If I were creating a lawful totalitarian kind of state, I would, as stated above, simply handout badges to people when they enter the city. Caught in the city without a badge, such as appearing out of nowhere, straight to jail with you...and burrowing...really, no one would notice that!
"Badges? Of course I have a badge. I have your" -- silent still fabricate -- "badge right here."
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Of course there is an answer for everything, but in a magical world, magic should be accounted for.
The problem is that nothing you've suggested is actually effective at accounting for magic. Or, moreover, you're spending a huge amount of resources to develop measures to harass magic-wielders, but the measures are trivial to overcome by those very same magic-wielders.
Antimagic field at every gate? Even assuming that you could make it permanent (strict RAW, you can't), it would still cost at least 15,000 per gate in diamond dust, plus the cost of the caster. As as has been mentioned, this really only keeps out people who don't have access to second level spells, e.g. first and second level casters, and/or people who can't afford potions.
Now you're suggesting that badges will do the trick, something that I can take care of with a well-chosen silent image or disguise self. Assuming, of course, that I'm not smart enough simply to choose to appear in someplace like a dark alley where I'm not under observation. Or were you planning to hire enough guards to have every square meter of the town under constant surveillance?
You also still haven't provided any way to actually enforce this totalitarian state:
"Hey, you, appearing out of nowhere! Let me see your badge."
"You don't need to see his badge."
"We don't need to see your badge."
"We can wander the town freely."
"You can wander the town freely."
"Move along."
"Move along."
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"I don't understand how we got by those troops. I thought we were dead."
"The suggestion spell can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."
"The suggestion spell can.... hey, stop doing that!"
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Secret to rogue AC by level 10
Normal WBL, high dex max magic armor.
Receive buff spells like barkskin and mage armor.
Prebuff: AC: 22 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 1 nat + 1AC + 2enh || touch: 18
Postbuff: AC: 28 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 4 nat + 4AC + 2enh || touch: 18
If your rogue wildshapes into an air elemental that AC goes up to 32 :P
Two things:
#1: Your Armor's Enhancement bonus is part of the armor bonus, and thus does not stack with Mage Armor. Much like an Amulet of Natural Armor doesn't stack with Barkskin.
#2: And far more importantly, it doesn't matter because you're wearing a Mithral Chain Shirt +2 or maybe even +3 by that point barring serious weirdness. It's by far the best armor/price ratio at that level for a Rogue type.
Secret to rogue AC by level 10
Normal WBL, high dex max magic armor.
Receive buff spells like barkskin and mage armor.
Prebuff: AC: 22 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 1 nat + 1AC + 2enh || touch: 18
Postbuff: AC: 28 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 4 nat + 4AC + 2enh || touch: 18
If your rogue wildshapes into an air elemental that AC goes up to 32 :P
Two things:
#1: Your Armor's Enhancement bonus is part of the armor bonus, and thus does not stack with Mage Armor. Much like an Amulet of Natural Armor doesn't stack with Barkskin.
#2: And far more importantly, it doesn't matter because you're wearing a Mithral Chain Shirt +2 or maybe even +3 by that point barring serious weirdness. It's by far the best armor/price ratio at that level for a Rogue type.
#1 Was accounted for
#2 lawl no. more like Mithral trap.
Most my players have been with me for several campaigns, so I don't think its that bad if you do it right. I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.
Granted, not everytime necessarily, but the fear of it happening is enough to stop it a large amount of the time.
DM fiat can make anything work. That its necessary demonstrates the problem.
#2 lawl no. more like Mithral trap.
How do you figure that? Armor bonus of +4, +3 enhancement bonus, and a maximum dexterity of "only" +6 still leaves you with 10+6+1+1+4+3 = 25, pre-buff. Barkskin raises it to 28 if you need it.
DM fiat can make anything work. That its necessary demonstrates the problem.Most my players have been with me for several campaigns, so I don't think its that bad if you do it right. I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.
Granted, not everytime necessarily, but the fear of it happening is enough to stop it a large amount of the time.
Very True.
Unfortunately the 5 minute adventuring day causes many of the games worst balance issues, and it becomes easier and easier to do for the classes that benefit from it the most at higher levels.
