Why choose wizard?


Advice

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Avh wrote:
And the wizard is more likely to also have Magic circle against the appropriate alignment (each is a separate spell) and Dimensional anchor.

and there i was thinking that wizards never get any scrolls? how are they able to take up multiple magic circle spells and dimensional anchor? thats entirely up to GM whim!


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Grishnackh wrote:
Avh wrote:
And the wizard is more likely to also have Magic circle against the appropriate alignment (each is a separate spell) and Dimensional anchor.
and there i was thinking that wizards never get any scrolls? how are they able to take up multiple magic circle spells and dimensional anchor? thats entirely up to GM whim!

You will find that Avh is not one of Damian's aliases. It's another user entirely xD

-Nearyn


@Grishnack :

Never any scrolls ? Seriously ?

It would be my player whim to kicks the GM's ass if one would ever do that.


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Where is this view point that wizards shouldn't get lots of spells and it's all up to GM whim coming from?

Is there a notice I missed that said GMs should be dicks to wizards and not let them do what the class is supposed to do?

Can we all agree if you have a dick GM that chooses to cut off the wizard at the knee caps and leave the sorcerer alone that sure, then the sorcerer is discernably better. But if you have a reasonable GM they are both good at different things.


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oh sorry @Avh, you got the same avatar, my fault xD


Damian Magecraft wrote:
Nearyn wrote:

@Damian Magecraft:

Everything is governed by GM whim. If the GM drops a monster in front of your group, it is his whim that decides whether or not it is a Bugbear, or an advanced half-dragon bugbear fighter 20, mythic champion 10.

If you assume the GM employs the encounters the way the book describes as "appropriate", then why is it wrong to assume that the GM treats item availability as the book describes as "appropriate"?

Because availability of XYZ has always been the simplest, fastest, and most commonly used means of character control of the GM.

Quote:
We're not gonna consider schools? Okay, so I assume we don't consider bloodlines as well? Well that makes it easy! Then wizard is infinitely superior to sorcs, instead of it being a duel of builds. If we're not gonna consider feats, that means we don't consider Expanded Arcana
Except... A Bloodline is a mandatory feature and Schools are an optional one.

Continues to say close minded and misguided things.

Did you open the thread to argue that the Sorcerer is better? If you did please don't open the thread with a deceptive title. People have given you solid reasons and you reply with "GM Fiat" despite the base setting of the game allows easy spell access.

A school is as optional as a Bloodline is. Read as mandatory. Universalist is a school.

I feel sorry that your game experience has required a GM to control your character development.


Claxon wrote:

Where is this view point that wizards shouldn't get lots of spells and it's all up to GM whim coming from?

Is there a notice I missed that said GMs should be dicks to wizards and not let them do what the class is supposed to do?

it started about the 10th comment or something


@Nearyn

You don't want that outsider escaping on even a roll of a 20. This just can't be done with a wizard for all the 18HD or less outsiders you want to bind


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Ravingdork wrote:

My sorcerer has woken up bound, gagged, AND naked in a dark cell somewhere deep beneath the dessert.

That must have been one huge dessert! I hope it was delicious!!!

NB: comment not intended to disparage Ravingdork, whom I deeply respect. Just enjoying the inadvertent typo.


Avh wrote:

@Nearyn : totally agree with you.

Also remember that stat check (as the charisma check to escape for example) doesn't auto win on a natural "20" and doesn't auto fail on a natural "1".

And the wizard is more likely to also have Magic circle against the appropriate alignment (each is a separate spell) and Dimensional anchor.

Combining the 3 spells makes it impossible to escape the spell assuming the creature fail the will save.

Then you can use your other spells (or knowledge) to learn what would please the creature, earning you as much as +6 to your opposed charisma check. The sorcerer is likely to not have those spells nor enough knowledge, except a few exceptions.

Magic Circle against evil can bind any non-good outsider. You don't want to forcibly bind a good outsider as a good character. Although you can planar bind a good creature with magic-circle-against evil. They just aren't imprisoned once they are there.

False. If the Cha check DC is low (because you're a wizard). Then an outsider can escape.

More false. Planar savant is a great trait, and sorcerers don't need the +6 bonus with their cha.


Ok... my mistake.
Poor choice of words. I never really considered the defUlt Universalist a school. (Nor have many from my neck of woods. Must be a regional thing.)
But since Universalist is the default for wizards and arcane bloodline is the default for sorcerer I thought the comparison accurate.


