Enlarge Person + Form of Dragon = ?

[ingenuus]

If player 1 casts form of the dragon on themselves and player 2 casts enlarge person on them (either before or after player 1 casts form), do these stack/interact at all? I would imagine not since that could prove to be a little bonkers, but I wasn't sure so I thought I would ask.

Thanks in advance!

[Nefreet]

Aren't they both Polymorph effects?

[Mojorat]

Enlarge person is not a polymorphic effect. However poly morphology ruled say you cannot be under a polymorphic effect and have Have another spell change your size.

[fretgod99]

Mojorat wrote:

Enlarge person is not a polymorphic effect. However poly morphology ruled say you cannot be under a polymorphic effect and have Have another spell change your size.

Yup.

Polymorph wrote:

In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

[ingenuus]

Good deal...didn't think so, but didn't know the reasoning behind why it wouldn't work.

Thanks!

[Rikkan]

You can still cast while in form of the dragon IIRC.

Mojorat wrote:

Enlarge person is not a polymorphic effect. However poly morphology ruled say you cannot be under a polymorphic effect and have Have another spell change your size.

No, only when under a polymorph spell, you can for example use enlarge person on a wild shaped druid.

[Googleshng]

Stacking size bonuses aside, once Form of Dragon has been cast, unless there is some errata I'm unaware of, until the effect ends, your type is dragon, not humanoid, so you are no longer a valid target for enlarge person in the first place.

[fretgod99]

Rikkan wrote:

You can still cast while in form of the dragon IIRC.

Mojorat wrote:

Enlarge person is not a polymorphic effect. However poly morphology ruled say you cannot be under a polymorphic effect and have Have another spell change your size.

No, only when under a polymorph spell, you can for example use enlarge person on a wild shaped druid.

I'd need to see a ruling on that. The Wild Shape entry says it functions just like the spell, which to me implies that it has all the same limitations.

Wild Shape wrote:

This ability functions like the beast shape I spell

[fretgod99]

Googleshng wrote:

Stacking size bonuses aside, once Form of Dragon has been cast, unless there is some errata I'm unaware of, until the effect ends, your type is dragon, not humanoid, so you are no longer a valid target for enlarge person in the first place.

Is that true? I thought that a polymorphed orc would still be subject to a Ranger's Favored Enemy bonuses, for instance.

[Rikkan]

Functions like a spell doesn't make it a spell. Would you say you can use dispel magic to remove Wild Shape?

Here the polymorph description:

Quote:

If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Note that they specifically call out wild shape as being different from a polymorph spell.

[Cornielius]

Core says wrote:

This ability functions like the beast shape I spell

Wild shape is a polymorph effect and does not allow an additional spell to increase your size.

However, the strong jaw spell does work, as it gives the effect of a larger natural attack, but does not change the size of the natural attack.

Also I was not aware that any polymorph effect changes the target's type.
Not even form of the dragon.
What am I missing?

edit: ninja'd
and yes, dispell magic could work on wildshape.

[Cornielius]

Nope, I was wrong.
Wildshape is a supernatural effect.

Core says wrote:

Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.

But it does follow the rules for a polymorph spell.

[Kazaan]

Basically, it works like this:

Polymorph spells have the effect of turning you into some other form; his is the "effect of a polymorph spell".

A Supernatural ability (like Wild Shape) utilizes the "effect" of a particular polymorph spell, even though it isn't actually that spell.

Thus, the general rule that says size-changing spells don't work when you are "under the effect of a polymorph spell" is triggered because, even though it wasn't caused by the actual Beast Shape spell, it is still the effect of the Beast Shape spell so no size changes allowed.

[Rikkan]

It is not the effect of the Beast Shape spell, it is the effect of wild shape, which functions like the beast shape spell. So you're not under the effect of a polymorph spell.

To quote it again:

Quote:

If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape),

a polymorph spell is not the same as a polymorph effect (such as wild shape), otherwise the word "or" wouldn't be there.

[Claxon]

A wildshaped druid cannot benefit from enlarge person.

While under polymoprh affects your creature type stays the same.