DM fiat can make anything work. That its necessary demonstrates the problem.Most my players have been with me for several campaigns, so I don't think its that bad if you do it right. I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.
Granted, not everytime necessarily, but the fear of it happening is enough to stop it a large amount of the time.
Yeah. I don't think anyone's yet found it necessary (at my table) to ask for a house ruling on whether 2+5 = 7, or whether ice melts when you bring it into a warm room.
When the rules work, they work. It's when the rules don't work that you need to start making house rulings about whether or not you can wield a two-handed weapon with your hands in handcuffs.
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Unfortunately the 5 minute adventuring day causes many of the games worst balance issues, and it becomes easier and easier to do for the classes that benefit from it the most at higher levels.
Yeah, but that's also realistic. If you know what you're doing, "adventuring" doesn't take a lot of time, and in fact, the better you are, the less time it takes. The designer of the MAC-10 famously said that the weapon was designed "to take out a room full of very surprised colonels." The point, of course, being that it's a great weapon for knocking out all opposition very quickly before they have time to react or even to duck for cover.
Writ larger, that's the principle behind most commando raids; do absolutely nothing of interest until you get to the target, inflict massive damage, and then disappear. If that means dropping in by parachute instead of walking through enemy lines, great.
If it means teleportation,... well, that's a capacity that DARPA would love to develop precisely so that elite troops can take advantage of the five minute adventuring day. Put on the coffee, press the button, walk to the transporter, <Bamf!> You're now in Pyongyang, grab the target, <Bamf> you're back at Ft. Blair, and <ding!> your coffee is ready. Nice and hot, just the way to celebrate a successful raid.
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#1 Was accounted for
Uh...where's the +2 Enhancement bonus in the second line coming from then?
#2 lawl no. more like Mithral trap.
Yeah...not in the least. +5 AC (what you gain net from +2 Mithral) is better than +3 (what you gain net for +2 Padded or Haramaki), and has no Armor Check penalty. You'll probably replace it with Celestial Armor eventually, but in the meantime it's great.
#1 Was accounted forUh...where's the +2 Enhancement bonus in the second line coming from then?
Did you not know that mage armor gave base AC not enhancement bonus AC? It doesn't stack with normal armor.
*This is also why chain shirt is rather pointless.
He's asking why your post included an enhancement bonus when you're using mage armor.
Because I'm still wearing armor. Mage armor overrides the base AC it gives not the enhancement bonus.
Yeah it does, you get one of the other. The enhancement bonus increases the armour bonus of what you are wearing. You don't get to divide them up like that.
No it gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, which stacks with mage armor.
Yeah it does, you get one of the other. The enhancement bonus increases the armour bonus of what you are wearing. You don't get to divide them up like that.No it gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, which stacks with mage armor.
No it really doesn't. It's the same as weapon enhancement bonuses; the bonus is to the item's bonus; that is, the item is augmented by the enhancement bonus. A +4 suit of studded leather armor has an armor bonus of +7, not an armor bonus of +3 and an enhancement bonus of +4.
Yeah it does, you get one of the other. The enhancement bonus increases the armour bonus of what you are wearing. You don't get to divide them up like that.No it gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, which stacks with mage armor.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Emphasis mine. Enhancement bonuses to armor aren't a separate modifier to AC, they are simply an increase of the armor bonus.
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A couple of thoughts for the pro-skills camp:
Some of the spells that are commonly thought of as making skills irrelevant actually still involve a check. Exibit A: Knock. It doesn't automatically open locked doors.. you still need to make a caster level check against the Disable Device DC. You can more easily get bonuses to the skill check (morale, equipment, etc) than to the caster level check.
Another thing that often skews in favor of spells over skills is a loosely enforced equipment system. Yes, a scroll of fly or spider climb will render a skill check moot, but should the scroll or potion even still be intact after you were slimed, fireballed, dropped down a pit, or etc earlier in the adventure? Checking for damage to equipment is virtually never done when a PC fails a save vs some nasty fate, and remembering to do that can help reward skill investments.
