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This is the fallacy. You assume that if one does not back up the claim, then that claim is false or that the person making it concedes it. Which is not logical and does not follow.
I don't think you understand what I am saying. Or what you are saying for that matter.
1) I never assumed that your claim was false because you did not back it up.
2) I never assumed that you had conceded your point because you did not back it up, I only asked you if you did.
It would appear that you do not concede, which is your right. If you do not concede your point, then you must, logically, back your point up with evidence to support it if you wish to further this conversation in any useful direction. To continue...
Premise: "Fighters wreck dungeon combat"
Apply P = P
Therefore: "Fighters wreck dungeon combat"A valid argument. What I am asking for is a counter example that shows that that argument is not sound. Or better know as a contradiction proof. Assume a premise, draw a contradiction, therefore premise is false.
Simply asserting that Premise = Premise is not a valid argument. As I said before that is akin to a tautology. Perhaps you don't know what that word means. You cannot define a thing by its being that thing. That is in no way a useful definition to persons that don't already know what that thing is, and that's what a tautology is. In the same vein, you cannot prove a thing to be true by saying that it is true. You cannot make a hypothesis and expect it to be accepted if you do not provide evidence to show that it is more than a hypothesis.
You seem to be under the faulty assumption that in order to prove your point others must attempt to prove you wrong. This is not the case. I haven't seen anyone make the statement, "Fighters do not wreck at dungeon combat," at least none so openly as you who continue to state that, indeed, "Fighters wreck dungeons all the time." It is up to you, and only you, to provide examples that show us why you think that is the case.
Wait, there are people dumb enough NOT to have a ranged attack option on every character asap? Maybe thats why fighters get a bad rap, when in fact operator error is the culprit!And if they both hit (which can be difficult on the second shot, as fighters tend to be strength-focused, as has been the basis of every other hypothetical in this thread today), they do 18 damage per two turns on average, compared to the dragon's 14 damage, which does not even care about AC. Doable, but difficult. For the 18/14/14/10/10/10 fighter presented earlier, the second hit is only hitting half the time, so cut that 18 damage to 13 (on average), and the dragon is outpacing him. And this assumes that the fighter has a bow on him; in a large amount of cases, greatsword fighters who have chose feats to improve their greatswords won't bother with other weapons (though I think they probably should, for pretty much precisely this reason).Now, what in the fighter's class abilities helps it avoid being beaten be having acid breathed at it every 1d4 rounds by something flying just out of reach?The ability to shoot 2 arrows a round in return?
All you really need to deal reasonable damage with a greatsword on a Fighter is Power Attack. It's completely reasonable to pick up a few Bow feats. I mucked around and built a switch-hitter Fighter (Bow feats: Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim; average WBL; 20 point buy), and put him up against a Young Black Dragon using the tactics you described (fly around, using Breath Attack).
His average damage is ~15 per breath, which he can use every ~2.5 rounds. Average 6 damage per round. My average damage per round with a bow was ~40 (with no buffs). This is not really a contest.
EDIT: FWIW, I'm all in favor of giving a fighter a stronger Will save progression and 4+int skill points per level. I don't feel like it changes the flavor of the class at all, and it helps shore up two of the most glaring mechanical issues the fighter has. But Fighters who (A) Don't have ranged weapons, (B) don't take Iron Will, (C) don't get a Cloak of Resistance ... well, they're kind of like a Wizard who doesn't have any defensive spells or abilities -- not long for this world.
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OR he can just smash the wall down with that hardness bypassing weapon.
It's worth pointing out that a typical hewn stone wall has over 500 hit points per section. Adamantine isn't really going to help you get through in a combat-useful time frame, you will need magic for that even if the DM gives you a bit of a break on the hit points due to murder holes.
It's well known that I think the fighter does just fine as-is. That being said, I would accept a few changes to the class that I think would improve it. Some of these may be more powerful than I at first think so if you see anything that is too much or too little, I'm open to suggestions.
1) 4 Skill points. I think all classes should have 4 skill points at a minimum. The fighter isn't the only one who suffers from this.
2) I would change the hit points to be 1d6+4. (I would also change other classes that get 1d10 to 1d6+4. I would change the classes that get 1d12 to be 1d6+6 and those that get 1d8 to be 1d6+2. I would leave the 1d6 alone.)
3) I would give the fighter a few options for class skills. I would keep their list as-is but allow them to choose two more from: Acrobatics, Bluff, Heal, any Knowledge skill against monsters, Perception, and Stealth.
4) The attribute prerequisites for combat feats are 2 points lower for the fighter. Power Attack would be Strength 11, Two-Weapon Fighting would be Dexterity 13, etc.
5) Change Bravery.
5a) Level 2: Against fear effects, treat Will saves as good saves.
5b) Level 6: Can add Constitution modifier instead of Wisdom to Will saves.
5c) Level 10: Add Constitution bonus and Wisdom modifier to Will saves.
5d) Level 14: When fighting creatures with a higher CR or EL at least 1 higher than his level, he gains a morale bonus equal to the difference in level to hit and damage and saves. Note that this will drop as the enemies drop but it can increase if the party starts losing members.
5e) Level 18: Shows no fear, can add his Charisma bonus to his Will saves.
6) Every point of Armor training grants him DR 1/- that stacks with other damage reduction of X/-.
7) Weapon Training: All weapon specific feats now apply to all weapons in the same group. For example, a fighter with Improved Critical (longsword) now has Improved Critical (bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword).
I think this gives the fighter more utility in and out of combat.
Let’s give the fighter the elite array of (no racial or level adjustments):
Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 8
He suffers fewer penalties to Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Stealth, and Swim due to his armor training. He is likely to do fine with Climb and Swim due to Strength being a prime stat. By putting just a few extra points into Dexterity will help with Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Stealth. Since he probably wants a boost to his Will save, he can see a small boost to Heal, Profession, and Survival. Charisma is usually a dump stat but nothing says it has to be.
The fighter can use the following skills freely either because they are class skills or because they can be used untrained. Also keep in mind that he doesn't have to be good at all or even many of them. Generally only one character needs to be successful for the entire party to succeed. If he wants to help, he needs to have a +9 in a particular skill so he can Aid Another.
Acrobatic DCs are static for the fighter since he probably will want medium or heavy armor. You can’t use Acrobatics to move past creatures if you are wearing anything heavier than light armor. So with the Dex of 12, he has a +1 (before the ACP, which gets reduced as he levels) and he can probably Take 10 or even 20 on some of the checks. That means that he can easily achieve most of the checks. Just taking Acrobatics, Skill Focus, or making it a class skill is easily accomplished.
Appraise is something that he probably wants to avoid unless he puts some points into it, takes some feats, and makes it a class skill. The DC 20 as a base is challenging. It’s rare for most people to put points into this so it’s not something that most characters will be good at. Even the wizard with a 30 Intelligence would still have to roll a 10 to successfully appraise most items and he would still have a 50% chance of screwing it up pretty bad if he was wrong.
Bluff can be dealt with by putting ranks in the skill, taking feats, and making it a class skill. Some archetypes allow for this. You can also use Cosmopolitan or traits. It’s not really something most fighters worry about anyway so it really doesn’t matter most of the time to the fighter. The good news is that any character who bluffs at the right time can get up to +20 to the check. Even with the -1 penalty this fighter would have that’s still going to be almost a given for success, with no ranks.
Climb has static DCs. He can get by on Strength and gear alone if necessary most of the time. Just using pitons in a climbing corner on a perfectly smooth, flat vertical surface can turn an impossible DC to a DC 15. He can then lower a rope for the party making their DCs only a 5. This would save on spell resources for many characters.
Crafting is relatively easy as well. It’s a DC 10+AC bonus for armor and it’s a 15 for marital weapons. Even with his Intelligence of 10, all he needs is masterwork tool’s and two apprentices (he can hire them) and he can Take 10 on making the weapons. Full Plate would be only a DC 19. That’s masterwork tools and three apprentices also. All he would need is another +1 to make those items masterwork.
Diplomacy isn’t nearly as hard as people think it is. Consider that most NPCs will actually be Indifferent to the fighter. That sets the DC at 15+Cha modifier. Let’s put the Charisma at 15 for the NPC (elite array). DC 17 if you want to change the attitude to Friendly. If you want to be able to pull it off, all you need to do is take a couple feats and make it a class skill (there are two ways to do that). So if you take a trait and skill focus and add a single rank you are at +8 at level 1 (Taking 10 will give you an 18). It’s even easier if they start as Friendly. Unfriendly and Hostile creatures are harder, but still not out of reach. You just have to roll (you’ll need a 14 and a 19 respectively, so it’s still possible). Now you can ask for lengthy or complicated aid by Taking 10. You can also (without hardly any effort at all) gather information. Most information is DC 10 and goes up to 20 for more unusual information. Yeah, it can go higher too but that’s probably not something the fighter is overly worried about and if he is, he can improve his skill.
Disguise isn’t really all that hard either so long as you just want to pass yourself off as a generic “other.” So if the fighter wants to pass himself off as a generic cleric passing through the gates, he would be able to do so with a +4 to the check. Sure, the guard might notice but then again that’s assuming that he has any reason to even suspect anything unusual. Holy symbols are cheap enough and it’s relatively easy to get one for a god that favors your weapon most of the time. Anything beyond that, you probably want to invest in this skill. Most characters don’t really invest in this skill anyway. Yeah, someone is going to tell me all about their character with a high bonus to Disguise but that just talks about the outlier and not the norm.
