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In the real world, some of the most effective infantry combat weapons of various eras would have been light weapons. Roman Legionaries used the Gladius (effectively a short sword) to great effect combined with shield and shield-wall type tactics.
Similarly, during the Dark ages Anglo-Saxon and Viking warriors used both Seaxes (short, machete like swords) and longer swords. The Seaxes were likely used in shield walls, where you wouldn't be able to swing a longer blade. Bernard Cornwell's Saxon stories (The Last Kingdom etc) give good descriptions of combat, making shield-wall combat seem more like a Rugby scrum or ruck than fencing.
Plus, knives are cool. To quote Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, "Guns for show, knives for a pro".
One important reason that hasn't been brought up yet is that of availability. I don't just mean price (daggers only cost 1 gp meaning almost everyone should have like 5-10 of them on their person at all times barring certain social situations) but also not everyone can use martial weapons. Caster often have a dagger just in case or if they need a tool for some reason.
For more martial classes like bard or rogue, they simply don't have the proficiency with weapons like the longsword or greatsword to really use them unless they spend a feat and they're starved for feats as it is. You could argue that rogues could spend a rogue talent instead but they have way better things on their list than a average of 2 more damage per swing. For both them and the bard, their primary damage comes from elsewhere. For rogues, it's sneak attack and for bards, it's through their music and their spells. So really martial weapon proficiency is a waste of a feat when you get down to it. In the end, the original question can be flipped. Why would they want to have a longsword given it's higher cost?
In the end, the original question can be flipped. Why would they want to have a longsword given it's higher cost?
Not necessarily answering the longsword part, but you want a one-handed weapon because being able to get 1.5 times strength and Power Attack eventually turns into a rather large bonus, even for the poor Rogue who wants to be able to do a bit more than tickle his enemy if he can't position for Sneak Attack. Even a one-handed simple weapon would suffice.
Unless you're Two Weapon Fighting(or are planning on getting Swallow Whole'd a lot) light weapons are meh. Shouldn't stop you from paying like 3 gold and having one though just for such a contingency.
Side note, Bards are proficient with longswords... and if you were ever to consider spending a feat for a weapon proficiency (besides Longbow), why settle for Martial? Exotic is the way to go; 1d8 18-20 crit or 1d8 19-20 x3 please.
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In the end, the original question can be flipped. Why would they want to have a longsword given it's higher cost?Not necessarily answering the longsword part, but you want a one-handed weapon because being able to get 1.5 times strength and Power Attack eventually turns into a rather large bonus, even for the poor Rogue who wants to be able to do a bit more than tickle his enemy if he can't position for Sneak Attack. Even a one-handed simple weapon would suffice.
Unless you're Two Weapon Fighting(or are planning on getting Swallow Whole'd a lot) light weapons are meh. Shouldn't stop you from paying like 3 gold and having one though just for such a contingency.
Side note, Bards are proficient with longswords... and if you were ever to consider spending a feat for a weapon proficiency (besides Longbow), why settle for Martial? Exotic is the way to go; 1d8 18-20 crit or 1d8 19-20 x3 please.
Morning Stars are one of my favorite weapons, and they are simple one handed d8 weapons. the crappy crit profile is terrible, but the fact that they are the only weapon that is B&P at the same time is outstanding. It really opened the door for some interesting enchantment combinations, and it also works with anything that requires a piercing weapon, like swashbuckler/duelist class features.
In the end, the original question can be flipped. Why would they want to have a longsword given it's higher cost?Not necessarily answering the longsword part, but you want a one-handed weapon because being able to get 1.5 times strength and Power Attack eventually turns into a rather large bonus, even for the poor Rogue who wants to be able to do a bit more than tickle his enemy if he can't position for Sneak Attack. Even a one-handed simple weapon would suffice.
Unless you're Two Weapon Fighting(or are planning on getting Swallow Whole'd a lot) light weapons are meh. Shouldn't stop you from paying like 3 gold and having one though just for such a contingency.
Side note, Bards are proficient with longswords... and if you were ever to consider spending a feat for a weapon proficiency (besides Longbow), why settle for Martial? Exotic is the way to go; 1d8 18-20 crit or 1d8 19-20 x3 please.