Marthkus wrote:

@Nearyn

You don't want that outsider escaping on even a roll of a 20. This just can't be done with a wizard for all the 18HD or less outsiders you want to bind

Sorry mate, but I don't think there's merit to your argument. At level 11 when I can start using the standard planar binding, the only 12HD(or less) creature I can find who can even beat the DC at all is a succubus, and she needs to roll an 18 on a d20 to succeed. That's pretty darn acceptable for my 8-charisma wizard, wouldn't you say?

And at the level where I cast greater planar binding, I -will- have charisma boosting items(and CL boosting items) not to mention my preparations will be even more extensive. There is simply no way a creature is breaking out of my outsider traps, even on a roll of 20. I won't allow it.

If a creature has such a high CHA that I cannot safely bind it(I don't know what creature that would be, but let's assume that there is one), I won't call it(YES! I know you're there Knowledge(planes) +6 billion, now could you please be quiet, I'm trying to write here!)

I'm afraid I must maintain that Sorcerers do not make better planar binders than Wizards.

-Nearyn


Damian Magecraft wrote:

Ok... my mistake.

Poor choice of words. I never really considered the defUlt Universalist a school. (Nor have many from my neck of woods. Must be a regional thing.)
But since Universalist is the default for wizards and arcane bloodline is the default for sorcerer I thought the comparison accurate.

Arcane is by no stretch of the imagination a default choice. That would be like saying clerics have a default god and domains.


Damian Magecraft wrote:

Ok... my mistake.

Poor choice of words. I never really considered the defUlt Universalist a school. (Nor have many from my neck of woods. Must be a regional thing.)
But since Universalist is the default for wizards and arcane bloodline is the default for sorcerer I thought the comparison accurate.

It's actually terribly inaccurate as the Arcane Bloodline is one of the very best Bloodlines for Sorcerers and Universalists are terribly awful compared to Specialists.


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

@Nearyn

You don't want that outsider escaping on even a roll of a 20. This just can't be done with a wizard for all the 18HD or less outsiders you want to bind

Sorry mate, but I don't think there's merit to your argument. At level 11 when I can start using the standard planar binding, the only 12HD(or less) creature I can find who can even beat the DC at all is a succubus, and she needs to roll an 18 on a d20 to succeed. That's pretty darn acceptable for my 8-charisma wizard, wouldn't you say?

And at the level where I cast greater planar binding, I -will- have charisma boosting items(and CL boosting items) not to mention my preparations will be even more extensive. There is simply no way a creature is breaking out of my outsider traps, even on a roll of 20. I won't allow it.

If a creature has such a high CHA that I cannot safely bind it(I don't know what creature that would be, but let's assume that there is one), I won't call it(YES! I know you're there Knowledge(planes) +6 billion, now could you please be quiet, I'm trying to write here!)

I'm afraid I must maintain that Sorceres do not make better planar binders than Wizards.

Now that I look at the cha mods more closely, they are pretty low. Wizard is still fairly useless at planar binding until they get 8th level spells.


Scavion wrote:
It's actually terribly inaccurate as the Arcane Bloodline is one of the very best Bloodlines for Sorcerers and Universalists are terribly awful compared to Specialists.

Pretty much yeah.

Although to be fair there are only really two stand out School choices, Foresight and Teleportation. Admixture is great if you are going down the blasting route but you have then chosen to hamper yourself by blasting.


Claxon wrote:

Where is this view point that wizards shouldn't get lots of spells and it's all up to GM whim coming from?

Is there a notice I missed that said GMs should be dicks to wizards and not let them do what the class is supposed to do?

Can we all agree if you have a dick GM that chooses to cut off the wizard at the knee caps and leave the sorcerer alone that sure, then the sorcerer is discernably better. But if you have a reasonable GM they are both good at different things.

This is certainly true. If the gm is actively trying to hinder wizards and not giving them access to the material rewards the game expects AND not allowing downtime for them to do research on their own, then sorcerors are the better choice almost exclusively. If that is the only case the OP is willing to consider, then there isnt a point in discussing this with him.

EVERY class will be bad if the dm actively prevents them from getting what they need. If there are no weapons and armor made available to the party, most martial characters will be pretty aweful, monks will be far superior. That doesnt make monks the best martial class.


Claxon wrote:

Where is this view point that wizards shouldn't get lots of spells and it's all up to GM whim coming from?

Is there a notice I missed that said GMs should be dicks to wizards and not let them do what the class is supposed to do?