Escape Artist is probably beyond most fighters’ skills unless they invest heavily. Fortunately they can simply try to break the bonds instead. Instead of escaping from being tied up with rope (DC 20+CMB of the person tying the rope) he can try to get that DC 23 to break free. Of course with his 15 Strength, he can’t do that without help (even adding +2 to Strength from race will allow him to Take 20 and succeed). Chain bonds would be a DC 26 to break. Manacles would be an Escape Artist check of DC 30 (masterwork are DC 35, but the break DC is sill 26). That’s going to be tougher but getting creative and even getting help from party members can give a total of +6 with ease. This would save on party resources since no spells would have to be used. And of course grapples are CMD vs CMB, which the fighter can deal with fairly well. I also don’t see many people put ranks into Escape Artist.
Most fighters don’t need to put ranks into Fly. There are some that might due to race but they would also have it as a class skill and they can start with up to a +16 (+20 with a single rank) depending on circumstances. Most will have a +0 (+4 with a single rank). The fighter, along with most barbarians, bards, clerics, monks, paladins, rangers, cavaliers, inquisitor, oracles, gunslingers, ninja, and samurai don’t have reliable means of flight as class abilities. (I only looked at the CRB and the APG for spells). None of them have Fly as a class skill.
Handle Animal is a class skill for the fighter and certainly one that they can make good use of even with a penalty to Charisma.
Heal is something that can certainly help reduce the need for magic if you have enough time or are in the field needing to deal with poisons. It’s not hard to get a +5 to this skill at level 1. If he really wanted to be good at healing, he can use a healer’s kit (+2), make it a class skill (using a trait would be +4), and with the +1 he starts with he could have a +7 to the check at level 1. Grabbing the Skill Focus feat brings this to +10 meaning that he can Take 10 to treat deadly wounds with 100% chance of success at level 1. By level 5, he could add his Wisdom modifier to the amount that he heals. Not a lot of investment to pull it off. He can also still provide long term care, healing 2 hit points per level for 8 hours of rest. So at level 5, he is able to heal 16 points of damage to 6 characters in a single night. Sure, magic is faster and better but he can help save on resources with only minor investment.
Intimidate is something that he should have no problem with if he invests in it. It even can substitute for Diplomacy for a short period of time if necessary. It has the added benefit of being useful in combat.
Knowledge checks can be used untrained for any DC of 10 or less and he can Take 10 on them, automatically succeeding. Some things he can do automatically: Identify creature type with known abilities for that type (undead, plant, monstrous humanoid, etc.); identify mineral, stone, or metal (useful for crafting); identify dangerous construction; identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent; Know recent or historically significant event; Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations; Identify a common plant or animal; Know current rulers and their symbols; Know the names of the planes; Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy. Since Dungeoneering and Engineering are class skills, with a two ranks in each of them he can determine slope (not just that it’s sloped but the grade); determine a structure's style or age (which can be helpful for finding certain people or places). By level 7, he can determine depth underground and determine a structure's weakness. He can do all of that by Taking 10. He also has a decent chance of identifying aberrations and oozes.
Profession is another one that is often overlooked. By putting 1 rank into any of them, he’s answering Complex questions at level 1 and making 15 gold per week when not adventuring, per Profession skill. It’s not quick money but if there is some downtime while the wizard is making some magic items, he can earn some quick cash for supplies or even to craft some of his own stuff.
Ride is rather self explanatory. With only 1 rank, at level 1 he can guide his mount with his knees and stay in the saddle with no effort at all. It’s only a DC 10 to fight with a combat trained mount. By level 5 it’s a given. He can use his mount as cover easily as well. Grabbing Skill Focus means that he’s doing this by 7 without any problems at all. He can also soft fall, leap, and spur his mount with no problems at level 7. By level 10 he’s controlling the mount in battle with no problems and he can fast mount or dismount with no problems. He can grab a feat to pull it off two levels earlier and a trait to pull it off an additional level sooner. That means that he can, theoretically, hit that DC 20 by level 9 (9 ranks + 3 Class Skill +3 Skill Focus +2 Animal Affinity +1 Trait +1 Dex = +19). It’s also a prerequisite for several feats so it’s almost a necessity for mounted characters.
Sense Motive is one not taken by many characters either. His biggest worry most of the time is feinting in combat. He gets to use 10 + BAB + Wisdom without any ranks at all. There’s not a lot else he can do without actually investing in the skill.
Stealth is not generally one associates with the fighter but it can be made to work. It would take some investing but he can pull it off. Other classes are probably better suited due to the ACP but the fighter can reduce that over time.
Survival is a simple skill to get a lot of benefit out of. A single rank will give him +5. That allows him to feed and water up to 2 other people by Taking 10 while adventuring and he will always know where true north is. At level 2, he can now take care of food and water for a standard adventuring party of 4 by Taking 10. No resources needed. The party can’t get lost and can easily avoid natural hazards. He can also predict tomorrow’s weather. The more he invests, the further out he can predict the weather and the more people he can help with Fortitude saves, food and water, and even tracking.
Finally we have Swim. This is easy enough for the fighter. Scale mail and a heavy shield give him a -6. 1 rank sets this at -1. He still has a 50% chance to succeed at swimming in calm water. By either wearing hide armor or using a smaller shield, he can Take 10 on that check with 100% chance of success (or he can strap his shield on his back instead of using it to get rid of the -2 penalty). By level 3, he can have both of those being masterwork. This would mean that the shield provides no penalty and the armor provides a -2. So he would have a +6 to his check and can now Take 10 in rough water with 100% chance of success. By level 7, with masterwork heavy steel shield and full plate and max ranks, he’s at a 50% chance of success at swimming in stormy water. Skill focus and Athletics would bring that to 75% chance of success. At level 10, he would be at 100% chance to swim in full plate with a heavy steel shield in stormy water. I think that’s pretty good for not needing any magic at all.
The fighter, like any other character, has plenty that can be done out of combat. No, he can’t do all of those things but he can do enough of them to be useful. The problem is more of the player than the class. Too often people think in terms of class rather than character. You should take the class(es), races, and archetypes that match what you want to accomplish rather than focusing on just one class.
Here’s an example fighter with in and out of combat ability. He has no magic items, still needs to choose a race, needs two more languages, needs to choose his two attribute bonuses (probably Strength and Dexterity), and still needs one more feat (by increasing Dexterity he can take Deadly Aim). Also note that it’s not a build I would play. I would focus less on skills and more on the fun combat feats. I would also probably take an archetype.
No Race Fighter 10
Medium
Init +3; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +6 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee masterwork longsword +13/+8 (1d8+12/19-20)
Ranged masterwork composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+5/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +2, bows +1)
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Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Athletic, Cosmopolitan, Iron Will, Persuasive, Power Attack, Self-sufficient, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Traits bastard, reactionary
Skills Climb +9, Craft (armor) +6, Craft (bows) +6, Craft (weapons) +6, Diplomacy +8, Handle Animal +5, Heal +10, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Profession (engineer) +5, Profession (soldier) +5, Sense Motive +2, Survival +10, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Combat Gear healer's kit; Other Gear masterwork full plate, masterwork heavy steel shield, masterwork composite longbow, masterwork longsword, masterwork artisan's tools, masterwork artisan's tools, masterwork artisan's tools, climber's kit, training harness, 150 gp
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Healer's kit - 0/10
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
What can I do?
Against a CR 10:
Its primary ability has a DC of 19. That gives me a 55% chance for Fortitude, 25% chance for Reflex, and 35% for Will saves. Its secondary DC is a 13. That’s 85% chance for Fortitude, 60% for Reflex, and 70% for Will saves. Again, remember I have no gear or party members to help out and I didn’t include the +3 for fear.
Skills
Craft Armor/Bows/Weapons +6: By having two apprentices using Aid Another, he can craft his masterwork items for 1/3 the cost. Party resources spent: zero.
Diplomacy +8: Can Take 10 on anyone with Cha 8 or lower and Unfriendly to make him Indifferent. Can Take 10 on anyone Cha 16 or lower and Indifferent to shift him to Friendly. Take 10 on anyone 26 or lower to shift from Friendly to Helpful. I can still ask favors and if I shift the attitude, I improve my chances. Imagine that I want to ask a Solar to do something that could result in punishment. I could do it by rolling a 7 or better (or simply by Taking 10). I could still ask it to give some simple advice or directions with that same result. The DC would be 15 (+15 for aid that could result in punishment, +5 for an additional request -5 for simple advice). If I wanted to be daring, I could ask it to give some simple aid (mass heal spell?) as well for another +5 to the DC but now I have to roll a 12 or better and that’s a bit of a risk unless someone wants to Aid Another. Still, that’s not too bad. Party resources spent: zero, and in fact can increase the party resources.
Handle Animal +5: I can rear an animal of up to 10 HD but I’m going to have a hard time with it at this point. I can train Come, Down, Fetch, Heel, Perform, Seek, Stay, Work, Heavy Labor, Performance, and Riding all by Taking 10. I can also Handle Animals by rolling a 5 or better (most of the time I can just Take 10). I can also Push and animal by rolling a natural 20. Party resources spent: zero and can actually increase the party resources.
