for the words
Zeth Alamar: "It is instances like this which help mold us in our childhood and shape us to be better people when we are adults."
"Buckshot": The sound of the bouncer is overshadowed by the sudden roar of the crowd and the screams of a man. "Oh c'mon lil' guy, y'got more in ya than that dun'cha!?" the massive orc asks as he throws a man over onto the ground with the butt of a pair of pistols.
* Aliizsa perks up curiously, her interest clearly piqued. "Ah! So if I fight, I get money!?" she asks, obviously excited while her wings flutter behind her. Once she hears zeth's words she turns back at him and nods "yeah... erh... I.. it was an accident.. I never meant to hurt anyone...I.. yeah..." she says, rubbing the back of her head sheepishly. "That's why I'll fight in this ring and and get the money to repay that woman for the damages!~"
Pit Fighter: "Hey, you can't use guns in this!"
Zeth Alamar: "By apologizing you have shown that you have grown form the experience, and taken that first step towards adulthood."
Jeo: "Is he... using those guns as clubs?"
Alice De Enteri: "Oh?!" Alice begins to understand that Aliizsa was appologizing for earlier events "Don't worry honey I was just..... Surprised? I doubt you would do that normally... And to be honest what the Goblin did made me more than a little disgusted as well."
Jack of Pikes: 'Tha's Buckshot for ya! Go get 'im Bucky! Crack 'is bloomin' skull open!"
"Buckshot": "Pfft, I ain't usin' no bullets, these are just special to me!" the orc says beating the s$#& out of the man in front of him with the butts of the pistols. The man rushes to his feat and knocks the pistols out of Buckshot's hands. "Now meet Sasha," he says pulling a blunderbuss from his waist and clubbing the s~~! out of the pit fighter in front of him.
Jeo: Jeo pauses and blinks a few times, totally surprised by the scene unfolding in the pit. "I... see. This isn't quite what I expected from the name 'Buckshot'."
Pit Fighter: "Oh sweet gods!"
Alice De Enteri: "I think tonight I might witness to murders." Alice mutters to herself as she sees what's going on in the ring.
Jack of Pikes: "Yer gods can't hear ya now, buddy. Go fer the babymakers, Buckshot!"
Aliizsa: "ergh... yeah....that's why I'm going to learn to control it!~ Though.. EUGH..." she shivers violently and flutters her wings while shaking her entire body briskly. "It was -SO- gross~" she whines.
"Buckshot": "Hahaha, oh c'mon now, give it a bit more than that! Here, I'm a sport," Bucky says pulling a big hunting knife from his sheath and tossing it to the other guy. "If I don't get cut up a bit how am I supposed to look at my pretty face in the mirror in the mornin'!?"
Zeth Alamar: Zeth stands closer to the ring Jaw slacked and eyes fixated on the intreging cannage, "Neither, did I."
Pit Fighter: "Raaaaagh!" the northerner shouts as he stabs Buckshot in the chest with the hunting knife. However the knife digs into his chest and just stops, and the fighter looks terrified. "What the!?"
"Buckshot": "Heheh, my turn..."
"Buckshot": The following is too violent for children...but it's pretty bad.
Jeo: "Jack," Jeo says quietly, "Your friend is insane. This is coming from someone who tore out a harpy's heart fairly recently."
Last one, I promise. :P
JumJum: (( For the record he is still critically injured. :P ))
Jeo: Jeo is snapped out of her confusion and stares at Jum Jum as he performs his antics, a look of horror slowly growing on her face. Her hand finds its way to Aliizsa's shoulder, gripping it tightly.
Aliizsa: ". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ." aliizsa was silent as she stared at the space where the image was in sock and disbelief. It wasn't until about 3 seconds later after jum-jum smooched her, and jeo placed her hand on her shoulder, that she realized what had happened. The small girl immediately tenses up with a long, inhaling gasp as sher wings flutter and her eyes go wide* A-a-AIIIIEEEEEEEieeeeeeeeeee!!!~ *she cries out, hunching her shoulders and tensing up as her wings shove and push jum-jum away from her (possibly causing him to fall) as they flare. She immediately begins running and crying out in horror as she tries to wipe it off.