Skills, unlike potions or scrolls, can't be sundered or stolen.
Skills, unlike spells, can't be turned off via Dispel Magic.
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Yeah it does, you get one of the other. The enhancement bonus increases the armour bonus of what you are wearing. You don't get to divide them up like that.No it gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, which stacks with mage armor.
This is incorrect. For example look here. He has a +1 Chain shirt, which is listed as a +5 armor bonus, not a +4 armor bonus and a +1 enhancement bonus. This usage is universal.
Also, to quote the actual rules:
Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
EDIT: Seriously ninja'd. Ah, well.
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After that you really start needing to contrive situations so the party can't just teleport out and come back tommorow, or set up shop in a tiny combat hut.Magic isn't really a limited resource after level 7 though. And it gets progressively less so.That really depends on how much the GM softballs things for spellcasters.
Some sort of timed element isn't exactly an uncommon thing, you know. Its like another thread...if the party spends a week running away every time the wizurd casts more than a couple of his spells, it's not unreasonable for the BBEG to go ahead and kill the damsel in distress.
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I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.So, in short, you realize that skills and spells are unbalanced, and you balance them by nerfing spells -- which is one of the main two methods we've been talking about.
Or perhaps he realizes that teleporting away doesn't put the bad guys on "PAUSE".
They now KNOW you are coming, they've seen a bit of what you can do, they know you run away crying like a little girl with a skinned knee every time the skinny geek in the big hat feels a little sleepy, etc.
Yeah it does, you get one of the other. The enhancement bonus increases the armour bonus of what you are wearing. You don't get to divide them up like that.No it gives you an enhancement bonus to AC, which stacks with mage armor.This is incorrect. For example look here. He has a +1 Chain shirt, which is listed as a +5 armor bonus, not a +4 armor bonus and a +1 enhancement bonus. This usage is universal.
Also, to quote the actual rules:
Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
EDIT: Seriously ninja'd. Ah, well.
Hmmmm I should have expected something was amiss when I managed to get competent AC on a rogue.
Hmmmm I should have expected something was amiss when I managed to get competent AC on a rogue.
If you really, really want that AC, I suppose you could use a buckler. It'll reduce the accuracy of your off-hand attack, of course, but it's not like Rogues can hit the broad side fo a mountain anyway, so no loss...
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Hmmmm I should have expected something was amiss when I managed to get competent AC on a rogue.
As mentioned, a +2 Mithral Chain Shirt actually does have nearly that much AC with Barkskin cast. A +3 Mithral Chain Shirt, and a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (or the right kind of Ioun Stone) and you can do even better (26 standard, 29 with Barkskin, 30-33 if you spring for a Wand of Shield and utilize UMD). Rogue AC is actually not that bad if you do it right...their problems lie in other areas.
I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.So, in short, you realize that skills and spells are unbalanced, and you balance them by nerfing spells -- which is one of the main two methods we've been talking about.Or perhaps he realizes that teleporting away doesn't put the bad guys on "PAUSE".
They now KNOW you are coming, they've seen a bit of what you can do, they know you run away crying like a little girl with a skinned knee every time the skinny geek in the big hat feels a little sleepy, etc.
Sure, when you come back, the enemy might be ready and know something about you, but the alternative is not teleporting and dying on the spot.
I think the funniest thing about these totalitarian cities is that in the given examples they stop at just dealing with magic. If they are going to spend so much money and manpower, why don't they just take the extra step to negate mundane threats as well. Why no physical pat downs that foil your mundane disguise? Why not Zones of Truth or Detect Thoughts to see through your mundane bluff?
If you want to be serious about the effects of magic on society, why does it still remotely resemble a historical society at all?You think most campaign worlds DO remotely resemble a historical society in other than superficial ways?
Kings which should be killed on a weekly basis but never the less manage to survive check. Knights on horses that whould be obsolete from a 750gp magic item, check. Armies, check. Large governments that should have been taken over by level 15 adventurers, check.
there's a whole slew of things that magic SHOULD have changed.
