Health care in the U.S.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

The latest news is: He probably had a heart attack up to three years ago and never even noticed, which, apparently, isn't uncommon with diabetics; he had a stroke up to three days before he got into the car accident; my mother is suffering from all kinds of guilt because she didn't notice any difference in his behavior (how could she? all he does is come home, sit in the lazy boy and watch ESPN) even though his co-workers and his friends at the gun club did; his blood sugar levels upon admittance were somewhere in the 500-600 level which means nothing to me, but someone healthy blood sugar levels are way down between 50-120 or something.

Most amusing conversation thus far was when my mother started crying because she thought it was her fault because she nagged him to take his meds too much which caused him to ignore her and stop taking his meds. My mother's superpower is to think that everything is her fault.

Quite common among mothers, I heard. Not restricted to the goblinoid ones.

My best wishes to your pop (if you will have them).


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I'll take all the best wishes I can get, thank you Camarade.

Good news is: crisis is over. He was home for less than 12 hours before he demanded to be dropped off at the gun club. Apparently, nothing says "speedy recovery" like the soothing sound of shotguns firing sequentially.

Huzzah!

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do Canadians get free dental coverage too?

Liberty's Edge

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I'll take all the best wishes I can get, thank you Camarade.

Good news is: crisis is over. He was home for less than 12 hours before he demanded to be dropped off at the gun club. Apparently, nothing says "speedy recovery" like the soothing sound of shotguns firing sequentially.

Huzzah!

Yay!

Soothing shotguns, though? Hmmm.


Yakman wrote:
Do Canadians get free dental coverage too?

Nope. That's covered under regular insurance.


Spent 5 hours at the ER of a VA Hospital yesterday, being treated for an infection in my arm. Due to my income level, I didn't have to pull out any form of payment for anything.

Since I've basically been in one military system or another all my adult life, it's hard for me to imagine the stress that it adds when you're sitting on a hospital bed imagining how this will cost you money too. The pain of having a needle shoved in my arm and purposely scrapping the bone was enough to deal with.


:(


Talking about healthcare....anybody watched Michael Moore's Sicko?


I had that misfortune.
Interviews with Cubans about how Moore misrepresented Cuban health care.


I find the conclusion of that article slightly misrepresenting of the situation as well. Despite being cut off from supplies of drugs and new equipment and being in an economy that has basically floundered for 50 years, they're still ranked 39th compared to the US which is 37th.

They might not be better than us (and what is shown in the movie obviously exaggerates and shows the absolute best), but that they're barely worse despite circumstances is telling.


Michael Moore is an embarrassment to the left.


He's no Rush Limbaugh though (neither in political influence or morals).


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I'm pretty sure Limbaugh leaves the radio studio, puts on glasses and a hat, and turns into Michael Moore as his alter ego.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm pretty sure Limbaugh leaves the radio studio, puts on glasses and a hat, and turns into Michael Moore as his alter ego.

Does that mean he uses a phone booth for the reverse transformation?

Ye gods, please no tight lycra :(


I don't think he can fit in a phone booth -- in either identity.
That said, I don't think there's such a thing as "phone booths" anymore anyway -- we're seriously dating ourselves here. Next we'll start talking about elevator attendants, or smoking sections on planes...


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Kirth Gersen wrote:

I don't think he can fit in a phone booth -- in either identity.

That said, I don't think there's such a thing as "phone booths" anymore anyway -- we're seriously dating ourselves here. Next we'll start talking about elevator attendants, or smoking sections on planes...

You're right :( I may need to step away from the keyboard for a bit and put a nice soothing record onto the turntable.


Irontruth wrote:

I find the conclusion of that article slightly misrepresenting of the situation as well. Despite being cut off from supplies of drugs and new equipment and being in an economy that has basically floundered for 50 years, they're still ranked 39th compared to the US which is 37th.

They might not be better than us (and what is shown in the movie obviously exaggerates and shows the absolute best), but that they're barely worse despite circumstances is telling.

Agreed. There's more going on there, I think. Moreover, getting people who have fled Cuba for Florida to be quoted in the article is really telling.


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Matt Thomason wrote:
I may need to step away from the keyboard for a bit and put a nice soothing record onto the turntable.

True story -- back when I taught high school school, I had a record player in my classroom. One morning the kids were all gathered around it trying to figure out what it was. One kid said, "That's easy! It's a instrument; it makes a noise like, Whip-a-whap!"

