8th level spells are pretty up there. It's should be doable to find one scroll to learn the sell, but finding piles of them to bind creatures with, is a lower probability. Not to mention sorcerers don't need to spend piles of money to bind an outsider.
My assumption is based on 2 things. I recognize that these may not hold true for every campaign, but in the default Golarion setting, they do.
My first assumption is that my wizard knows of, and can access a small city as needed. This should be doable since the wizard I envisioned will have taken teleport as a 5th level spell.
The second assumption is that my GM follows the settlement rules. If that is the case I can get a scroll of moment of prescience 75% of the time, as long as I have the money for it.
Since I use these scrolls (as well as usually debuffing the bound creature's charisma, but that is just personal preference), I can usually force unreasonable deals. So instead of 1day/CL, I'll make it 2 months/CL, or "until <quest> is completed". I also usually get securities thrown in there for my own reasons. That way it becomes a long-term investment, and I get to set up contingencies in case the creature wants revenge.
Still far from being "fairly useless" to my eyes ;) And when I finally want to bind that Planetar with greater planar binding, my wizard will succeed with any roll short of a natural 1, just like a sorcerer. :]
-Nearyn
Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. You can't count on access to that at 11 or 12.I'm sorry, what?! I cannot rely on getting a 3000gp item for an 11th level character? Oh, but if that's the case, then allow me to also make up arbitrary nonsense :D
You are not allowed to count on the GM not fiating that your sorcerer cannot learn planar binding. Also he may fiat out paragon surge! :D See, if we both make up arbitrary nonsense, everybody loses :)
Oh you can probably buy an 8th level scroll of some sort form a decent size city, but there is no guarantee that that spell is moment of prescience.
8th level spells are pretty up there. It's should be doable to find one scroll to learn the sell, but finding piles of them to bind creatures with, is a lower probability. Not to mention sorcerers don't need to spend piles of money to bind an outsider.
You can find any magical item of the settlement's base value or less with a 75% success rate. That's the base RAW assumption of the game.
Any GM who says otherwise is either fiating it away for story purposes or otherwise making up house rules.
@Nearyn
I agree with your assumptions but i want to talk a bit more about your first one.
While my experiences do so that this almost always is the case, there are some times that you just don't have a way, to get to a large enough city, for example during book 3 of Jade Regent we couldn't find a settlement within teleport distance* to buy anything useful, and at those times it really hurts to be wizard.
*we had to employ plane hopping to get our essentials
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@Nearyn
I agree with your assumptions but i want to talk a bit more about your first one.
While my experiences do so that this almost always is the case, there are some times that you just don't have a way, to get to a large enough city, for example during book 3 of Jade Regent we couldn't find a settlement within teleport distance* to buy anything useful, and at those times it really hurts to be wizard.*we had to employ plane hopping to get our essentials
It's not always an easy career choice :) But when it works, we reap the benefits.
For example, when we yell "I AM THE MOST POWERFUL WIZARD IN THE WOOOORLD!!!" people duck their heads in fear and cower.
when the sorcs yell "I AM THE MOST POWERFUL SORCERER IN THE WOOOORLD!!!" people think of Jafar, and snicker.
:P
-Nearyn
8th level spells are pretty up there. It's should be doable to find one scroll to learn the sell, but finding piles of them to bind creatures with, is a lower probability. Not to mention sorcerers don't need to spend piles of money to bind an outsider.My assumption is based on 2 things. I recognize that these may not hold true for every campaign, but in the default Golarion setting, they do.
My first assumption is that my wizard knows of, and can access a small city as needed. This should be doable since the wizard I envisioned will have taken teleport as a 5th level spell.
The second assumption is that my GM follows the settlement rules. If that is the case I can get a scroll of moment of prescience 75% of the time, as long as I have the money for it.
Since I use these scrolls (as well as usually debuffing the bound creature's charisma, but that is just personal preference), I can usually force unreasonable deals. So instead of 1day/CL, I'll make it 2 months/CL, or "until <quest> is completed". I also usually get securities thrown in there for my own reasons. That way it becomes a long-term investment, and I get to set up contingencies in case the creature wants revenge.