Aliizsa: She quickly moves over to the building and begins raking her face acrossed the cement, followed by her hands* Get-it-off-get-it-off!~ *she cries out in horror at the goblin touching her. After a moment she begins to growl and wing flutter, her hands bursting into flames*
Jeo: "Control! This is what we were talking about, control! He's not your enemy. He's trying to be nice... he's just really, really bad at it."
JumJum: Jum Jum falls down on the ground as he is pushed by the little woman's wings. He flops down and just goes silent for a minute. Then a few moments after he falls down his big goblin eyes fill with clear liquid and his lip quivers as if it were freezing off. He sniffles as snot seeks liberation from the orificies in his face, and he starts breathing rapidly and deeply before finally breaking out in a pathetic wailing. "Waaaaaaaaaghhhhhh - *gasp* - uuuuuuunnnnnnnnnghhhhhh - *gasp* - eeaaauuuunnnghhhhghhghhgghghghghghghghghghgh~!"
JumJum: A torrent of tears, glowing elvish wine, and slobber spatter about like rain around him.
Aliizsa: *aliizsa pauses suddenly, her eyes glaring fire and death at jum-jum, the only sound in the night was that of her wings buffeting and the flames on her hands burning and smoldering in the night air. She looked directly at jum-jum before defiantly reaching up and placing her hand on her face and burning the section of skin that he had kissed, melting it clear off as she cried out in pain, falling to her knees and cringing. A few moments later she pulls her hand free, her flames whisking out and revealing her horiffically scared and burnt face.... which immediately begins to heal* eugh.... burn it with fire.. it's the only way to be sure. . ..
Aliizsa: *shivers and shudders a bit* I -DID- control myself... I didn't hurt him!~ Only myself!~ *she huffs back*
Jeo: "Really?" Jeo says, looking at the blubbering goblin, "It seems like you hurt him pretty badly. He was just trying to apologize, and you treated him with about as much respect as you treat a latrine."
Aliizsa: W-w-what!? *she cries out in disbelief, holding her hands out as her muscled face still slowly grows back* I didn't do anything!~ I got startled!~ You can't fault me for that!~ If you got scared, you're initial reaction would be shock too, right!?
Aliizsa: *aliizsa cringes visibly as she turns and looks down at the goblin on the floor. She flutters her wings and then cringes again, her shoulder hunching a bit as she looks at it* . . . . *she then slowly... almost begrudgingly.. okay perhaps a lot begrudgingly... reaches down... and... touches.. it* >____< *she grabs jum-jums arm and helps try to pull him up to his feet* s-s-sorry. . . .you.. you scared me. . . I didn't mean to push you... it .. well.. wings.. *she offers up shyly*
JumJum: Jum Jum sobs uncontrollably as he is pulled to his feet. "Waaaaaiiiieegh!" he cries as he hugs Aliizsa, snot racing with his tears down his green face as his bulbous puffy bloodshot red eyes clench tightly as a failing dam would to hold back the pour. His nose pokes Aliizsa's ear a bit as he sniffles and soaks her shoulder and dress in his sticky excretions. "I-I-just want to have friends!" he says crying into her shoulder. "Why do you hate me sho mush!?" he asks hugging her tightly. Even the giant tick in Jum Jum's greasy blood-caked hair looks up at Aliizsa with a look of Aw, how could you?
Jeo: Jeo sighs and continually manifests clean, trying to keep Aliizsa pristine.