Can we all agree if you have a dick GM that chooses to cut off the wizard at the knee caps and leave the sorcerer alone that sure, then the sorcerer is discernably better. But if you have a reasonable GM they are both good at different things.

not disagreeing with the point. But in the last 5 games I played as wizard; the BBEGs were a priest of a mad god, an insane sorcerer, a goblin horde, a minor demon, and an inquisitor bent on slaying the thief and all associated with him.

Access to additional spells from sources besides level up? Damn few (and the available spells were ones that I already had).
So my experience says GM whim plays a big part in the wizards viability if you use spells as a metric.


Marthkus wrote:
Now that I look at the cha mods more closely, they are pretty low. Wizard is still fairly useless at planar binding until they get 8th level spells.

XD Goshdarnit Marthkus, how is that even remotely true?! What scenario do you envision where a wizard is "fairly useless" at planar binding? Even my 8-int mageling from before could bind damn near every outsider in the cosmos that the spell allowed him to call - WITHOUT GEAR XD. How is that "fairly useless"? Especially considering once I -have- them trapped, there is NO way they're getting out. The only way they're getting out is through outside intervention, which a Sorcerer is JUST as prone to, as a wizard.

-Nearyn


andreww wrote:
Scavion wrote:
It's actually terribly inaccurate as the Arcane Bloodline is one of the very best Bloodlines for Sorcerers and Universalists are terribly awful compared to Specialists.

Pretty much yeah.

Although to be fair there are only really two stand out School choices, Foresight and Teleportation. Admixture is great if you are going down the blasting route but you have then chosen to hamper yourself by blasting.

A lot of the Elemental schools are also good. Specifically Void.

Enhancement, Enchantment, Conjuration is even good on it's own though Teleportation is a straight upgrade.


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Damian Magecraft wrote:

not disagreeing with the point. But in the last 5 games I played as wizard; the BBEGs were a priest of a mad god, an insane sorcerer, a goblin horde, a minor demon, and an inquisitor bent on slaying the thief and all associated with him.

Access to additional spells from sources besides level up? Damn few (and the available spells were ones that I already had).
So my experience says GM whim plays a big part in the wizards viability if you use spells as a metric.

I notice at least 3 of the above are spellcasters. I present to you Blood Transcription.

Sure it's "evil", but I'm sure you'll find a way to reconcile with that fact when you suddenly get to stock up on spells from any opponent that knows a spell that appears on your spell list, spellbook or no spellbook. So stock up on scrolls (you're a wizard and get the feat for free, so your GM being an idiot doesn't matter), and pull them out as needed.


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Now that I look at the cha mods more closely, they are pretty low. Wizard is still fairly useless at planar binding until they get 8th level spells.
XD Goshdarnit Marthkus, how is that even remotely true?! What scenario do you envision where a wizard is "fairly useless" at planar binding? Even my 8-int mageling from before could bind damn near every outsider in the cosmos that the spell allowed him to call - WITHOUT GEAR XD. How is that "fairly useless"? Especially considering once I -have- them trapped, there is NO way they're getting out. The only way they're getting out is through outside intervention, which a Sorcerer is JUST as prone to, as a wizard.

They're too slow and unreliable at it. Sorcerers could reliably bind an outsider in a quiet room in a dungeon. They don't need the weeks and months of prep time a wizard does.


Marthkus wrote:
Avh wrote:

@Nearyn : totally agree with you.

Also remember that stat check (as the charisma check to escape for example) doesn't auto win on a natural "20" and doesn't auto fail on a natural "1".

And the wizard is more likely to also have Magic circle against the appropriate alignment (each is a separate spell) and Dimensional anchor.

Combining the 3 spells makes it impossible to escape the spell assuming the creature fail the will save.

Then you can use your other spells (or knowledge) to learn what would please the creature, earning you as much as +6 to your opposed charisma check. The sorcerer is likely to not have those spells nor enough knowledge, except a few exceptions.

Magic Circle against evil can bind any non-good outsider. You don't want to forcibly bind a good outsider as a good character. Although you can planar bind a good creature with magic-circle-against evil. They just aren't imprisoned once they are there.

False. If the Cha check DC is low (because you're a wizard). Then an outsider can escape.

More false. Planar savant is a great trait, and sorcerers don't need the +6 bonus with their cha.

My bad for the magic circle.

However, the charisma check is almost always a success for the wizard, not depending on its charisma.