Still far from being "fairly useless" to my eyes ;) And when I finally want to bind that Planetar with greater planar binding, my wizard will succeed with any roll short of a natural 1, just like a sorcerer. :]
-Nearyn
Actually, given the extraordinary amount of penalties you can rack up trying to bind a good outsider against its will (i.e. that it will NOT do anything against its alignment), you're best restricting yourself to evil ones that will bow to your power, even if they hate you with all their might.
Also keep in mind that there are outsiders that can remove those conditions that you inflict on them promptly, and planetars are among those.
Thirdly, keep in mind that some DM's will go old school and consider casting spells on something inside a magic circle to be violating the circle, which will immediately set loose the creature. There were spells in older editions that were specifically designed so that you could cast them on bound creatures. Use anything else, and you set it loose.
Fourthly, remember that outsiders aren't stupid. They can loophole, and they know more binding stories then any mortal imagines exists. The DM can and should be looking for ways out of anything the PC does trying to bind a centuries or millennia-old being against its will. Especially ones that are extremely intelligent.
And we all know how Evil outsiders love to get revenge on those who abuse them, while Good outsiders will go waaaay out of their way to bring such conjurors to justice.
Evil Wizard: Casts Geas.
Planetar/any Angel: With Protective Aura looks slightly amused...
Wizard: Uhhh....
lastly,
The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.
Which, when you're dealing with higher-level opponents with, oh, telekinesis, is a recipe for disaster. One little ricocheting chunk of stone, falling tile, etc...
Also, to get real technical, you're going to need a pretty big diagram to contain some fiends if they take the simple precaution of appearing with their wings spread wide out...unless your DM lets it slide on the 'space' rules.
==Aelryinth
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I'd also like to point out that the SPells Known for Sorcs, humans, is pretty much always in favor of the sorcs after the very lowest levels, and the spells castable always is.
It holds true for Specialists, also. Now, Thassilonians can rival a sorc in spells/day, but absolutely giving up two schools of magic means they sacrifice even more versatility then a well-built sorc.
I have the charts if you want to see the numbers. I keep them in my favorites for when people actually want to compare them.
There is now a feat that allows sorcs to memorize a spell in place of a spell slot, and there is a ring that can give them any spell known with one round of work...including a spell that they just saw cast.
In short, a sorc can go get a spellbook and dip into all those marginal utility spells that wizards love when they need to, too.
And yes, Pages of Spell Knowledge are pricey...except the lowest level ones, which are no pricier then a Pearl of Power, and, you know, that's where sooooo many of those utility spells are?
The biggest problem with any sorc is those first four levels where they don't have a lot of spells and have to wait 3 levels to get a new level's worth. After that, it ramps up pretty quickly, and just comes down to proper spell selection.
==Aelryinth
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@Nearyn
I agree with your assumptions but i want to talk a bit more about your first one.
While my experiences do so that this almost always is the case, there are some times that you just don't have a way, to get to a large enough city, for example during book 3 of Jade Regent we couldn't find a settlement within teleport distance* to buy anything useful, and at those times it really hurts to be wizard.*we had to employ plane hopping to get our essentials
It's not always an easy career choice :) But when it works, we reap the benefits.
For example, when we yell "I AM THE MOST POWERFUL WIZARD IN THE WOOOORLD!!!" people duck their heads in fear and cower.
when the sorcs yell "I AM THE MOST POWERFUL SORCERER IN THE WOOOORLD!!!" people think of Jafar, and snicker.
:P
-Nearyn
DON'T! Mock. Jafar.
Actually, given the extraordinary amount of penalties you can rack up trying to bind a good outsider against its will (i.e. that it will NOT do anything against its alignment), you're best restricting yourself to evil ones that will bow to your power, even if they hate you with all their might.
This is, of course, a matter of table-to-table decisions, but while I agree that most good outsiders will not do acts of abominable evil, I'd think that faced with the potential of being obliterated by the wizard, while helplessly contained in their traps, will make most deals seem okay-ish, by comparison :)
Also keep in mind that there are outsiders that can remove those conditions that you inflict on them promptly, and planetars are among those.
