Now, A fire giatn does (with power attack)
+18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) (19-20/x2)
By the way with the fighter I would totally would have taken point blank master.
All I've gotten is more skill points, but for what? It's not like the fighter has a big list of skills to use them on anyway.
Which is another problem. Why does the Fighter not have Perception? Why? Seriously, WHYYYYY?
What role do you want from your fighter?
Something, ANYTHING besides "I hit it with a stick". The Fighter as a class has literally no other options in battle. He might hit them with a stick at range, or a really long stick, or use a stick to knock people over, but that's all he does.
I've posted a number of things in the past, here's a short list:
Things I have, in the past, suggested for general changes:
-An overhaul of the skills system that delineates where a character has become "super-human". Every 5 ranks of Climb gives you an equivalent Climb speed (ditto Swim). Acrobatics DCs to high and long jump being reduced to more reasonable levels so people specced into it can make superhuman leaps (the Fighter jumps 30 feet in the air, just barely grabbing onto the castle wall, hauling himself over to fight...very cool, very useful). Things like that.
I have hope for this one since SKR seemed to like it.
-As a corollary to the above, change Skill Replacing Spells (Spider Climb, Invisibility, stuff like that) to have a greater benefit on people with skills ranks. Instead of Spider Climb granting a flat 20 ft. Climb speed, have it add on to the character's existing climb speed (10 ft. for people with less than 10 Climb ranks). Don't let Invisibility add +20 to the Stealth score of someone with no Stealth ranks. Casting Invisibility on the Rogue (or other Stealth specced character) should ALWAYS be a better option than just casting it on yourself.
-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.
-Eliminate (or reduce) large Feat chains. Whirlwind Attack's prereqs are f#~&ing ridiculous. I mean, come on.
-Eliminate entirely nonsensical Feat Taxes. Why do you need 13 Int to knock someone over (Trip)? It makes no damn sense that you need a PhD in kicking people in the nuts (Dirty Trick). So why do you need 13 Int and Combat Expertise?
These last three also help Fighter a ton.
Last one is tentative, and may not be stuff everyone will like.
-Give everyone some way to increase their narrative power in some manner. Let the Fighter have access to an army or something that can perform (non combat related) missions. Gathering supplies for the group, delivering ordered goods to the boonies (so you can, with a bit of wait, get custom items without visiting a town), things like that. Think the Organization rules from Way of the Wicked or the groups from Serpent's Skull. Let the Monk achieve ludicrous overland speeds, able to run from one end of the continent to another in less than a day. Let the Barbarian be the undisputed master of feats of pure strength. Sadly, the ones I suggested have since become Mythic abilities (Seven League Leap being one and that one that lets you Charge through walls and stuff), so that'll probably never be. =(
Things I have, in the past, suggested for Fighter:
-Unique, combat and non-combat related skill uses. Something along the lines of Snake Style's Sense Motive to AC (an anti-Feint, if you will). Perception or Sense Motive to analyze a target and assess his relative power level (useful both in and out of combat, makes him less reliant on people with more knowledge skills).
-Eliminate "Fighter only" Feats. Give the Fighter some extra use for a Feat like the Monk gets with stuff like Stunning/Elemental Fist, or lowered level requirement, etc. Loosens the Fighter's death grip on some interesting Feats, but give shim so much more in return.
-Weird one, and may not make much narrative sense, but...let the Fighter apply magic item properties to any item he has Weapon Training in. I'm not talking like Divine Bond or Arcane Pool, I'm saying like "I have a +3 Greatsword, and have Weapon Training in Heavy Blades and Bows. I may transfer the +3 to my Bow at-will, and back again". Essentially the Fighter is so amazingly trained or yadda yadda he acts as a conduit for martial prowess and any weapon he wields he is as good with as any other.
The rest of your post is such utter garbage I can't even be bothered to reply to it directly. Once the words "player entitlement" and "haters" are used you've given up any attempt to carry on a rational conversation.
The rest of your post is such utter garbage I can't even be bothered to reply to it directly. Once the words "player entitlement" and "haters" are used you've given up any attempt to carry on a rational conversation.
Whaaaat!? People decrying the fighter are doing so because they love the class and want to see it buffed!?!?!?!? crazy.