With lesser planar binding : the creature you can bind with the most charisma is the barghest. It can beat DC 22 at the maximum.
The wizard needs a charisma of 6 or more to bind it for sure (DC 15 + 5 [diagram] + 5 [CL/2] - 2 [charisma] = DC 23, impossible to beat).

With Planar binding : you can bind all creatures with a charisma of 10 or lower, except the succubus (needs 18 or more charisma). With a charisma of 10, you still have 80% chance of trapping the succubus (at level 12).

With greater planar binding : you can bind all creatures with a charisma of 6 or lower, except the succubus (needs 12 or more charisma for no failure, 10 charisma for 95% of success, at level 16).


Damian Magecraft wrote:

not disagreeing with the point. But in the last 5 games I played as wizard; the BBEGs were a priest of a mad god, an insane sorcerer, a goblin horde, a minor demon, and an inquisitor bent on slaying the thief and all associated with him.

Access to additional spells from sources besides level up? Damn few (and the available spells were ones that I already had).
So my experience says GM whim plays a big part in the wizards viability if you use spells as a metric.

is the GM in this case preparing itemshops in advance? this is usually what happens if a GM does this because noone in his right mind grinds through a few hundred pages in a rulebook to setup a single shop ^^


Marthkus wrote:
They're too slow and unreliable at it. Sorcerers could reliably bind an outsider in a quiet room in a dungeon. They don't need the weeks and months of prep time a wizard does.

So potentially using a week to get a safe planar bound creature is being "fairly useless"? Let me offer you a different perspective:

If your quest hinges on you getting out a 'last-minute' planar binding, then you've F-ed up something fierce somewhere along the way, and you probably could have avoided it, if you had a planner in the group. Someone with high intelligence and good preparation skills. Hmmmmm?

At best, a wizard can bind just as fast as a sorcerer. If the best conditions are not met, he can reliably do it with about a days worth of work. Not weeks or months. A matter of hours. The longer you take, the easier it gets, but hitting the same security in binding as a sorcerer of equal level, takes mere hours.

-Nearyn


Nearyn wrote:
If your quest hinges on you getting out a 'last-minute' planar binding, then you've F-ed up something fierce somewhere along the way

Or if you are a sorcerer, you bind outsiders spontaneously and can do so to solve most non-combat problems.

It's the opposed cha check that is the problem with wizards. Before 8th level spells, their chance of passing the check needed to actually get an outsider to do something rarely passes 50% (and no, you don't get to assume +6 from the spell, unless you are spending money like that from planar ally, since that bonus is entirely up to GM fiat)

EDIT: Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.


Marthkus wrote:
It's the opposed cha check that is the problem with wizards. Before 8th level spells, their chance of passing the check needed to actually get an outsider to do something rarely passes 50% (and no, you don't get to assume +6 from the spell, unless you are spending money like that from planar ally, since that bonus is entirely up to GM fiat)

I'm more than happy to spend a triffling 3000 gold pieces for my planar binding.

So your sorcerer can spontaneously summon an outsider and plea-bargain for minor favors all day, if you want to :)

Meanwhile I'll be getting a scroll of 'moment of prescience' for a delicious +15 to my charisma check and forcing a really beneficial, long-lasting deal so my party can bring the creature along for the entire dungeon crawl :) That way I don't have to make the party stand guard when I decide to spontaneously planar-bind a devil in some dark, dank dungeon-room, because I realized I needed one, all of a sudden :)

-Nearyn

EDIT:

Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.

I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]


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Marthkus wrote:


Now that I look at the cha mods more closely, they are pretty low. Wizard is still fairly useless at planar binding until they get 8th level spells.

Ok you really need to read that:

1) Make the circle perfectly, so no spell resistance to get free.
2) Summon the outsider.
3) Cast geas on the outsider and told him to retrieve an item from outside of the circle. The outsider is currently screwed at this point.
4) Cast bestow curse on the outsider to give him a -4 to all attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks.
5) Cast bestow curse on the outsider to give him a -6 Charisma.
Waited a few days for the geas to break the outsider, giving him a -12 to all ability scores.
6) Cast eagle's splendor on yourself for +4 Charisma.
7) Cast some fear effects on him to give him the shaken condition.

And then do the charisma check (even with penalties) to make the outsider your b%~+$.

Sure it needs a few days to work but it doesn't require maintance and attention during those days, you also don't need to do all of the above; you just do as many as you need.