Quite right, but let's face it. Even if you cannot break apart the creature's charisma, you can still get yourself a very good chance of succes with the proper items, buffs and moment of prescience.
Thirdly, keep in mind that some DM's will go old school and consider casting spells on something inside a magic circle to be violating the circle, which will immediately set loose the creature. There were spells in older editions that were specifically designed so that you could cast them on bound creatures. Use anything else, and you set it loose.
Some DMs might do that, but then again, I make my DMs state house-rules up-front before we start the campaign to avoid those kind of misunderstandings.
Fourthly, remember that outsiders aren't stupid. They can loophole, and they know more binding stories then any mortal imagines exists. The DM can and should be looking for ways out of anything the PC does trying to bind a centuries or millennia-old being against its will. Especially ones that are extremely intelligent.
And we all know how Evil outsiders love to get revenge on those who abuse them, while Good outsiders will go waaaay out of their way to bring such conjurors to justice.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained >;]
Evil Wizard: Casts Geas.
Planetar/any Angel: With Protective Aura looks slightly amused...
Wizard: Uhhh....
Planetar/any Angel: Hah! what now?!
Evil Wizard: *casts geas from a neutral source*Planetar/any Angel: ...F**K!!
lastly,
The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.
Which, when you're dealing with higher-level opponents with, oh, telekinesis, is a recipe for disaster. One little ricocheting chunk of stone, falling tile, etc...
You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.
Also, to get real technical, you're going to need a pretty big diagram to contain some fiends if they take the simple precaution of appearing with their wings spread wide out...unless your DM lets it slide on the 'space' rules.
This, however, holds true for wizards and sorcerers alike. We must all abide by the basic premise set by the spells we cast.
-Nearyn
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1: Any class ability that is governed by GM whim is not a good draw point for a class.
To whit: No class, or "every class" is "governed by GM whim". My advice is relax, or find another GM. I've never lost a spellbook, but if I did, I would consider it a setback for my character and carry on. Did Conan cry when Thulsa Doom took his stuff?
My name is Owly, and I play a Universalist.
Human.
No familiar either.
Battlefield control wizard.
I'm having a great time. I kick ass and my party loves me. My Arcane Bond has saved party bacon a half-dozen times, at we all just hit level 11. Heck, my character has even had a girlfriend. Can all of you say the same? I thought not.
Being versatile is a difficult path in life, but it is a potent one. I've got something for every situation, and I've made my GM throw food across the table at me in frustration.
Sure others can cast more powerful spells, but I've got metamagic feats too, and you have to roll twice to save your can from some of my magic. I can penetrate SR, and I've got an Amulet of Magecraft that allows me to substitute spells when needed. Half Elves with Paragon Surge? Pfft. *pats them on the head*. Good job, son. Now stand back.
Some excellent points have been raised in this thread. I'm not convinced that Sorcerers are better. Maybe if we were screwdrivers, a sorcerer would be a custom ratcheting phillips 14" screwdriver. Excellent. My wizard is a whole set of standard and phillips with custom grips. Magnetized. Maybe I can't do what he does, but it doesn't mean I'm turning up my nose at him. We NEED 14" ratcheting screwdrivers. Come along for the ride, Sorcerer.
As for "Guidelines" versus "Rules", that 75% chance is the "Magic Mart" that has been discussed in so many threads. Let players buy what they will on that table. Use the rules. It works. Use Nethys's Random Treasure Generator. It's fun. Miss that 75% chance for a scroll of Lightning Bolt? Damn. Go to another town. Buy your secrets there. Carry on. Stay alive. Win or die. Keep adventuring.
@Aelryinth
Nearyn covered it, but binding without a diagram? That's like trying bind during a sand-storm levels of a bad-idea.
Also like to point out that there is no size limitation on the diagram and that the spreading of wings trick doesn't work. The outsider is bound to the trap and will be forced to fit into the trap, which said trap is already the appropriate size for the outsider.
