I was brainstorming ideas for ranged characters when I glanced over at the Agile enchantment out of curiosity.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
So, if a melee weapon can also be thrown, does it still keep its "melee weapon" enchantments when thrown? If that's the case, would that mean you could have Goblins running around with Agile Daggers, stacking DEX and throwing them like maniacs? (Notably, it never says 'when you make a melee attack,' only that they may choose to apply their DEX to damage instead of STR.)
It would have to be pretty rich goblins to disarm themselves of an 8k weapon per attack.
Seems like Agile works with range, though throwing weapons is still a bad prospect in Pathfinder.
Yeah, that's one hurdle to consider carefully, but it's still something. At high levels, you COULD have a dexterity character equipped with a belt of Mighty Hurling (Greater) and a bunch of agile weapons, though, with a +DEX item somewhere else. Expensive, of course, but you'd have a DEX to damage character with all the benefits of the Mighty Hurling belt...
...but then that means you need the Mighty Hurling belt anyway, which is for Strength characters, but still.
Returning isn't even that good, since it comes back to where you were standing rather than where you are.
I like the idea of a weapon-thrower, but I shelf it for other systems (or homebrew it). If you want Dex to ranged damage, best off being a gunslinger.
Well. agile daggers (or what have you) with a blink back belt would work.
Oh, that is very nice. You'd still have range issues, but there are other light weapons (Light Hammers, Star Knives) that have a little extra range for throwing. And that belt is cheap, too.
Let's assume the player has Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting and is hurling more than four of these light weapons a turn. What could they do then?
Are there any thrown weapons that count as 'ammunition' (and therefore can be mass-produced easily) while also being usable in melee AND counting as light weapons for melee? I know that Shuriken and Darts count as light weapons for the purpose of determining TWF penalties, but I don't think that's enough to apply Weapon Finesse to them (since you need to be able to use the weapon in melee), and thus is not enough to enchant them with Agile.
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With a blinkback belt you only need one agile weapon, or two if you are using twf to throw as well. As soon as the attack is resolved, it's back on the belt, unlike the returning property where it comes back at the beginning of your next turn. The main problem with building for this is your will still do less damage than an archer at worse range, at the cost of no enhancement belt and an extra feat tax in quick draw.
That said, I have an idea in the back of my head for a brawler fighter using this with wushu darts and the snap shot line.
Huh, interesting... I might have to build a character around this concept now. My own concept is for a character based off of a mixture of traditional Irish cavalry and the "Horseboys" from Medieval Total War II; a lightly armored cavalryman speciailizing in using light throwing weapons from horseback (Luring Cavalier, Far Shot) with a lance or sword for melee. I've been debating between going for a strength-based human (for the feat and +2 STR) or a DEX-based halfling (+2 DEX, small size, a mount that can fit in dungeons and has scent - i.e., a wolf).
With that belt, it may be doable. I'm going to do some crunching and see how this pans out.
The ACG Swashbuckler gets precise strike at 3rd level, which they can use to add their level to damage with daggers, darts, etc. A single keen dagger has a 17-20 crit range, and even without TWF you can get up to 6 attacks using rapid shot and haste so you can expect to have plenty of panache. Spend one to double that precise strike bonus, then get it back with a critical hit!
I think I may try to build this tonight... I've been looking for a goo throwing build, i'll see how it stacks up against my double-sling build.
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Are there any other dexterity-granting items in Pathfinder sans belts? I'd like to see just how viable this sort of setup could become. Is it within the rules to create a magic item that grants dexterity but takes up a different slot?
So, there's still a lot of possibilities for decent equipment. It's too bad everything is an enhancement bonus to DEX and thus non-stackable.
