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I've been seeing a lot of odd threads lately on subjects such as...
...seeking help for problems that, well, aren't problems at all.
What the heck is going on? What has changed in peoples' perceptions that these could ever be considered problems rather than FEATURES OF THE GAME?
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Kids these days..with all their options..and powers, and templates..and ultimate this and that!
In my day we had THACO and we were happy... :)
The fora are not representative of real life, and you seem to think four bad threads are an epidemic. No one makes a thread to say that their party is doing just fine. They don't bother to make a thread unless they have some sort of problem, and statistically, half of those threads are guaranteed to have been made by people of below-average intelligence who don't understand what is and is not a problem.
EDIT: I have made myself a liar regarding my second statement.
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Back in my day we faced 5-50 sahaugin with nothing but our linen shirts and farm tools.
Farm tools..bah..we only had old mushy turnips and dirt clods!
The fora are not representative of real life, and you seem to think four bad threads are an epidemic. No one makes a thread to say that their party is doing just fine. They don't bother to make a thread unless they have some sort of problem, and statistically, half of those threads are guaranteed to have been made by people of below-average intelligence who don't understand what is and is not a problem.
You're 100% wrong about the way statistics work. And rude.
Edit: Damn! Ninja'd by an edit! :P
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Most of these complaints are genuine (albeit well-known) problems when explained correctly, eg:
We have a poorly optimized rogue, an optimized fighter and a couple of battlefield controllers, and the fighter makes the rogue seem useless in combat.
or
Power creep from new books makes old APs seem too easy.
or
Game balance seems to fall apart at high level play.
or
There is a PC with unhittable AC - any sensible enemy would retreat immediately.
or
My ultimate boss fights are over anticlimactically in six seconds.
Wave your cane at them and maybe they'll get off your lawn.
Ooo...does the cane separate into two swords? is he going to take levels in monk?
Anyway....
The fora are not representative of real life, and you seem to think four bad threads are an epidemic. No one makes a thread to say that their party is doing just fine. They don't bother to make a thread unless they have some sort of problem, and statistically, half of those threads are guaranteed to have been made by people of below-average intelligence who don't understand what is and is not a problem.
EDIT: I have made myself a liar regarding my second statement.
Well, I wouldn't quite insult intelligence as a sweeping generalization, I will admit that people asking for help are less likely to have a lot of system mastery as well as reliable help from someone that does. Also, if they have stuck around the fora long enough, they will likely get pumped up by all the 'fighters/monks/rogues/anything that is not a full caster or archer sucks' threads. So when one of the players pulls out a decent build and plays it well, then the false expectations that have been made are shattered.
only the high land orc turnips were weaponizable though.
KODT was one of my favs...but nothing beat Wormy
It seems to me like people are getting to a point where they are complaining just for the sheer sake of complaining, and about things that don't make sense what's more.
To me, many of the recent threads are akin to complaining that the sky is blue--as if there was anything wrong with the sky being blue.
THE SKY IS YELLOW AND THE SUN IS BLUE!
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It seems to me like people are getting to a point where they are complaining just for the sheer sake of complaining, and about things that don't make sense what's more.
I have heard of the pot calling the kettle black, but this takes the cake. Ravingdork, you're complaining about "people complaining just for the sheer sake of complaining"? ;-)
This would be like me telling people that grognard cred is meaningless.
I've been seeing a lot of odd threads lately on subjects such as...
...seeking help for problems that, well, aren't problems at all.
What the heck is going on? What has changed in peoples' perceptions that these could ever be considered problems rather than FEATURES OF THE GAME?
I firmly believe the MMORPG mentality of “everyone must be absolutely equal” is a large contributor to this problem.
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I've been seeing a lot of odd threads lately on subjects such as...
...seeking help for problems that, well, aren't problems at all.
What the heck is going on? What has changed in peoples' perceptions that these could ever be considered problems rather than FEATURES OF THE GAME?
Remember when you were a new player and did not know the game really well and did not have years of experience playing? Yeah well you posted questions and stuff too that some folks may have said 'WHA?!' to also.
Frankly, all of use probably have in our time on the boards.
How else do you think you managed to rack up 14,728 posts on these boards?
Try to keep perspective.
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I've been seeing a lot of odd threads lately on subjects such as...
...seeking help for problems that, well, aren't problems at all.
What the heck is going on? What has changed in peoples' perceptions that these could ever be considered problems rather than FEATURES OF THE GAME?
How else do you think you managed to rack up 14,728 posts on these boards?
Trolling... and cake. BAM!
I think the only thing I ever screwed up on as a new player was thinking that druids had to choose their wildshape forms--and were stuck with those specific forms (ie, one small form, one medium, one elemental, etc.).
Aside from that, I read the rules like a good gamer and have always demonstrated a fine understanding of how the game works.