Even if you assume the '10ft' radius being the max size of the diagram, that is still big enough for a Gargantuan creature, let alone huge-size. AND that is before squeezing rules!
Ok so is it time for the ref to administer the count? Judges decision? Anyhoot this was a championship bout but if this is it i think w's got the w.
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Anyone snickering at a full 9 level caster can expect to have a life expectancy measured in minutes.
Actually, Jafar is a good example, so permit me this little, tiny piece of trolling, k? :)
Jafar gets lucky and wishes to become a 20th level sorcerer with 10 mythic tiers! Amazing! He's unstoppable! But alas, he's a sorcerer, so he has unfortunately dumped int, and has only mediocre wisdom. This leads to him failing his sense motive against a street-rat's bluff attempt, and failing his subsequent knowledge(planes) check to realize that becoming an Efreet instead would diminish his powers. Alas, if only he'd had better int :P
Okay, I'm done being clever(read:tired).
As far as Moment of Prescience scrolls go sure you can buy them for 3k but at level 11 your average WBL is 82000. Are you really willing to spend 3.5% of your WBL to bind a single 12HD Outsider.
You're damn right I'm willing to do just that! I'd spend much more if I didn't have a silent agreement with my GM to not break his campaigns.
That seems like a pretty bad idea.
paying 3000 gold pieces for a Glabrezu servant for 22 months seems like a bad idea to you?! Show me where you shop, mate, because you are obviously used to better deals than I am.
-Nearyn
Wizards get access to more spells known and get them a level sooner. Absolutely by RAW.
Mr. Wizard decides one day to expand his options. He simply telports to his favorite Spells-R-Us magic shop a few hundred miles away. There he purchases whatever scrolls he desires and poof!- his spell book is now more awesome when he simply transfers them in. He is NOT limited to two spells a level.
The O.P. asks why play a Wizard, and when answered retreats to denial and troll mental gymnastics. I don't get it.
Wizard by way of knockout yet some in the sorc crowd may deny it.
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Meh my default position on calling outsiders is to do it with an unprotected circle, with the following spoken as soon as they come through, "Yes you can leave or attack, but realize you are actually here and if I kill you that is it forever for you. As I brought you here it is well within my power to send you back, if you don't wish to bargain say so and it's home with you. Otherwise let's talk."
Of course this works better if you can actually end its existence as you claim.
Meh my default position on calling outsiders is to do it with an unprotected circle, with the following spoken as soon as they come through, "Yes you can leave or attack, but realize you are actually here and if I kill you that is it forever for you. As I brought you here it is well within my power to send you back, if you don't wish to bargain say so and it's home with you. Otherwise let's talk."
Of course this works better if you can actually end its existence as you claim.
A very diplomatic solution, and in all likelyhood waaaay more likely to -not- earn you lifelong enemies than my own position :)
I'd still use a warding diagram, just for the added safety of knowing that I can back up my claim. If its trapped in a circle trap with a warding diagram you can basically kill nearly anything you call with magic missiles alone, or patience and a sharp stick.
-Nearyn
An evil wizard using any form of magic against the planetar is going to trip the aura. And an intelligent neutral character doing so for the benefit of an evil character is committing an evil act. It's going to be very hard to pass the sniff test on that. "I keep my neutral alignment while performing an act designed to completely subjugate a good outsider of the highest heavens to this evil bastard" is probably not going to fly.
Good outsiders will probably willingly die before being forced to act against their alignment. That's a very key difference between them and evil ones. You cannot force one to act against its nature, it is GOOD incarnate. Subjugating neutral and evil outsiders, not so much, especially evil...being enslaved is essentially part of what they are, after all.
==Aelryinth
An evil wizard using any form of magic against the planetar is going to trip the aura.
Incorrect. If I use a neutral source (such as an unaligned magic item) it does not trip the aura. An evil item has the [evil] descriptor, and is expressly cited as being blocked by the protection from evil effect, enjoyed by such outsiders.
but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion
Evil creatures or objects, meaning non-evil objects are not blocked. A wand of magic missile, even if crafted by an evil wizard and used by an evil wizard, does not suddenly get the [evil] descriptor. So magic items work just fine against our hypothetical trapped outsider.