PS. This list isn't mine, it's Aerelinth's (i hope i spelled the username correctly).


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Damian Magecraft wrote:
But since Universalist is the default for wizards and arcane bloodline is the default for sorcerer I thought the comparison accurate.

Universalist is no more the default than Necromancy or Evocation, or any of the other schools. It's just one choice of many (and the worst one by a mile).

Your comparison is about as accurate as Michael J. Fox standing in a hurricane at 500 yards with a slingshot.


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
It's the opposed cha check that is the problem with wizards. Before 8th level spells, their chance of passing the check needed to actually get an outsider to do something rarely passes 50% (and no, you don't get to assume +6 from the spell, unless you are spending money like that from planar ally, since that bonus is entirely up to GM fiat)

I'm more than happy to spend a triffling 3000 gold pieces for my planar binding.

So your sorcerer can spontaneously summon an outsider and plea-bargain for minor favors all day, if you want to :)

Meanwhile I'll be getting a scroll of 'moment of prescience' for a delicious +15 to my charisma check and forcing a really beneficial, long-lasting deal so my party can bring the creature along for the entire dungeon crawl :) That way I don't have to make the party stand guard when I decide to spontaneously planar-bind a devil in some dark, dank dungeon-room, because I realized I needed one, all of a sudden :)

-Nearyn

If by minor favor you mean "be my servant for 1 day/CL" roll opposed cha check with no additional bonus from the spell and still reliably do it because your a sorcerer.

I'm beginning to feel like you don't understand how planar binding works...


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.
I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]

Now try doing something at 11 or 12.


leo1925 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:


Now that I look at the cha mods more closely, they are pretty low. Wizard is still fairly useless at planar binding until they get 8th level spells.

Ok you really need to read that:

1) Make the circle perfectly, so no spell resistance to get free.
2) Summon the outsider.
3) Cast geas on the outsider and told him to retrieve an item from outside of the circle. The outsider is currently screwed at this point.
4) Cast bestow curse on the outsider to give him a -4 to all attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks.
5) Cast bestow curse on the outsider to give him a -6 Charisma.
Waited a few days for the geas to break the outsider, giving him a -12 to all ability scores.
6) Cast eagle's splendor on yourself for +4 Charisma.
7) Cast some fear effects on him to give him the shaken condition.

And then do the charisma check (even with penalties) to make the outsider your b*&%$.

Sure it needs a few days to work but it doesn't require maintance and attention during those days, you also don't need to do all of the above; you just do as many as you need.

PS. This list isn't mine, it's Aerelinth's (i hope i spelled the username correctly).

Bestow curse is a touch spell. Let's not disrupt the diagram/put our hand into attack range. Spectral hand is needed. At that point though you have to have two spells bust through SR in a row. This can cost a lot of slots.

Geas still takes days to work

All these spells will only make the outsider hate you.

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ZanzerTem wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
But since Universalist is the default for wizards and arcane bloodline is the default for sorcerer I thought the comparison accurate.

Universalist is no more the default than Necromancy or Evocation, or any of the other schools. It's just one choice of many (and the worst one by a mile).

Your comparison is about as accurate as Michael J. Fox standing in a hurricane at 500 yards with a slingshot.

Your comment is certainly beating a dead horse. Several posts have addressed this (misinformed) comment about "default" schools/bloodlines.

Maybe it's just poor translation of tone via text communication, but I found the last part of your comment to be rude.

On a brighter note, I find the recent turn toward discussing planar binding to be fascinating, as I am learning a lot about a subject I know little about. Thanks Nearyn/Marthkus.


Marthkus wrote:
I'm beginning to feel like you don't understand how planar binding works...

Mate, I know the ins and outs of planar binding like the back of my hand. Let me remind you that I was not the one who had to be told that an 8-charisma wizard can laugh his way through most planar-bindings. I was not the one who claimed it was "child's play" for "most outsiders". You have offered no argument in your favor, just woven claims out of thin air. I have been a fan of, and avid player of conjurers since I started playing tabletop games, and I promise you I know my way around my favorite spells (The Planar Binding-Chain).

You argue that "be my servant for 1day/CL" will not give you any penalties? Your GM is very lenient in that case. If you played at my GMs table, you'd get saddled with a penalty for that deal, and I'd like to see you do it more 'reliably' than my conjurer ;)

-Nearyn

ADDITON, because I simply had to:

Marthkus! Stop writing and start reading!