[Mojorat]

To be clear. when you are polymorphed your type does not change. a human polymorphed into a dragon is not hurt by dragon bane items.

As far as the difference between a Supernatural polymorph effect and a spell. all the polymorph effects in the game reference the polymorph spell entry. Trying to argur "its not a spell" is semantics. The game is telling you it has all the benefits and hindrances as the polymorph spells.

This means you also cant force a druid wildshaped into a dog into another form with another polymorph effect, just like a wizard under beastshape.

[Mechagamera]

If they ever make a kaiju bloodline sorcerer, I hope one of the class features is that you can benefit from enlarge person even when polymorphed.

[Rikkan]

Mojorat wrote:

As far as the difference between a Supernatural polymorph effect and a spell. all the polymorph effects in the game reference the polymorph spell entry. Trying to argur "its not a spell" is semantics.

It is not just semantics, the game specifically calls them out as being different effects.

This is the rules forum, the rules say what they say, not what you want them to say.

You're free to houserule them for your own game though.

[Majuba]

Rikkan wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

As far as the difference between a Supernatural polymorph effect and a spell. all the polymorph effects in the game reference the polymorph spell entry. Trying to argur "its not a spell" is semantics.

It is not just semantics, the game specifically calls them out as being different effects.

It's specifically calling them *in* as working the same. "Hey, don't forget this counts too!"

Rikkan wrote:

This is the rules forum, the rules say what they say, not what you want them to say.

This an absolutely laughable statement.

This is the Rules Forum, we use common sense here.

[Claxon]

Rikkan wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

As far as the difference between a Supernatural polymorph effect and a spell. all the polymorph effects in the game reference the polymorph spell entry. Trying to argur "its not a spell" is semantics.

It is not just semantics, the game specifically calls them out as being different effects.

This is the rules forum, the rules say what they say, not what you want them to say.

You're free to houserule them for your own game though.

You really couldn't be more wrong. The wording is there to remind you that everything that applies to polymorph applies to wildshape too.

[Kazaan]

The effect of Wild Shape is explicitly called out as being the same as the effect of Beast Shape I. Therefore, anything that applies to Beast Shape I (ie. no size-changing under a polymorph effect) applies equally to Wild Shape.

Now, that having been said, there are some situations where a Supernatural ability has odd results compared to the spell it spoofs. For example, the Growth domain's swift-action Enlarge Person has the effect of Enlarge Person which is to make the targeted creature increase by one size category with associated bonuses and penalties. But the targeting line, not the effect line of the Enlarge Person spell only lets it be cast upon a Humanoid creature. But Growth is only taking the Effect, nothing else, so the targeting line is inconsequential, thus Growth will enlarge you even if you're not Humanoid. But since the Polymorph + Size Change restriction is imposed on the effect and Wild Shape and Beast Shape share effects, the restriction applies equally to both.

[Googleshng]

Mojorat wrote:

To be clear. when you are polymorphed your type does not change. a human polymorphed into a dragon is not hurt by dragon bane items.

Mind citing the rules on that one? The only reference I can find one way or another in the polymorph subschool text is:

"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."

And if we look at, say, Beast Shape I, the very first sentence:

"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type."

Unless you're taking some weird convoluted approach that "assuming the form of something" and "changing into something" aren't the same thing, and therefore the general rules for the subschool don't actually apply to any of the existing spells within it, it seems pretty self-evident that changing something into a different type of creature does indeed change it's creature type.

Unless, again, there's errata to the contrary somewhere that I'm not seeing.

[Claxon]

Mind telling me where in the rules it says it changes your type?

It tells you that you take on the form of creatures or animal types, but the polymorph spells do a pretty thorough job of telling you exactly what changes and what you get. These never include creature type.

There isn't a rule saying your type doesn't change, because there was never a rule (in Pathfinder) saying that it did.

[Kazaan]

PRD wrote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

No where does it specify you gain the type of the creature. Essentially, the change is only skin-deep. Now, if the specific polymorph spell indicates your racial type or subtype change, that'd be one thing. But Polymorph spells, in general, only change your appearance and give you the creature's natural attack and natural armor (if any). Anything else needs to be stated explicitly.