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The hobby is growing. More and more players are finding Pathfinder. A lot of the players are young and/or inexperienced when it comes to pencil and paper RPGs.
There are going to be more of these types of threads, not less, in the coming months. That's okay. It's not fun, but the responses to these threads are necessary for the continued growth and enjoyment of what we love to do, and that's to play pencil & paper RPGs with our friends.
The older and/or more experienced folks need to provide guidance and answers with patience and clarity. They need to set the example.
In the case of some of the threads above, it would be best to help the GM/player understand the goals of our shared hobby, rather than provide them with mechanical examples on how to win the game.
Mechanics are great, but abusing them becomes a less frequent occurrence when good examples are set on how to be a good player/GM/ambassador of our hobby.
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I think the only thing I ever screwed up on as a new player was thinking that druids had to choose their wildshape forms--and were stuck with those specific forms (ie, one small form, one medium, one elemental, etc.).
Aside from that, I read the rules like a good gamer and have always demonstrated a fine understanding of how the game works.
If that's true, fine. I think it's missing the point of Gilfalas' post. The reason people post on these topics is because they're confused and/or want help. People learn stuff at different rates.
What is the point of this thread? The only thing I can see it accomplishing is making people (especially newer players) uncomfortable asking questions for fear of looking naive/foolish. I hope that's not your intent.
If not, what is it?
My intent was to try and find understanding in the thought processes behind some of those threads. Like the aforementioned new players, I'm just confused is all.
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I think the only thing I ever screwed up on as a new player was thinking that druids had to choose their wildshape forms--and were stuck with those specific forms (ie, one small form, one medium, one elemental, etc.).
Aside from that, I read the rules like a good gamer and have always demonstrated a fine understanding of how the game works.
If that's true, fine. I think it's missing the point of Gilfalas' post. The reason people post on these topics is because they're confused and/or want help. People learn stuff at different rates.
What is the point of this thread? The only thing I can see it accomplishing is making people (especially newer players) uncomfortable asking questions for fear of looking naive/foolish. I hope that's not your intent.
If not, what is it?
Exactly my point Daethor, thank you. No offense to RD but the post reminded me of the whole 'Leet/n00b' attitude I have seen grow up in gaming over the last 20 years.
As if somehow someone who has a lot of experience and knowledge in a game is somehow inherently and fundamentally better then someone with less experience and knowledge.
Some take that attitude to denigrate the 'n00bs' and some just become insensitive to the fact that new people are new, just like everyone of us was at some point and maybe calling them on it is of no use or benefit to anyone.
I have been gaming since late 1979 with D&D/Pathfinder being my primary game of choice but tons of other RPG's and table top games of all sorts as well but I still semi regularly post to message boards asking questions and clarifications for games I play.
New rules, new classes, new options, 30 years of old rules classes and option that can cloud the correct memory of changes by the new rules, classes and options make remembering everything correctly frankly impossible. Let alone learning this HUGE game brand new from the start.
I had people teach me when I first played which helped immensely. I cannot fathom diving into the game today blind with no one to explain the terms and basic assumptions we have learned and taken for granted, let alone actually reading and retaing all the information in the core rules alone.
NO ONE is perfect. NO ONE.
My intent was to try and find understanding in the thought processes behind some of those threads. Like the aforementioned new players, I'm just confused is all.
1) Could be a group of new players all learning the game for the first time.
2) Could be experienced but not verteran players who are confused on a topic. Given the massive amount of 'Does it work this way..' generally posted to the boards that would not seem unlikely.3) If these players are used to just console/computer or Online MMO games, table top games and some of their assumptions and standards would be new to them.
Example:
While they all could use the term Tank for a very highly armored resilient character, the ones from MMO's could assume some sort of mechanic would exist to make monsters prefer them. When they don't come across one in the table top game they could be confused about how things work.
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My intent was to try and find understanding in the thought processes behind some of those threads. Like the aforementioned new players, I'm just confused is all.
No. No you're not. You have started many threads which left many of us scratching out heads over the OP's "thought processes". And you know that damn well . Stop being disingenuous.
You're smart, you're imaginative, so stop being cute & coy.
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I have heard of the pot calling the kettle black, but this takes the cake. Ravingdork, you're complaining about "people complaining just for the sheer sake of complaining"? ;-)
This would be like me telling people that grognard cred is meaningless.
Agreed and seconded. The op has started many similar threads to the on he i complaining about. Now that others do the same it seems to bother him. I dont get posters here sometimes.
Remember when you were a new player and did not know the game really well and did not have years of experience playing? Yeah well you posted questions and stuff too that some folks may have said 'WHA?!' to also.
Unfortunately when I started playing RPGs there was no message board for it, in fact no internet to host a message board, and hardly such thing as personal computers. OK the TRS-80 existed and maybe the Commodore 64, but most people weren't using such devices in their D&D games in 1977...
