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Is +3 an appropriate price for an armor enchant that is more powerful than all levels of a fighter's armor training combined?If you look at it from other class's perspectives, +3 is amazingly cheap for what the enchant gives a druid. Ask a Paladin if they'd be willing to spend a +3 bonus just to move full speed in heavy armor. I don't see how negating the ACP and non-proficiency penalties would make the enchant useless, since every other class in the game has to deal with these in order to wear armor as well.
It's true that Wild armor enhancement is powerful, but it's no where near being cheap for what it grants. This is simply due to fact that Wild Shape ability itself becomes more useful when you upgrade your armor with Wild enhancement. If you don't, Wild Shape's ability is mediocre at best and serves only for scouting and flying. In a way, this forces every druid to buy such enhancement if they wish to use Wild Shape more actively.
Second thing which you ignored is not being able to cast spells/use items or even talk without feats or items which will help you out. As every polymorph effect, gear melds with your body and it becomes inaccessible to you in any way until you polymorph back to your initial shape.
Because of that, paladins or fighters shouldn't feel any form of envy toward druid. They can hit higher AC with much lower gold cost.
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@Akerlof
Well don't get me wrong, but you are twisting the words now. Encumbrance is a factor and penalties for non-proficiency aren't clarified yet, but even J.J. mentioned that they should be present for balance reasons.
What you see in Wild enhancement is beyond me, but like I said, it's not omnipotent. Maybe the other classes do get ACP and Max Dex, but at that high level, those penalties are minor. By that time, they have their own ways to bypass them.
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If you don't, Wild Shape's ability is mediocre at best and serves only for scouting and flying.
There is no level at which a pouncing, plate armored velociraptor with dragonstyle is a bad thing.
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Now I will say the AC bonus is not going to keep up as easy with a fighter in full plate and shield who only puts into the bonus, but if it is a dex based fighter? That +3 bonus could easily get more ac than a single point worth. It just seems weird to allow that to work that way to me.
May be more of my problem is with the agile property, as it certainly is one at times. Why not add a new dump stat to start this whole equation with.
Really though it is more the fact that this combination of things makes this character have basically no weakness. When a character can just solo scenarios something is wrong, as this game is supposed to be a cooperative experience. If one build at a table could do everything, it makes others feel left out. I'm just ranting again at this point so time to end this post haha
Because of that, paladins or fighters shouldn't feel any form of envy toward druid. They can hit higher AC with much lower gold cost.Again, it's not about the armor class. Druids with Wild armor get full movement speed, no encumbrance, no armor check penalty, no max dex and no penalties for non-proficiency on top of the full armor bonus of the armor.
Wild Shape gives the druid the first two, but do you think it would be reasonable to give any other armor wearer the last three benefits for just a +3 bonus? Should a Ranger in adamantine full plate be just as stealthy as a Ranger in leather armor for only a +3 bonus?
I don't know if +3 is over- or undercosted for providing a Wild Shaped Druid with the full benefit of his armor. But, compared to everything I've seen regarding armor enchantments and class abilities, +3 is too low a cost to allow a character to ignore ACP, Max Dex and non-proficiency penalties.
+3 would be acceptable for those three benefits, especially since they are really only two benefits (granting the first also grants the third as a side effect). That's three pluses that could go toward AC or other useful armor abilities, and those three pluses get pretty damn expensive. I would totally allow purchasing +1 no-penalties-lol full plate for 17,650 gp versus a mere 2,650 gp for +1 full plate. The gap only gets wider as the enhancements increase.
Others would probably scream bloody murder, of course.
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As it stands it seems the only rules we have are the ones from the book, which are unclear and the James Jacobs quotes. It makes sense to me that given everything else I would use both of them and add a third caveat.
1. No penalties apply to a druid wearing armor with wild shape.
2. Wild Armor does not add the penalties except for ACP to attack roles if they are non-proficient in their use.
3. They are considered wearing armor but not of a specific weight (so anything that works with no armor stops working but abilities that can be used in light armor still function even if in medium or heavy armor and wild shaped. This includes wild armor.
Keep in mind the cost of +3 also requires at least a +1 meaning the minimum is 16000 plus cost of armor.
What do you all think?
It's as good an implementation as any.
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That... is a nice loophole he found.
Deleted my old post, because I just realized:
"STONEPLATE
Price 1,800 gp
Armor Bonus +9
This armor is crafted by dwarven stonesmiths from alchemically strengthened plates of basalt. Stoneplate is heavy and unwieldy, but offers incredible protection to its wearer. It is primarily used by dwarven druids who cannot wear metal armor."
Dwarves get all the cool stuff I swear >_>
Though, there still seems to be a contradiction. He's still not wearing Hide, Leather, or Padded armor; as prohibited by the Druid Armor rules.
"Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only those crafted from wood.
A druid who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter."
Does this contradiction still apply? The armor still isn't Wood or Wood w/Ironwood spell on it, nor is it Light or Medium armor or that of Padded, Leather, or Hide.
