Spellbook as scrolls and related shenanigans


Rules Questions


I'm gonna try and keep this short.

Wizard says he can use his spellbook as scrolls, GM wasn't sure, but the player insists, and the GM has allowed it till now. It's getting to be an issue, because the wizard acquired the spellbooks of a level 20+ wizard, and our wizard is running around with 30+ Int, and is claiming he can cast everything from the spellbook.

The GM finally asked me to look it up for him, because I have a tendency to track down weird things easily. The GM is pretty sure it's shenanigans, but doesn't want to confront them until he's had independent confirmation, and he knows I post our shenanigans here on Paizo. :)

According to what I've found, it's a popular Homebrew rule from 2nd edition. Since our Wizard started playing in 2nd edition, and there's no references in 3.5/Pathfinder, I'm thinking it's old training/knowledge.

I'm now asking for any comments you guys have on this in regards to rules, I will likely end up posting about this in Advice later too, because:

The wizard used this as part of a loophole that ended up with him getting near infinite Wish usages, and a crap ton of money/valuable items (I have no idea how it works, cept for "Pretty well actually"). This is part of the reason why he is has 30 int, he should have around 22 or so otherwise. The GM managed to incorporate this into the campaign (And that level 20+ Wizard is coming to get his stuff back :P), he did not raise many objections at the time, the Wizard being a good friend, the person who is GMing the other Pathfinder game we're in, and is supposed to be the second most experienced player in our group.

The Wizard is casting higher level spells (Those he has no slot for (Max of level 3 spells, spell is level 4), but could eventually cast when he levels), and saying it's fine because it's in the spellbook, he "Knows" it as a result. He does have the stat for it as a result.

My character took a dip into wizard, and I went to him to try and trade spells, he's advised me to not scribe scroll, just make a second spellbook.

I'm fairly certain that the Wizard is mistaken, not intentionally causing issues, so please be nice, he might find this thread someday. XD

Same with the GM, this is his second time GMing, he wasn't ready to get steamrolled like this. XD

Scarab Sages

HERE is the SRD on spellbooks.

TL;DR Spellbooks are not scrolls, one contains the knowledge of a spell and the other contains the knowledge and power (and is thus more expensive). Just because he has the knowledge of a spell and the intellect required doesn't mean he can cast the spells, he needs the right lvl spell slot or a proper scroll.

Petty thieves are not worth a 20th level wizard's time and clearly it wasnt the wizard's only spellbook, might I suggest a lovely Mithral Golem accompanied by the wizard's familiar with a "give me back my stuff, all magical equipment, and gold, or die horribly" letter?

Bonus points for having the familiar cast Bestow Curse to lower the wizard's intelligence by 6 permanently, DC 20 or so. (a little plot magic might be required to believe that the familiar didn't touch anyone while finding the wizard)


There were old mechanics in editions long forgotten that would allow you to tear the pages out of a spellbook to use as a scroll, but those days are long past.

Should the DM allow it, scrolls become wildly obsolete when compared to the pricing of buying an extra spellbook, and scribing the spells you want into said spellbook, without even needing to use the Scribe Scroll feat.


Timebomb wrote:
Petty thieves are not worth a 20th level wizard's time and clearly it wasnt the wizard's only spellbook, might I suggest a lovely Mithral Golem accompanied by the wizard's familiar with a "give me back my stuff, all magical equipment, and gold, or die horribly" letter?

Near as I can tell, he's decided to have a LOT of fun with us.

We found the one 20+ level wizard in existence that was bored, and had nothing better to do. D:

Thanks for confirmation both of ya, I'll wait a bit so that if there are any dissenting viewpoints they'll pop up, then go to Advice for alternatives (Starting form least changes made, to most changes made). :)

The Exchange

You've pretty much nailed it. As I understand it that was a popular houserule that involved tearing out the spellbook pages to use as a scroll.

The flipside of that is that writing a spell into a spellbook should then cost as much as scribing an identical scroll (or 26,912.5 in the case of wish).

Your GM basically has the choice of retconning everything away or incorporating it into the campaign. Probably the simplest and least "you can't change things on me like that!" solution is to have the level 20+ wizard show up and reclaim his spellbook - which turns out to have been a minor artifact of some kind. If your fellow player's wizard is too far above the power curve the GM can depower him at that time as well. "You have shown great potential in the brief span you wielded this power. Someday I will return it to you."