Marthkus wrote:

Nearyn wrote:

Marthkus wrote:

Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.

I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]

Now try doing something at 11 or 12.

But THIS...

Nearyn wrote:

Sorry mate, but I don't think there's merit to your argument. At level 11 when I can start using the standard planar binding, the only 12HD(or less) creature I can find who can even beat the DC at all is a succubus, and she needs to roll an 18 on a d20 to succeed. That's pretty darn acceptable for my 8-charisma wizard, wouldn't you say?

And at the level where I cast greater planar binding, I -will- have charisma boosting items(and CL boosting items) not to mention my preparations will be even more extensive. There is simply no way a creature is breaking out of my outsider traps, even on a roll of 20. I won't allow it.

If a creature has such a high CHA that I cannot safely bind it(I don't know what creature that would be, but let's assume that there is one), I won't call it(YES! I know you're there Knowledge(planes) +6 billion, now could you please be quiet, I'm trying to write here!)

I'm afraid I must maintain that Sorcerers do not make better planar binders than Wizards.

-Nearyn

...entire post addresses EXACTLY a level 11 wizard. If you don't even read it when people post, that is not much incentive to continue a conversation with you :)


Nearyn wrote:
You argue that "be my servant for 1day/CL" will not give you any penalties? Your GM is very lenient in that case. If you played at my GMs table, you'd get saddled with a penalty for that deal, and I'd like to see you do it more 'reliably' than my conjurer ;)

This is what I'm talking about. There are no penalties for this kind of request, just a lack of bonuses.

The +0 to +6 is bonus to your roll. Outside of some heavy house-ruling, this kind of request at worse gives you a +0 bonus to your cha check.


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Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.
I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]
Now try doing something at 11 or 12.

Please try actually reading the dude's posts before you ask him to do something he's already proven to you that he can easily do.


Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
You argue that "be my servant for 1day/CL" will not give you any penalties? Your GM is very lenient in that case. If you played at my GMs table, you'd get saddled with a penalty for that deal, and I'd like to see you do it more 'reliably' than my conjurer ;)

This is what I'm talking about. There are no penalties for this kind of request, just a lack of bonuses.

The +0 to +6 is bonus to your roll. Outside of some heavy house-ruling, this kind of request at worse gives you a +0 bonus to your cha check.

Do not confuse your opinion with RAW. The wording of the planar-binding chain explicitly puts the boni or penalties in the GMs hands.

-Nearyn


Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.
I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]
Now try doing something at 11 or 12.
Please try actually reading the dude's posts before you ask him to do something he's already proven to you that he can easily do.

That's to bind the creature. Not the opposed cha check to convince it to do things in a timely manner.


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
You argue that "be my servant for 1day/CL" will not give you any penalties? Your GM is very lenient in that case. If you played at my GMs table, you'd get saddled with a penalty for that deal, and I'd like to see you do it more 'reliably' than my conjurer ;)

This is what I'm talking about. There are no penalties for this kind of request, just a lack of bonuses.

The +0 to +6 is bonus to your roll. Outside of some heavy house-ruling, this kind of request at worse gives you a +0 bonus to your cha check.

Do not confuse your opinion with RAW. The wording of the planar-binding chain explicitly puts the boni or penalties in the GMs hands.

RAW there is only a bonus. No penalties are mentioned.


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I always thought that the wizard was more strategically flexible and the sorcerer was more tactically flexible, and a well played and optimized character of either class was so powerful that the differences just ended up being cosmetic.

At any rate, neither require modification.


Marthkus wrote:
Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.
I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]
Now try doing something at 11 or 12.
Please try actually reading the dude's posts before you ask him to do something he's already proven to you that he can easily do.
That's to bind the creature. Not the opposed cha check to convince it to do things in a timely manner.

I'm not gonna count the amount of times I've written "moment of prescience" in this thread, but know that it's enough that you SHOULD realize by now that I can get any deal I want to, as long as my DM does not fiat me.

-Nearyn

EDIT: About the penalties and bonuses. QUITE RIGHT! Let me apologize for failure to express what I'm trying to get across! When I say penalties, I mean "bonus to the bound creature's charisma check". There. that should make that fairly easy to understand.