And an intelligent neutral character doing so for the benefit of an evil character is committing an evil act. It's going to be very hard to pass the sniff test on that. "I keep my neutral alignment while performing an act designed to completely subjugate a good outsider of the highest heavens to this evil bastard" is probably not going to fly.
Even if it was relevant, one evil act does not change your alignment. If I was to (for some reason) commission a neutral caster to geas the creature, the act would not magically turn said character evil, thereby saving the outsider out of convinience. I mean... I guess technically it might, if you employed some form of point system for calculating alignment shifts, and the neutral character was on the very edge of evil? So I guess in very situational circumstances, I -might- be prevented from commissioning a casting of geas. Not that I need it though, seeing as how I can just use a magical object.
Good outsiders will probably willingly die before being forced to act against their alignment. That's a very key difference between them and evil ones. You cannot force one to act against its nature, it is GOOD incarnate.
For the most part I agree with you here, but I would not make a broadstroke generalization and say that not a single good outsider would be willing. Instead i'd probably say that most would be unwilling. However, this is easily subverted if you do not profess your intentions before making the deal. Sure, some celestials will not be thusly tricked, and those who will not will have to be *dealt* with.
Subjugating neutral and evil outsiders, not so much, especially evil...being enslaved is essentially part of what they are, after all.
Again, for most part I find myself in agreement with this. But once again I must say that I would say, as I did above, that this is the case for most, but not all :)
-Nearyn
An evil wizard using any form of magic against the planetar is going to trip the aura. And an intelligent neutral character doing so for the benefit of an evil character is committing an evil act. It's going to be very hard to pass the sniff test on that. "I keep my neutral alignment while performing an act designed to completely subjugate a good outsider of the highest heavens to this evil bastard" is probably not going to fly.
Good outsiders will probably willingly die before being forced to act against their alignment. That's a very key difference between them and evil ones. You cannot force one to act against its nature, it is GOOD incarnate. Subjugating neutral and evil outsiders, not so much, especially evil...being enslaved is essentially part of what they are, after all.
Evil wizard binds Planetar so that he/she can heal the evil party. Idk if HELPING creatures is acting against one's nature. That and PB let's you force creatures to things they wouldn't normally do.
One of my favorite ideas is to bind an efreeti disguised as someone you don't like or are at odds with. Force the efreeti to kneel down and eat a plate of feces. Laugh at the outsider and then send it away.
Wait for the wish-granting monster to exact harsh revenge upon your enemy, perhaps even by giving a certain party that is at odds with the target non-perverted wishes.
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If you only find Planar Binding desired in 'select situations,' you aren't trying hard enough.
Everything is only desired in 'select situations' -- after all I don't need a succubus or a trumpet archon to get a peanut butter sandwich (as tempting as the first might be).
Many times the best solution is the simplest, and planar binding is rarely (if ever) simple.
Soooooo why exactly did the discussion on why you should choose a wizard over a sorcerer devolve into which of them is better at making use of a spell that is only really desired in select situations and tends to be outside of the scope of the majority of the levels at which the game is played and during which the game can be loosely called balanced?
I mean I'm not going to weigh in one way or the other but it seems to me if your main selling point is I'm slightly more useful at using one spell at level 11+ you should probably rethink the argument.
Edit: Personally I find Sorcerers to be more fun as specialists and generally I find them easier to play at the table because your options are limited and you don't need to plan things out but I find Wizards to be more effective and versatile and imo more fun to play in a campaign with a broader scope of styles of play or in which you lack a true varied spell caster(I think parties work best with either a Cleric or a Wizard to bring a large spells known swiss army knife to the party although well planned spontaneous casters with backup scrolls or some of the non core classes can also do this) Wizards of course are also better crafters which is nice.
Spont vs prepared casting is more or less a wash, even taking into consideration the progression difference and spells known.