After the game session the GM can explain to the players how spellbooks work from now on (the way they work under the rules). You just write spells into them and use them to memorize spells each day. You can't use them as scrolls.

You *can* have spells written in spellbooks of a higher level than you have spell slots, but you can't do anything with them until you reach that level. (The bonus spell slots from a high stat don't "come on-line" until you could normally cast a spell of that level.) It's not uncommon for prepared casters to have plenty of spells in their spellbooks they won't be able to cast for many levels.

edit: can't really tell from the original post, but there may be another rule that was not implemented properly. The maximum inherent bonus to a stat (the type you get from wish) is +5 and you have to cast it in successive rounds. In other words he would have needed 5 scrolls of wish, read one after the other.

Oh, and a spellbook is 100 pages. Each spell uses one page per spell level, so wish (level 9) uses 9 pages, so there probably weren't that many "scrolls" to be used.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Sounds like the guy who started in 2nd Edition hasn't opened a rulebook since. :/


Belafon wrote:

edit: can't really tell from the original post, but there may be another rule that was not implemented properly. The maximum inherent bonus to a stat (the type you get from wish) is +5 and you have to cast it in successive rounds. In other words he would have needed 5 scrolls of wish, read one after the other.

Oh, and a spellbook is 100 pages. Each spell uses one page per spell level, so wish (level 9) uses 9 pages, so there probably weren't that many "scrolls" to be used.

I don't know how, but somehow it was cascading, using a wish, to get multiple wishes.

It made no sense to me, but every time I asked, the Wizard and the Oracle (Turned Paladin later), and pointed out that I didn't get it, eventually they would refuse to explain it. :/

With confirmation here, the GM can likely push him on that now.

I just hope it doesn't end with an argument. :(

Scarab Sages

a bored 20th wizard with the plot power of a DM behind hem/her. you're wizard is going to be sorry :D , best of luck. Make your PC stays far, far away.

The Exchange

I hope it doesn't turn into an argument as well.

If it unfortunately does, there's a pretty effective tool GMs have in situations like this without dropping a 20 ton rule zero on the players and making everyone angry. "I believe it works in way X, so that's how I'm going to rule on it. If I am incorrect, show me the correct rule in an official format and I will change my decision. In this case that means a published Pathfinder product or an official post from a Paizo developer."

Wish is always dicey because it is completely up to the GM to adjudicate what it can do outside the listed specific items.


Belafon wrote:
Wish is always dicey because it is completely up to the GM to adjudicate what it can do outside the listed specific items.

Our GM is very trusting, and let's us do things offscreen provided they're legal.

This wish... thing, happened BEFORE the game started during character creation (Much like how you can craft things before you actually start), and happened without the GM being present. He incorporated it into the campaign rather than fight it.

I really do think he didn't want to confront the person who was supposed to be extremely experienced while he's only run one other game. :/

Kinda biting us all in the ass now, which is why he assigned/asked me to research it for him, as I'm a "Neutral third party" that everyone trusts and considers mostly reliable.

Belafon wrote:
I hope it doesn't turn into an argument as well.

I'm hoping that Advice will have a fix that fixes everything, while causing the least trouble too, and least arguement. :/


My group allows wizards to rip out pages of their spellbook and any spellbooks we find to use as 1 time scrolls. You still have to copy spells from other spellbooks into your own, but if it's not your spellbook, and this is important, IT'S NOT YOUR SPELLBOOK. You have not scribed the scrolls into your own book, it represents the study that your character did to learn said spell and any shortcuts you've memorized for it. Spellbooks are personal. I remember lugging around 7 spellbooks in a 3.x game because I hadn't found a blessed book yet to fit everything into. I stole like 3 other wizards spellbooks and it took my character months to transcribe them into his own personal library (I like bookkeeping and when you had that many spells it spanned across 7 100 page spellbooks).


There was a description in either 2nd edition 'skills & powers' or 3.0 that described that a spell book could be anything it didn't have to be a book it could be a collection of scrolls, Knots on a rope, pattern on a kilt or tattoos on your body.
This is the only place I could see him thinking that a spellbook was filled with scrolls, and even that is only because he didn't read any book since then.