So I learned like everyone else at the time, read the books and in-game experience at the table. We didn't have any interwebz, and get those kids off my lawn (I say waving my cane wildly about...)
I can remember when on my Dad's TRS-80 computer, there was no such thing as RAM per se, all your hard-drive and RAM was a cassette tape, (this was before even the giant floppy disks) although I did have access to a 1200 baud modem...
Who is denigrating anybody here? I've not demeaned anyone's gaming style or even made any references at all to new players.
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.
Unfortunately when I started playing RPGs there was no message board for it, in fact no internet to host a message board, and hardly such thing as personal computers. OK the TRS-80 existed and maybe the Commodore 64, but most people weren't using such devices in their D&D games in 1977...
So I learned like everyone else at the time, read the books and in-game experience at the table. We didn't have any interwebz, and get those kids off my lawn (I say waving my cane wildly about...)
So did I. I started in 1979.
But I bet you had questions when you started. And asked them. My point was it does not matter what medium you used, everyone at some point has questions about this hobby and is entitled to ask them, even if we feel the question, to us, is hackneyed, simple, whatever.
I have always tried to keep in mind that being helpful is better than pretty much any other alternative.
I have always tried to keep in mind that being helpful is better than pretty much any other alternative.
As do I.
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I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.
Or we just have a certain amount of experience with your threads.
We're like level 15 now.
Keep 'em in the dark, I say, how is a control freak DM going to 'win' if the players actually know what's going on...?
[Yes, of course, one answers such questions - didn't you see the 'tongue in cheek' nature of my post?]
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.Or we just have a certain amount of experience with your threads.
We're like level 15 now.
You only have 2,281 posts. You're only 2nd level or so. ;P
Keep 'em in the dark, I say, how is a control freak DM going to 'win' if the players actually know what's going on...?
[Yes, of course, one answers such questions - didn't you see the 'tongue in cheek' nature of my post?]
You were so spoiled back then though. 1200 baud? Blistering fast. I had a 30 baud if I remember correctly and I LIKED IT!
;)
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Seems to be a very simple phenomenon to me. We think in terms of our experiences/observations. So when new DM's (or even DM's who ran games under an older paradigm) think of fantasy games, they naturally think of fantasy literature and movies.
You won't find much of what happens in a modern game of PF in a fantasy movie or in fantasy literature. There's a whole slew of reasons for that, but it leaves the DM without any recourse as to how the game should be run. In their mind, because it isn't matching up to their experiences/observations, something has gone wrong and they naturally come to where people who play the game congregate, seeking help.
There they have to learn a whole litany of new terms/phrases/meanings/suppositions. 'Optimizing' (read: min/max'ing to any old gamer who started pre-3.0 and for those of us who started in 2E, the Cardinal Sin of gaming, we were told), 'Action Economy', 'Control Freak DMing', 'Sandbox', 'Railroad', 'Build', 'System Mastery'...the list goes on and on.
What I find surprising is that people find that other people need this help...well...surprising. Now, naturally you've got some people just out to stir up trouble and whatnot, but I consider them the outlier. I think most people writing these types of threads to simply be trying to match up expectation and reality and trying to discover where to go from there, often without the vocabulary that has been born over the years to deal with those very same concepts and problems.
Keep 'em in the dark, I say, how is a control freak DM going to 'win' if the players actually know what's going on...?
[Yes, of course, one answers such questions - didn't you see the 'tongue in cheek' nature of my post?]
You were so spoiled back then though. 1200 baud? Blistering fast. I had a 30 baud if I remember correctly and I LIKED IT!
;)
My Dad, using the large floppy drives, connected 12 of them in series, and for the year that he did it, he had the largest storage available on any home PC (in the Midwest anyway). I remember my Dad getting calls from personal computer users across the Midwest asking about this powerful innovation!
Also, he called some tiny (hardly known) company called Microsoft to complain about issues using FoxPro 1.0, and spent an hour talking to some guy named Bill Gates. Bill asked if he'd be interested in testing software for his company, and my Dad turned him down...
That makes sense, Apotheosis.
You only have 2,281 posts. You're only 2nd level or so. ;P
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.Or we just have a certain amount of experience with your threads.
We're like level 15 now.
I only have 1222 posts. But frankly I think that is a lot. I have only been on this sight for about 6 years but that still averages out to a post ~every other day. I hope my signal to noise ratio has been good though.
Do we only get to count our posts for XP or can we grandfather in our pre Pathfinder gaming history as well.
By the way if your curious, 14728 posts averages 6.7 posts a day, every day, for 6 straight years.
You must type like the wind itself.
You only have 2,281 posts. You're only 2nd level or so. ;P
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.Or we just have a certain amount of experience with your threads.
We're like level 15 now.