When I explained its actual function, one girl (who will doubtless become an award-winning engineer) pointed at the needle and said, "This must be where the laser came out, then."


Freehold DM wrote:
Moreover, getting people who have fled Cuba for Florida to be quoted in the article is really telling.

Not so much as you'd think, given that (a) it's not really kosher to just pop over to Cuba to ask people there; and (b) this is probably an absurd exaggeration, but someone once told me there may be more Cubans in Miami now than in Havana anyway*.

*EDIT: OK, with 2M people in Havana and only 0.5M in Miami, this is evidently an exaggeration on the scale of Irish myth.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Moreover, getting people who have fled Cuba for Florida to be quoted in the article is really telling.
Not so much as you'd think, given that (a) it's not really kosher to just pop over to Cuba to ask people there; and (b) this is probably an absurd exaggeration, but someone once told me there may be more Cubans in Miami now than in Havana anyway*.

Yes, but people who've fled the Cuba regime (and their children) might not be exactly the most unbiased sources.


New England Journal of Medicine: A Different Model — Medical Care in Cuba

Defend and extend the social gains of the Cuban Revolution!

For workers political revolution in Cuba to oust the Castroite bureaucracy! For international proletarian socialist revolution in the rest of the hemisphere!

For free, quality health care for all!

Down with clueless kids who don't know what record players are!

Vive le Galt!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Matt Thomason wrote:
I may need to step away from the keyboard for a bit and put a nice soothing record onto the turntable.

True story -- back when I taught high school school, I had a record player in my classroom. One morning the kids were all gathered around it trying to figure out what it was. One kid said, "That's easy! It's a instrument; it makes a noise like, Whip-a-whap!"

When I explained its actual function, one girl (who will doubtless become an award-winning engineer) pointed at the needle and said, "This must be where the laser came out, then."

Not sure whether to laugh or weep :)


I gave up on Michael Moore during his second teevee show; I forget what they were called. I liked Roger and Me and I liked a bunch of stuff he did on his shows, but, after awhile, I was like, "Dude, I get it, you run around and annoy receptionists and security guards." Don't think I saw anything after that, except his cameo appearance in Team America, which I greatly enjoyed.

Hmm, I wonder...

Yup.

Well, he hired a Teamster, I'll give him that.


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I still remember when math teachers used to say "you might not always have a calculator with you".


Roger and Me was a great movie. I thought Bowling for Columbine was pretty good as well.


When something is free, you get what you pay for.

Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money. It has been like that for a long time, it is illegal for hospitals to turn away patients regardless of ability to pay.

But it is only free for them as the cost is then passed along to all of the paying patients who then must pay astronomically higher prices.

This in turn encourages people who pay to get insurance. Unfortunately, the government then says it is not fair that some people have insurance while others don't and passes laws to make insurance more expensive and adds taxes to pay for the whole thing.

Thus once again healthcare is still free for people with no money but people who actually pay for their care must pay much much more.

That is how healthcare works in America.


Mike Franke wrote:
Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money.

It's only free in the sense that you can refuse to pay for it. They still send you the bill, and they'll still go through collections to get their money, and they'll still garnish your wages if you continue to refuse to pay. Not being able to turn someone away is not the same as giving it away for free.

Heck, by this logic food is free. Just go to a restaurant and skip out on the bill!


Mike Franke wrote:

When something is free, you get what you pay for.

Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money. It has been like that for a long time, it is illegal for hospitals to turn away patients regardless of ability to pay.

But it is only free for them as the cost is then passed along to all of the paying patients who then must pay astronomically higher prices.

This in turn encourages people who pay to get insurance. Unfortunately, the government then says it is not fair that some people have insurance while others don't and passes laws to make insurance more expensive and adds taxes to pay for the whole thing.

Thus once again healthcare is still free for people with no money but people who actually pay for their care must pay much much more.

That is how healthcare works in America.

Also, only certain types of emergency care are free when you show up to the emergency room. They have to stabilize you and deal with the immediate problem enough to ship you out the door. OK for things like broken bones (though you won't get any physical therapy or prosthetics), but useless for a lot of diseases. They'll diagnose you and write you a prescription, perhaps, but you can't fill the prescription for free, so that doesn't help a lot.

And using the emergency room is the most expensive way for the hospital to provide care. A complete waste when people are using it for non-emergency needs because it's the only place they won't be turned away if they can't pay.


About Universal Healthcare in other countries like France and Japan. Do the French and Japanese pay higher taxes for universal healthcare?