My suggestion would be saying you couldn't find anything (since you can't) and ask them were it say they can use a spell book as a scroll. That puts the responsibility on them. Then the DM just says until he can show the DM where the rule is, its not allowed.


We use the "Spellbook as Scroll" option in my games and never had any issues with it.
It lead to some really nice roleplaying moments where the wizard has this speciall spell he want to copy to his spellbook (but didn't had time/roll etc.) for it yet and then this spell could save the day. So he has to decide to keep the spell or rip the page from the spellbook and burn the spell.

(Special note: To memorize a spell a wizard has to have the spell in his own spellbook in our game, so no "I use the BBEG spellbook".
We also raised the copy costs to the scroll costs to keep this in line)


Tryn wrote:

(Special note: To memorize a spell a wizard has to have the spell in his own spellbook in our game, so no "I use the BBEG spellbook".

We also raised the copy costs to the scroll costs to keep this in line)

Well, OW. XD That's 28K for a level 9 spell, versus around 900. That kinda hurts.

----

Thanks all for clarifying this. :D

I started a thread over in Advice for, well, advice. XD

We're gonna stop this "Ability", then come up with an appropriate system to put into place where it's an emergency measure later on. :)

Advice thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qthi?Even-MORE-Shenanigans-D-wait-no-that-shou ld-be-D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Belafon wrote:

You've pretty much nailed it. As I understand it that was a popular houserule that involved tearing out the spellbook pages to use as a scroll.

If I were going to use that rule in Pathfinder, without monkeying with the present rules. I'd require that the caster supply the material component for the spell. (that takes care of the cheap wish dodge), and still use the rules for a possible runaway reaction that will burn more pages and possibly the entire spellbook.)

The Exchange

Teatime42 wrote:
Tryn wrote:

(Special note: To memorize a spell a wizard has to have the spell in his own spellbook in our game, so no "I use the BBEG spellbook".

We also raised the copy costs to the scroll costs to keep this in line)
Well, OW. XD That's 28K for a level 9 spell, versus around 900. That kinda hurts

You also may want to review the costs of scribing spells.

- It's (spell level^2 * 10) for spellbooks (or 810 for a ninth level spell).

- The cost of a scroll (not to be confused with the selling price) is [(spell level * caster level * 25 / 2) + material component costs]. So a level 9 scroll made at CL 17 (the minimum) costs 1912.5 gold plus the cost of any material component. My example above included the 25000 GP material component for wish.


I would say, if allowing spellbooks as scrolls, that you wouldn't require material components when scribing, but they would be required to use.

This is actually a 'funny' requirement on scrolls, since several spells have variable component costs. That makes them either extremely specific or potentially wasteful (scrolls of restoration with 1000gp component for level drain used for just ability damage/drain).

Liberty's Edge

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Keep in mind that all these "using spellbook pages as scrolls" shenanigans are very much house rules. There is nothing in the rules to support this. In fact, the rules very clearly spell out that this cannot be done.

Scrolls are actual magic items that use the Spell Completion method to cast a spell. Spell Completion means "the spell is mostly finished already. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

A spellbook is NOT a Spell Completion magic item, nor is it a Spell Trigger or Command Word magic item. In fact, a standard spellbook is not a magic item at all, at least in the normal sense. It is instead a 'recipe' book detailing all the information needed to learn and cast a spell: every gesture is painstakingly written out in step by step detail, hand drawn diagrams of hand positions might be included, lists of specific material components given, exact words explained (including pronunciation notes etc)

A spell in a spellbook is VERY different from a scroll and really should not be allowed to be interchangeable.

Now, having said that, if a GM wants to allow this as a house rule, and the players are OK with it, then knock thine selves out! But understand that it is ABSOLUTELY a house rule, and not an actual rule.

If I were to consider allowing this sort of house rule in my game, at the very least I would increase the casting time of the spell (probably to a minimum of a full round or longer) AND I would require some sort of difficult caster level check to cast the spell successfully at all. If the check fails, the caster automatically suffer a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps).


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Teatime42 wrote:

I'm gonna try and keep this short.

Wizard says he can use his spellbook as scrolls, GM wasn't sure, but the player insists, and the GM has allowed it till now. It's getting to be an issue, because the wizard acquired the spellbooks of a level 20+ wizard, and our wizard is running around with 30+ Int, and is claiming he can cast everything from the spellbook.