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Also this notion that more time makes you better at binding is false, unless you are going by days needed to make the opposed cha check once per day. Both wizards and sorcerers only take 20 minutes to bind a creature.
I can promise you, with complete certainty, that if you give my level 16 conjurer a week, I will planar bind -any- 18HD(or less) outsider(as printed) and force any deal the DM will permit within the planar binding rules. Time makes for more safe planar-binding when your preparations improve your chances over time >:]
Now try doing something at 11 or 12.
Please try actually reading the dude's posts before you ask him to do something he's already proven to you that he can easily do.
That's to bind the creature. Not the opposed cha check to convince it to do things in a timely manner.
I'm not gonna count the amount of times I've written "moment of prescience" in this thread, but know that it's enough that you SHOULD realize by now that I can get any deal I want to, as long as my DM does not fiat me.

Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. You can't count on access to that at 11 or 12.


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Playing Wizard is practically a game in-and-of-itself. It's about strategy. If a wizard player can figure out what the party is going up against (or, as is often the case, the GM simply tells them as part of the plot), he will almost always fair better than a sorcerer because he can pick exactly the right spells exactly the right number of times.

Now, the key here is the planning part. A wizard is weaker than a sorcerer in the hands of an unskilled player, but in the hands of a good strategist, a wizard is vastly more useful. That's why I don't let my friend Rez play them.

Unless one's GM is really into "attrition" combats that turn into drawn-out slug fests, or you're going to be in 3 or more combats per day, the extra SpD a sorc gets don't matter that much. Unless, of course, the strategy is to just nuke the enemy with all of your spells as fast as possible, instead of supplementing it with school powers or non-magic tactics, in which case I refer you again to my first point.


Marthkus wrote:
Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. You can't count on access to that at 11 or 12.

I'm sorry, what?! I cannot rely on getting a 3000gp item for an 11th level character? Oh, but if that's the case, then allow me to also make up arbitrary nonsense :D

You are not allowed to count on the GM not fiating that your sorcerer cannot learn planar binding. Also he may fiat out paragon surge! :D See, if we both make up arbitrary nonsense, everybody loses :)

-Nearyn


Nearyn wrote:
About the penalties and bonuses. QUITE RIGHT! Let me apologize for failure to express what I'm trying to get across! When I say penalties, I mean "bonus to the bound creature's charisma check". There. that should make that fairly easy to understand.

Fair.

The RAW says the GM assigns a +0 to +6 bonus to the check. I personally feel that bonus is to your check. You can rule that that bonus goes to the outsiders check. I would argue that by RAW it does not go to both, and that the bonus does not switch depending on the situation.

Now as to why I think the bonus goes to the player not the outsider. Because I think it makes more sense that offering money and compensation makes you more likely to bind the outsider, not that you take an automatic -6 effective penalty if you don't offer reward. But that is RAI opinion. Only rules forum logic can argue by RAW that it goes one way or the other.


Marthkus wrote:

The RAW says the GM assigns a +0 to +6 bonus to the check. I personally feel that bonus is to your check. You can rule that that bonus goes to the outsiders check. I would argue that by RAW it does not go to both, and that the bonus does not switch depending on the situation.

Now as to why I think the bonus goes to the player not the outsider. Because I think it makes more sense that offering money and compensation makes you more likely to bind the outsider, not that you take an automatic -6 effective penalty if you don't offer reward. But that is RAI opinion. Only rules forum logic can argue by RAW that it goes one way or the other.

Can I be completely honest for a moment? I did not expect such a levelheaded response from you. Thank you :)

Since you've shared your viewpoint, I'll share mine. In my view both sides get assigned a bonus to their check. If the check is heavily in your favor, you do not gain a bonus, and the creature gets a high bonus. That is the way my tables has always played it. I recognize, as you do, that this is our understanding of the RAW, not necessarily the one true way :)

My reason for thinking so is that it is described as an opposed check that gets a modifier. Since it does not spell out directly that I get the advantage and my enemy does not I've always assumed the worst case. I find that if I assume the worst case, I do not overestimate my characters' abilities.

-Nearyn


Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. You can't count on access to that at 11 or 12.

I'm sorry, what?! I cannot rely on getting a 3000gp item for an 11th level character? Oh, but if that's the case, then allow me to also make up arbitrary nonsense :D

You are not allowed to count on the GM not fiating that your sorcerer cannot learn planar binding. Also he may fiat out paragon surge! :D See, if we both make up arbitrary nonsense, everybody loses :)

Oh you can probably buy an 8th level scroll of some sort form a decent size city, but there is no guarantee that that spell is moment of prescience.

8th level spells are pretty up there. It's should be doable to find one scroll to learn the sell, but finding piles of them to bind creatures with, is a lower probability. Not to mention sorcerers don't need to spend piles of money to bind an outsider.