Abyssal Lord wrote:

About Universal Healthcare in other countries like France and Japan. Do the French and Japanese pay higher taxes for universal healthcare?

I know finances can be weird in japan, no idea about France.

Dark Archive

Abyssal Lord wrote:
About Universal Healthcare in other countries like France and Japan. Do the French and Japanese pay higher taxes for universal healthcare?

A quick look at wikipedia (not the most reliable of sources, but not a bad one either) for countries by health insurance coverage and countries by tax rates shows ;

Table 1:
Country -------- Healthcare Cover ---- Tax (Min/Max)

Australia ----------- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/46.50%
Canada ------------ 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/50.00%
Czech Republic --- 100.00 ------------ 15.00%/22.00%
Denmark ----------- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/51.70%
Finland ------------- 100.00 ------------ 22.50%/51.00%
Greece ------------- 100.00 ------------ 22.00%/42.00%
Hungary ----------- 100.00 ------------ 16.00%/16.00%
Ireland ------------ 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/41.00%
Israel -------------- 100.00 ------------ 11.50%/52.00%
Italy ---------------- 100.00 ------------ 23.00%/43.00%
Japan -------------- 100.00 ------------ 05.00%/50.00%
Korea, South ----- 100.00 ------------ 06.60%/41.80%
New Zealand ----- 100.00 ------------ 10.50%/33.00%
Norway ------------ 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/47.80%
Portugal ----------- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/54.00%
Slovenia ----------- 100.00 ------------ 16.00%/41.00%
Sweden ------------ 100.00 ------------ 28.89%/57.00%
Switzerland ------- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/13.20%
United Kingdom -- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/45.00%
Iceland ------------- 100.00 ------------ 00.00%/46.00%
United States ------ 84.90 ------------ 00.00%/55.90%

that, no, not necessarily. There's no breakdown of government expenses here, but countries with more universal healthcare do not appear to have higher tax rates than the most common comparator country for not possessing universal healthcare. In fact, only 1 country with full healthcare coverage surpasses the US' highest tax rate for an individual, and 9 match it for its lowest tax rate.

Perhaps you find Wikipedia too unreliable/untrustworthy though. How about KPMG, one of the largest professional services companies in the world and one of the Big Four auditors, along with Deloitte, Ernst & Young (EY) and PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC)? Source

Table 2:
Country -------- Healthcare Cover ---- Tax (Average)

Australia ----------- 100.00 ------------ 45.00%
Canada ------------ 100.00 ------------ 29.00%
Czech Republic --- 100.00 ------------ 22.00%
Denmark ----------- 100.00 ------------ 55.56%
Finland ------------- 100.00 ------------ 51.25%
Greece ------------- 100.00 ------------ 42.00%
Hungary ----------- 100.00 ------------ 16.00%
Ireland ------------ 100.00 ------------ 48.00%
Israel -------------- 100.00 ------------ 50.00%
Italy ---------------- 100.00 ------------ 43.00%
Japan -------------- 100.00 ------------ 50.84%
Korea, South ----- 100.00 ------------ 38.00%
New Zealand ----- 100.00 ------------ 33.00%
Norway ------------ 100.00 ------------ 47.20%
Portugal ----------- 100.00 ------------ 48.00%
Slovenia ----------- 100.00 ------------ 20.00%
Sweden ------------ 100.00 ------------ 57.00%
Switzerland ------- 100.00 ------------ 40.00%
United Kingdom -- 100.00 ------------ 45.00%
Iceland ------------- 100.00 ------------ 46.22%
United States ------ 84.90 ------------ 39.60%

From this, 14 countries have higher average individual tax rates than the US, while 6 have lower. More evidence for universal healthcare = higher taxes, but a far cry from conclusive. Without a breakdown of each countries' expenses, or a breakdown of where each tax $/€/£ goes, it's near impossible to say for certain.


thejeff wrote:

Yes, but people who've fled the Cuba regime (and their children) might not be exactly the most unbiased sources.

Sure, but we're talking about a Michael Moore movie here. If we take his off-the-chart bias and contrast it with a disgruntlement bias, maybe they'll cancel each other out and we find some facts in the rubble.

Liberty's Edge

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Matt Thomason wrote:
I may need to step away from the keyboard for a bit and put a nice soothing record onto the turntable.

True story -- back when I taught high school school, I had a record player in my classroom. One morning the kids were all gathered around it trying to figure out what it was. One kid said, "That's easy! It's a instrument; it makes a noise like, Whip-a-whap!"