The GM finally asked me to look it up for him, because I have a tendency to track down weird things easily. The GM is pretty sure it's shenanigans, but doesn't want to confront them until he's had independent confirmation, and he knows I post our shenanigans here on Paizo. :)

According to what I've found, it's a popular Homebrew rule from 2nd edition. Since our Wizard started playing in 2nd edition, and there's no references in 3.5/Pathfinder, I'm thinking it's old training/knowledge.

I'm now asking for any comments you guys have on this in regards to rules, I will likely end up posting about this in Advice later too, because:

The wizard used this as part of a loophole that ended up with him getting near infinite Wish usages, and a crap ton of money/valuable items (I have no idea how it works, cept for "Pretty well actually"). This is part of the reason why he is has 30 int, he should have around 22 or so otherwise. The GM managed to incorporate this into the campaign (And that level 20+ Wizard is coming to get his stuff back :P), he did not raise many objections at the time, the Wizard being a good friend, the person who is GMing the other Pathfinder game we're in, and is supposed to be the second most experienced player in our group.

The Wizard is casting higher level spells (Those he has no slot for (Max of level 3 spells, spell is level 4), but could eventually cast when he levels), and saying it's fine because it's in the spellbook, he "Knows" it as a result. He does have the stat for it as a result.

My character took a dip into wizard, and I went to him to try and trade spells, he's advised me to not scribe scroll, just make a second spellbook.

I'm fairly certain that the Wizard is mistaken, not intentionally causing issues, so please be nice, he might find this thread someday. XD

Same with the GM, this is his second time GMing, he wasn't ready to get steamrolled like this. XD

This is actually RAW 1st Ed. Here is the text:

1st Edition, Unearthed Arcana p80 wrote:

Casting spells directly from books

In extremis, the DM may allow a magic-user to cast a spell directly from any sort of spell book just as if the book were a scroll. The book must be of appropriate sort so that the spell matches the profession of the caster, i.e. magic-user spell, magic-user spell book. The caster must be able to know and use the spell in question. (Note that in this regard, reading directly from a spell book differs from the use of scroll spells.)

Direct casting of a spell from a spell book automatically destroys that spell. There is also a 1% chance per level of the spell that the spells immediately preceding and following the spell cast will likewise be destroyed. There is an additional 1% chance that the casting of a spell directly from a spell book will destroy the entire book. A permanency spell, for instance, would not prevent a spell from "disappearing" when cast in this manner; even though writing might remain on the page, that writing will no longer be magical in nature. These strictures apply whether a spell caster is using his or her personal book or the book of another. Read magic is required for one magic user to read another magic user's spell book. This learning process requires 2-8 hours of study per level of the spell, after which time the spell is learned and thereby immediately usable by the magic-user who did the studying.

1st Ed Dungeon Master's Guide p11 wrote:

THE EFFECT OF WISHES ON CHARACTER ABILITY SCORES

It is quite usual for players to use wishes (or alter reality spells found on scrolls) to increase their ability scores in desired areas, whatever the areas might be. It is strongly suggested that you place no restrictions upon such use of wishes. However, at some point it must be made more difficult to go up in ability, or else many characters will eventually be running around with several 18s (or even higher). Therefore, when any ability score reaches 16, then it should be ruled that a wish will have the effect of increasing the ability by only 1/10th of a point. Thus by means of wishes (or wishes and/or alter reality spells) a charisma score of 16 can only be raised to a 17 by the use of 10 such wishes, the score going from 16 to 16.1 with the first wish, 16.2 with the second, and so on. This is not to say that magical books or devices can not raise scores of 16 or better a full point. The prohibition is only on wishes.

Spell book cost in 1st ed:

1,000 gp standard spell book, or 500 gp for a traveling spell book.
100 gp per spell level for each spell contained
Wish (9th level spell) value = 900 gp

Scroll in 1st ed:
XP value = 100 xp / spell level
GP value = 3 * XV value
Wish (9th level spell) value = 2700 gp

Rolled ability scores in 1st ed topped out at 18. Racial ability could bump that up by one to 19 for some stuff. No stat point every four levels like 3.0, 3.5, and PF.

1st ed, it was rare to have a duplicate or other secondary copy of a spell in a spell book, and then, usually a book for home and a traveling book. Rarely did one have more than one copy of a spell to use while adventuring. This is why loosing your spell book was killer.

