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One thing I'm having problems with is how to handle characters leveling up throughout the various adventures in AoW. Right now I have it setup that the characters have to spend a few days doing various research and such to level up.
However in the second and third adventures (Three Faces of Evil and Encounter at Blackwall Keep) there really isn't a good place to take a break and have the characters train up a level for a week, especially in the second adventure. I don't even think they will have the chance to leave the mine until they're done killing everything.
So what do you guys think? How did you handle this and what should I do?
One thing I'm having problems with is how to handle characters leveling up throughout the various adventures in AoW. Right now I have it setup that the characters have to spend a few days doing various research and such to level up.
What I've been doing and what I do in general) is allow levelling up overnight. The idea is that throughout the past level, each character has been training and refining their skills during downtime. After these days of adventuring, they've perfected that new feat, or increased their skill level, or finally mastered that new spell in their spellbook, or finally made sense of the new magical gibberish in their heads.
I find it keeps things moving along relatively smoothly. If you feel you MUST have some in-game training/study time, require the players to track a how many hours of training or studying they take every time they rest, and say that they cannot gain a new level until they have accumulated X hours, where X is your predetermined amount of training time.
Creative Director
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My personal opinion is that when you hand out XP, if a PC earns enough to gain a level, he should be able to level up there and then. The concept of "training time" is kind of archaic. Isn't all the time the PC spends adventuring "training"? Why would someone have to practice at gaining a level at some arbitrary point? Also, since PCs rarely all hit new levels at the same time (due to missed sessions, item creation, character deaths, ECLs, etc.) it can be annoying to have to basically shut down a campaign for half the party while the others have nothing to do.
Ask yourself this: do training times actually add to the fun of playing the game? Some may argue it adds to the realism, but realism isn't always a good model for fun. If the players seem to complain or react to training times with ambivilance or anger, you should ditch the concept even if you think, as a DM, it's more interesting.
I'm not currently running AOW (patiently waiting for hardcover) but i can tell you that in any campaign i've ever run, i tend to use the method mentioned above: leveling up after a nights rest. Characters are free to add points to any skill they already have, for new skills however they must seek training. Using swimming as an example, someone who doesn't know how to swim needs lessons to start. When they take the lessons, before or after leveling doesn't make a difference.
I like the Ding method favoured by computer games. When you get the xp you gain a level.
This was roleplayed really well in one game when a newly levelled fighter took down 3 enemies with one Whirlwind Attack. He just sheathed his sword, looked at the open-mouthed party members and said, "What? I've been trying that for ages and I finally pulled it off!"
Classic moment. :)
my group just hit 2nd lvl in the middle of whispering cairn and i let them lvl there and then. we just make the assumption that the character is practices and researching during all there off time and slowly gained an insight. it easy to assume if u just spent the last 2 day shooting arrows then u get better at it. i am thinkin of using the old system that chaosims call of cthulhu used which is when a PC used a skill it is ticked and only ticked skills can be improved. also measn that a lot of characters are now using more of there skills in the course of an adventure :)
Both are good. If they are in a town, say they take some time to train, learn some new stuff (maybe even roleplay a bit of it) and then they level. If they are on the road and there is not option.. level them. I sometimes rule that specific things cannot be gained unless they are trained (this is for rare things like new languages ect).
I go with leveling up overnight once the appropriate XP target has been reached. This makes things a little simpler to manage than tallying up XP encounter by encounter, and also fairer to spellcasters--since it's kind of inconvenient to take time out and prepare spells for those extra couple of daily slots they just gained.
To me, it's fairly easy to rationalize the idea that characters have been through a rigorous "basic training" of some sort, giving them the fundamentals of the various skills, feats, spellcasting abilities, and so forth, for their classes. At first level, they have lots of theory and quite a bit of practice, but very little of it in pressure situations, so they often have difficulty performing in pressure situations. As they "play the game," the little moves they had to concentrate hard on before gradually become instinctive--they develop muscle memory and intuition so that tasks that used to require taking 20 to perform reliably can be done by taking 10 or even automatically. Even if they don't have ranks in a skill, if it's a class skill, then it's something they've had some training in, but never really practiced enough to master.
I think the hardest class to work in to this way of doing things without bending the rules overly is the wizard. Sure the wizard gets two new spells per level, and you can rule that she's been experimenting and scrawling notes in her spellbook for months or years, before finally mastering them suddenly. But there's not necessarily time for the wizard to add those extra spells to the spellbook that make being a wizard worthwhile.
My own rule is that the player characters cannot level up until they've shared a round of drinks in a tavern (to celebrate their victory, naturally), and then had a good night's sleep (to sleep on it). It's a silly rule, but then it's a silly group of players - having purchased four of everything in the Equipment chapter, they once circumvented my restriction in an emergency situation by sitting down in the equipment-wagon before nightfall and breaking out four mugs and the barrel of ale.
Here's the dark of it for the clueless.
Sure petitioners are watching out for the living.
What do you think they are doing besides watching?
They sneek into a berks dreams and teach them things.
In a dream you can experience 10 years in 2 seconds
of prime Material time.
Thus some fighter can learn to be a wizard from poor dead
Uncle Marvin.
When Planescape comes back you might stick a bunch of schools
in the dreamlands where berks were expecting shifting pink mists.