But I will appeal to literature. What is lacking about the martial master in a world of magic with magic gear? Which sort of martial characters in such a world from stories are unrepresented in the PF fighter?
Normally, I find the martial characters that do other stuff either:
1) exist in a word without magic
and/or
2) exist in a word without magic gear
Examples where the fighter fail to measure up would be appreciated*
*I'd like to note, that doing this with the rogue is painfully easy (least dangerous in dark alleyways unlike 99.9% of rogues in literature)
It is plain obviously that all those rogues had shadow strike dude.
It is plain obviously that all those rogues had shadow strike dude.
Oh good more feat taxes!
Now they just need to do things like:
1) avoid attacks
2) hit targets
3) be a threat
4) use poison
5) be a threat from range
among other things...
@Marthkus: Ferris Eris. Relatively low level (I'd say 6ish), very flexible, good at dealing with magic, pure mundane.
Here abilities said she was good at hitting things with her stick.
Possibly mythic impossible speed and ranks in acrobatics.
OR
She put ranks into acrobatics, grabbed fleet and nimble moves, and had a GM rule that as a fighter moving normally in heavy armor, fleet would still work normally.
Why did you get him a scroll? Shouldn't he have 1-2 pearls of power 3rd level?
Rogues make pretty solid NPCs, as our Way of the Wicked game showed yesterday. They have a number of 1/day abilities that are really good if you only show up once anyway.
Still got hosed by his low Fort though. Suffocation FTW!
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Honestly, the only thing that the fighter (or any other martial) really needs to do is kill the enemy. That's their job. You may want something more fancy than that but the monsters are often defeated by taking out the enemy's hit points. So it is pretty much DPR and AC. How that's accomplished varied from character to character and encounter to encounter.
But killing the enemy(I.E Combat) is much more complicated than just full-attacking. Unless you have a push-over DM who runs the monsters without utilizing tactics, the GP they have, the environment and so forth, the Fighter won't be as effective as any other martial.
How does the Fighter deal with different terrain? How does it deal with intelligent foes who know to keep you at a distance? How does it deal with surprises? How does it deal with hit and run tactics? How do you keep foes from retreating? How do you avoid unnecessary damage or mitigate it? How do you chip away at an enemies defenses when the odds are stacked against you?
The answer to the majority of these questions for the Fighter is he doesn't. Most of his fellow martials DO have an answer. I'll go through it with the Ranger.
Terrain? Woodland Stride and superior movement speed if he has Longstrider
Distance? Rangers make fantastic switch hitters.
Surprises? Rangers get perception as a Class Skill, have a Companion that can be an additional roll and can have a good Stealth check for scouting. Securing and preventing Surprises at the same time.
Hit and Run/Retreating foes? Entangle is a solid spell. Spike Growth hinders movement as well.
Unnecessary Damage and Mitigation? Rangers add another body to the party to distribute damage with.
Enemy Defenses? This is the only one the Ranger doesn't have an answer for.
Why did you get him a scroll? Shouldn't he have 1-2 pearls of power 3rd level?Can't cast 3rd level spells at level 10
You may want to look at the table again.
Honestly, the only thing that the fighter (or any other martial) really needs to do is kill the enemy. That's their job. You may want something more fancy than that but the monsters are often defeated by taking out the enemy's hit points. So it is pretty much DPR and AC. How that's accomplished varied from character to character and encounter to encounter.But killing the enemy(I.E Combat) is much more complicated than just full-attacking. Unless you have a push-over DM who runs the monsters without utilizing tactics, the GP they have, the environment and so forth, the Fighter won't be as effective as any other martial.
How does the Fighter deal with different terrain? How does it deal with intelligent foes who know to keep you at a distance? How does it deal with surprises? How does it deal with hit and run tactics? How do you keep foes from retreating? How do you avoid unnecessary damage or mitigate it? How do you chip away at an enemies defenses when the odds are stacked against you?
The answer to the majority of these questions for the Fighter is he doesn't. Most of his fellow martials DO have an answer. I'll go through it with the Ranger.
Terrain? Woodland Stride and superior movement speed if he has Longstrider
Distance? Rangers make fantastic switch hitters.