When I explained its actual function, one girl (who will doubtless become an award-winning engineer) pointed at the needle and said, "This must be where the laser came out, then."

Definitely South Carolina. Kids here know what a turntable is, especially since most of them are into EDM and/or hip hop these days and there are still a bunch of turntable purists in the DJ ranks ;-)

Liberty's Edge

meatrace wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money.

It's only free in the sense that you can refuse to pay for it. They still send you the bill, and they'll still go through collections to get their money, and they'll still garnish your wages if you continue to refuse to pay. Not being able to turn someone away is not the same as giving it away for free.

Heck, by this logic food is free. Just go to a restaurant and skip out on the bill!

Um, not so much. I still owe Memorial Herman $1000 for an emergency room visit five years ago (for a muscle relaxer and that's it, not tests, no doctor, just a PA that never touched me), and have had zero phone calls, no bill collectors, and no wage garnishment. Furthermore, medical stuff doesn't go on your credit record. What happens is the costs are passed on to the insurance companies in the form of extremely inflated charges for meds and procedures.

Must be a Wisconsin thing you're talking about. Never seen it in NY, NJ, Florida, or Texas.

Liberty's Edge

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

New England Journal of Medicine: A Different Model — Medical Care in Cuba

Defend and extend the social gains of the Cuban Revolution!

For workers political revolution in Cuba to oust the Castroite bureaucracy! For international proletarian socialist revolution in the rest of the hemisphere!

For free, quality health care for all!

Down with clueless kids who don't know what record players are!

Vive le Galt!

Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f&!$s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer. She apparently doesn't think much of the quality of Cuban health care.


houstonderek wrote:
Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f+$#s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer. She apparently doesn't think much of the quality of Cuban health care.

Quick Google search results:

Brazil’s Health Care Solution: More Cuban Doctors

Liberty's Edge

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Matt Thomason wrote:


You're right :( I may need to step away from the keyboard for a bit and put a nice soothing record onto the turntable.

45 or 78 RPM?


houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money.

It's only free in the sense that you can refuse to pay for it. They still send you the bill, and they'll still go through collections to get their money, and they'll still garnish your wages if you continue to refuse to pay. Not being able to turn someone away is not the same as giving it away for free.

Heck, by this logic food is free. Just go to a restaurant and skip out on the bill!

Um, not so much. I still owe Memorial Herman $1000 for an emergency room visit five years ago (for a muscle relaxer and that's it, not tests, no doctor, just a PA that never touched me), and have had zero phone calls, no bill collectors, and no wage garnishment. Furthermore, medical stuff doesn't go on your credit record. What happens is the costs are passed on to the insurance companies in the form of extremely inflated charges for meds and procedures.

Must be a Wisconsin thing you're talking about. Never seen it in NY, NJ, Florida, or Texas.

Wife has been chased for a doctor's bill before. It happens.


houstonderek wrote:
Definitely South Carolina.

Virginia, actually, and the frosh were too young even for the 16+ clubs. For music, Marilyn Manson and Korn were still real big at that point.


houstonderek wrote:
Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f*$%s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer.

For that matter, why did Steve McQueen go to Mexico for coffee enemas from a disbarred orthodontist instead of staying in the US and getting, you know, actual medical care? People are strange.

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f*$%s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer.
For that matter, why did Steve McQueen go to Mexico for coffee enemas from a disbarred orthodontist instead of staying in the US and getting, you know, actual medical care? People are strange.

Because he was already dead and the quack offered him a sliver of hope for the low, low price of $40,000 a day! That's about $138,000 in todays money. There was no treatment, other than palliative, for metastasized mesothelioma in 1979. I'm not sure there's one now.

Your point about people going to quacks rather than getting real medicine is true, but McQueen's not a good example. He's a slightly better example of people wasting money chasing quack's lies and scams, but still pretty weak there since I don't think his family were left all that poorer by it.


Gotcha -- thanks for the clarification. I needed an example of people intentionally going to another country to get worse health care, and since I always dug his movies so much, McQueen popped into my head, even if maybe not the best example.

Liberty's Edge

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f+$#s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer. She apparently doesn't think much of the quality of Cuban health care.

Quick Google search results:

Brazil’s Health Care Solution: More Cuban Doctors

There's nothing wrong with Cuban doctors. They just don't have the equipment and supplies to do a good job. Brazil, on the other hand, does have the money to staff and supply first class hospitals.