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I think there is a difference between calling some and all skills useless - I believe most people who find skills frustrating are mostly complaining about some skills that mature poorly. In general some skills remain relevant for the extent of the game, some are very quickly replaced by spells or items, most are somewhere in the middle.
Let's try some examples:
Climb, Swim, Linguistics, and Appraise are skills with a short shelf life.
Swim and Appraise both have upper DCs of around 20 (Appraise common item/Swim in stormy seas) - once you are able to take 10 and hit that point, you don't really need more ranks. Furthermore, Swim is very quickly eclipsed by low level and common spells such as Touch of the Sea and a host of different items that give you, among other things, a swim speed. Finally, if you're in an aquatic campaign or someplace where underwater combat is common, the players will do whatever they need to do to gain a swim speed - not a bonus to the swim skill. Why? Because a +50 to swim does the same thing as a +20, whereas a swim speed opens up charge, run, withdraw, five foot steps - all kinds of things.
Climb has a slightly higher DC cap (30 for "an overhang or ceiling with handholds"), but like Swim it is very quickly replaced by spells and/or items the PC is expected to have access to by level 5 or so - Levitate, Spider Climb, Fly, and later on Dimension Door and Teleport. Like with Swim, what you really want isn't a good climb skill modifier, but a climb speed.
Linguistics is an interesting and very flavorful skill that is completely eclipsed by a level 1 spell. Ranks in linguistics give you the ability to speak one language per rank, and you have a chance to decipher old writing with DCs ranging from 20 to 30. If you fail the roll, you need to make a Wisdom check to avoid drawing false conclusions from the text.
Ooor you could (yet again) use a level 1 spell (Comprehend Languages) that lasts 10 minutes/level, that allows you to understand and read ALL languages, and has no chance of misunderstandings. Adding insult to injury, Comprehend Languages can be permanency'd for 2500 GP. If you want the deluxe edition, Tongues can be made permanent for 7500 GP. Don't have access to a high level spellcaster? No problem, the Helm of Comprehend Languages is only 5200 GP.
The one thing Linguistics has going for it is forgeries. It is interesting but unlikely to be a common sight in your typical adventure - off the top of my head I can't think of any APs where linguistics is used to detect forgeries.
On the other hand you have skills that mature decently to well: Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate, Sense Motive, Survival, Stealth and many knowledge skills.
Finally, you have skills that will most likely remain relevant for the full extent of your campaign: Perception, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.
Now, you can take steps to remedy this - if your PCs are placed in a society where everyone communicates through body language and use knots instead of writing, Comprehend Languages and Tongue will not be able to solve the communication problems (though telepathy likely would).
If your PCs are in a world of savvy political intrigue and everyone are constantly using spells and items to ward against charm and compulsion spells, diplomacy/bluff will likely be more attractive since you can't dominate your way to popularity.
Climb... Okay, I can't think of an example where a climb skill will remain relevant past ~lvl 7. I can only do so much.
You can also create house rules to help make these skills become more attractive. For instance, if you roll a climb check of 30 or better, you are treated as though you have a climb speed of your climb check result divided by 2 for the duration of that round. If you rolled a 40, you'd have a climb speed of 20.
Ultimately though, if the GM has to step in and create arbitrary restrictions or make his own alterations to make skills feel relevant, I personally think that says there is an underlying problem with the way those skills are designed.
While it's clear that magic can eclipse anything non-magical in the game, there are circumstances where skills really, really shine, and most of the time all it really requires is surprise. For example, I play a one handed Oracle with a really poor Climb score, but who has a wings revelation. We had a fight on a giant pyramid stair case... and the enemies started shoving us down the stairs. A bad role knocked me out of the air and my DM made it a climb check to stop my fall. I spent 3 rounds falling down the stairs before my teammates managed to stop me.
You can have that sort of thing pop up for lots of skills. Magic requires time to cast, expenditure of resources, and people can usually tell when you are casting it. A creative DM can find all sorts of ways to get skills to be more relevant in the right context. Heck, an easy way is to give the party less reliable rests to recover spell slots, more frequent encounters, that sort of thing.