Surprises? Rangers get perception as a Class Skill, have a Companion that can be an additional roll and can have a good Stealth check for scouting. Securing and preventing Surprises at the same time.
Hit and Run/Retreating foes? Entangle is a solid spell. Spike Growth hinders movement as well.
Unnecessary Damage and Mitigation? Rangers add another body to the party to distribute damage with.
Enemy Defenses? This is the only one the Ranger doesn't have an answer for.
The fighter is less hampered by his armor as he levels. He is able to deal with difficult terrain by either using reach weapons, moving faster, using ranged weapons, taking feats that allow him to reduce the effectiveness of difficult terrain, choosing the right archetype, etc.
Fighters make excellent switch hitters as well. They've got more than enough feats and archetype combinations to pull it off as well as, or even better than, the ranger.
The fighter does more than "hit with stick" if you want him to. It's up to you to choose the options that make him more than that. The options are there. If you choose not to even acknowledge them, that's not the fault of the fighter. That's the fault of the player.
Dealing with intelligent foes is not a class feature. It's a player feature.
The fighter is allowed to put ranks into Perception. He's even allowed to take feats to improve it. He is also allowed to boost his Wisdom if he wants as he levels. He can ensure that he has a decent initiative as well. I fail to see how this is a problem. Remember that most of the fighter class skills don't need a high score to be effective. They are static DCs. He can do fine with minimal investment in his class skills for the most part.
You keep foes from retreating in a variety of ways. Each would be dependent on the foe. You can use a net. You can trip. You can grapple. You can step up. You can let them retreat and pull out your ranged weapon.
There are feats that can help reduce damage as well as heavier armors made of adamantine. I would have to double check, but if the fighter needs to he can fight defensively while using feats like the vital strike chain. 3 Ranks in Acrobatics and Combat Expertise could help boost his AC and avoid the damage. Of course, as with any foe he would have to make choices appropriate to the situation.
The fighter can use whatever means he has at hand to deal with the odds stacked against him. Maybe he can be played as a character who wants to live rather than as an idiot who will only stand in one place and not use the best option available at the time.
The ranger doesn't always add an animal companion. That's one option (and a very popular one). I have seen people choose the bonuses to companions because that was a better option for the campaign. Even then, I've seen animal companions get wasted in a single round by the enemy. Even when boosted by the druid controlling it. Stuff happens. The fighter doesn't need to bring a companion along. He can figure out how to deal with problems as they arise.
I get it. You don't like playing fighters. You want to play a fighting spell caster. That's awesome. Play one. Enjoy playing one. Plenty of people have figured out how to play an effective fighter. Some do it on their own. Some play in a group where everyone helps everyone else. I have never seen any class not be able to handle adventures. I have seen people choose classes not suitable for their style of play (I don't play divine casters or bards very well at all, for example). I have seen people do some amazing things that I would never have thought of with their characters. The problems aren't with a class. They are with a player trying to play the class as something it's not meant to be.
Honestly, the only thing that the fighter (or any other martial) really needs to do is kill the enemy. That's their job. You may want something more fancy than that but the monsters are often defeated by taking out the enemy's hit points. So it is pretty much DPR and AC. How that's accomplished varied from character to character and encounter to encounter.
Oh I fully agree that HP damage is a perfectly viable means of killing enemies. In fact, one of my favorite reasons to have martials in a party is because martials (all martials) have DPR, HP, and AC in spades. However, excelling at that is a thing all martials do.
You don't have to kill in fancy ways to be effective. However I do think Fighters suck at combat because combat is more than just hitting stuff. Just in the same way that I think combat is more than throwing spells around. When I'm playing a wizard, I don't pretend that everyone is going to fight me on my terms with the things I'm strongest against. I'm expecting people to exploit my AC, my fortitude and reflex, my low hit points, deny me line of effect, make targeting them a pain, etc.
I make the same assumptions as a martial. Combat is about way more than just hitting things. Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers. All are more capable of dealing with combat as a whole, more capable of adapting to various threats, more capable of exploiting various weaknesses, though literally every one of them like the Fighter gets their job done by putting a sword (or arrow) through the badguy's favorite organs.