3.0 added a 5000 XP component cost in Wish, causing you to loose XP each time you cast it. This was kept in 3.5. PF converted XP -> 5GP, so you now have the 25,000 GP cost.

2nd Ed did NOT have this rule [I searched the RTF files]. If used in 2nd Ed, it was a carryover from 1st Ed.

Your player is doing things wrong. Show this text to the GM, and set your player right.

/cevah


As far as i understood it, the gm is relatively new and the player doing these shenanigans is pretty experienced.

An old experienced player abusin loopholes to gain immense power in a game run by a new GM is a bad player. And yes, i call this badwrongfun. Because not only is he abusing the rules, hes doing it against a GM that is far less geared to deal with the situation, thus breaking the game. And this is even before accounting for the experienced player misunderstanding (or more likely ignoring) rules, safe in the assumption that the new GM will not call him on it.

Im not one for bashing other players playstyles, but this guy sounds like a jerk. I guess youll know soon enpugh; how he responds to being called out will tell a lot about his attitude. But I dont give this good odds.


Cevah is right. I remember that part of the Unearthed Arcana. And I've never seen it used, because the price of losing spells, and possibly spells before and after, are permanent. Then you had to track down someone to get the spell again, before you could write it in your book. It wasn't an endless supply of scrolls.

Also note, depending on the level, casting a spell from a scroll at 9th level would be difficult. If you are using the scroll of a 20th level caster, and you are a 1st level caster, you need to roll a natural 20 to cast the scroll.

"If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap."

Edit: I'd really have a problem with that character. It's really abusive to have that kind of intelligence at that level. Ridiculous. Very Monty Hall type of thing.


"The caster must be able to know and use the spell in question."

Since the character is low level, they cannot use the spell to even try to cast from the spell book.

Others (link) have mentioned tearing out spell book pages to use as a scroll. That is trying to avoid loss of other spells from the spell book. This is not supported at all by the Unearthed Arcana rule. If I allowed it at all, I would have had the tear out have a % chance to ruin the torn out pages and perhaps also the ones next door.

Lastly, remember, it sais "In extremis, the DM may allow...". No option for a player to do this without DM approval. It is also an extreme measure, not something ordinary as the OP indicates the wizard used it.

/cevah


I'm posting this to both the Rules thread, and the Advice thread.

I talked with the wizard, but have resisted posting anything related to this until now.

Mostly because the degree of miss-communication that occurred hurts my brain, and makes me irritated. As well as slightly ashamed.

First off, the Wizard has been using scrolls, not casting from his Spellbook. When it was pointed out that he has been saying SPELLBOOK all along, he showed us proof. He had made his scrolls into a book, because he liked the idea. He had been referring to it as a Spellbook, because that was what it had been originally.

I advised him to call it a "Scrollbook" from here on out.

So, how did he do the shenanigans at the beginning?

Well, this was definitely confirmed for shenanigans, but he claims it was indeed a mistake. As I said before, he is generally trustworthy, so I believe him, mostly. I think he may have let his desires affect his attentions, and he was more careless than usual.

How did he get so much money? How did he get those magical items? How did he get the OP spellbooks?

Frikking Candle of Invocation, and Craft Wondrous Item. He failed to spot the crafting cost (Somehow), as well as the spell needed (Somehow)... Okay, seriously, I still don't get Pathfinder Spell Mechanics, I've been told that you can roll a DC check for crafting something you don't have the spell for. Seems like crap to me, but I don't know.

Made a candle, used the candle. YAY! WISHS!

Also, hey look, MORE candles!

-_-

So, I've gone back, helped him remath his Int (He's at 27 now, 18+2 racial+6 Item+1 4th Lvl=27).

He is going to need to be more... transparent about what he's casting and when.

Spellbooks cannot be scrolls. Scrollbooks are an interesting item, and something we're looking at. Think of it as a TCG booster pack, or a bulk/variety pack.

His stat is back in line.

Candles of Invocation have been temporarily banned from the Campaign, GM is looking into ways of balancing it, and how he wants to do so.

The items the Wizard has acquired has also garnered him a large number of enemies, those items came from somewhere, and they would like them back, plzkthxs.