To me, the part about "It is primarily used by dwarven druids who cannot wear metal armor" seems to be fluff.
Padded, leather, and hide were the only standard armor types available in the CRB. That sentence is a consequence of the rule preceding it, not a rule in and of itself.
The rule is that druids can't wear metal armor. Stone plate, wooden armor, lamellar leather, lamellar horn, lamellar stone, silken ceremonial armor, and armor where the metal can be replaced by bone, which comprises studded leather, scale mail, breastplates, and wooden shields (although of course druids can already use wooden shields), all can be worn by druids without a problem, as well as armor made from dragonhide and ironwood.
I fail to see the problem.
Just take the Heavy Armor proficiency, and take stoneplate or dragonhide plate. Put a +Wild enhancement on it (not cheap).
The biggest problem of a Druid is AC. Their biggest expense is armor and Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Is the druid a powerful class? Sure. But, having to blow an additional feat and requiring a +3 enhancement seems reasonable, and typically not available to anyone until around level 7-10, depending on your campaign. Still, blowing the money on the armor means lack of coin for Amulet of Mighty Fists.
So just to sum this thread up, as I am currently playing a Monk/Druid who would just love to use this:
A Monk/Druid wearing Wild Stoneplate gains the Armor Bonus from his Stoneplate in addition to his Monk AC Bonus, but does not take any penalties in the form of Max DEX, ACPs, or proficiency penalties?
Correct?
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So just to sum this thread up, as I am currently playing a Monk/Druid who would just love to use this:
A Monk/Druid wearing Wild Stoneplate gains the Armor Bonus from his Stoneplate in addition to his Monk AC Bonus, but does not take any penalties in the form of Max DEX, ACPs, or proficiency penalties?
Correct?
This is what I have been led to believe, and I do recall seeing a FAQ on Druids and Monk AC bonus, stating that Druids while in their Wildshape still receive that bonus.
It's really just a matter of whether they're truly counted as wearing armor or not at this point, I guess.
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So Monk/Druids in wild shape get their monk ac bonus.
It is unclear whether a Monk/Druid in armor still does, even in wild shape.
It is also unclear whether a Monk/Druid in wild shape with wild armor would still continue to get their bonuses, this is the Sporge's question, what penalties apply to a druid when they wild shape while wearing armor and does this change with Wild Armor.
So it is not clear whether those bonuses would stack. Posts have been made and we are trying to get the answer but if you want something definitive you will have to wait.
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So Monk/Druids in wild shape get their monk ac bonus.
It is unclear whether a Monk/Druid in armor still does, even in wild shape.
It is also unclear whether a Monk/Druid in wild shape with wild armor would still continue to get their bonuses, this is the Sporge's question, what penalties apply to a druid when they wild shape while wearing armor and does this change with Wild Armor.
So it is not clear whether those bonuses would stack. Posts have been made and we are trying to get the answer but if you want something definitive you will have to wait.
I agree, it's definitely questionable, but...
Let's break things down and look at all the references; though I'm sure they already have, but I'm gonna do it again for my sake:
1.) So, we all understand Wild Shape and how it alters Beast Shape X. Normally using Beast Shape X would cause you to lose your Su/Ex abilities, but Wild Shape prevents this; At least that's what I've been led to believe. I can't actually find the straight up rules on that part, but that seems to be how everyone treats it. If someone could fill that in, it'd be greatly appreciated. Wild Shape also alters the duration and changes it from a Spell to a Supernatural Ability. Then we only gain the listed abilities under Beast Shape X depending on what Animal we choose and what it has available to it.
1.5.) Is this it?(While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.)
2.) So, in the General Polymorph Rules, let's look at one of the most important parts:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function."
3.) Then we look at the Wild enchantment, "Armor with this special ability usually appears to be made from magically hardened animal pelt. The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen."
#2 seems to be the main thing in question here. I can definitely see why, as it feels like a mixture of Fluff and Mechanics. I can't find anything really mechanically describing "Melding". This combination feels less common and I don't really see it too often. Usually I see the Fluff, then the Mechanics in a new paragraph/line following the Fluff.
My Interpretation:
I feel that when it states "all of your gear melds into your body", means it becomes a part of you in every way. I feel that it is very wise to look at this as both a believable fantasy and with some of that BF common sense. Your shield now is part of your bone structure and muscle in your arms. Your armor now becomes part of the bone structure, muscle, and skin for the rest of your body. If it's a natural part of your body, it shouldn't slow you down anymore. If we still had the penalties, combined with NO AC bonus anymore, that would be just plain awful. I would compare it to Wolverine, but that's a little different since he was a human pumped(infused?) up with adamantium. It's along the same lines as the concept though. He seems to move and function just fine(aggressively moreso) aside from when he's around Magneto.
If something requires activation, well it no longer exists as far as Wild Shape is concerned. If it's a static bonus, it should keep on keepin' on, much like a part of our body being infused with magic. It's almost like an augmented implant from Deus Ex.