Aliizsa: *aliizsa tenses up visibly as she cringes, her entire body shaking uncontrollably as she closes her eyes and just begins to whimper pathetically, her wings fluttering sadly as she teeters on the edge of losing it. Her face was all scrunched up and she felt sick to her stomach, before she begins to dry-heave. If she could throw up... she definitely would be right now. Despite all of this however, she somehow manages to not immolate, destroy, or otherwise end the goblins pitiful existance in an incredible, extra-ordinary act of self-control, despite the fact that she was sobbing on the inside*
JumJum: Jum Jum continues crying before trying to blow his nose in his sleeve like a gentleman, but in his drunken stupor he accidentally uses Aliizsa's. As she does, he sobs, "I *sob* I wanted to take you to *sob* the dark elfsh lansh *whimper*," he says as the caked blood from inside his skull begins to flake off his greasy hair after being dampened by his sweat and tears. "That nice lady wifsh the pretty booze and pretty boobsh told me all about it, and I wanted us to *sniffle* to *sniffle* goooooo~aaagh!" he says breaking out into a sobbing mess again. "I wanted to buy more shiny booze we'd shares, and we'd see the pretty cryshal s~@%y, even wish crazy elf she-king," he says. "But you don't like me, and I don'tsh undershand why~! Do you hate magic? Ish that it?"
Aliizsa: *aliizsa waits for a casting of clean from jeo before she suddenly disperses into a swarm of bats and flutters past jum-jum. She whirls up into the air before swirling into into the item shop that they had just left, filling it with bats as they swirl around and condesnse around the items she had left in the table, causing them to disperse into shadow as she collects her things and then prepares to leave to go quit life*
JumJum: Jum Jum whimpers and gives up. He tried his best. He just sits down on the ground and continues crying.
Aliizsa: *aliizsa doesn't fly into the building, but instead re-condenses on the door-step and then opens the door and pops into the building. She eyes the two women drinking, and then quickly grabs her things and then leaves out through the door again, closing it as she looks back over at jum-jum* goblin; I don't hate you. But it's -NOT- okay for you to behave like that. *she says back as she comes to realization* It was unacceptable for me to react so violently to you for doing something so disgusting and gross. And I'm sorry for that. It won't happen again. But invading my personal space, and getting your bodily essences ... on me... *she shudders, barely keeping her composure* is not acceptable either. I don't hate you, but I will not let myself be . . . . . soiled... in such a way.
JumJum: Jum Jum looks surprised. He never expected another girl to complain about him soiling them, since the last time was purely a freak accident and he didn't even realize that she wasn't a tree. Regardless Jum Jum continues to sniffle and sits against the wall. Jum Jum is still a little confused since he's not sure what this personal space thing was, since he was pretty sure that Aliizsa hadn't hidden any cookies on her person, so his closeness seemed entirely natural since he wasn't trying to steal the cookies she did not have. "Mal-lady said...ahhh," he says just giving up and lying against the wall, seemingly falling asleep.
Aliizsa: *finishes collecting her things and then steps outside. She turns and looks at the woman.* . . . . I've realized the mistake I've made, been defiled, violated, soiled, enlightened, hurt, healed, cried, laughed, been happy, sad, and everything in between in the last like.. 20 minutes. Now, I feel utterly and entirely -disgusting- and want nothing more than to go -home- and take a -bath-.
Jeo: Jeo watches Aliizsa deal with Jum Jum quietly, giving her a faint smile and a nod as she walks away. She puts a hand on Jum Jum's shoulder and shakes him gently. "We don't have time to sleep right now. We have to meet up with Jack, and we'll get you patched up okay?"
Jeo: Jeo manifests a final instance of clean at Aliizsa, wiping away any remnants of filth on her. "Magic is just as good as any bath."
JumJum: groan, snore, sniffssll
Aliizsa: "yeah but magic doesn't clean my -brain-."
Aliizsa: "or SOUL."
Aliizsa: "I need soul soap and brain bleach. LOTS of it too."
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it would be possible, but then when we (and I) explained how people could have fun and why we found playing Rogues enjoyable...So I take this to mean that you have played no rogue characters and had fun with them or that you just don't feel like sharing.I think I and others have conveyed that...and then you ask a question that implies you are ignoring everything we stated and trying insulting enough to say the exact opposite?
WTH are you on?!
Or do you just like to insult people by ignoring everything written.
I think you are baiting and trolling here...and unfortunately I think it's worked already in this thread.
Or maybe he's played Rogues before and did not have fun, and is genuinely seeking advice?
I'm not saying one way or the other, but it's possible isn't it?
Great! Glad you had fun. Now can I see this fun character please!?