So, let's theorycraft here. Goblin PC; level 9. Let's assume he has two Agile +1 daggers, a Blinkback Belt, and an Ioun Stone with +2 DEX. That's 8,000 per dagger (16,000), 5,000 for the belt, and 8,000 for the stone. That's 29,000 gold, which is well within the 46,000 gold "wealth by level" range for a level 9 PC. Let's assume the goblin puts a stat point into DEX at levels 4 and 8. 20 point buy. The character's starting DEX should total to 20 for most builds (16 (10 points) +4), giving you 20 DEX at level 1 and 22 by level 9, +2 more from the Ioun Stone; 24 DEX at level 9 for a +7 bonus.
Let's assume the character has a high BAB class from level 1 to level 9. At least one of these levels should be Barbarian (Hurler) to take advantage of the 10 foot bonus range on thrown weapons.
9 BAB + 7 DEX + 1 SIZE + 1 Weapon Focus (We'll assume the character has this) + 1 enhancement bonus (+1 Agile Dagger) = +19 attack with one dagger. Let's assume the character is using the TWF chain; so, now the attack bonus is just +17. On average, this goblin PC could hit a target with 28 AC 50% of the time with his first two attacks in the round when throwing all his daggers, and he'll hit with his third and fourth daggers about 25% of the time.
The damage dealt, assuming the goblin does not have any feats, special abilities, or anything besides the weapons' agile enchantments and +1 enhancement bonuses to add to damage, would be, per hit...
Main Hand: 1d3+8
Off Hand: 1d3+4
With feats and certain abilities (Precise Strike from the Swashbuckler, assuming it works when weapons are thrown; Weapon Specialization) you can put forth a little more damage. You could get Rapid Shot and use it with TWF I believe, meaning you'd get a further -2 penalty on all attacks (bringing you to +15 attack) but now have 6 attacks at level 9 (Rapid Shot affecting each dagger). I could be wrong on that rule, of course, but this would all be with a weapon with a range of 20 feet (due to Hurler). Suboptimal, I think, and definitely feat intensive, but still noteworthy and doable.
Thoughts? Ways to improve? Alternative means of accomplishing this? Weapons you'd suggest instead of daggers (Light Hammers for being bludgeoning has always stood out to me)? Different classes you'd suggest (Cavalier with Order of the Land for ranged attack bonus; Fighter for bonus feats; Ranger for free TWF and spells)?
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Brawler with Wushu darts is good for close combatant bonuses to damage on the thrown attacks. Also they get stand still as a bonus feat so if you have improved snap shot you can lock down anything that even gets close to you.
Another option that I am not sure is legal is a Dragoon fighter using Javelins. Javelins have a 30 range increment and are light weapons, so you should be able to put agile on them since you can use them in melee, albeit with a -4 penalty.
Speaking of non-standard weapons, Swashbuckler Finesse lets you finesse ANY one-handed Piercing weapon, even if it's not normally finesse-able. If that lets you put agile on the weapon, then Shortspears and Tridents become an option.
Javelins count as light weapons? My gut instinct tells me they'd count as one-handed weapons. I'm intrigued by that thought - where can I find the text that supports that? If I can get a halfling javelineer on a wolf with DEX to damage (no Swashbuckler, sadly), I'll be happy as a clam.
Alas, javelins are ranged weapons (even though they can be used in melee with the -4 penalty), not melee weapons. So no Agile property for them ;-)
That was my instinctive reason for picking daggers. The rules DO say that certain throwing weapons count as "light weapons" for the purpose of TWF, but that just applies to TWF.
Is there a way to throw usually unthrowable weapons without the -4 penalty, perhaps? The Throw Anything feat lets you use Improvised weapons, not manufactured weapons. I'd love to be able to chuck, say, Elven Curve Blades at my opponent (1d10 damage, two-handed, finessable), which would allow someone to focus on just chucking one big weapon as compared to chucking two weapons at once. Higher attack bonus, less total damage (I think).
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There is the Throwing enchantment, but that is a +1 level ability and totally not worth it. There is also a limitation on the blinkback belt that you can only attach two one handed or four light weapons.