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Definitely South Carolina.
Virginia, actually, and the frosh were too young even for the 16+ clubs. For music, Marilyn Manson and Korn were still real big at that point.

Fifteen years ago? They'd have to have had parents that NEVER listened to music to not know what a turntable is.

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Keep in mind the president of Brazil (look it up yourself, you lazy f*$%s) asked Chavez why he was being an idiot and going to Cuba for care when Brazil has some pretty amazing American trained cancer specialists. For a treatable cancer.
For that matter, why did Steve McQueen go to Mexico for coffee enemas from a disbarred orthodontist instead of staying in the US and getting, you know, actual medical care? People are strange.

What the other guy said. How come Bob Marley never got his toe looked at? Why do people flock to Brazil for gastric bypass and stomach bands? Why do people go to Mexico for dental work (I would if I wasn't going to get shot the second I cross the border)? People are strange.

The difference is, Chavez had a treatable cancer, and chose to go to Cuba out of some socialist camaraderie, rather than going someplace (right next door, and acceptably left-leaning) that actually has First World quality health care.

Liberty's Edge

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thejeff wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Moreover, getting people who have fled Cuba for Florida to be quoted in the article is really telling.
Not so much as you'd think, given that (a) it's not really kosher to just pop over to Cuba to ask people there; and (b) this is probably an absurd exaggeration, but someone once told me there may be more Cubans in Miami now than in Havana anyway*.

Yes, but people who've fled the Cuba regime (and their children) might not be exactly the most unbiased sources.

Yeah, because people who feel oppressed enough to basically swim ninety miles through shark infested waters (seriously, have you ever seen a refugee raft in person?) to taste a little opportunity and freedom are definitely not the people to ask. You should ask an unbiased source like Michael Moo...oh, wait...

Liberty's Edge

Freehold DM wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money.

It's only free in the sense that you can refuse to pay for it. They still send you the bill, and they'll still go through collections to get their money, and they'll still garnish your wages if you continue to refuse to pay. Not being able to turn someone away is not the same as giving it away for free.

Heck, by this logic food is free. Just go to a restaurant and skip out on the bill!

Um, not so much. I still owe Memorial Herman $1000 for an emergency room visit five years ago (for a muscle relaxer and that's it, not tests, no doctor, just a PA that never touched me), and have had zero phone calls, no bill collectors, and no wage garnishment. Furthermore, medical stuff doesn't go on your credit record. What happens is the costs are passed on to the insurance companies in the form of extremely inflated charges for meds and procedures.

Must be a Wisconsin thing you're talking about. Never seen it in NY, NJ, Florida, or Texas.

Wife has been chased for a doctor's bill before. It happens.

From an emergency room? Every story I see of harassment is from either private practice or pre-natal stuff.


houstonderek wrote:
Fifteen years ago? They'd have to have had parents that NEVER listened to music to not know what a turntable is.

I'm not sure how often any of these kids' parents were home, much less home listening to music.


houstonderek wrote:
From an emergency room? Every story I see of harassment is from either private practice or pre-natal stuff.

A while back, the one on Westheimer near Beltway 8 kept harrassing Mrs Gersen through the interminable appeals process (they put a drop of krazy-glue on her finger and sent her a bill for $5,000; she appealed and they sent a notice that they were contacting a collection agency. Eventually she wore down the billing people and they settled for $400 and called off the collectors).


houstonderek wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
Unfortunately, despite what some people believe nothing is actually free. In the U.S. healthcare is 100% free for people who don't have money.

It's only free in the sense that you can refuse to pay for it. They still send you the bill, and they'll still go through collections to get their money, and they'll still garnish your wages if you continue to refuse to pay. Not being able to turn someone away is not the same as giving it away for free.

Heck, by this logic food is free. Just go to a restaurant and skip out on the bill!

Um, not so much. I still owe Memorial Herman $1000 for an emergency room visit five years ago (for a muscle relaxer and that's it, not tests, no doctor, just a PA that never touched me), and have had zero phone calls, no bill collectors, and no wage garnishment. Furthermore, medical stuff doesn't go on your credit record. What happens is the costs are passed on to the insurance companies in the form of extremely inflated charges for meds and procedures.

Must be a Wisconsin thing you're talking about. Never seen it in NY, NJ, Florida, or Texas.

Wife has been chased for a doctor's bill before. It happens.
From an emergency room? Every story I see of harassment is from either private practice or pre-natal stuff.

Here's a news story with some relevant information.

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