Maybe everyone who has fun with the rogues is doing something I am not mechanically. Regardless I need to see it, to figure out why people like you are having fun playing rogues, while I can't figure it out.
Regardless of how much you call be a troll/munchkin/power-gamer it doesn't help. I don't really care that much about how the rogue stacks up to other classes (been there done that, saw all the math, it's not all that important), I've personally had trouble with rogues stacking up to the challenges presented in an AP (which is important to me).
That makes no sense. I shouldn't respond to you, but JUST on the off chance that you really can't comprehend imagination, group play, and simply team fun and having fun playing as a character....
If I asked...show me a Barbarian that does 10,000 Damage a round at 2nd level or you can't have fun in PF...would that make any sense?
Posting a character really proofs nothing, and doesn't show whether someone has fun or not.
However, not my character, but if you want a fun Rogue...here's one...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_the_Rogue
Maybe a little before your time...but Gord is not a Ninja, he is not a Ranger...and he's not a Mage...he's a Thief/Rogue and if someone wants to play someone like Gord...by heck...and have fun while at it...there's no reason that they can't.
In my opinion of course.
Why do we have fun playing a Rogue...
For the same reason I have fun playing a Bard, a Ranger, a Fighter, a Monk, or any other class. Because we play as a group, play as a team, have fun together, and enjoy the game with other players.
It's as simple as that. IF you can't accept that this is a valid way to play and have fun...
Well...at least stop trying to criticize those who do have fun in that way.
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Maybe a little before your time...but Gord is not a Ninja, he is not a Ranger...and he's not a Mage...he's a Thief/Rogue and if someone wants to play someone like Gord...by heck...and have fun while at it...there's no reason that they can't.
How do I play someone like Gord?
Maybe a little before your time...but Gord is not a Ninja, he is not a Ranger...and he's not a Mage...he's a Thief/Rogue and if someone wants to play someone like Gord...by heck...and have fun while at it...there's no reason that they can't.How do I play someone like Gord?
Hmm, well, if we were doing the conversion of him (they actually posted his stats, I can't recall if it was in a book or magazine) he's your basic typical Rogue.
So, you'd want the skills of Stealth, Climb, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Disguise and Acrobatics just to start with.
I think his stats listed were
Str 17
Int 16
Wis 14
Dex 18
Con 16
Cha 15
So probably 2 other skills, probably which could be, Escape Artists, and Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
You'd want to get Weapon Focus in Shortsword and or Dagger as soon as possible as he had weapon training that gave him a +1 in combat.
It wasn't that he was such an uber, powerful character, or that he shook the world (actually he did, but it wasn't because he was stronger than any wizard, in fact many times he was more trying to outwit the lair than face off with any wizard or other worse, Deity), in many ways he was your typical Rogue...but he used his smarts and innovation to get into and do things (as any player should with a character).
You're going to have to rely a LOT on your wits, charm, and imagination to get through the dungeons, but that's What Gord's true strengths lay in.
Other than that, you MIGHT (that's a might) want to dip into a level of Fighter or two, as Gord did have that weapon training in his youth as per the stories (if not how he was written in the stats in the books).
He also had some pretty uber weapons/magic items at the time when he was written up. That's more up to your GM though.
PS: I should add, that Gord really had some REALLY uber stuff after the first book or two, which helped a LOT with many of the situations he dealt with. Also...I prefer more the early Gord than later Gord...plus...if you really want to replicate Gord later on...you have to get killed/die at some point. OF course, I think that's to a deity and such...but still...
Is anybody else noticing how "post your build so I can see how it's fun" is pretty much a non-sequitur?
Yes.
Is anybody else noticing how "post your build so I can see how it's fun" is pretty much a non-sequitur?
If by non-sequitur, you mean perfectly reasonable question, then yes.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.
Keywords being you. I want to see an actual experience where rogue fun was had. That shouldn't be hard for anyone who has had fun playing a rogue.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.
Keywords being you. I want to see an actual experience where rogue fun was had. That shouldn't be hard for anyone who has had fun playing a rogue.