Being able to deal HP damage does not make you good at combat. It makes you good at a single facet of combat. Because of this, I think Fighters suck at combat. Suck at dealing HP damage? No. Suck at combat? Definitely.
Dealing with intelligent foes is not a class feature. It's a player feature.
Don't get me wrong. Technical know-how is a really important thing in any field, including adventuring. But I wouldn't trust my car to an auto-mechanic with a sparse toolbox.
I get it. You don't like playing fighters. You want to play a fighting spell caster. That's awesome. Play one. Enjoy playing one. Plenty of people have figured out how to play an effective fighter. Some do it on their own. Some play in a group where everyone helps everyone else. I have never seen any class not be able to handle adventures. I have seen people choose classes not suitable for their style of play (I don't play divine casters or bards very well at all, for example). I have seen people do some amazing things that I would never have thought of with their characters. The problems aren't with a class. They are with a player trying to play the class as something it's not meant to be.
Y'know what my favorite archetype is for Rangers? Trapper. The one that dumps spells for trapfinding and utility traps. Would you like to know why? Because the kit for a completely mundane warrior is better that way than the Fighter's. I am completely up for the concept of a mundane warrior but the Fighter as a whole is lacking in comparison to other martials and the tools they bring to accomplish their job.
You cite loads of non-fighter specific methods of solving problems then holding them up to be why the Fighter is fine as is.
And thats just it. Everyone can do what you've listed. The Fighter has no niche. He doesn't adapt to situations moreso than others. He isn't versatile in play. Combat Maneuvers as a whole are pretty terrible without incredible investment in one or two maneuvers. Half the time their use is invalidated by say Flying creatures for trip or huge creatures for grapple. Both of those are fairly common. Step up only functions for 5 foot steps.
Frankly, I'm amused. Alone lets take a look at everything you've said a Fighter can do through feats. I'm not talking level 20 here.
Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps for difficult terrain
Quickdraw for all these weapons you have on hand(Ranged, Reach, Primary, Net)
Moving Faster(Fleet?)
Power Attack and Deadly Aim for switch hitting
Skill Focus(Perception) and Improved Initiative
Net Proficiency
Improved Trip, Improved Grapple
Step Up(Which only works for 5 ft steps and does nothing to keep enemies from withdrawing)
Combat Expertise
Vital Strike
14 feats. So a Fighter does all the things you listed by 14th level.
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A Fire Giant does 3d6+15 damageNow, A fire giatn does (with power attack)
+18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) (19-20/x2)
Um...
Now, A fire giatn does (with power attack)
+18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) (19-20/x2)
Why do people not read? T_T
EDIT: I'm serious. It's really beginning to upset me. I don't understand why people come to a forum where the only way of communication short of us all engaging in interpretive ACSII-art is to read what each other says. I swear, people aren't even trying. In my response to Marthkus I said cover SEVEN TIMES. Seven. Each time noting that not only did the kobolds both have cover but I also pointed out the mechanical rammifications of having cover (such as their increased AC and immunity to AoOs).What does he do? Ignores most of my post but responds to it like he didn't, and then looks slack-jawed when he can't explain why the kobolds have more than 17 AC vs the party's attacks, while crying "Barbar OP, Barbar OP" over and over again. My mind = blown.
I just don't get it. Why even bother if you're not actually going to exercise your ability to read.
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A Fire Giant does 3d6+15 damageNow, A fire giatn does (with power attack)
+18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) (19-20/x2)
Um...
Now, A fire giatn does (with power attack)
+18/+13/+8 (3d6+24) (19-20/x2)
Why do people not read? T_T
EDIT: I'm serious. It's really beginning to upset me. I don't understand why people come to a forum where the only way of communication short of us all engaging in interpretive ACSII-art is to read what each other says. I swear, people aren't even trying. In my response to Marthkus I said cover SEVEN TIMES. Seven. Each time noting that not only did the kobolds both have cover but I also pointed out the mechanical rammifications of having cover (such as their increased AC and immunity to AoOs).What does he do? Ignores most of my post but responds to it like he didn't, and then looks slack-jawed when he can't explain why the kobolds have more than 17 AC vs the party's attacks, while crying "Barbar OP, Barbar OP" over and over again. My mind = blown.
I just don't get it. Why even bother if you're not actually going to exercise your ability to read.