I guess I'm totally cool with PC's using spells during skill encounters, as long as everyone gets a chance to shine. If I see a wizard doing blowing through all of my skill encounters, fine, but if he's being a spotlight hog by over-shadowing a PC with the skills I would address that by asking him to give his teammates a try, or buffing them to blow through it. Players should be mindful not to step on each others toes, but to accentuate or augment their friends, maybe the wizard can have a private smile to himself and keep his levitate scroll in it's case while the fighter talks about how he made it up the mountain to get that damsel in distress.
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Mithral kikko armor is better than enhancing a mithral chain shirt btw
This is true beyond a certain point. I'd missed that Mithral Kikko didn't have any armor check penalty. That's shiny.
Still, Mithral Kikko is about 4k, nearly double the price of a Mithral Chain Shirt +1 (which is the same AC). Still probably worth it if you can afford it in the long term (since Mithral Kikko +1 is the same price as a Mithral Chain Shirt +2, and the kikko progressively gets cheaper for the same AC from there), but a Chain Shirt, or the +1 version, is available a lot sooner.
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Could it be that like the (theoretical) balance between martials/casters, the problem with skills/spells is that if you have to make a LOT of skill "moments" per day, the spells become rather uneconomical?
If you have to get past one locked door, Knock is nice. If you're breaching a high-security area with basically every door locked, Disable Device might become much more efficient.
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Could it be that like the (theoretical) balance between martials/casters, the problem with skills/spells is that if you have to make a LOT of skill "moments" per day, the spells become rather uneconomical?
If you have to get past one locked door, Knock is nice. If you're breaching a high-security area with basically every door locked, Disable Device might become much more efficient.
This high-security area would have to invest A LOT of resources to make sure the only way to bypass the doors is to unlock them - earth gliding, becoming ethereal, gaseous form... There are a lot of options for bypassing doors in the caster toolbox.
Apart from that, yes - the weak spot for magic is typically attrition, though that becomes less and less of an issue as the caster levels up. However if a skill becomes too prevalent, the players will likely try to acquire items that bypasses the problem completely.
For instance, you could have a one or two swim encounter in a large (non-aquatic) dungeon. The players may or may not have the proper gear and spells to be prepared to take a dip.
However if the entire dungeon is a giant underwater maze, odds are they'll prepare underwater spells and/or acquire swimming gear such as the cloak of the manta ray, completely sidelining the swim skill.
You could have a series of challenging climb checks in the darklands spaced out so that the party will expend their Fly resources before they are done, but a campaign where mountain climbing is a big theme will likely see players investing in items like the Cloak of Arachnida or simply playing a class with a natural climb speed.
Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.
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Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.
People keep saying this, but I would love to see concrete examples that magic isn't the answer.
Btw, I mostly GM, and I try to make skills relevant, but it gets hard. Except for knowledges, those stay relevant for a long time.
If you want to be serious about the effects of magic on society, why does it still remotely resemble a historical society at all?You think most campaign worlds DO remotely resemble a historical society in other than superficial ways?Kings which should be killed on a weekly basis but never the less manage to survive check. Knights on horses that whould be obsolete from a 750gp magic item, check. Armies, check. Large governments that should have been taken over by level 15 adventurers, check.
there's a whole slew of things that magic SHOULD have changed.
Kings which should be killed on a weekly basis but never the less manage to survive: maybe they are and raised from the dead. But also there is such a thing as scry protection and teleportation locks.
Knights on horses that whould be obsolete from a 750gp magic item. Not if they are high level knights comparable to wealth per level to buy a 750 gp item.
Armies- Hight level char can defeat armies. But armies are better at holding territory. So armies are more for after the battle is won and if you are going to bring them anyway they might as well help.
Large governments that should have been taken over by level 15 adventurers. Maybe they were but now the government has level 15 chars running it. They will be hard to take out.
Skills aren't useless, per se, albeit some do not scale very well to the resources of higher level parties. The problem is that, for the most part, they are not defining capabilities that you build a character around, but rather as a means of interacting with the world--the price to pay the game, really. There's a certain amount of fun in being the guy with the most tools, but the best ones are tools that everyone has, and when those tools simply don't apply in a meaningful way, you want other tricks at your disposal.