Here: Character still being played by me (your YOU)
1) Half Elf Rogue 8/Fighter 1 (I regret taking this level) : Str 11 (+1 at level 8), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14 (+1 at level 4), Wis 10, Cha 142) We are currently at level 9, still playing.
3) Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Extra Rogue Talent, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Skill Focus (Stealth), Weapon Finesse
4) Traits?? Traits charming, forlorn.
5) Skill Totals: Acrobatics +16, Bluff +14 (+15 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Climb +8, Diplomacy +12 (+13 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Disable Device +18, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +10, Perception +14 (+18 to locate traps), Sense Motive +5, Stealth +20, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +14.
6) Campaign based in Ustalav: Members of a secret organization based in Ustalav called the Order of the Scar, whose members have each been hurt the evils of the land. We discovered a plot by a splinter group of the Whispering Way to break Tar-Baphon out of his prison tower. The plot includes recovering a series of books made from the angel Tibyan's flesh describing all knowledge of the universe (see Book of the Damned).
We have traveled thoughout the counties to thwart the evil cults attempts to find these artifact level books, and have so far clashed with all manner of evils. Adventures have ranged from battling barbarian fire orcs in a salt mine, to assaulting a sorcerer cabal,to rooting out nests of vampires, rescuing an ex-count from the Whispering Way, to just recently enacting a play to bluff our way into a Nobles manor. All have been great fun with this character, at no point did he feel helpless or useless (or even underpowered).
Other Characters played (all of equal level)
Ranger 7/Barbarian 2
Cleric of Desna 9
Invoker(ish) 9
Bard 9
Inquisitor 9
Fighter 9
The rogue is a more of the seedier/dirty side of the town character who is the info-gatherer, sometimes scout or support the scout. In combat, helps the others by providing bonuses, tripping, or finally leaping in to finish off an opponent. Somewhat of a dirty fighter. The character is fun, has been fun, and will be fun. Thanks for looking it over.
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I'd post mine for you Marthkus but it was a multiclassed rogue that went prestige class so it probably doesnt count. I might have an old rogue char sheet from a decade ago in 3.5 that I had a blast with but alas its not PF.
Sure! 3.5 is not preferable, but it's at least something. Even the multiclass build would be interesting to see.
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.
Based on my exploration of the many threads, and the hatred that others reigned down upon the threads that i have posted it is obvious that the reason (or so it seems) that many of the people on here play is because they see it as a "battle of math"? Or so it seems. I feel many people forget that it is a Role Playing Game. Reminder this is all opinion. But i don't see how you can have a lot of fun when constantly running the numbers of how effective your character will be in every situation. Also i feel people rely to much on their spells, all that has to happen is for a wizard to lose the ability to cast and they are as good as dead, you have to have other classes, i feel other people do not realize that. Again all just opinion. Remember everyone RPG!! not Math Wars
What people post and how they actually play may be very different. For example, with Simulacrum and a rather strained reading of the rules, you could interpret this as being able to get unlimited free wishes. Many have posted this as a example of why the rules are broken, why wizards are broken, why martials can't have good things. So far, I have not had anyone say they actually play that way (altho doubtless there's a couple). Peoples on-line personae are often at odd with their IRL personality. For example, I am no-where near are argumentative in person.
Do not mistake what is posted here esp in General Discussion with IRL gameplay.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.Keywords being you. I want to see an actual experience where rogue fun was had. That shouldn't be hard for anyone who has had fun playing a rogue.
Post:Here: Character still being played by me (your YOU)1) Half Elf Rogue 8/Fighter 1 (I regret taking this level) : Str 11 (+1 at level 8), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14 (+1 at level 4), Wis 10, Cha 14
2) We are currently at level 9, still playing.
3) Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip), Extra Rogue Talent, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Skill Focus (Stealth), Weapon Finesse
4) Traits?? Traits charming, forlorn.
5) Skill Totals: Acrobatics +16, Bluff +14 (+15 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Climb +8, Diplomacy +12 (+13 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Disable Device +18, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +10, Perception +14 (+18 to locate traps), Sense Motive +5, Stealth +20, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +14.