The weakest of those enemies can sneeze our entire group to oblivion.

The Wizard is on a subtle "probation", I will be watching everything he casts, so the GM can do his job with the group instead. We've already spotted him casting a spell from a scroll that he shouldn't have had, his entire inventory list has been requested.

In all Honesty, this all stems from a conversation the Wizard and the GM had, where they took two VERY different conclusions away from it. I love this GM, but in all seriousness, he goofed, big time. He should have payed more attention to this guys character creation. he didn't, because that other player, WAS OUR MAIN GM, and was trusted as a result. I'm not blaming the GM, but in the end, the responsibility was his.

I've played so many games at this point, and so far only 5 of them them have made it past the second full session, and only 2 past the fourth (All of these are Pathfinder and DnD, I have experience in a few other systems, as well as better luck there). My own expertise here comes from logically thinking things through, seeing more games fail than most people (aside from people on this forum XD) ever play (I have made so many characters at this point :( ) and as a result, seeing HOW, and WHY things fail. Actual Game mechanics wise, I'm still mostly stuck back in 3.0, and I barely remember any of it. So, I can understand making epic rules mistakes.

Near as I can tell, the Wizard is used to not being as attentive to the rules as he should be, his own Campaign is heavily Homebrewed (No necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing), and from what I've heard, most games he's played have been even MORE homebrewed. As a result, he's used to not referring to the books, or heeding the rules as much as he probably should. He's used to a degree of freedom and free-wheelingness that isn't part of Normal Pathfinder (Or DnD for that matter).

He's been made aware of these issues, and we're moving forward, and it's been okay so far. 3 sessions later, and everything's going fine.

DM is being more attentive, and I'm being me (The same pretty much), the two power gamers are being reined in a bit (The Wizard being less of a power gamer than the Paladin, ("Uh... how'd you get the advanced template? Why do you have CLW at will? Wait, you're HALF-celestial?")).

(No, I'm not saying that that type of behavior (The Paladin) makes you a powergamer. He is a full on min/maxer, and those are just the results of what he has done, not an indicator of what he is)

And thus I learned the perils of Homebrew.

The rules really are guidelines, but they are IMPORTANT guidelines, and should not be changed unless you have a clear and full understanding of what all the change entails.

Aside from that, the story and the game are always more important, but if you know what you're doing, surprisingly little changes are "needed", and you should be able to work through it. Sometimes you can damage the story more with the change, than with the existing rules.

Don't take any of this as criticism of Homebrew, my community uses it extensively, and I've enjoyed those games. The problem is that it's TOO extensive, and we've been having some issues as a result. This is just one of them, and not the worst. A lot of players are starting to get sloppy, thinking that the rules really aren't all that important, and not paying as much attention to them as they should.

We will be working on that now.


Thing is min-maxing and power gaming are not the same thing. Really At least int he case of the wizard he is outright cheating. There is now ay i can think of to have a 27 int fairly as low level character.

I dont get how a WIZARD is geting wish from the candle. It adds +2cl. Yes it can gate but stuff gated in has to be paid. Again now low level wizard should be using this stuff (admitedly the candle is kind of op but ..)

Really as i said in the other thread. Your dm needs to get a backbone make sure everone is around the same WBL Normally WBL should only be a guideline but if somone is /cheating/ it sounds like your group is what level 4 or 5?

He shouldnt be able to afford any of his stuff


It is true that you can craft without knowing the spell; it adds +5 to the crafting DC. So for 4,200gp plus a few days of crafting time (well, a little over a week by default, but you can do it in 5 days if you can make another +5 DC), you can indeed get a thing that lets you cast gate.

The candle seems bugged, because it's producing a version of the gate spell with a 10k gp material component cost, but seems not to include that in its pricing.

I'm not sure, though, how you get from candles of invocation to +many stats. I don't see anything you can do with it that would obviously let you get wishes in large numbers. I do note: You don't necessarily have to pay the creature, only for "long and involved" service. Granting a wish or two probably isn't, but...

Long story short, no, you can't do that because it is obvious that doing so breaks the game. Therefore no.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Teatime42 wrote:

I'm gonna try and keep this short.

Wizard says he can use his spellbook as scrolls, GM wasn't sure, but the player insists, and the GM has allowed it till now. It's getting to be an issue, because the wizard acquired the spellbooks of a level 20+ wizard, and our wizard is running around with 30+ Int, and is claiming he can cast everything from the spellbook.