Damian Magecraft wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

1. A wizard can potently learn every spell instead of being limited to a set number of spell determined by level.

2. Wizards use INT as a casting stat so that means they get a lot more skill, and have a lot higher roll on a lot of important skills.

3. Wizards get access to spells one level earlier than a sorcerer

1: sound in theory. Unfortunately not in practical application. It has been my experience that GMs are deathly afraid of wizards gaining spells beyond what the charts/class level ups allow.

2: Assumes the Sorcerer cannot have a high INT as well not a selling point.

3: Again great in theory but when you only get 2 per level not a big seller.
I am starting to think the Wizard got shafted with the introduction of Bloodlines...

1. Don't make the assumption that your "experience" is typical.

The same could be said for your stance.

35 years of gaming (on both sides of the gm screen) and discussions with other players from all walks of life (over that 35 years) says my experiences are the norm.

Roughly same amount of time playing. Both sides of screen. Opposite experience. Every DM/GM I played with allowed the finding/purchasing of spellbooks, learning from scrolls, etc.

Many pre-written modules over those years featured spellbooks for the finding.

We could do this all day. My experience is the "norm" as far as I'm concerned.

I think you WANT the wizard to suck, either to "win" the argument or to justify some fairly hefty houserules. You go looking for suckage, and sure enough, you're bound to find it.


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Nearyn wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

The RAW says the GM assigns a +0 to +6 bonus to the check. I personally feel that bonus is to your check. You can rule that that bonus goes to the outsiders check. I would argue that by RAW it does not go to both, and that the bonus does not switch depending on the situation.

Now as to why I think the bonus goes to the player not the outsider. Because I think it makes more sense that offering money and compensation makes you more likely to bind the outsider, not that you take an automatic -6 effective penalty if you don't offer reward. But that is RAI opinion. Only rules forum logic can argue by RAW that it goes one way or the other.

Can I be completely honest for a moment? I did not expect such a levelheaded response from you. Thank you :)

Since you've shared your viewpoint, I'll share mine. In my view both sides get assigned a bonus to their check. If the check is heavily in your favor, you do not gain a bonus, and the creature gets a high bonus. That is the way my tables has always played it. I recognize, as you do, that this is our understanding of the RAW, not necessarily the one true way :)

My reason for thinking so is that it is described as an opposed check that gets a modifier. Since it does not spell out directly that I get the advantage and my enemy does not I've always assumed the worst case. I find that if I assume the worst case, I do not overestimate my characters' abilities.

My reason for thinking only one side gets the bonus: If both sides get the bonus then you can end up with situations where both get a +6 bonus, which seems odd to me.

But yeah. It is perfectly reasonable for a GM to rule either way.

EDIT: Speaking of GM rulings, I think GMs are more likely to let a sorcerer use planar binding since they have so few spells. That and binding magic carries risk and puts a lot of control in the GMs hand. It allows you to do cool things with less risk of the GM feeling like you are breaking the campaign.


To the OP's question...

I will not take into account specific concepts/builds/rp-reasons and a GM's habit of being negative towards a wizard.

To me it has always been the earlier/easier spell level/spell access. Supposedly you are after the "early power". That's the number one reason to pick the wizard over the sorcerer,I believe. "The sooner the better" saying applies here so if that's what you are looking for, you shouldn't be picking a Sorcerer. Unless of course you are starting at 18 level or something. Ok maybe even the "I can learn ALL magic" too. A detail can make the difference.

2 were the points I "hated" most as the Sorcerer I play right now, and that was without a wizard or other prepared caster, to make the painful comparison, at the table (I'm kinda a generalist). The first one was having to wait until 4th level to get second level spells. And believe me, later , it's not so bad because it's only every other level. But, boy, a 2 levels gap was a big pain in the @ss! The second was advancing to 2nd level and getting...a...single...0...lvl....spell....known....Oh yeah right...were I a human, I would have an extra 0 lvl spell known. woohoo!!!A wizard will not suffer from these, ever. And, he will be able to add extra spells to his spellbook apart from the 2/level. I'm not saying he will go crazy, I'm talking about a reasonable amount here.

I wont comment on casting stats since they are not standard for the Sorcerer (I might as well give him this one as a pro,that is, being able to select his casting stat.)

Class features are also greatly varied for each one with stronger and weaker choices for both so...no comments on these as well.

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