6) Campaign based in Ustalav: Members of a secret organization based in Ustalav called the Order of the Scar, whose members have each been hurt the evils of the land. We discovered a plot by a splinter group of the Whispering Way to break Tar-Baphon out of his prison tower. The plot includes recovering a series of books made from the angel Tibyan's flesh describing all knowledge of the universe (see Book of the Damned).
We have traveled thoughout the counties to thwart the evil cults attempts to find these artifact level books, and have so far clashed with all manner of evils. Adventures have ranged from battling barbarian fire orcs in a salt mine, to assaulting a sorcerer cabal,to rooting out nests of vampires, rescuing an ex-count from the Whispering Way, to just recently enacting a play to bluff our way into a Nobles manor. All have been great fun with this character, at no point did he feel helpless or useless (or even underpowered).
Other Characters played (all of equal level)
Ranger 7/Barbarian 2
Cleric of Desna 9
Invoker(ish) 9
Bard 9
Inquisitor 9
Fighter 9The rogue is a more of the seedier/dirty side of the town character who is the info-gatherer, sometimes scout or support the scout. In combat, helps the others by providing bonuses, tripping, or finally leaping in to finish off an opponent. Somewhat of a dirty fighter. The character is fun, has been fun, and will be fun. Thanks for looking it over.
Thank you!
As a player, I like to actually win.
No winning or losing in D&D.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If by non-sequitur, you mean perfectly reasonable question, then yes.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.Keywords being you. I want to see an actual experience where rogue fun was had. That shouldn't be hard for anyone who has had fun playing a rogue.
For you, Marthkus, I present my friend's "MVP rogue" from Serpent's Skull. This is his endgame stats pulled directly from his google doc character sheet.
William Reed
Human Rogue 17
S12
D20
C12
I18
W12
CH12
hp 125
AC 28(touch 19, flat-footed 28)
F+9, R+18, W+9
CMB +13, CMD 30
+3 rapier +20/+15/+10
Acrobatics +23, appraise +9, bluff +18, climb +10, diplomacy +18, disable device +26, disguise +4, escape artist +24, know(arcana) +6, know (dungeoneering) +16, know(engineering) +8, know(geo) +10, know(hist)+13, know(local) +10, know(nature)+11, know(nobility)+8, know(planes)+6, know(religion)+7, linguistics +6, perception +21, ride +9, sense motive +13, sleight of hand +15, stealth +22, swim +5, UMD +17.
Feats: combat expertise, improved feint, improved dirty trick, step up, mobility, gang up, leadership, greater feint, spring attack, following step. Weapon finesse and dodge from rogue tricks.
traits were rich parents, mwangi scholar.
trap spotter, finesse rogue, combat trick, coax information, improved evasion, skill mastery, opportunist, hide in plain sight(underground).
gear: +3 rapier, +1 wounding dagger, +4 mithral chain shirt, +1 amulet of natural armor, +3 ring of deflection, cloak of resistance +3, belt of dexterity +2, boots of speed, ring of mind shielding, luck stone, dust of tracelessness x2, custum belt buckle that casts pretsidigitation, cleaning self/clothing only, at will.
That's a real character, really played from 1-17, and much of that in a party of 3. Leadership was his level 11 feat and he used it to take a plot important NPC as a cohort. Math errors, if any, are the player's; I just copied stuff directly from his sheet. This character was fun, survived the entire AP, and was not a drain on his party. His equipment is severly suboptimal and probably way below WBL for 17.
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No winning or losing in D&D.
As a player, I like to actually win.
That's b+##~%+$.
You can't "win D&D", but you can win a fight, win the heart of a fair maiden, win a war for your liege lord, win fame and renown as a hero of the people, win great wealth through your skill at arms, or even win Godhood via the Test of the Starstone.
And you know what you need to win any of those? An effective character at doing that thing, extraordinary luck, or GM fiat. The second is impossible to make happen, and the third is possible but a bit metagamey to actually ensure...but the first is very doable. So I do.
I'm not saying I need to 'win the game'...but if my character sets out to do a level-appropriate thing (like ruin a cruel noble's reputation, or slay a dragon, or any of the examples above) I like for him to have some hope of actually accomplishing it. And in most Pathfinder games, that requires mechanical support.