Whether or not Int is a better stat than cha is basically where the argument is. Which the main selling point there is winning ways and planar binding vs but-ton skills point and super knowledge checks
Of course sage bloodline + human favored class bonus + nonesense to also get paragon surge = superior arcane caster regardless of cha vs int debate.
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If you only find Planar Binding desired in 'select situations,' you aren't trying hard enough.Everything is only desired in 'select situations' -- after all I don't need a succubus or a trumpet archon to get a peanut butter sandwich (as tempting as the first might be).
Many times the best solution is the simplest, and planar binding is rarely (if ever) simple.
Zero shame in my Balor simulacrum making my PBJ sandwiches.
or a paladin hunts you down and guts you for endangering the common folk.
He falls after the first swing of his sword for trying to kill a good character.
Zero shame in my Balor simulacrum making my PBJ sandwiches.
I like this thinking :)
-Nearyn
Summoning evil outsiders onto our plane is reason enough to gank a "good" character if you ask me.or a paladin hunts you down and guts you for endangering the common folk.He falls after the first swing of his sword for trying to kill a good character.
Good thing nobody did, 'cause you're wrong.
Then again, so is Marthkus.
Summoning evil outsiders onto our plane is reason enough to gank a "good" character if you ask me.or a paladin hunts you down and guts you for endangering the common folk.He falls after the first swing of his sword for trying to kill a good character.Good thing nobody did, 'cause you're wrong.
Then again, so is Marthkus.
No one wins or is right in alignment discussions.
This is more true for the intentionally opaque paladin's code.
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Summoning evil outsiders onto our plane is reason enough to gank a "good" character if you ask me.or a paladin hunts you down and guts you for endangering the common folk.He falls after the first swing of his sword for trying to kill a good character.
...Sir Lionell said in his defense, looking disheartened at the sky. There was no answer, no spark of inspiration, nothing. Just a sinking, empty feeling in his heart, that perhaps everything had not been so clear cut as he had once thought. Feeling truly alone for the first time, in a long time, he gazed out into the distance, remembering the words of his swordmaster and senior knight of order of the sacred shield. "This world is filled with good and evil, but everything is not black and white. You must never make snap-judgements or assumptions on the guilt or innoncence of others. Lest you endanger the integrity of your order, and cast a shadow on the righteousness of your goddess". Sir Lionell looked at the bloodstained sword. It appeared dull and worn, where before it had appeared pristine, had appeared to glow with its own, subtle light. His grib tightened on the blade, but he found his strength leaving, and then, suddenly, the blade fell from his hand, and landed on the ground with a dull clank. His vision blurred, and his breath hastened, as he found himself wiping tears from his face. He hadn't meant to. He hadn't meant to. It had appeared so clear just a few short moments ago. Now.... now it was different. He knew he had to look for answers. Seek penance. He looked at the body of the dead wizard, and realized for the first time, that the demon he had summoned was talking. No, not talking, laughing. Sir Lionell wished to grab his sword, to lunge at the fiend, but what strength he thought he posseses, had left him, and he found himself... afraid. A feeling he'd thought he'd left behind forever.
"I should kill you, little mortal", the beast spoke, every note of its foul tongue like shattered glass in his ears. "But I'm in a good mood right now. I mean a -really- good mood. You have my thanks, mortal. Know that I shall follow the affairs of you and your kin, closely".
With a harsh laugh and a burst of fire, the fiend disappeared, leaving Sir Lionell alone with his rage, his guilt and his frustration. He stood for a long time, he knew not how long, but when he finally found the strength to move forward, he stopped and took another look at the dead wizard. After thinking for a short while, he kneeled down, and picked up the body, hoistered it over his shoulder, and started walking.
"I am so sorry" he said, and promptly wondered why. Were the words for himself? For the body? For his goddess? Maybe, they were words spoken for all 3. Maybe some other reason entirely. Putting one foot in front of the other, Sir Lionell started out on the road once more. In time, he'd find his answers. So he dared hope.
-Nearyn
Summoning evil outsiders onto our plane is reason enough to gank a "good" character if you ask me.or a paladin hunts you down and guts you for endangering the common folk.He falls after the first swing of his sword for trying to kill a good character.Good thing nobody did, 'cause you're wrong.