Didn't see the part about bards being proficient in longswords (haven't played one.) So you got me there.
Your point about power attack though I still contest. Most rogues or even bards don't have the str 13 necessary to qualify for power attack. Especially if they're halflings or some other small race.
Instead consider http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat. It's essentially the same thing but only requires weapon finesse as a prerequisite. This way you can do more damage with a dagger or short sword and actually be able to hit something 'cause you're to-hit will be based on Dex which rogues need anyway. Combine that with the agile weapon enchantment and you don't need strength at all (except for carrying capacity I guess.) Generally, something that makes you less MAD is better than something that makes you need an otherwise useless stat for your class.
Because it's not all about game mechanics
Because it's not all about game mechanics
Style over substance?
I just built an NPC Fighter I / Rogue I with Two-weapon fighting and weapon proficiency shortswords. With +1 shortswords, his bab is +0 for 2d6+5 (sneak attack and 18 str, his highest and only decent stat) twice at level two. Sometimes its good flavor. And sometimes its just more succinct. I could probably have a better weapon in his primary hand, sure, but that wouldn't match my daring rogue miniature. :b
I just built an NPC Fighter I / Rogue I with Two-weapon fighting and weapon proficiency shortswords. With +1 shortswords, his bab is +0 for 2d6+5 (sneak attack and 18 str, his highest and only decent stat) twice at level two. Sometimes its good flavor. And sometimes its just more succinct. I could probably have a better weapon in his primary hand, sure, but that wouldn't match my daring rogue miniature. :b
Why is his BAB +0? As a lvl 1 fighter he should get a BAB of +1.
You take huge minuses for dual weilding. With the Two Weapin Fighting feat, weapon focus on the shortswords, the use of a light weapon in your off-hand, the +1 shortswords, and the initial +1 BAB, the math comes out to +0/+0 if I counted correctly. It might actually +0/-1 now that I think about it.
Use light weapons if you ever want to be a warpriest. Seriously.
Daggers that are easily concealed and light, but can be whipped out for 2d8 damage? Yes please.
In all seriousness though, light weapons are better for diplomatic/political/role-play-heavy campaigns, where any weapon at all is terrifying. A longsword might be great for wading into melee, but a dagger is quicker to draw and hold at a noble's throat.
Ah I see then. You're BAB is still the same as it is your base. Your melee to-hit modifier is what you were saying. Semantics, really.
I think you're initial numbers were correct. With two-weapon fighting + light weapon, the penalties are -2/-2. +1 weapons bring it up to -1/-1. 1 BAB - 1 is 0.
I bought a spiked gauntlet once just in case I got grappled or swallowed whole. My advice is not to spend more than the minimum on it. I never got swallowed whole, and when I got grappled I figured it was escape or die, my d4 damage was not appealing. I can see some use but don't spend much if you aren't built around having one.
For me the reasons for a dagger are all flavor and history. In the middle ages and beyond everyone carried a dagger. It was a tool as much as a weapon. You ate with it (there were no forks) you worked with it and if necessary you fought with it. It is the ye-old version of the smart phone. No one left home without it.
Titan Mauler's Massive Weapon ability are most effective if you use a huge Wakizashi or Aklys, which are both light weapons. Class with 3/4 BAB progression can be highly benefit if they use light weapons with high crit range for two weapons fighting, basically you just try to crit instead of hit as you might still miss even if you rolled 19. Especially any dex based or int based characters who are melee but have not way to increase their attack bonus effectively. It is easier to try crit with 15 or 17-20/x2 with -2 to hit than to hit with 20/x3 with +2 to hit, because feats like critical focus and other traits will help you confirm the crit while your normal attack bonus are still in use. But light weapons are not as good for ranger, fighter, paladin and barbarian. Especially full fighter at level 20 as they can auto crit with their chosen weapon, in which case you want as much weapon damage and crit multiplier as much as possible. Same for barbarian with mighty swing.
The increased threat ranges don't actually help you land more attacks. Here's the relevant text:
Increased Threat Range
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.