No problem. The char is not optimized (at least not intentionally) but for what the story is, does, and looks to do, is the right fit. I am not sure what the numbers will do to help determine what is fun about the character though. Let me know what you think (try to be nice).
If by non-sequitur, you mean perfectly reasonable question, then yes.
All I would really want is
1) starting stats
2) level you played to
3) feats you had
4) talents you had
5) skill ranks you had
6) Description of the campaign you had fun in.Keywords being you. I want to see an actual experience where rogue fun was had. That shouldn't be hard for anyone who has had fun playing a rogue.
For you, Marthkus, I present my friend's "MVP rogue" from Serpent's Skull. This is his endgame stats pulled directly from his google doc character sheet.
post:William Reed
Human Rogue 17
S12
D20
C12
I18
W12
CH12
hp 125
AC 28(touch 19, flat-footed 28)
F+9, R+18, W+9
CMB +13, CMD 30
+3 rapier +20/+15/+10
Acrobatics +23, appraise +9, bluff +18, climb +10, diplomacy +18, disable device +26, disguise +4, escape artist +24, know(arcana) +6, know (dungeoneering) +16, know(engineering) +8, know(geo) +10, know(hist)+13, know(local) +10, know(nature)+11, know(nobility)+8, know(planes)+6, know(religion)+7, linguistics +6, perception +21, ride +9, sense motive +13, sleight of hand +15, stealth +22, swim +5, UMD +17.Feats: combat expertise, improved feint, improved dirty trick, step up, mobility, gang up, leadership, greater feint, spring attack, following step. Weapon finesse and dodge from rogue tricks.
traits were rich parents, mwangi scholar.
trap spotter, finesse rogue, combat trick, coax information, improved evasion, skill mastery, opportunist, hide in plain sight(underground).
gear: +3 rapier, +1 wounding dagger, +4 mithral chain shirt, +1 amulet of natural armor, +3 ring of deflection, cloak of resistance +3, belt of dexterity +2, boots of speed, ring of mind shielding, luck stone, dust of tracelessness x2, custum belt buckle that casts pretsidigitation, cleaning self/clothing only, at will.
That's a real character, really played from 1-17, and much of that in a party of 3. Leadership was his level 11 feat and he used it to take a plot important NPC as a cohort. Math errors, if any, are the player's; I just copied stuff directly from his sheet. This character was fun, survived the entire AP, and was not a drain on his party. His equipment is severly suboptimal and probably way below WBL for 17.
Were those the starting stats or final stats? I would like to see the starting stats.
Also, this is not your rogue. Does the person you lifted it from attest to the fun they had?Also could you provide more description on the campaign, and further describe the rogues interaction with it? Please give the player's perspective.
Did you want more examples? 3.5 game:
2) 7th (2 rogue/3 Cleric/2 ranger)
3) Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting
4) N/A
5) Rogue skills maxed for level, plus knowledge religion, Knowledge Planes, Survival, Sense Motive.
6) We had played in a previous campaign where our characters were the heroes, in a cmapaign involving corrupted pools (very pools of radiance). Our old characters retired, and we made new ones to live in the world after those events. In one coastal city, we had made the decision to skip solving the undead problem there to end the overall major threat. I made a rogue character that before the undead attacked had a young pregnant wife and a tattoo business. His wife and unborn child died, due to the non-intervention by the other party, and was bitter about it. He too, took up the adventurer lifestyle and ended up in the capital of the nation, and sought to undo the heroes accolades because of his loss. He joined the thieves guild, there and found out that if you become a priest of the god of murder, you're rank increases within the guild, so he became an acolyte, but really drank the kool-aid. He excelled and took over the assassins in the guild, learned how to track folks and assassinate them, etc. He was working toward assassin PrC, but hadn't quite fallen completely into evil yet.
Had tons of fun with this character. One of the other players was a Paladin, and they adventured side by side. He had no idea how far down the rabbit hole he had gotten.
But, the campaign ended prematurely.
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