Heal +10: I can provide First Aid, Long-Term Care, Treat Wounds from caltrops, spike growth, or spike stones, and Treat Deadly Wounds all by Taking 10. I can treat the following poisons by Taking 10: Arsenic, Belladonna, Black adder venom, Black lotus extract, Bloodroot, Blue whinnis, Burnt othur fumes, Dark reaver powder, Deathblade, Drow poison, Giant wasp poison, Greenblood oil, Hemlock, Id moss, Insanity mist, King's sleep, Large scorpion venom, Lich dust, Malyass root paste, Medium spider venom, Nightmare vapor, Nitharit, Oil of taggit, Sassone leaf residue, Shadow essence, Small centipede poison, Striped toadstool, Terinav root, Ungol dust, Wolfsbane, Wyvern poison, the Poison spell (Cleric with Wisdom 22, Druid with Wisdom 24). I can also cure all of the diseases listed in the Core Rulebook. My healing ability will grant 50 hit points and 4 ability score points to 6 characters other than myself (assuming the whole party is level 10 like me). That can certainly save on resources!
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5: I can Identify mineral, stone, or metal and Determine slope by Taking 10. I can identify underground hazards and depth underground but I have to roll (I can Take 20 on most of these so it’s not that big of a deal). I can also identify any CR 5 or lower aberration or ooze by Taking 10. It’s not great but it can be helpful. A few more ranks or bonuses and I can do just fine with this. Party resources spent: zero.
Knowledge (engineering) +5: I can Identify dangerous construction, Determine a structure's style or age by Taking 10 and Determine a structure's weakness by Taking 20 or just rolling a 15 or better. Party resources spent: zero.
Profession (Engineer/Soldier) +5: I can answer almost any complex question by Taking 10. I can also earn a total of 30 gold weekly by Taking 10. It would give me something to do during downtime so I can either craft or buy supplies. Party resources spent: zero and in fact earns the party resources.
Survival +10: By Taking 10 I can get along in the wild. Move up to half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed) and provide food and water for 6 people; gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saves against severe weather while moving up to half your overland speed, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary and grant that same bonus to 5 other people; keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand; and predict the weather up to 48 hours in advance. I can also track a party of 6 orcs in the mountains with a 2 day lead. I can also track an adult black dragon in the swamp on moonless nights with a 5 day head start while moving at normal speed, by Taking 10. This is assuming that it doesn’t just fly or swim, in which case no one in the party can track him with their skills. And I also know where true north is, even underground (where my dungeoneering comes in handy). Party resources spent: zero and in fact saves the party on resources.
Swim +9: I can swim in Calm or Rough Water by Taking 10. I have a 50% chance of swimming in Stormy Weather. He can also fight in the water, but will be at a -2 to hit and 50% damage. He should get himself a piercing weapon. Party resources spent: zero.
So he actually contributes to the party out of combat. He isn’t flashy in combat and with some actual gear he can contribute better in combat as well. He can use his own money and diplomacy to get discounts on consumable buffs.
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Bob Loblaw, ladies and gentlemen. Man, that takes me back. Didn't realize you were still around. "We've been coming to the same party for 12 years... and in no way is that depressing." ;) I see you're still pushing the same argument too.
The arguments haven't changed from anyone. There are no new arguments at all. The only reason I get engaged in these discussions is so that lurkers don't get the wrong impression: i.e., everyone thinks the fighter is a bad class. I don't care about changing the minds of those in the discussion (although it would be a nice surprise if it did happen). I do care that a few people are very vocal about the fighter not being good in or out of combat. I do care that some very vocal people will say that the fighter has nothing to do out of combat, then when shown what it can do they hand wave it away by saying "anyone can use skills or feats." Funny how that argument only applies to fighters and never to another class. I care that people make blanket statements and don't really back them up with anything other than hyperbole.
The fighter holds his own. He is a perfect class for some people. He is far from perfect for others. My goal is only to show that it can work. I don't ignore the faults (I posted some suggested changes). I work with the flaws to see what I need to address. Every class has its weakness. The trick is to shore that weakness up so that it's not so bad.
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The arguments haven't changed from anyone.
I changed my arguments years ago after I looked at a lot of in-depth game analysis and gained a better understanding of how the game works.
The only reason I get engaged in these discussions is so that lurkers don't get the wrong impression: i.e., everyone thinks the fighter is a bad class.
I understand that.
The fighter holds his own.
But this is the claim you have made for years and years and struggle to back up with solid evidence.
Look, I can even vet your argument. I've played tons of Fighters, and gotten a lot of enjoyment out of the class. In fact, even with all its flaws, it's probably my favorite class. In most games I've played, Fighters have held their own, but that's not for lack of optimization or lack of DMs ignoring most if not all of a monster's attacks, spells, abilities and tactical strengths. A lot of tables play that way---it's just a massive amount of information that's difficult for many DMs to worry about tracking when we're talking about potentially dozens of statblocks per session each with unique feat and skill arrays to say the least. If you're playing at a table where you don't have to contend with monsters at their full potential, then Fighters can definitely hold their own. It's when you play with the monsters as written, taking advantage of the fullest of their capabilities and their best tactics, in a variety of settings, and a variety of different challenges---then the Fighter starts to lose traction.
Every class has its weakness. The trick is to shore that weakness up so that it's not so bad.
You tend to suggest that Fighters spend so much of their resources, not only WBL resources, but also permanent resources such as class levels and feats, that they become even worse at contributing effectively than an optimized Fighter who often struggles to do the same. If you can show me how a Fighter can cover all of his weaknesses well enough that they are no longer liabilities and also be a viable offensive threat in combat in levels 6+, then you might start convincing me and others.
Marshmallow Fallacy (as relates to fixing the Fighter class) debunked
(Note the following is based on my First Printing CRB)Page 55 — In the Fighter Class Skills section, change Skill Ranks per Level to "4+Int modifer"
Page 56 — In the Table 3-9: Fighter, change the Will Save column to match the Fort save column.
done.
Now granted, this doesn't give the Fighter nearly enough overall, but at least the base chassis is decent to work with.
EDIT: before you say this isn't an errata (which, by the strict dictionary definition, it is not) I implore you to look at Crane Wing, and try to justify that as a legitimate errata in line with the dictionary definition.
You are completely missing the point. Without changing the classes that already exist, they can and have released extra supplements that give you some if not all of the options you seek.
Sure, they do not fix the core options at the core, but they shouldn't need to. I maintain that a Tactician can do most if not all the things that we are asking the fighter to be able to do, and do them well. If it's not good enough for you then I'm sorry, but the option exists, and ignoring it is a choice you are making.
Options that are still below. The tactician is not a strong option. You lose punc, you lose AC and you lose a feat. And some of the replacement are weak.
Making the tactician the standard fighter does not solve anything. Because the fighter doe snto have combat advantage over the rest, whatever you rest to him would put him below the others FULL BAB.
How much in combat did he really trade?
Granted he never gets back the +1 from losing the first Weapon Training on damage rolls, but he still gets his Battle Insight ability (granted it's way late) which more than makes up for the loss in attack should the fighter have anything higher than a 13 INT by lvl 15.
Sure, he isn't getting to move around at full speed in heavy armor, but he can still do it in medium, which is something no one else can do.
Not that I wanna be that guy, but throw in a feat and he can wear heavy armor again, throw some money at him and he can rock a set of mithral full plate better than anyone that isn't a CRB fighter or Armor Master. He can still move at full speed, and gets all the bennies of technically having heavy armor on
Youa re just listing the things why tactician is not a good replacement.
You soend a feat on full armor but then you can not move at full speed in it unless you spendd 10 K on mithral.
Now you are two feats below the standard fighter, use the armor less eficient that him, lose punch, etc.
You are tradind in combat for out of combat utility, that is fine, if the original fighter were balanced, but he is not. When you balance a class agaisnt a umbalanced class the resul is still umbalanced.
By the way
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qs56?Poll-What-are-the-changes-the-fighter-cla ss#9
Okay in response to Marthkus' questions earlier as to why I don't believe his statement that fighters wreck in dungeons. They are in no particular order.
1. Dungeons frequently have traps. Traps kind of suck because AFIAK you have to be actively searching for them as a move action (see Perception where it notes that searching for something is a move-action). Well placed traps generally exist to alert or hamper their victims, often in conjunction with real encounters during a dungeon. More on this later.
2. Creatures that tend to be in a dungeon that the party is dealing with usually have a home-field advantage. This includes things like cover, good hiding places, escape passages, etc. Most will know you are coming pretty quickly, especially at higher levels when enemies can hear combats with other enemies from great distances (the DC to hear a battle is -10, which means that a creature with a +10 Perception can hear you from 300 ft. away if there are no doors or things blocking the hallways).
3. Creatures with a home field advantage generally know how to leverage those advantages. White dragons with their climb/burrow/swim speeds, kobolds with tight tunnels that force you to squeeze to deal with them, casting NPCs (such as kobold sorcerers, rakshasa, etc) with wall spells or effects that wreck people who can't move very effectively (throwing a wall of fire down a hallway can be painful). Illusions, or even choke points can all be used to leverage advantages against the party.