Some other light weapons worth mentioning are the Starknife (S 20 ft range, d6 x3) and Dwarven Maulaxe (S/B, d6 x3)
There is the Throwing enchantment, but that is a +1 level ability and totally not worth it. There is also a limitation on the blinkback belt that you can only attach two one handed or four light weapons.
Some other light weapons worth mentioning are the Starknife (S 20 ft range, d6 x3) and Dwarven Maulaxe (S/B, d6 x3)
I was looking at both of those weapons earlier. The maulaxe is particularly fun looking, though I wish I didn't have to play a dwarf for it to be non-exotic. ...Though I COULD play a human with +2 DEX as his racial and get Exotic Wpn. Prof. at first level.
One question I want to ask you, Imbicatus:
Javelins have a 30 range increment and are light weapons, so you should be able to put agile on them since you can use them in melee, albeit with a -4 penalty.
I know I already asked this, but do you know where I can find supporting writing for this? A Dragoon Fighter looks like a near perfect fit for my concept (Irish-based light cavalry specializing in spears). I'll need to find that feat that gives you an animal companion as a Druid-3, of course, and then get Boon Companion, but I can make that work.
Warpriest is worth considering, yeah... That didn't dawn on me before. I'll have to give that one some serious thought; getting Agile on the thrown weapons would be a huge boon, of course, and TWF would still be a massive aid.
I looked for it, and it's not there. I could have sworn it was, but that may have been an issue where it was a house rule. Anyway, i can't find an official ruling for it.
That happens. I used to think that Ranged weapons counting as flanking was part of the rules for 3.5 and Pathfinder. Then I realized my table had been houseruling it the whole time without realizing it once I peeked at the Paizo boards. It doesn't help that certain D&D video games (*Cough* Neverwinter Nights 2 *Cough*) allow you to sneak attack opponents with ranged weapons from almost any conceivable angle so long as you have an ally engaged in melee combat with the target...
Okay. I have a more complete build. This isn't as powerful as it could be because of two decisions I made (I'm using this for an actual game):
1) Halfling instead of Goblin.
2) Throwing axes instead of Light Hammers (thus meaning less range).
That said, I think it's still a fun, mid-range character. I have 13 levels planned. The only gear I ever assume the character has (I start attack/damage calculations at level 9) is...
2 +1 Agile Throwing Axes, Blinkback Belt, Deep Red Sphere (Ioun Stone), Muleback Cords
The reason for having the two throwing axes should be obvious, as should the use of the belt and the Ioun Stone if the posts above this one have been read. The Muleback Cords are included simply so our theoretical halfling axe-thrower can carry a little bit of extra gear as he needs it, given he only has 10 strength naturally. Maybe he can get gloves of Ogre Power later or something to give him a boost, instead.
One thing I want to ask: If you're using Two-Weapon Fighting and have two Ranged Weapons (such as thrown weapons), does Rapid Shot give you an extra attack with each? I read the answer to this as 'yes,' because you're making a full attack using two ranged weapons. If you don't actually get Rapid Shot with each weapon, then this build could do without Rapid Shot, honestly.
Let's take a look at his statistics, levels, and feat selection.
STR: 10 (We'll get Muleback Cords ASAP)
DEX: 18 (22 by level 8; 20 natural, +2 from items)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Alternate Racial Traits: Adaptable Luck (You'll see why later), Fleet of Foot (so as to have 30 foot speed)