Trust me, kid, you're just another newb, post count or no. Get off my lawn!
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.
You mean you were being cute/coy and/or disingenuous? No- say it ain't so!
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In the old days when D&D was young, the attitude that many/most DM's had was that they were in an antagonistic conflict with the players, and it was their job to mop the floor with the broken corpses of said players' characters. The threads the OP is troubled by seem to be of that variety. If you're working from the standard present-day expectation that the DM exists to facilitate the game and that her goal shouldn't be a constant stream of player deaths, then Ravingdork's concern makes perfect sense: the posters of these threads are misunderstanding what the game should look like. Most of the time the PC's are *supposed* to destroy the monsters; that not a bug, it's a feature. But if you were approaching the game with the old-school mentality, you might well feel you weren't doing it right if the players walked away from encounter after encounter unscathed.
Solution: explain to new DM's how the role has evolved, and that a high body count is no longer a necessary element of DM cred.
My intent was to try and find understanding in the thought processes behind some of those threads. Like the aforementioned new players, I'm just confused is all.
I think it just points to the broad church that is the paizo fan base. I used to find it odd that there were people who'd ask how class abilities work. We all post here for different reasons so we're going to ask different kinds of questions and get involved in different kinds of threads.
You mean you were being cute/coy and/or disingenuous? No- say it ain't so!
I strongly suspect that many of you are jumping to conclusions about my opening post.
No, I just think that the tone of my opening post is being misinterpreted.
In the old days when D&D was young, the attitude that many/most DM's had was that they were in an antagonistic conflict with the players, and it was their job to mop the floor with the broken corpses of said players' characters. The threads the OP is troubled by seem to be of that variety. If you're working from the standard present-day expectation that the DM exists to facilitate the game and that her goal shouldn't be a constant stream of player deaths, then Ravingdork's concern makes perfect sense: the posters of these threads are misunderstanding what the game should look like. Most of the time the PC's are *supposed* to destroy the monsters; that not a bug, it's a feature. But if you were approaching the game with the old-school mentality, you might well feel you weren't doing it right if the players walked away from encounter after encounter unscathed.
Solution: explain to new DM's how the role has evolved, and that a high body count is no longer a necessary element of DM cred.
That's not too far off from what I was looking for. Thanks.
Actually I don't think 1e games were about wiping the floor with PCs from a GM's point of view, rather the system run normally was the PC killer having nothing to do with the GM. I remember one newbie player just couldn't seem to live past 7th level. I was hoping beyond hope that that player could live long enough to appreciate the higher class features, beyond 7th level, but his PC always died somewhere at that level - having nothing to do with specific adventures, or killer GMs. It's just the way the game ran.
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I was one of those Old school DMs.before Polyhedron dice, and we drew numbered chits from a mug.
I would not say antagonistic DMs were the standard so much as indifferent DMs were...just let the chits draw as they may sorts.
I killed my share of players, but also fudged the dice a few times when it was needed...but I do feel some of the edginess of PC mortality has been removed in the intervening years.
But...
I do remember less inparty fighting in those days..well before 3.0 and such (which I really loved , 3.0 that is)
Maybe due to the harsher nature of the game, players had to work together more and squabble less, since the game encouraged a more indifferent stance to their well being.
Likely its just me getting old :)
But, they did make Tomb of Horrors...that thing killed more people than the plague. :)
This forum helps people out all the time, including myself.
Sometimes players need confirmation that these perceived oddities ARE, in fact, features of the game.
Sometimes players need help dealing with issues that prohibit the enjoyment within their games.
Sometimes players need to know the best way to handle players power-gaming the division of plunder in their S&S game ;)
Most of these complaints are genuine (albeit well-known) problems when explained correctly
If it isn't what Cleanthes mentioned, it is often this.
I was one of those Old school DMs.before Polyhedron dice, and we drew numbered chits from a mug.
I would not say antagonistic DMs were the standard so much as indifferent DMs were...just let the chits draw as they may sorts.I killed my share of players, but also fudged the dice a few times when it was needed...but I do feel some of the edginess of PC mortality has been removed in the intervening years.
But...
I do remember less inparty fighting in those days..well before 3.0 and such (which I really loved , 3.0 that is)
Maybe due to the harsher nature of the game, players had to work together more and squabble less, since the game encouraged a more indifferent stance to their well being.
Likely its just me getting old :)
But, they did make Tomb of Horrors...that thing killed more people than the plague. :)
Yeah, I'm sure there was a range of DM-ing styles in those days too. But I ran into player-antagonist DM's a lot more then than I do now.
And Tomb of Horrors truly was terrifying. Those hideous words: "no save allowed". I just don't think you can get the same feel with updates of the module to current rulesets, where you can escape the traps with a simple Disable Device check, and you get a save for almost *everything*. Can still be fun, maybe, but finishing it just isn't the same achievement.