4. In narrow areas, it is far more difficult to adapt to enemy CC effects which is where the Fighter is particularly vulnerable. It's very difficult to evade a cloudkill spell in a tight area where you can't effectively move around or escape easily. Even something as simple as a glyph of warding + bestow curse can be a painful experience. Things as simple as wall of stone can effectively negate any threat that the Fighter poses.
5. It's often difficult to charge in dungeon environments. In residences, dungeons, temples, the works, there are frequently twists, turns, difficult terrain (such as wet stone floors), objects lying about, etc. This means that getting into melee quickly and effectively can be difficult, while it's likewise difficult to make use of ranged weaponry in tight places due to the same twists, turns, cover, and sometimes firing into melee (if you lack precise shot).
6. A lot of dangers that players face in dungeon environments are dangerous and difficult to deal with as a fighter. Everything from cave-ins to environmental dangers like heat, cold, steam, smoke inhalation, molds, slimes, etc. The Fighter has little to nothing that actually helps in dealing with these things.
These problems are compounded in well-made encounters and adventures where mixtures of challenges rear their proverbial heads at the same time. For example...
NOTICE: Let me go ahead and note that my players and everyone in this persistent world begins with an exceptionally good bonus to their starting hit points, 'cause we don't play around. We're playing Pathfinder and you get double your starting HD before applying con, so wizards get 12 + Con, Rogues 16 + Con, Fighters 20 + Con, and Barbarians 24 + Con. Keep this in mind.
So my buddy Felix - who was sitting out - said "Hah, you're all gonna die.", and when the leader of the little raid (the 4E guy) asked why, my buddy Felix noted that the kobolds are terrifying little guys, and said he would watch.
So the adventure was soon underway. A coal mine which had dug into some kobold tunnels and had miners go missing. Simple and sweet. The mine owner, Mr. Sigfried Vandercleft mentioned that they hadn't dared explore the tunnels they dug into after the men went missing, but they found tracks. Offering a thousand silver pieces (100 gp) to whomever could go inside and make certain the kobolds were driven away, the party was off.
Man they weren't getting paid enough...
So they make it a little ways into the tunnels, and it's cramped and pitch dark. The ceiling's only 6ft high off the floor, and the walls around barely spaced enough to walk through in some places. They're entering into the kobold lair to hunt these kobolds. So they find an odd trap (which was fairly obvious) which was a bunch of thick wire cords attached to pitons in the walls creating a lattice-work of 4-5 inch wide square holes. The trap wasn't damaging in the least, but made movement in a pain in the butt (unless you were small then you had to make balance checks to navigate through the holes without falling down or getting entangled). Essentially, it would be fun if the kobolds ended up chasing them through room 1.
So they've seen no kobolds after coming through the trap, laughing at the trap's lack of effectiveness. They come to two tunnels and take the right tunnel. One of them has a bull's eye lantern and spots four kobolds about 50ft down a narrow 5ft wide tunnel, taking cover behind an overturned barrel which was about as tall/wide as a dwarf. Each of them were wielding little crossbows. So the barbarian who's the first to see them breaks into a charge!
Mistake #2 (The first was going into a kobold den)
The barbarian makes it about 20 feet from the kobolds and the floor collapses out from under her. Sneaky little buggers. So not only does she take 2d6 points of falling damage, but she then has to make a reflex save to avoid this barrel (they're pushing) on its way down the pit. So then the barrel hits the bottom of the pit and bursts open, filling the pit with oil. Kobold #4 tosses a flask of oil + fire. Barbarian BBQ!So the hallway fills with smoke and the barbarian begins climbing out of the pit as fast as she can WHILE ON FIRE, and slips and slides a couple times due to a bit of dice troubles. So then the party's archer fires at the kobolds and misses, so they all scurry into little tunnels they have to crawl into (a halfling or gnome could fit in them too, but...), escaping the party. So they have to rescue the Barbarian who's climbing out of a 20ft pit WHILE ON FIRE, narrowly managing to douse her at 2 HP (remember that thing about the HP?).
So they abandon going down tunnel #1, and the barbarian says she cannot go on without some rest. So the monk who took no damage decides he's going to explore the left path, while the archer looks after the barbarian in room #1. So the monk gets shot out from at one of those little holes in the walls the kobolds were moving through, and deftly dodges the bolt, and feels pretty confident, and keeps going. SWOOSH!
So he finds pit trap #2 and takes 10 points of falling damage, and fails the acrobatics check to lessen it on the way down. So he stands up, realizes a sense of deja vu, and then dodges the barrel on the way down. Splatter! and of course, here comes the fire. VOOSH!
So is slammed by like 6 fire damage, and he leaps to the walls and starts scrambling up. He has to clear 20ft in 1 round, and he's moving at 1/2 his speed, and that's with a -5 penalty to move faster. So he biffs his first check out of 2, and so he burns an Action Point* to try again, and manages to roll amazingly on both, but then at the top of the pit he is burned for more damage, dropping him to 0 Hp. Realizing trying to douse himself would drop him to -1, and not dousing himself was going to continue his fire damage, he runs down the hallway as fast as he can calling his friends for help and makes it to within their LoS as he succumbs to the -1 HP followed by more fire damage. He is rescued with a waterskin and dragged out to safety.
"Maybe we should try goblins next time." he remarks.
Final Tally: Two CR 1 pit traps. 4 CR 1/4 Kobolds. Two barrels of expendable oil in a 10ft radius (part of the kobolds' NPC gear, filed under expendables).
The players did get a good bit of experience for causing the kobolds to flee the first encounter, and for surviving traps.
Design Manager
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Two: When comparing classes, any power creep that any class other than the fighter receives, such as Barbarian beast totems for pouncing charges and spell sundering, or Ranger archetypes giving the Trapfinding abilites or any other out of combat utility that they somehow didn't already have count as strikes against the fighter as a class. ****
These are all options in Core books.
BUT any power creep the fighter himself has received such as the Lore Warden, Viking, or Tactician do not count as points for the fighter because they are not core options. And falleception continues.
These are not (except the Tactician). And the Lore Warden has even specifically been called out as bad design by the devs. So, the archetype that comes closest to being something people would consider a balanced and relatively complete option for the Fighter is also the archetype that the development and design team at Paizo has called out as being something that shouldn't exist.... Which kind of helps narrow the problem. They're like band-aids. "We won't give you a core fix, but if you buy this splat-book designed for a small and focused segment of play, there's a possibility that we've allowed something in there that we normally wouldn't."
And the Viking's "fix" of "Just make him a Barbarian with bonus feats that can be spent on Rage Powers", isn't a Fighter fix. It's taking a Barbarian and pretending he's a Fighter.
Just make the core Fighter viable, that's all that needs to be done. If your best example is "The Fighter is balanced because these 3 non-core options do some of the things people want, even though they give up major parts of what makes a Fighter a Fighter", you aren't addressing the problem, you're holding up a mirror showing how easy actually fixing the problem would be.
Not to mention that tacticians is not a power creep come on.
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Not to mention that tacticians is not a power creep come on.
Got to agree. While Viking and Lore Warden are pretty much straight up better than the core Fighter, the Tactician trades away being a good Fighter to be a crappy Cavalier. Which actually kind of underscores the point. The only core Fighter option that has any reason to invest in Intelligence and OOC utility gives up Armor Training and his first Tier of Weapon Training in exchange for a sub-par version of the Cavalier's Tactician ability that can't be used for any of the best Teamwork feats unless you multi-class, and Cooperative Combatant, an ability of extremely questionable use since you have to be threatening an enemy who is also threatened by each ally you want to use the ability on, and you're sacrificing your turn to add the bonus to attack or defense for one attack per ally.
So, probably very well balanced to the Fighter, whose Armor Training is also of dubious use, but not really a net gain anywhere other than skill points / level, but at the cost of combat effectiveness.
Not to mention that tacticians is not a power creep come on.Got to agree. While Viking and Lore Warden are pretty much straight up better than the core Fighter, the Tactician trades away being a good Fighter to be a crappy Cavalier.
Oh, Ssalarn, I've been looking over the Incarna pdf you directed me to and while I haven't finished the whole thing (been so busy with my campaign + non-gaming related stuff) I'm quite excited about it. ^_^
Two: When comparing classes, any power creep that any class other than the fighter receives, such as Barbarian beast totems for pouncing charges and spell sundering, or Ranger archetypes giving the Trapfinding abilites or any other out of combat utility that they somehow didn't already have count as strikes against the fighter as a class. ****These are all options in Core books.
BUT any power creep the fighter himself has received such as the Lore Warden, Viking, or Tactician do not count as points for the fighter because they are not core options. And falleception continues.These are not (except the Tactician). And the Lore Warden has even specifically been called out as bad design by the devs. So, the archetype that comes closest to being something people would consider a balanced and relatively complete option for the Fighter is also the archetype that the development and design team at Paizo has called out as being something that shouldn't exist.... Which kind of helps narrow the problem. They're like band-aids. "We won't give you a core fix, but if you buy this splat-book designed for a small and focused segment of play, there's a possibility that we've allowed something in there that we normally wouldn't."
And the Viking's "fix" of "Just make him a Barbarian with bonus feats that can be spent on Rage Powers", isn't a Fighter fix. It's taking a Barbarian and pretending he's a Fighter.