Maybe ,only maybe, people wouldn't zone out during the first sentences of your posts if you tone down your gobshite attitude by a bit.
Bwahahahahahaha!
He is the power-gaming number-crunching master, they only have one attitude. It is like a fixed alignment.
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Maybe ,only maybe, people wouldn't zone out during the first sentences of your posts if you tone down your gobshite attitude by a bit.
Jeez, doesn't that seem a little hypocritical?
He's justified being frustrated. It's irritating making a point only for the person you're talking to to just ignore it.
Ok, time to compare fighter man and ranger fellow at 10!
** spoiler omitted **...
Human Fighter 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection,+1 trait)
hp 94 (10d10+30)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +21/+21/+16 (1d8+18/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +1, bows +2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 30
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Improved Critical (longbow), Desperate Battler, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Traits indomitable faith, Defender Of Society
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Perception +10, Survival +8, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +1 mithral full plate, +3 adaptive composite longbow, masterwork longbow, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1,Gloves of Dueling 1,000 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +2 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
DPR=86.45
This is utilizing the Fighters class features to the fullest as you should when you compare it to the ranger.
PS: I haven't corrected the skills for the lessened armor check penalty because it doesn't matter to me.
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Which part of my attitude?
Okay, I'll probably post in a couple hours from now. Just letting you know that I've not forgotten you. ^_^
Hey Bob! I haven't seen you around in a while and honestly I was missing your posts. You've always been one of the best posters on the boards IMHO and I think of you often. Glad to see you around again. ^_^
Okay in response to Marthkus' questions earlier as to why I don't believe his statement that fighters wreck in dungeons. They are in no particular order.
...
These problems are compounded in well-made encounters and adventures where mixtures of challenges rear their proverbial heads at the same time.
Is it the part of my attitude where I respect the person I'm conversing with enough to not act like they are frothing haters rather than people who are legitimately interested in the game and its mechanics ("Oh fighter haters gonna hate", "gotta defend fighters from the loudmouths"), or take the time to discuss each detail with them so that we're on the same page?
Or is it just inappropriate to get irritated when people who are providing reasonable examples are having to re-iterate everything they've said because of willful illiteracy? Hm? How 'bout it?
'Cause y'know...good. I hope my attitude is the "gobshitiest" attitude there is, because if my attitude is the worst on these boards then the board is a pretty awesome place. A place where the absolute worst attitude is "God, why don't people at least try to communicate and deal with things with honest intentions and reason". Man, that's a place that sounds great for discussing things.
Maybe ,only maybe, people wouldn't zone out during the first sentences of your posts if you tone down your gobshite attitude by a bit.Jeez, doesn't that seem a little hypocritical?
He's justified being frustrated. It's irritating making a point only for the person you're talking to to just ignore it.
Thanks Aratrok. ^_^
Bwahahahahahaha!
He is the power-gaming number-crunching master, they only have one attitude. It is like a fixed alignment.
Reason Subtype
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the reason-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have lawful good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a reasoned alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the reason subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are reason-aligned.Ecology
Their skills and abilities make them excellent advisors and efficient agents for well built armies. They often carry long, flowing scrolls upon which are writ tips and statistics obtained from the laws of the cosmos. A reason deva's scrolls frequently contain hints of useful information and mechanical insights yet to come, and as such the devas are willing to share of the contents of these scrolls and let none, not even other reason devas, misunderstand them.
|
Important note on the Ranger/Fighter comparison:
The Ranger is really not making the most out of his animal companion. A Feat into Boon Companion is a must, and (on a cheetah) an Agile AoMF is a great use of 5k (if you focus a bit more on Dex than Str, anyway).
Both are much better investments than just about anything else in terms of DPR, and Boon Companion at least is pretty intuitively obvious on Rangers.
Yeah something like Boon Companion should have been in the CRB.
|
|
In fact, here's the rebuilt version. I suck at actual DPR calculations (I can eyeball rough numbers, but performing detailed calculations annoys me), someone want to do it for me?