The fact that a Wild Shaped Druid gets no bonus from the armor until they can obtain the fairly expensive Wild Armor enchantment, seems very fair. Most Druids typically go Str/Wis, and put hardly anything into Dex. Their starting AC is anywhere between 11 and 17 out of Wild Shape. once they Wild Shape into Beast Form II+, it actually gets worse as they lose their bonus to AC, -2 to Dex, and gain only a smidgen of Natural Armor. Really, they aren't that much different from that of a Fighter or Barbarian once they acquire Wild Armor. They can all potentially use the same Armor and end up with the same bonuses.
I did notice that on 2-3 occasions, it mentioned "The GM is the Final Arbiter" or "GM Discretion" in regards to the Polymorph rules. With that specifically be stated in the Rules section, I say it gives the GM all the power in the world to determine how it functions in his/her universe.
As far as Monk AC Bonus still functioning while your Armor is Melded via Wild Shape... it should still work. One is not wearing armor anymore, as it is a part of one's body. Just because there is an AC Bonus due to Wild Armor, doesn't mean it would effect the Monk AC. Mage Armor and Shield give Monks an AC Bonus, but it doesn't debilitate the Monk AC bonus(FoB or Speed too). It does state that it doesn't apply ACP, ASF, or Speed Reduction, but it is still Armor - just made out of "Force". Outside of Wild Shape is when someone would be penalized.
That's my piece! Now I try to forget about this thread, until someone from the Design team chimes in :D
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I gave a lot of thought about it. On one side, are you wearing armor, yes or no? Yes. Then Monk AC is in violation, special properties or not. But, because of wild shape meld feature, the armor works like Bracers of Armor or Mage Armor, albeit just more powerful. And since neither of those violates Monk AC bonus, it should stand to reason that while in wild shape, the Monk AC bonus applies.
Furthermore, like Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor, armor with +wild negates all Dex limitations and armor check penalties while in wild shape form. This is why I would strongly agree that Monk AC bonus applies. I suppose had +wild armor limited the Dex bonus and also maintained its armor check penalty while in wild shape form, then it would also stand to reason that it would limit Monk AC bonus.
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Now that I think about it - and I don't mean to sidetrack - What would a Druid's Touch AC be?
Let's say they are level 8, in Medium Air Elemental form(Wild Shape). Let's say they are Monk 4 and Druid 4 with Shaping Focus. They have some Lamellar Leather +1 with the Wild enchantment on it.
If the Armor is Melded and doesn't count as actually being there, but they still have an AC Bonus from it, would that bonus count as Touch or Flat-Footed?
My Interpretation:
Personally, I would assume it would be similar to Natural Armor in that sense, and that it would not apply to Touch AC. I am asking just to be sure though.
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To be honest the original poster was referring to one of my druids that is Dex based, uses and agile amulet of mighty fists and combines it with wild stoneplate armor. This gives him an AC at 7th at 32 before controlled rage, buff spells or fighting defensively. If he picked up a level of monk instead at 7th it would have been 35 based on wisdom and the dodge feat.
In regard to his concerns I traded out a feat to be proficient since the only semi-official response from James Jacobs mentions this requirement.j
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Now that I think about it - and I don't mean to sidetrack - What would a Druid's Touch AC be?
Let's say they are level 8, in Medium Air Elemental form(Wild Shape). Let's say they are Monk 4 and Druid 4 with Shaping Focus. They have some Lamellar Leather +1 with the Wild enchantment on it.
If the Armor is Melded and doesn't count as actually being there, but they still have an AC Bonus from it, would that bonus count as Touch or Flat-Footed?
My Interpretation:
Personally, I would assume it would be similar to Natural Armor in that sense, and that it would not apply to Touch AC. I am asking just to be sure though.
Similar to Mage Armor, touch AC isn't changed. It's not a deflection/dodge/dex bonus to AC.
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The way I plan on ruling it is you need proficiency or you take the penalties as if they existed. I would also still count the character as wearing armor for the monk ac bonus. Whether or not it is there on the outside or melded I think that it is still there in some form of bulk; just giving the benefit of the doubt for all other penalties.
Heck the proficiency needed can be seen as the ability to effectively meld the armor to your form.
In a home game I think I would keep all the penalties for armor and encumberence but for pfs using my first paragraph. Do expect table variation until stated officially.
The way I plan on ruling it is you need proficiency or you take the penalties as if they existed. I would also still count the character as wearing armor for the monk ac bonus. Whether or not it is there on the outside or melded I think that it is still there in some form of bulk; just giving the benefit of the doubt for all other penalties.
Heck the proficiency needed can be seen as the ability to effectively meld the armor to your form.
In a home game I think I would keep all the penalties for armor and encumberence but for pfs using my first paragraph. Do expect table variation until stated officially.
Well, you can do that if you wish as a DM, but the developers have said that their are neither encumbrance nor armor penalties for armor while in wildshape. So, if you wish to do something outside the developer comments, that's your right. But I think you owe it to people to let them know that's a specific house rule against developer comments.