Just make the core Fighter viable, that's all that needs to be done. If your best example is "The Fighter is balanced because these 3 non-core options do some of the things people want, even though they give up major parts of what makes a Fighter a Fighter", you aren't addressing the problem, you're holding up a mirror showing how easy actually fixing the problem would be.
So in other words, exactly what I said.
Options for other classes count against the fighter, but options for the fighter don't count as options for the fighter.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anybody say, "Get lost in the woods?"
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Oh, Ssalarn, I've been looking over the Incarna pdf you directed me to and while I haven't finished the whole thing (been so busy with my campaign + non-gaming related stuff) I'm quite excited about it. ^_^Not to mention that tacticians is not a power creep come on.Got to agree. While Viking and Lore Warden are pretty much straight up better than the core Fighter, the Tactician trades away being a good Fighter to be a crappy Cavalier.
Excellent! I'm still bouncing back from pneumonia so I'm a bit behind schedule, but let me know what you think of the core stuff and I'll be sure to let you know when I get the archetypes rolled out, including the new Essence-based Fighter archetype, the Akashic Warrior.
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So in other words, exactly what I said.
Options for other classes count against the fighter, but options for the fighter don't count as options for the fighter.
If there existed a core option for the Fighter that actually addressed his issues without creating new ones, it would be a valid point of discussion. In that same thread, non-core options for other classes aren't points against the Fighter.
If you have to go outside of core to make your point for or against something, you aren't discussing flaws or benefits of the class, you're discussing flaws or benefits of an unvetted product that will never see FAQ or errata.
Some of these may be more powerful than I at first think so if you see anything that is too much or too little, I'm open to suggestions.
[...]
5d) Level 14: When fighting creatures with a higher CR or EL at least 1 higher than his level, he gains a morale bonus equal to the difference in level to hit and damage and saves. Note that this will drop as the enemies drop but it can increase if the party starts losing members.
I don't know about power, but I don't much like this for metagame reasons; it seems a) unnecessarily burdensome to track with a bonus that changes unpredictably mid encounter and possibly mid round, and b) requires the GM revealing to the fighter player the exact EL of every encounter he is in.
So in other words, exactly what I said.
Options for other classes count against the fighter, but options for the fighter don't count as options for the fighter.
If ther existed a core option for the Fighter that actually addressed his issues without creating new ones, it would be a valid point of discussion. In that same thread, non-core options for other classes aren't points against the Fighter.
If you have to go outside of core to make your point for or against something, you aren't discussing flaws or benefits of the class, you're discussing flaws or benefits of an unvetted product that will never see FAQ or errata.
Still not seeing the hate for the Tactician that you have. His saves still kinda suck, to be sure, but the 'crappy cavalier' comparison I just am not feeling. He can still move at full speed in medium armor, which is better than any other class that isn't a dwarf, and he is still a fighter so he still gets all but one of those bonus feats.
He gets more to do out of combat, which is what everyone seems to have as #1 on their list of wants for the fighter, along with 4+ skills per level which is the other #1 that everyone wants.
Exactly what combat effectiveness is he really missing out on? Sure, he now needs to buy Mithral Full Plate, but so does every other class, and they still can't move at full speed. Okay, he loses +1 damage from weapon training, but gets back the +1 to hit with extra thanks to Battle Insight. What else is he really missing other than the +1 damage and heavy armor? Are you really telling me that all that out of combat utility is not worth +1 damage? For real, that's where this thread has gone just to keep the hate on fighters?
Post:Okay in response to Marthkus' questions earlier as to why I don't believe his statement that fighters wreck in dungeons. They are in no particular order.1. Dungeons frequently have traps. Traps kind of suck because AFIAK you have to be actively searching for them as a move action (see Perception where it notes that searching for something is a move-action). Well placed traps generally exist to alert or hamper their victims, often in conjunction with real encounters during a dungeon. More on this later.
2. Creatures that tend to be in a dungeon that the party is dealing with usually have a home-field advantage. This includes things like cover, good hiding places, escape passages, etc. Most will know you are coming pretty quickly, especially at higher levels when enemies can hear combats with other enemies from great distances (the DC to hear a battle is -10, which means that a creature with a +10 Perception can hear you from 300 ft. away if there are no doors or things blocking the hallways).
3. Creatures with a home field advantage generally know how to leverage those advantages. White dragons with their climb/burrow/swim speeds, kobolds with tight tunnels that force you to squeeze to deal with them, casting NPCs (such as kobold sorcerers, rakshasa, etc) with wall spells or effects that wreck people who can't move very effectively (throwing a wall of fire down a hallway can be painful). Illusions, or even choke points can all be used to leverage advantages against the party.
4. In narrow areas, it is far more difficult to adapt to enemy CC effects which is where the Fighter is particularly vulnerable. It's very difficult to evade a cloudkill spell in a tight area where you can't effectively move around or escape easily. Even something as simple as a glyph of warding + bestow curse can be a painful experience. Things as simple as wall of stone can effectively negate any threat that the Fighter poses.
5. It's often difficult to charge in dungeon environments. In residences, dungeons, temples, the works, there are frequently twists, turns, difficult terrain (such as wet stone floors), objects lying about, etc. This means that getting into melee quickly and effectively can be difficult, while it's likewise difficult to make use of ranged weaponry in tight places due to the same twists, turns, cover, and sometimes firing into melee (if you lack precise shot).
6. A lot of dangers that players face in dungeon environments are dangerous and difficult to deal with as a fighter. Everything from cave-ins to environmental dangers like heat, cold, steam, smoke inhalation, molds, slimes, etc. The Fighter has little to nothing that actually helps in dealing with these things.
These problems are compounded in well-made encounters and adventures where mixtures of challenges rear their proverbial heads at the same time. For example...
NOTICE: Let me go ahead and note that my players and everyone in this persistent world begins with an exceptionally good bonus to their starting hit points, 'cause we don't play around. We're playing Pathfinder and you get double your starting HD before applying con, so wizards get 12 + Con, Rogues 16 + Con, Fighters 20 + Con, and Barbarians 24 + Con. Keep this in mind.
So my buddy Felix - who was sitting out - said "Hah, you're all gonna die.", and when the leader of the little raid (the 4E guy) asked why, my buddy Felix noted that the kobolds are terrifying little guys, and said he would watch.
So the adventure was soon underway. A coal mine which had dug into some kobold tunnels and had miners go missing. Simple and sweet. The mine owner, Mr. Sigfried Vandercleft mentioned that they hadn't dared explore the tunnels they dug into after the men went missing, but they found tracks. Offering a thousand silver pieces (100 gp) to whomever could go inside and make certain the kobolds were driven away, the party was off.
Man they weren't getting paid enough...
So they make it a little ways into the tunnels, and it's cramped and pitch dark. The ceiling's only 6ft high off the floor, and the walls around barely spaced enough to walk through in some places. They're entering into the kobold lair to hunt these kobolds. So they find an odd trap (which was fairly obvious) which was a bunch of thick wire cords attached to pitons in the walls creating a lattice-work of 4-5 inch wide square holes. The trap wasn't damaging in the least, but made movement in a pain in the butt (unless you were small then you had to make balance checks to navigate through the holes without falling down or getting entangled). Essentially, it would be fun if the kobolds ended up chasing them through room 1.
So they've seen no kobolds after coming through the trap, laughing at the trap's lack of effectiveness. They come to two tunnels and take the right tunnel. One of them has a bull's eye lantern and spots four kobolds about 50ft down a narrow 5ft wide tunnel, taking cover behind an overturned barrel which was about as tall/wide as a dwarf. Each of them were wielding little crossbows. So the barbarian who's the first to see them breaks into a charge!
Mistake #2 (The first was going into a kobold den)
The barbarian makes it about 20 feet from the kobolds and the floor collapses out from under her. Sneaky little buggers. So not only does she take 2d6 points of falling damage, but she then has to make a reflex save to avoid this barrel (they're pushing) on its way down the pit. So then the barrel hits the bottom of the pit and bursts open, filling the pit with oil. Kobold #4 tosses a flask of oil + fire. Barbarian BBQ!
So the hallway fills with smoke and the barbarian begins climbing out of the pit as fast as she can WHILE ON FIRE, and slips and slides a couple times due to a bit of dice troubles. So then the party's archer fires at the kobolds and misses, so they all scurry into little tunnels they have to crawl into (a halfling or gnome could fit in them too, but...), escaping the party. So they have to rescue the Barbarian who's climbing out of a 20ft pit WHILE ON FIRE, narrowly managing to douse her at 2 HP (remember that thing about the HP?).
So they abandon going down tunnel #1, and the barbarian says she cannot go on without some rest. So the monk who took no damage decides he's going to explore the left path, while the archer looks after the barbarian in room #1. So the monk gets shot out from at one of those little holes in the walls the kobolds were moving through, and deftly dodges the bolt, and feels pretty confident, and keeps going. SWOOSH!
So he finds pit trap #2 and takes 10 points of falling damage, and fails the acrobatics check to lessen it on the way down. So he stands up, realizes a sense of deja vu, and then dodges the barrel on the way down. Splatter! and of course, here comes the fire. VOOSH!