I think there is a difference between calling some and all skills useless - I believe most people who find skills frustrating are mostly complaining about some skills that mature poorly. In general some skills remain relevant for the extent of the game, some are very quickly replaced by spells or items, most are somewhere in the middle.
Seconding this. It's definitely overstretching to say that there are no skills that stay relevant even in the face of spells, but it's just as much of a stretch to say that every skill holds up just fine. The key seems to be ensuring that a high skill modifier stays relevant and useful; one thing all the weak skills have in common is that they don't reward investment beyond a bare minimum, and skill checks are either rare or easily bypassed.
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Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.People keep saying this, but I would love to see concrete examples that magic isn't the answer.
Btw, I mostly GM, and I try to make skills relevant, but it gets hard. Except for knowledges, those stay relevant for a long time.
If you're doing with magic what you could be doing with spells, your wizard is a wasteful idiot that will eventually end up in a situation where he will have wasted all his magic trying to prove that the rogue is obsolete, and won't have the necessary magic to prove that the wizard himself is actually needed as anything other than a limited use rogue-wannabe.
If you're doing with magic what you could be doing with spells, your wizard is a wasteful idiot that will eventually end up in a situation where he will have wasted all his magic trying to prove that the rogue is obsolete, and won't have the necessary magic to prove that the wizard himself is actually needed as anything other than a limited use rogue-wannabe.Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.People keep saying this, but I would love to see concrete examples that magic isn't the answer.
Btw, I mostly GM, and I try to make skills relevant, but it gets hard. Except for knowledges, those stay relevant for a long time.
"Wasted all his magic"?
Like all of the spells that obsolete certain skills are 1st and 2nd level. What do YOU do with low level slots at high levels? Because personally all I use them for is plinking cannon fodder with stuff I don't care about just to have something to do in a round in an easy combat, and Grace. Because Grace is da bomb diggity.
If you're doing with magic what you could be doing with spells, your wizard is a wasteful idiot that will eventually end up in a situation where he will have wasted all his magic trying to prove that the rogue is obsolete, and won't have the necessary magic to prove that the wizard himself is actually needed as anything other than a limited use rogue-wannabe.
Unless you are making a very elaborate argument about WBL and the ease of low level utility spells for arcane spellcasters, there is a typo in there somewhere.
Or, you know, you can have A 2ND WIZARD FILLINg THE "ROGUE" SLOT.
Rather than forcing the 1 wizard play 2 roles you have your "god" wizard doing his thing, and then you can have a Seeker Sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline act as a scout. You can then have Ravingdork's Transmuter of sheer retardedness act as the tank and a Witch to cover curing. Hey! An all full arcane casting party
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Or, you know, you can have A 2ND WIZARD FILLINg THE "ROGUE" SLOT.
Rather than forcing the 1 wizard play 2 roles you have your "god" wizard doing his thing, and then you can have a Seeker Sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline act as a scout. You can then have Ravingdork's Transmuter of sheer retardedness act as the tank and a Witch to cover curing. Hey! An all full arcane casting party
I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
But, to each their own...
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Incidentally, in my home games caster level has zero to do with magic item crafting. It's purely skill based. I don't give a rat's ass how powerful your archmage is, if he isn't a good enough smith he can't make a magic weapon or armor.
You may want to check out the 'Slaine' d20 RPG, from Mongoose, based on the 2000AD magazine, Celtic berserker strip of the same name by Pat Mills and various artists (including at one point, our own Wayne Reynolds).
Most, if not all, spells had prerequisites to learning, or required skill checks as part of the casting, which added to their casting time accordingly.
No point casting divinations, if you don't have the Knowledge to interpret what you're shown.
My favourite was their rather grisly variant on disguise self/alter self; in D&D/PF, this would be accomplished with a click of the fingers.
In Slaine, the caster had to skin a victim (Heal check not to spoil it), make a skinsuit (Craft leather), and it would then grant a bonus to Disguise (so it'd help if you had some ranks in that). And that would allow you to pass as the dead person, no-one else. So you'd better move quick, before his tribe realise he's missing...