Human Ranger 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 20, flat-footed 17 (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 84 (10d10+20)
Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +11
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork longsword +14/+9 (1d8+3/19-20)
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +15/+15/+10 (1d8+11/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (magical beasts +2, monstrous humanoids +6, undead +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +9):
3rd—
2nd—barkskin, stone call
1st—gravity bow, longstrider, resist energy
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 29
Feats Boon Companion, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Endurance, Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14, Climb +6, Handle Animal +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +6, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perception +23, Spellcraft +13, Stealth +14, Survival +10 (+15 to track), Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ combat styles (crossbow), favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (hunter's bond [animal companion]), swift tracker, track, wild empathy +10, woodland stride
Combat Gear scroll of instant enemy (5); Other Gear mithral kikko armor, +3 adaptive composite longbow, masterwork longsword, amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of the falcon, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, 950 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Magical Beasts +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Magical Beasts).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Scroll of instant enemy (5) Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +10 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Meow meow
Cheetah
N Medium animal
Init +5; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 22 (+6 Dex, +7 natural, +5 Armor)
hp 67 (+27)
Fort +8, Ref +13, Will +6 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft., sprint
Melee bite +13 (1d6+7) and
2 claws +13 (1d3+7)
or power attack bite +11 (1d6+11) and
2 power attack claws +13 (1d3+11)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 24, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 27 (31 vs. trip)
Feats Iron Will, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Eldritch Claws, Power Attack, Multiattack,
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+19 jump), Perception +10, Stealth +11 (+15 in Tall Grass), Survival +5; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in Tall Grass
SQ devotion
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Sprint (1/hour) (Ex) Can move ten times normal speed (500 feet) when you make a charge.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
Equipment: Mithral Chain Shirt Barding +1, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists,
If you think Bracers of the Falcon are cheesy...well, give 'em to the fighter, too. I doubt it'll change anything.
Bwahahahahahaha!
He is the power-gaming number-crunching master, they only have one attitude. It is like a fixed alignment.
Reason Subtype
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the reason-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have lawful good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a reasoned alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the reason subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are reason-aligned.Ecology
Their skills and abilities make them excellent advisors and efficient agents for well built armies. They often carry long, flowing scrolls upon which are writ tips and statistics obtained from the laws of the cosmos. A reason deva's scrolls frequently contain hints of useful information and mechanical insights yet to come, and as such the devas are willing to share of the contents of these scrolls and let none, not even other reason devas, misunderstand them.
Reason subtype? Ha! Don't blow your own horn too hard.
Try the Number-crunching Dullard Zombie subtype.
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Bwahahahahahaha!
He is the power-gaming number-crunching master, they only have one attitude. It is like a fixed alignment.
Reason Subtype
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the reason-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have lawful good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a reasoned alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the reason subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are reason-aligned.Ecology
Their skills and abilities make them excellent advisors and efficient agents for well built armies. They often carry long, flowing scrolls upon which are writ tips and statistics obtained from the laws of the cosmos. A reason deva's scrolls frequently contain hints of useful information and mechanical insights yet to come, and as such the devas are willing to share of the contents of these scrolls and let none, not even other reason devas, misunderstand them.Reason subtype? Ha! Don't blow your own horn too hard.
Try the Number-crunching Dullard Zombie subtype.
Butt hurt troll is butt hurt
...
Well if you want Boon Companion you have to actually drop a feat. You have one to many.
Ranger DPR=37.585
Cheetah DPR=16.59
Total = 54.175
Doesn't amount to much and thats my point. Rangers not fighting their FE's are crappy.Thats the balancing factor.
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...Well if you want Boon Companion you have to actually drop a feat. You have one to many.
Nope, he's got three from combat style, 5 from level, 1 from Human, and Endurance from Ranger. He's solid.
He's based on CWheezy's build and dropped Improved Critical for it.
Ranger DPR=37.585
Cheetah DPR=16.59Total = 54.175
Doesn't amount to much and thats my point. Rangers not fighting their FE's are crappy.Thats the balancing factor.
True to some degree...but his DPR goes up somewhat with Gravity Bow and vastly against his Favored Enemies, and he can make anything his Favored Enemy in a pinch.
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-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.
Why? What are you really missing out on? What do you need these for?
Like it or not, player entitlement is a thing, and this just reeks of it. You want more things for every character, for no reason other than you don't like playing with less things it seems.