So is slammed by like 6 fire damage, and he leaps to the walls and starts scrambling up. He has to clear 20ft in 1 round, and he's moving at 1/2 his speed, and that's with a -5 penalty to move faster. So he biffs his first check out of 2, and so he burns an Action Point* to try again, and manages to roll amazingly on both, but then at the top of the pit he is burned for more damage, dropping him to 0 Hp. Realizing trying to douse himself would drop him to -1, and not dousing himself was going to continue his fire damage, he runs down the hallway as fast as he can calling his friends for help and makes it to within their LoS as he succumbs to the -1 HP followed by more fire damage. He is rescued with a waterskin and dragged out to safety.
"Maybe we should try goblins next time." he remarks.
Final Tally: Two CR 1 pit traps. 4 CR 1/4 Kobolds. Two barrels of expendable oil in a 10ft radius (part of the kobolds' NPC gear, filed under expendables).
The players did get a good bit of experience for causing the kobolds to flee the first encounter, and for surviving traps.
Will respond later. Busy at the moment.
I changed my arguments years ago after I looked at a lot of in-depth game analysis and gained a better understanding of how the game works.
I'm not trying to change your mind. That's up to you if you want to see other options and do the math on your own. You said that you did that and you came to the conclusion you have now. Good. That's what you're supposed to do. Others have come to a different conclusion. No amount of math will ever be able to take into account campaign and play styles.
But this is the claim you have made for years and years and struggle to back up with solid evidence.
It has been actually. Many times by many people. Just because you and others don't acknowledge it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I have seen far more rhetoric from people who think the fighter doesn't measure up than by those who think it can hold its own.
You tend to suggest that Fighters spend so much of their resources, not only WBL resources, but also permanent resources such as class levels and feats, that they become even worse at contributing effectively than an optimized Fighter who often struggles to do the same. If you can show me how a Fighter can cover all of his weaknesses well enough that they are no longer liabilities and also be a viable offensive threat in combat in levels 6+, then you might start convincing me and others.
Every single class in the game needs to use a lot of their resources to shore up their weaknesses. There isn't a single class that can survive without using their resources. Casters need to use their spells and they need to choose the right ones at the beginning of the day or at the start of their new level. Needing to spend 15 minutes to fill an open spell slot isn't feasible in combat. They need to use their WBL to improve their abilities as well. Even starting with a 20 in their casting stat, the best they will hope for will be a 25 unless they spend resources. They still want wands, scrolls, and non-consumable gear. Unless you think they're just fine with sustaining spoons and similar gear, you have to admit that they need to use their resources as well.
I've posted plenty of builds on the forums. You are welcome to search for them. There isn't a single character that can deal with every scenario or shore up all of their weaknesses well enough. There will always be a scenario that can be shown to be impossible for any particular build. If you can't make a fighter hold his own in combat past level 6, then you flat out suck at building fighters and that's not a problem with the class. It's a problem with the player.
As I said earlier, I have no intention on convincing you or other vocal opponents of the fighter as presented by Paizo. I only want to show lurkers that being a vocal opponent of the fighter does not mean that the class is a problem for every game. It's really only a problem for some people's games. Yes, I do think that it could use some changes. I feel that way about most of the classes. Some need minor changes while others need major ones.
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For real, that's where this thread has gone just to keep the hate on fighters?
The constant accusations of fighter hate are at this point immensely tiresome (and strike me as pretty disrespectful given just how many times it has been explained by many of the posters here that this is not their motivation).
(Including directly the poster you are replying to).
It would improve the experience of reading and participating in the thread for me at least if we could call it quits with this.
I don't know about power, but I don't much like this for metagame reasons; it seems a) unnecessarily burdensome to track with a bonus that changes unpredictably mid encounter and possibly mid round, and b) requires the GM revealing to the fighter player the exact EL of every encounter he is in.Some of these may be more powerful than I at first think so if you see anything that is too much or too little, I'm open to suggestions.
[...]
5d) Level 14: When fighting creatures with a higher CR or EL at least 1 higher than his level, he gains a morale bonus equal to the difference in level to hit and damage and saves. Note that this will drop as the enemies drop but it can increase if the party starts losing members.
I was trying to come up with something after being up for almost 24 hours. I had a feeling that this one would be the worst of the bunch for complexity. The fighter should be about simplicity and certainly not about the metagame. Any suggestions?
I was trying to come up with something after being up for almost 24 hours. I had a feeling that this one would be the worst of the bunch for complexity. The fighter should be about simplicity and certainly not about the metagame. Any suggestions?I don't know about power, but I don't much like this for metagame reasons; it seems a) unnecessarily burdensome to track with a bonus that changes unpredictably mid encounter and possibly mid round, and b) requires the GM revealing to the fighter player the exact EL of every encounter he is in.Some of these may be more powerful than I at first think so if you see anything that is too much or too little, I'm open to suggestions.
[...]
5d) Level 14: When fighting creatures with a higher CR or EL at least 1 higher than his level, he gains a morale bonus equal to the difference in level to hit and damage and saves. Note that this will drop as the enemies drop but it can increase if the party starts losing members.
Well if you want to keep a very similar theme and mechanic, but simpler, just give the fighter a +2 when an encounter is over his level and don't worry about adjusting it mid encounter. Still slightly meta, but not greatly so, and much less burdensome to track (and I don't see a need to suddenly give a 14th level fighter truly immense bonuses if he runs into the tarrasque either).
For something similar in theme but different in mechanic, perhaps stealing something based on grit mechanics would work.
Not to mention that tacticians is not a power creep come on.Got to agree. While Viking and Lore Warden are pretty much straight up better than the core Fighter, the Tactician trades away being a good Fighter to be a crappy Cavalier. Which actually kind of underscores the point. The only core Fighter option that has any reason to invest in Intelligence and OOC utility gives up Armor Training and his first Tier of Weapon Training in exchange for a sub-par version of the Cavalier's Tactician ability that can't be used for any of the best Teamwork feats unless you multi-class, and Cooperative Combatant, an ability of extremely questionable use since you have to be threatening an enemy who is also threatened by each ally you want to use the ability on, and you're sacrificing your turn to add the bonus to attack or defense for one attack per ally.
So, probably very well balanced to the Fighter, whose Armor Training is also of dubious use, but not really a net gain anywhere other than skill points / level, but at the cost of combat effectiveness.
Note however that tactician at level 5 is better that tactician at level 1. And I am talking about the tactician ability not the archetype name. This is because the BAB prerequisite of some teamwork feats.
So in other words, exactly what I said.
Options for other classes count against the fighter, but options for the fighter don't count as options for the fighter.
If there existed a core option for the Fighter that actually addressed his issues without creating new ones, it would be a valid point of discussion. In that same thread, non-core options for other classes aren't points against the Fighter.
This.
Tactician trades in combat prowess for out of combat utility and in the end he is still below the ranger out of combat and now the ranger is above in combat, what is the point?
Vikings are just bad barbarians, and lore warden are pretty much fine, I love that archetype.
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The bonus skill points are the only out of combat improvement the Tactician gets. Cooperative Combatant does nothing for Aid Another use outside of combat. His version of the Tactician ability has 1 fewer use than the Cavalier's and only ever works for the one feat you choose at 5th level. It never becomes easier to use than a standard action unless you multi-class. So yeah, it's a really crappy and limited version of an ability that was already pretty restrictive.
And losing Weapon Training isn't just losing +1 to attack and damage, it's losing a scaling bonus to an entire weapon group, removing the Fighter's ability to effectively switch hit.
Tactician (the archetype) is as good as the core Fighter, but the problem is that the core Fighter is under-powered. With Tactician they just shifted the Fighter's abilities to give him less combat capability in exchange for more OOC utility. Now, instead of a capable combatant, you've got a poor buffer and a mediocre combatant. The Fighter could have 4 + Int skills without having to give up armor proficiencies or anything else, and he still wouldn't meet par for the other classes (though he'd be closer). The Tactician is a poor consolation prize that does little for the people who want to play a Fighter as is but actually be able to have a reasonable amount of staying power and keep playing once combat ends, and does nothing to address the fact that the class has been short-changed from the get-go.
See some of my earlier posts in this thread. If you do a side-by-side comparison of the Fighter and Ranger, you'll see that for the builds to be considered "equal" a single Fighter bonus feat would have to be worth any two of the following:
1/2 progression spellcasting
Evasion and Improved Evasion
Hide in Plain Sight
Quarry
Camouflage
Wild Empathy
Track and Swift Tracker
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Design Manager
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Note however that tactician at level 5 is better that tactician at level 1. And I am talking about the tactician ability not the archetype name. This is because the BAB prerequisite of some teamwork feats.
Though still not good enough for the best Teamwork feats that improve action economy like Target of Opportunity, Coordinated Charge, and Improved Feint Partner, though a lot of that has to do with them giving Teamwork feats prereqs that match the normal even level progression instead of the odd progression that most classes which use them normally acquire them at.
Well if you want to keep a very similar theme and mechanic, but simpler, just give the fighter a +2 when an encounter is over his level and don't worry about adjusting it mid encounter. Still slightly meta, but not greatly so, and much less burdensome to track (and I don't see a need to suddenly give a 14th level fighter truly immense bonuses if he runs into the tarrasque either).