The GM finally asked me to look it up for him, because I have a tendency to track down weird things easily. The GM is pretty sure it's shenanigans, but doesn't want to confront them until he's had independent confirmation, and he knows I post our shenanigans here on Paizo. :)

According to what I've found, it's a popular Homebrew rule from 2nd edition. Since our Wizard started playing in 2nd edition, and there's no references in 3.5/Pathfinder, I'm thinking it's old training/knowledge.

It was a rule from 1st edition, from Unearthed Arcana if I recall correctly or from Dragon, but doing that did erase the spell from the book. It was never ported over to the 3.x or Pathfinder editions of the rules.

Again going from memory, but doing that entailed the risk of deleting other spells beside the one cast. It was something like: the spell you cast is always cancelled from the book, and there is a 5% chance multiplied for the level of the spell cast to cancel another 1d4+1 random spells.

It was at best an OPTIONAL rule from a splatbook, Unearthed Arcana, never a core rule. The real problem is that right or wrong, the DM is letting a player bull rush him, and that's not healthy for the game table. The GM is the one that needs to be recognized as the final arbiter of rules for a gaming group, not the messageboard, and not even the books themselves. And if a player is going to ragequit because he can't browbeat a GM with RAW, the group is better off without him.


Although it's not really related to what the character's doing, I'd point out that the big reason not to allow people to use a spellbook as scrolls is that spellbooks are MUCH cheaper and faster than scrolls to create. 810gp and 9 hours of work for a scroll of a 9th level spell? Yes please. And that's without cypher script, even.

BTW, if you really do want unlimited scrolls, there's an official item to give you that. Ultimate Equipment has it in the list of example intelligent items; it's a shield with a scroll mounted to it, and every time you use the scroll a new random spell you know appears. (Presumably still limited to 3rd level, like the armor ability this is based off of.)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Teatime42 wrote:

Frikking Candle of Invocation, and Craft Wondrous Item. He failed to spot the crafting cost (Somehow), as well as the spell needed (Somehow)... Okay, seriously, I still don't get Pathfinder Spell Mechanics, I've been told that you can roll a DC check for crafting something you don't have the spell for. Seems like crap to me, but I don't know.

Made a candle, used the candle. YAY! WISHS!

Also, hey look, MORE candles!

So he is using the craft candle of invocation, gate a genie of his own alignment, ask him to cast a wish trick?

First, making a candle of invocation is a DC 22 spellcraft check. As he hasn't the spell that become a DC 27 check.

Wizard level 6: class skill +3, 6 skills, +10 from int 30 (now reduced to 27 and so +8) = +19. Taking 10 he could make one with his old intelligence, not with his current intelligence or the intelligence he had before using the wishes.
Edit: fount the character level in the otehr thread

Second: he call a genie with gate. Fine. But the rules say:

PRD - Gate wrote:

Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

You control a creature whose HD does not exceed your caster level. I don't know any 6 HD creature that can cast wish.

Now he is in the presence of a uncontrolled genie of his own alignment (I suppose he has made a candle of his alignment).
Hope you are good so that he will only laugh at you and go away, instead of taking you as a slave or killing you.

Assuming he is willing to cooperate, casting wish is a "more involved service", so the genie would ask for appropriate compensation. Appropriate compensation is paying for the wish plus the genie time.
25.000-30.000 gp of stuff or equivalent services.
For a 4th level character that mean indentured service for a few decades for a single wish.


Most likely the first thing the wizard made was a item that gave a bonus to his spellcraft check. 5*5*100=2500
Add to that you can buy a Magical Repository (ultimate campaign pg 99) for 730gp and add an extra +3.
So 6 ranks, +3 class skill, +3 magical repository, +5 magical item, +3 skill focus +2 trait bonus from Theoretical Magician = +22 without any INT bonus. With his +8 that would be +30 take 10 is a 40.
A 40 lets you make pretty much any magical item in the game.

He's still cheating, he's just doing it blatantly and lying about it. There is no way at 6th level he is coming up with the money for the material components... well... unless the DM just handed out hundreds of thousands of gold.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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If the GM wants an in-game reason for a rationality reset (which it sounds like is sorely needed), just have one of the pissed off high level guys fight the wizard with some of their own wishes. "I wish that guy had never owned a candle of invocation" seems to do the trick. Give the PC wizard a DC30 or so Will save to avoid it.