Then again, so is Marthkus."When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type."
Good thing nobody asked the rules either.
*face palm*
Which would be relevant if CLERICS COULD CAST PLANAR BINDING!Casting an [evil] spell is not an evil act (go ask James Jacobs).
I can also refer you to the earlier quote of me "If you constantly summon up demons to solve your problems don't be surprised ..." I assert that once you start relying on planar binding of evil creatures to solve your problems you're no longer good, at best you're neutral.
Sorcerer summons demons to pick up litter and work at soup kitchens.
NOPE! Evil PALADIN SMITE!
*face palm*
Which would be relevant if CLERICS COULD CAST PLANAR BINDING!Casting an [evil] spell is not an evil act (go ask James Jacobs).
ORLY?
James Jacobs wrote:
Spells with the Evil descriptor are evil; that's why they have that descriptor. Same goes for Good or Lawful or Chaotic. That means that certain classes can't really cast them at all (divine classes of different alignments), but that other classes (arcane spellcasters, for the most part) can cast them as much as they like. But casting alignment spells a lot will and should turn the caster toward that alignment, unless the GM doesn't care about alignment and doesn't enforce such changes, in which case the GM should let EVERY player at the table know that alignment doesn't impact the game so that players who do play as if it does have a chance to adjust their play styles as appropriate. Removing the alignment types of certain spells has implications, though, and before you do so make sure that no one in your group is planning on building a character who uses the alignemnt descriptors in their character build!
You know what? I'm not going to agree with you out of principle. I refuse to acknowledge advocators of lawful-stupid paladins to be right about anything, even when they are.
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*one of the stupidest rules clarifications that has ever been made by the design team*
I urge you to remember the following. According to the CORE RULES, those being CORE only, casting spells with the [evil] descriptor is not an evil action. The paladin book (Champions of purity, I believe it was called) had a section called "evil magic in golarion" or something like that, that spelled out that in Golarion, casting [evil] magic is an evil act.
I'm personally -really- glad that this is not a core rule, so I don't have to house-rule it out of all of my games, because it is just the stupidest, most nonsensical ruling ever. If you doubt it, go find Ashiel's response to SKR stating that casting [evil] magic is an evil act, and watch her spin arguments that just completely, utterly -DESTROY- any semblance of reason SKR and half the thread try to muster in the defense of this bad, bad ruling :)
I'm not joking, she obliterates that ruling on a subatomic level, spelling out clearly and precisely, why it is an absolute nonsense ruling. It's a good read.
-Nearyn
That being said I think certain spells shouldn't be classed as evil but some spells are definitely evil. And if you think summoning demons shouldn't be evil I could point out one of a million stories and real life examples of where the summoning and communing with demons is pretty much universally considered evil.
Logically speaking I can't see any reason why the gods of good would be like "Well sure he's summoning demons that could get loose and kill and spread evil throughout the world but if he had to do his dishes and make a sammich with his own power why that would be truly evil!"
Again I cannot urge you enough to find and read that thread... well, not really the thread, there is -alot- of nonsense in it, but at least the input from Ashiel and the ones addressing her.
Anyway, you want a good reason to rule it that way in-world? Turn the argument on its head and suddenly it spells idiocy for entire campaign world. Consider this scenario:
[evil] magic is an evil act, motivation, purpose and reason be damned. Okay, then by extension [good] magic must be good acts. So fret not, evil sorcerers the world over! just chain-cast protection from evil for days on end, and get a free ticket to the cushy afterlife, guaranteed! :D
The alignment of casting a spell should be dictated by what you use it for, not its alignment descriptor.
-Nearyn
EDIT: I'll not pursue the alignment topic further. You know my stance and I've provided you with what reason I believe a person reasonably need in order to share my viewpoint. If you don't, then that's well and good. If you do, euraka! another one sees the light! <3
Fair enough. I don't entirely agree, if you've ever read the Dresden Files...
I've had that series recommended to me several times, now. I think I'll try to get my hands on it.
-Nearyn