Level ... - ... Feat
1. Hurler (Barb) - Point Blank Shot
2. Lore Warden (Fig) - Weapon Focus
3. Lore Warden (Fig) - Sliding Axe Throw, Precise Shot, Combat Expertise
4. Lore Warden (Fig) - ...
5. Lore Warden (Fig) - Reckless Aim, Weapon Spec
6. Lore Warden (Fig) - ...
7. Lore Warden (Fig) - Quick Draw, Deadly Aim
8. Lore Warden (Fig) - ...
9. Lore Warden (Fig) - Agile Maneuvers, Rapid Shot
10. Lore Warden (Fig) - ...
11. Lore Warden (Fig) - TWF, Imp. TWF
12. Lore Warden (Fig) - ...
13. Lore Warden (Fig) - Greater Weapon Focus, Greater TWF
Now, I want to make a point about this build: The attack bonus is less than stellar, but can be increased by either not using Rapid Shot in a given round or not using Deadly Aim. Deadly Aim is a HUGE damage boost, so Rapid Shot should be the feat to be shelved if necessary. However, the damage potential from the use of both feats is phenomenal.
I calculated the attack bonuses looking only at the highest BAB attacks given that TWF, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim were all in use. Obviously the attacks other than the first four in a strong of Rapid Shot TWF attacks will have lower attack bonus... but you still get four attacks at the bonus listed for levels 11 and 13. For level 9, you don't have TWF yet and thus don't need to worry.
* * * * *
Attack Bonuses
+9 BAB
+1 Size
+6 DEX
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot (you will almost always have this)
+2 Reckless Aim (-1 AC, +2 attack... and a chance to hit allies on a Natural 1. WHOOPS, but that's why we took the Adaptable Luck racial trait)
-2 Rapid Shot
-3 Deadly Aim
-----------------------
+17 Attack (3 attacks total, 2 at highest BAB)
Damage
1d4
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+6 DEX
+2 Weapon Spec
+1 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot
+6 Deadly Aim
-----------------------
1d4+17 Main Hand (and only hand right now)
Attack Bonuses
+11 BAB
+1 Size
+6 DEX
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot (you will almost always have this)
+2 Reckless Aim (-1 AC, +2 attack... and a chance to hit allies on a Natural 1. WHOOPS, but that's why we took the Adaptable Luck racial trait)
-2 Rapid Shot
-3 Deadly Aim
-2 Two-Weapon Fighting
-----------------------
+18 Attack (7 attacks total, 4 at highest BAB)
Damage
1d4
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+6 DEX
+2 Weapon Spec
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot
+6 Deadly Aim
-----------------------
1d4+18 Main Hand
1d4+15 Off-Hand
Attack Bonuses
+13 BAB
+1 Size
+6 DEX
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+2 Weapon Focus, Greater
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot (you will almost always have this)
+2 Reckless Aim (-1 AC, +2 attack... and a chance to hit allies on a Natural 1. WHOOPS, but that's why we took the Adaptable Luck racial trait)
-2 Rapid Shot
-4 Deadly Aim
-2 Two-Weapon Fighting
-----------------------
+20 Attack (8 attacks total, 4 at highest BAB)
Damage
1d4
+1 Enhancement (Weapon)
+6 DEX
+2 Weapon Spec
+2 Weapon Training
+1 Point Blank Shot
+8 Deadly Aim
-----------------------
1d4+20 Main Hand
1d4+17 Off-Hand
Now, there's one part of the build I haven't talked about yet: Sliding Axe Throw. What does this do? Take a look.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –2 penalty on a ranged attack roll with an axe, bouncing it or sliding it along the ground. If the target is flat-footed, running, or charging, this attack ignores any bonuses to the target’s AC from its shield. If the attack hits, you may immediately make a trip attempt against the target as a free action. If you fail to trip your opponent, your opponent does not get an attempt to trip you in return.
This ability may not work in certain circumstances as determined by the GM, such as if the ground is soft, there is an obstacle or difficult terrain on the floor between you and your target, and so on.
So, you reduce your attack a little lower. Okay, that's not good, but at least you have a lot of attacks. But now, if you hit, you get a free trip attempt - free - with any given attack you wish to use, so long as you reduce the attack roll by 2 before rolling the die. Combine that with Agile Maneuvers and the Lore Warden's free +2 to CMB and you have a decent chance of knocking something around your size over.