Now the wizard is back to normal, and as a bonus most of the epic enermies have less reason to be pissed off.

Grand Lodge

If I understand correctly it is illegal to use your spell book in pathfinder society as a scroll even if doing so loses the spell from your spell book,
it is also illegal to use another's spell book as a scroll.
And is no exception to this rule?


Yes, there are no exceptions. This is because it's not actually a rule in the first place, just a common houserule people have used. Other people's houserules have no place in PFS (only their own houserules).


Teatime42 wrote:

I'm gonna try and keep this short.

Wizard says he can use his spellbook as scrolls, GM wasn't sure, but the player insists, and the GM has allowed it till now. It's getting to be an issue, because the wizard acquired the spellbooks of a level 20+ wizard, and our wizard is running around with 30+ Int, and is claiming he can cast everything from the spellbook.

The GM finally asked me to look it up for him, because I have a tendency to track down weird things easily. The GM is pretty sure it's shenanigans, but doesn't want to confront them until he's had independent confirmation, and he knows I post our shenanigans here on Paizo. :)

According to what I've found, it's a popular Homebrew rule from 2nd edition. Since our Wizard started playing in 2nd edition, and there's no references in 3.5/Pathfinder, I'm thinking it's old training/knowledge.

I'm now asking for any comments you guys have on this in regards to rules, I will likely end up posting about this in Advice later too, because:

The wizard used this as part of a loophole that ended up with him getting near infinite Wish usages, and a crap ton of money/valuable items (I have no idea how it works, cept for "Pretty well actually"). This is part of the reason why he is has 30 int, he should have around 22 or so otherwise. The GM managed to incorporate this into the campaign (And that level 20+ Wizard is coming to get his stuff back :P), he did not raise many objections at the time, the Wizard being a good friend, the person who is GMing the other Pathfinder game we're in, and is supposed to be the second most experienced player in our group.

The Wizard is casting higher level spells (Those he has no slot for (Max of level 3 spells, spell is level 4), but could eventually cast when he levels), and saying it's fine because it's in the spellbook, he "Knows" it as a result. He does have the stat for it as a result.

My character took a dip into wizard, and I went to him to try and trade spells, he's advised me to not scribe scroll, just make a...

I just want to address this in a big way years down the road. Very few of you where there in the 70's and 80's regarding the question of spellbooks. Yes back in the day of the real game dungeons and dragons. First you had to cast read magic then you had to roll to know. Because there was a limit to the number of spells you could know and use you had to be very careful before using any spell as those known spells could be wasted. If you could not know you could not use the spell, ever. Then after successfully rolling to comprehend a spell you could then copy the spell into your own spellbook. As for casting a spell out of a spellbook there is something the current entitled player base of pathfinder would not understand. Back then you could not easily get spells. The Dungeon Masters guide specifically states spells should be the rarest thing in the universe. Sure you could cast a spell out of "other" wizards spellbooks as if it was a scroll but that would be incredibly stupid and any DM worth their salt would not give the wizard another chance to EVER see that spell again. Thus learning a valuable lesson about the rarity of spells. The spell cast from a spellbook or scroll would disappear forever. As for the scroll having power and the spellbook not, back in the day a spell copied from a scroll was transferred to a spellbook. Power transfers. If a DM was wanting to make a particular point the roll to know a spell was also rolled into the spell failure chance. Remember, casting spells from scrolls was not a 100% chance of success. In fact it was about 20% chance of failure. So casting a spell from a spellbook could mean even if you did find the spell again you may never be able to comprehend it because of your flippant lack of respect of spells.

I just had to say something about this even years later.

Scarab Sages

Didn't you also need to translate the other book which was usually written in a personal shorthand (traps, other languages and ciphers also common) before you could even start casting/learning from it? I know i still use that for the higher level spells anything above 3rd is not going to be in common even before you start on the rest and comprehend language doesn't help when it turns yig sothhot el briamed into avunt avril accip pill. Sure you bypassed the issue pf reading serpent tongue but it still wont make sense till you figure out the wizards writing style. Sure once you crack it the rest of those spells will be yours but its not easy.

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