For something similar in theme but different in mechanic, perhaps stealing something based on grit mechanics would work.
I was trying to avoid something like the grit mechanics. I like them but not for the fighter. I was thinking of the simple +2 morale bonus. Maybe I should make it untyped so it will stack with other bonuses.
1) 4 Skill points. I think all classes should have 4 skill points at a minimum. The fighter isn't the only one who suffers from this.2) I would change the hit points to be 1d6+4. (I would also change other classes that get 1d10 to 1d6+4. I would change the classes that get 1d12 to be 1d6+6 and those that get 1d8 to be 1d6+2. I would leave the 1d6 alone.)
3) I would give the fighter a few options for class skills. I would keep their list as-is but allow them to choose two more from: Acrobatics, Bluff, Heal, any Knowledge skill against monsters, Perception, and Stealth.
4) The attribute prerequisites for combat feats are 2 points lower for the fighter. Power Attack would be Strength 11, Two-Weapon Fighting would be Dexterity 13, etc.
5) Change Bravery.
5a) Level 2: Against fear effects, treat Will saves as good saves.
5b) Level 6: Can add Constitution modifier instead of Wisdom to Will saves.
5c) Level 10: Add Constitution bonus and Wisdom modifier to Will saves.
5d) Level 14: When fighting creatures with a higher CR or EL at least 1 higher than his level, he gains a morale bonus equal to the difference in level to hit and damage and saves. Note that this will drop as the enemies drop but it can increase if the party starts losing members.
5e) Level 18: Shows no fear, can add his Charisma bonus to his Will saves.6) Every point of Armor training grants him DR 1/- that stacks with other damage reduction of X/-.
7) Weapon Training: All weapon specific feats now apply to all weapons in the same group. For example, a fighter with Improved Critical (longsword) now has Improved Critical (bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword).
1) the simplest and most needed change, IMHO.
2) I always play with averages so I do not particularly are about this change.3) I like this too.
4) This mechanics is the simplest that I have seen for this, not sure if it ther better but it would work just fine.
5) the 14th elvel ability seems to complicated, it just rise the bookkeping
6) I think armor training 1 and 2 are prety much fine, Armor training 3, 4 and armor mastery do need improvement.
7) Another change that should have been part of the core fighter since the begining.
Others have come to a different conclusion. No amount of math will ever be able to take into account campaign and play styles.
This much is true.
It has been actually. Many times by many people. Just because you and others don't acknowledge it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I have seen far more rhetoric from people who think the fighter doesn't measure up than by those who think it can hold its own.
So show me where it's been backed up with solid evidence? If you've made new strides in showing your work over the years I'd like to see it. All I remember seeing in your threads from years back is a bunch of hogwash about how Fighters can invest in cross-class skills and take Skill Focus and split his offense between melee and ranged and be really versatile in and out of combat as if you actually believe the Fighter can be effective at any of those things in such a situation.
Every single class in the game needs to use a lot of their resources to shore up their weaknesses.
And the Fighter has more weaknesses than most, which means that he'll have to use more resources in shoring them up then most classes, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
There isn't a single class that can survive without using their resources.
This would be an interesting thought experiment that I don't know if I've ever seen anywhere. Can a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard still perform capably without ever spending any money? For the sake of argument, let's give them a starting package, and we'll allow them treasure looted from monsters or gained from adventure paths.
I'm told that Vow of Poverty Druids function just fine in D&D 3.5 (though I've seen no evidence of it, I have no reason to disbelieve it). Let's take away even Vow of Poverty, play in Pathfinder, and see if they really do.
Casters need to use their spells and they need to choose the right ones at the beginning of the day or at the start of their new level.
Let me stop you right there. In no way are spells, or the casting of them thereof, equated to class levels or feats in terms of resource permanence. Yes, casters need to cast spells, and yes you can call spells a resource, but Fighters, which are who we're talking about, do not get a flexible, daily resource. They get locked-in, level-by-level resources that can only rarely be retrained and only on a limited basis.
They need to use their WBL to improve their abilities as well.
Do they? I'm not sure. I wonder if you told a Wizard before the campaign started that he would never get any items/wealth that he did not find on an enemy or in an adventure path, could he build a Wizard that could still hold his own until 20th level? I don't know, but I bet he'd have a MUCH easier time in the attempt than a Fighter.
They still want wands, scrolls, and non-consumable...
And that's a big difference there. The Wizard might want many things with his wealth by level, but a Fighter needs tons of things if he's going to be able to function properly.
Fighters outperform rangers, dismounted cavaliers, and paladins against groups or long dungeons that would stress the relatively small pools 3rd level spells, challenges, or smites.
Do they? Dismounted Cavaliers I might grant you, but Paladins and Rangers? I don't know that I'd agree with you very readily on that. You realize Paladins and Rangers are more than either smites and/or 3rd level spells, right? And their offensive capabilities are more than the sum of either of those parts too?
Apart from the monk, paladin, magus, and some of the ACG hybrids all of the fighter competitors apply their advantages best in open environments or straight corridors.
Er... do they? What makes you say that?
That kobold sorcerer really doesn't want to meet a fighter in a twisty passage where unless he simply flees he only gets one spell off before being trapped in melee.
That kobold sorcerer lives in the dungeon filled with twisty passages in which brutes and beasts bite and slash each other to death. He's probably lived there for at least most of his life. Why on earth would be in the thick of melee combat?
There isn't a single class that can survive without using their resources.This would be an interesting thought experiment that I don't know if I've ever seen anywhere. Can a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard still perform capably without ever spending any money? For the sake of argument, let's give them a starting package, and we'll allow them treasure looted from monsters or gained from adventure paths.
I'm told that Vow of Poverty Druids function just fine in D&D 3.5 (though I've seen no evidence of it, I have no reason to disbelieve it). Let's take away even Vow of Poverty, play in Pathfinder, and see if they really do.
The Druid is probably the closest of any class to being able to do it. I'm actually not convinced that a wizard would do well without flexible resources. Wildshape is simply a very versatile tool for solving problems without spells, and for boosting stats without magic items.
I can't imagine any class being worth much with 0 money. They'd all get stomped by monsters at a certain point. Quite often at level 1, to be honest. 3 Orcs can be nasty when you have appropriate gear (an effective 18+ health at level 1 is silly), let alone when you don't have any weapons or armor.
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I always saw the "fighters can go all day" argument as a bit pointless.
First of all, does it really matter? When five guys in the party rely on limited resources (be they grit, spells, Lay on hands, Rage, Bardic inspiration, whatever) it doesn't really matter that the fighter can keep on trucking all day long - the party is going to stop and rest when the five other guys want to.
Secondly, the argument is not true, the fighter very much relies on resources. The difference is he relies on other people's resources - not his own.
He needs healing and restoration magic from 'the cleric', arcane buffs from 'the wizard', and skill support from 'the rogue'.
As soon as those characters run out of resources, which they'll do faster than normal since the fighter isn't contributing anything to the party resource pool, the fighter runs out of resources too.
The Druid is probably the closest of any class to being able to do it.
I have a feeling a Druid with no money could perform at a higher level than a Fighter of equal level with money, but I might be wrong. In any case, I bet the Druid would still get by.
I'm actually not convinced that a wizard would do well without flexible resources.
Oh, neither am I, but he gets his two spells known per level, and that very well could be more, or less, than enough. I do contend that he'd have an easier time in such a situation than a Fighter would.
I can't imagine any class being worth much with 0 money. They'd all get stomped by monsters at a certain point.
Actually, that's an easy way to gauge the power balance between the classes. With no wealth, only a starting package, how well can this class function as it gains levels? Take away a Fighter's wealth and he will do very poorly, as will many other classes. But you can compare how poorly they will do with easily observable phenomena.
I don't know that all classes would get stomped by monsters though, even after many levels. Keep in mind that most monsters don't have wealth by level to fall back on either, so really the only advantage they have over characters are powerful, unreplicatable abilities and raw numbers. I don't know if casters are unable to match that sort of thing in Pathfinder or not, but it would entertaining to watch unfold at any rate.
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Simply asserting that Premise = Premise is not a valid argument. As I said before that is akin to a tautology. Perhaps you don't know what that word means. You cannot define a thing by its being that thing. That is in no way a useful definition to persons that don't already know what that thing is, and that's what a tautology is. In the same vein, you cannot prove a thing to be true by saying that it is true. You cannot make a hypothesis and expect it to be accepted if you do not provide evidence to show that it is more than a hypothesis.Premise: "Fighters wreck dungeon combat"
Apply P = P
Therefore: "Fighters wreck dungeon combat"A valid argument. What I am asking for is a counter example that shows that that argument is not sound. Or better know as a contradiction proof. Assume a premise, draw a contradiction, therefore premise is false.
FYI: You don't seem to understand the difference between sound and valid. You are also misapplying the term hypothesis.
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Tactician trades in combat prowess for out of combat utility and in the end he is still below the ranger out of combat and now the ranger is above in combat, what is the point?Vikings are just bad barbarians, and lore warden are pretty much fine, I love that archetype.
This could use a repost. And some emphasis.
Expertise, Maneuver Mastery, and 2 extra skill points per level should have been what all Fighters got already.
The fact that the Devs believe the Lore Warden is overpowered and unbalanced means we will probably never get any kind of buff to the Fighter.