If you don't want Rapid Shot or Sliding Axe Throw, you can pick up different feats instead. Point Blank Master would be very nice, simply so you could stand in front of someone and shoot... or you could get Weapon Finesse, or both.
I would consider Nature Soul and Animal Ally so as to have a mount that levels as you do; picking a Giant Chameleon would allow you to move at your mount's base speed and full attack, and the chameleon has a climb speed, so you could go up a wall or tree and hurl axes down at the peons below who can't reach you.
Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Ways to improve?
AFAIK, you can't actually throw manufactured weapons as improvised weapons. You take a -4 penalty when throwing them, but they are still manufactured weapons; they're just not good for being thrown at all. Or that's how I think it's meant to be ruled, though I could be wrong. Using the shovel in that fashion sounds hilarious, though.
The downside to using an Alchemist would be Medium BAB. Medium and low BAB need to be avoided with any TWF build, unless you're just dipping; and in this case, we have TWF and Rapid Shot. Our attack bonuses are pretty uncertain as it is. Poison would be very nice to have, though...
I'm pretty sure you can TWF with thrown weapons; at least it's a common thing that players do do. (heh heh, doodoo. ^__^) I'm not even clear if you actually need a second weapon if you have a blink back belt, as you're drawing and throwing, drawing and throwing, just using both hands instead of one.
I was going to suggest using chakra, but I checked and they aren't melee weapons either.
Mostly, I just want to voice my displeasure at how hard it is to get a good throwing build going. The blink-back belt helps, but it limits you to a pretty pure throwing build. If you pause to melee for more than a single round, the blinkback cycle is interrupted and you have to pause to put your weapons back on your belt.
It's only slightly less frustrating than trying to get serious use out of a crossbow or sling or really anything that isn't a composite longbow.
Oh, you can definitely TWF thrown weapons. My current question is if Rapid Shot would apply to both weapons.
Yeah, the Chakram is an awesome weapon - but since it's not technically a melee weapon, it's a no-go here.
I agree; it's really hard to get a good throwing build going. I HAVE seen a few impressive ones, but they're all Strength based. I've been infatuated with trying to use DEX properly in a thrown build of late, as you can probably see in my latest build.
It's only slightly less frustrating than trying to get serious use out of a crossbow or sling or really anything that isn't a composite longbow.
Ugh. Yeah. Yeah... I had to deviate from making a mounted horseman using thrown weapons to this present build just to be competitive (though if I drop Rapid Shot and the Axe-specific feat I can manage it). I may go back and just make a cavalry archer instead some time...
Oh, you can definitely TWF thrown weapons. My current question is if Rapid Shot would apply to both weapons.It would not. It's a -2 to all attacks for one extra attack, it's additive not multiplicative.
Curses. So, if we remove Rapid Shot we're back to 6 attacks per round. If we keep it we're stuck with 7. Only 3 attacks per round will be made at the highest AB with Rapid Shot.
Do you think that would be worth it?
But Shuriken can't be Agile weapons. We're back to square one.
The problem is the build needs weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse, and that excludes a lot of the really good ranged weapons: Chakra, shuriken, javelins... Some of them can be used in melee, but count as one-handed weapons; others can't be used in melee at all, such as the shuriken.
So, whatever weapons and their related feats/abilities are proposed, they need to be finessable and they need to be throwable. And we want to avoid the -4 penalty for using a weapon improperly if we can (I.E.: Chucking a shortsword at someone).
If it can't be used with Weapon Finesse, it can't get Agile. If it lacks Agile, it lacks full DEX to damage. Full DEX to damage is beautiful and wonderful in every way for a DEX ranged character.
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Speaking of non-standard weapons, Swashbuckler Finesse lets you finesse ANY one-handed Piercing weapon, even if it's not normally finesse-able. If that lets you put agile on the weapon, then Shortspears and Tridents become an option.
"Did you throw a Trident?"
"Yeah! There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a Trident." -Anchorman