It would be different if the game actually put requirements on characters that necessitated you max one skill on every character, but it doesn't. Perception was never a class skill for them before, when all you did was Spot and Listen for things. Sure, everyone likes to max perception, but that comes from a metagame decision not a role playing one.
You want a fighter who has a role attached to him and baked into the mechanics? There are archetypes for that. But that's not good enough for anyone in this thread either. You are literally refusing to be pleased even though you have the ability to achieve the things you want with the materials printed.
But killing the enemy(I.E Combat) is much more complicated than just full-attacking. Unless you have a push-over DM who runs the monsters without utilizing tactics, the GP they have, the environment and so forth, the Fighter won't be as effective as any other martial.How does the Fighter deal with different terrain? How does it deal with intelligent foes who know to keep you at a distance? How does it deal with surprises? How does it deal with hit and run tactics? How do you keep foes from retreating? How do you avoid unnecessary damage or mitigate it? How do you chip away at an enemies defenses when the odds are stacked against you?
The answer to the majority of these questions for the Fighter is he doesn't. Most of his fellow martials DO have an answer. I'll go through it with the Ranger.
Terrain? Woodland Stride and superior movement speed if he has Longstrider
Distance? Rangers make fantastic switch hitters.
Surprises? Rangers get perception as a Class Skill, have a Companion that can be an additional roll and can have a good Stealth check for scouting. Securing and preventing Surprises at the same time.
Hit and Run/Retreating foes? Entangle is a solid spell. Spike Growth hinders movement as well.
Unnecessary Damage and Mitigation? Rangers add another body to the party to distribute damage with.
Enemy Defenses? This is the only one the Ranger doesn't have an answer for.
1) Woodland stride and longstrider are class features, but without mithral the fighter woudl be moving faster most of the time,because mithral is not a class feature.
2) Fighter also make fantastic switch hitter, even more, they can just be arcehr tank and remove the need of swict hitting.
3) The ranger is just better here.
4) Bob already give options for the fighter.
5) A pet that also tend to die relatively easily unless you spend a good portion of WBL on it.
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-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.Why? What are you really missing out on? What do you need these for?
Like it or not, player entitlement is a thing, and this just reeks of it. You want more things for every character, for no reason other than you don't like playing with less things it seems.
It would be different if the game actually put requirements on characters that necessitated you max one skill on every character, but it doesn't. Perception was never a class skill for them before, when all you did was Spot and Listen for things. Sure, everyone likes to max perception, but that comes from a metagame decision not a role playing one.
You want a fighter who has a role attached to him and baked into the mechanics? There are archetypes for that. But that's not good enough for anyone in this thread either. You are literally refusing to be pleased even though you have the ability to achieve the things you want with the materials printed.
Hear , Hear
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-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.Why? What are you really missing out on? What do you need these for?
yeah, what is the point of playing the game out of combat? just use your smartphone until combat beggins.
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yeah, was the point of playing the game out of combat? just use your smartphone until combat beggins.-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.Why? What are you really missing out on? What do you need these for?
Playing the game out of cambat =/= requires skill points.
Playing the game out of cambat =/= requires skill points.yeah, was the point of playing the game out of combat? just use your smartphone until combat beggins.-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.Why? What are you really missing out on? What do you need these for?
Until the DM ask for a roll.
...Remember that a Ranger's Animal Companion shares his Favored bonuses and Instant Enemy treats the target as your Favored Enemy "for all purposes". Instant Enemy should be boosting the cat's DPR as well.
FAvored enemy is a personal spell that only affect the ranger.
Lol you know what I find funny? The contradiction between the argument against giving the fighter more skill points and the argument for rogues that skills are still useful. xD.
"You don't need skills to play out of combat"
"the Rogue needs his skill points to do things out of combat"
Funny...
For real, that's where this thread has gone just to keep the hate on fighters?The constant accusations of fighter hate are at this point immensely tiresome (and strike me as pretty disrespectful given just how many times it has been explained by many of the posters here that this is not their motivation).
(Including directly the poster you are replying to).
It would improve the experience of reading and participating in the thread for me at least if we could call it quits with this.
Subsequently
fighter haters
fighter haters
I forgot to say please, for which I apologize. Please?