The Tactician makes the Fighter worse at combat and slightly more than mediocre in skills. He's now demonstrably worse than a Ranger. Even without spells. A Guide Trapper Ranger performs far better day to day than a Tactician.
Also Battle Insight is a pretty terrible ability imo. And the level you get it at makes it almost pointless to bring up in balance debates.
I'm not going to take the bait for a few reasons. First, this is about fighters and rangers to be honest so full casters shouldn't be part of the equation. Second, spells are locked in for several classes (sorcerers, summoners, magus, bards, etc.) and are certainly locked in at least for the day for all casters. If you choose the wrong spells in the morning, then you are going to be rather ineffective. If you can't acknowledge that, then this conversation is going to go nowhere really fast. Third, since the game assumes that you get many things automatically, including wealth, then it is an option for the character. I don't believe that any character will function for long without appropriate wealth.
You are free to search through my posting history for builds that I've done. I'm not going to keep building fighters that meet certain criteria only to have that criteria changed once I've done it. Moving goalposts happens every time. It's no longer a fun exercise for me.
Base Fighter > Tactician
Both in and out of combat. But that is mainly because I believe in negotiations from a position of strength, which is something the tactician loses.
Put another way. The fighter's in-combat abilities are what give most of its out-of-combat options.
I would give more detailed examples, but I owe someone else a response first.
5th (4/day)— hold monster (DC 23), overland flight
4th (7/day)—charm monster (DC 22), dimension door, elemental body i, emergency force sphere, fear (DC 22), greater invisibility
3rd (8/day)—aqueous orb (DC 23), dispel magic, fireball (DC 21), haste, clairvoyance, stinking cloud (DC 23), suggestion (DC 21)
2nd (8/day)—command undead (DC 20), create pit (DC 22), glitterdust (DC 22), invisibility, mirror image, pilfering hand, resist energy
1st (8/day)—disguise self, grease (DC 21), identify, liberating command, mage armor, protection from evil, silent image (DC 19), snowball (DC 21)
0 (at will)—acid splash, arcane mark, daze (DC 18), detect magic, detect poison, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation (DC 18)
Out of combat he is providing stealth, reconnaissance, infiltration, mind control and information gathering. Inside combat he is targeting any save with single or area effect spells, is capable of ignoring SR, has area damage for swarms, provides buffs with haste and greater invisibility and has some of the best defensive options going.Is there an encounter you can think of in a published AP of around his level where he couldn't find something which would be useful to do every round.
And this is with the sorcerer, the red headed step child of the caster classes. There comes a point where "you prepared the wrong spell, you are useless" simply no longer applies. When you add scrolls and wands it simply goes away entirely.
I actually haven't read the APs or most of Paizo's modules so I can't answer that at all. I would like to point out that you are suggesting using your WBL to shore up any weaknesses you might have, which was the actual point of my comments. You are also using some items to get you to that 26 Charisma since you can't get there naturally by level 10. There is nothing that your character is doing that is different from any other character. You are supporting your strengths and building up your weaknesses.
Any GM can create a scenario where you wouldn't have a fighting chance. I don't think that it would be a good exercise for me to set one up. All it would do is show that the GM holds all the cards. Simply having two rogues with anti-magic field scrolls who are able to flank you would be bad. By removing your toys, your sorcerer has nothing going for him anymore. Throwing several mindless creatures that are immune to fire could be a problem.
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Throwing several mindless creatures that are immune to fire could be a problem.
As far as finding something useful to do every round of a fight with that spell list, it seems to me that Aqueous Orb, Create Pit, Grease, Snowball, or Stinking cloud are all potential offensive options in this scenario, as well as the various defensive or buffing spells.
Okay in response to Marthkus' questions earlier as to why I don't believe his statement that fighters wreck in dungeons. They are in no particular order.
1. Dungeons frequently have traps. Traps kind of suck because AFIAK you have to be actively searching for them as a move action (see Perception where it notes that searching for something is a move-action). Well placed traps generally exist to alert or hamper their victims, often in conjunction with real encounters during a dungeon. More on this later.
2. Creatures that tend to be in a dungeon that the party is dealing with usually have a home-field advantage. This includes things like cover, good hiding places, escape passages, etc. Most will know you are coming pretty quickly, especially at higher levels when enemies can hear combats with other enemies from great distances (the DC to hear a battle is -10, which means that a creature with a +10 Perception can hear you from 300 ft. away if there are no doors or things blocking the hallways).
3. Creatures with a home field advantage generally know how to leverage those advantages. White dragons with their climb/burrow/swim speeds, kobolds with tight tunnels that force you to squeeze to deal with them, casting NPCs (such as kobold sorcerers, rakshasa, etc) with wall spells or effects that wreck people who can't move very effectively (throwing a wall of fire down a hallway can be painful). Illusions, or even choke points can all be used to leverage advantages against the party.
4. In narrow areas, it is far more difficult to adapt to enemy CC effects which is where the Fighter is particularly vulnerable. It's very difficult to evade a cloudkill spell in a tight area where you can't effectively move around or escape easily. Even something as simple as a glyph of warding + bestow curse can be a painful experience. Things as simple as wall of stone can effectively negate any threat that the Fighter poses.
5. It's often difficult to charge in dungeon environments. In residences, dungeons, temples, the works, there are frequently twists, turns, difficult terrain (such as wet stone floors), objects lying about, etc. This means that getting into melee quickly and effectively can be difficult, while it's likewise difficult to make use of ranged weaponry in tight places due to the same twists, turns, cover, and sometimes firing into melee (if you lack precise shot).
6. A lot of dangers that players face in dungeon environments are dangerous and difficult to deal with as a fighter. Everything from cave-ins to environmental dangers like heat, cold, steam, smoke inhalation, molds, slimes, etc. The Fighter has little to nothing that actually helps in dealing with these things.
These problems are compounded in well-made encounters and adventures where mixtures of challenges rear their proverbial heads at the same time. For example...
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Thrown), Step Up
10|Bravery, Vital Strike
11|Armor training, Improved Vital Strike
12|Strike Back
13|Weapon training(Bows), Improved Iron Will
14|Bravery, Stand Still
15|Armor training, Deadly Aim
16|Greater Vital Strike
17|Weapon training(Close), Disruptive
18|Bravery, Spellbreaker
19|Armor mastery, Great Fortitude
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
OK, well the Kobold example is at level 1. An odd place to pick. Seems like charging Kobolds in a defensive and alert position AFTER avoiding a trap seems like a bad idea. I normally make a habit of carrying a tower shield, but sense this is level 1 we can't assume that. If I did have it though, I would use it to make cover then the player with perception could look for traps as a move action AND fire a ranger weapon with their standard. Without a tower Shield, I would just have draw a range weapon and then fired it, still letting the player with perception look for traps. At this level I have a +1 to hit with my javelins(-2 range
penalty), meaning I would only hit 35% of the time for 1d6+4 damage (which kills the kobold). Not great. If party scout can find a safe path, I can move in (not charging, because pfff) for a +5 to-hit which kills 55% of the time. But we know that there was no safe path. Now I probably have scale mail which puts my AC at 17, meaning the kobolds hit 35% of the time. If I have a wooden heavy shield, they could only hit 25% of the time.
Assuming I would look at this encounter and not bum rush the kobolds, the fighter could almost solo the encounter. With a party the fighter could take hits and in forward in the front, while the party scout checks for traps from behind the fighter. Cleric heals as needed. Wizard fires his crossbow to help out.
If I just bum rush like the barbar did, I only have 1 less health because I took toughness at level 1. Meaning I would have survived MISTAKE 2 with 1 HP instead of 2.
Now for your other points:
1) Traps is what the party scout is for, not the fighter type. Normally he couldn't spare a move action to search for traps anyways mid combat and depends on the scout for support.
2-4) I feel like fighters handle these situations just fine.
5) I don't care for charging anyways. The hit to AC hurts and it's not like the fighter needs a bonus to-hit. Move + Throw weapon is a decent opener, specially if it convinces melees to move towards you so that you get the first full attack. If I can't use range, neither can they so a non issue. I should never need precise shot, since I should be the first one in melee.
6) Endure elements is a spell, and the fighter is in a party, so heat and cold are non issues. Umm you can just smack slime mold or throw range weapons at it if the fort save is that big of a deal.
A good fort save handles most of these problems as does a fair amount of HP (cave-ins). Smoke and steam is countered by blind-fight, until the wizard feels like being vindicated for preparing gust of wind (which happens from time to time).
TL;DR Not the best examples, after my various rogues defenses, I expected something more soul crushing.
Any GM can create a scenario where...The two rogue example doesn't defeat him, he just walks away from them and then flies away once out of the anti magic field. The rogues then die horribly as they have nothing going for them.
I also don't understand what you mean by "Doesn't have 26 charisma by level 10" It is expected that you have stats like that because of money.
He would not likely survive the attacks from the flanking rogues.
As for the comment about having a 26 Charisma, that's pointing out the double standard about how fighters need to rely on gear and appropriate WBL but other classes don't have to deal with that argument. Not even the druid mentioned earlier can deal with level appropriate challenges all the time without gear. The game assumes you have gear. Not allowing for it in the discussion is wrong. Cherry picking which rules are available for one class but not another is bad form.