In-game, I think a level requires a time of peace and reflection, where PCs unwind, step back, and consider what they've accomplished. I require players to take at least one evening to rest, reflect, and consider their path before they take a level. They must also be in a relatively safe setting, not catching a few Zs in a cave or out in the wild.
Out of game, I require at least one evening of relatively comfortable rest simply because I can't calculate XP on the fly and allow players to use the "Ding" method.
There should be plenty of time to rest and gain levels in between Three Faces of Evil and Blackwall Keep.
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While I agree that training is "archaic" in principle, the leveling system doesnt really support "ding" leveling well. Sure it seems ok for single classed characters but what happens when that 5th level fighter wants to take a level in wizard? It took the wizard in the party years to be given the title of 1st level wizard so why should the fighter get it overnight?
Ive been using a training system in my current campaign where each level requires some time and money until they reach 5th level at which point they begin to learn on their own. however this applies to class level not character level so if a character chooses to mutliclass his new level is going to cost some extra time (if he suffers an xp penalty for level seperation the time is doubled) until hes mastered the basics. Prestige classes require a sum of money to enter the first level of the class and a little time as they seek a trainer.
After reviewing the Age of Worms progression I can't see this working as well however. So Im considering using a mix of the two.
characters must spend 1 weeks time training and pay for a trainer (100gp) for the first two levels of a given class with a trainer of higher level. Once they pass 2nd level they can train themselves (1 week) until 5th level on a given class.
After 5th level characters advance over night.
Prestige classes require training for 1 week to gain 1st level in the class (with a trainer), after that a character can train himself overnight.
If a character requires training to level but cannot do so immediately they gain the HPs, BAB, and saves for their current level and gain everything else when they take time out to train.
I agree that a fighter should not be able to take a wizard level without some degree of a role-playing understanding between player and DM. Does the PC know any wizards? Has the PC ever taken cross-class ranks in knowledge arcana or spellcraft? Does the PC ever mingle with or ask questions of wizards?
Jumping to a different class complicates things concerning the role-playing aspects of leveling.
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Creative Director
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Another thing to keep in mind is that several of the Age of Worms adventrues are designed with the assumption that the PCs level up at some point in the middle of the adventure. This means that if you don't hand out XP until the end of the adventure, or require the PCs take "time out" to train (which isn't always a viable option in the middle of an adventure) your PCs will be finding themselves outclassed rather quickly.
I don't advocate handing out XP as it accrues, after every combat; that disrupts the flow of the game. I think the best way to handle it is to hand out XP at the end of every session, and if someone hits a new level at that point they get to level up before the next session.
As for multiclassing, I agree it's more fun if a PC roleplays his way into a new class; a wizard who wants to multiclass into fighter should play his wizard during the time before he levels up more as a combat mage, for example. But not everyone likes to roleplay; some players just want to max out their PCs. It's not fair to these players to force them to play the game in a way they don't enjoy it.
Yeah, the training thing was a dilemna for me too, as I have always used it in some aspect. Since I always calculate XP after the session, and I don't allow PC's to level up during a session. It has become that you simply level up between sessions if you have XP. Example in 3FoE my group hit level 4 after a harrowing battle in the main temple. (Were my PC's made the bad mistake of splitting up- 3 three of them falling into Theldricks Ambush, while other two were locked out of the room. Thankfully some good rolls and quick thinking prevented the apparent TPK.) Since they cleared the entire area and the nights game came to a close, they are safe to rest there and continue on at 5th level when we start next time. Leveling up for us has become more of an organic progression as the players naturally evolve as it's always taking place outside the game.
While I agree that training is "archaic" in principle, the leveling system doesnt really support "ding" leveling well. Sure it seems ok for single classed characters but what happens when that 5th level fighter wants to take a level in wizard? It took the wizard in the party years to be given the title of 1st level wizard so why should the fighter get it overnight?
Who says the "fighter" hasn't been studying magic just as long as the "wizard?" It just took him longer to actually exhibit measurable magical abilities because of all that combat training he was focusing on.
The same theory could be placed on a 5th level wizard who suddenly takes a level of fighter. He was practicing his swordplay for years, but his skill developed slower than the fighter because he focused more on his spellcasting.
This type of explanation could be applied at character creation as part of the character's background or, if your players aren't sure where they want to take their character from the start, could be applied in hindsight. Does it really matter if the end effect is the same?
If you want realism (I hate that stuff) just say they learn
spells from the NPC wizards in it.
This means they make a spell book in down time.
It will only contain spells from NPC wizards.
The spells they learn going up are spells the NPC wizards gave them.
If that does not work for you, reconsider my theory about ghosts and dreams.
Maybe doctoring their backstory will work.
Leveling between gaming sessions is what we do.
After leveling characters everyone is too tired to game anymore anyway.
....
Maybe doctoring their backstory will work.
...
Yep, there is nothing that can't be justified with a little ret-con.
And that goes double for the DM :-)
IMHO, when considering using the "Ding" method of instaneous leveling-up, you have to consider 3<b>*</b> main things:
1. The DM's extra prep time. Now it doesn't take that much to have the experience by encounter already figured out, but it is a bit of prep time. And most DM's are short on prep time as it is in my experience.
2. The Player's extra prep time. As the DM, I'm willing to put that extra prep time in, if the players follow through with their end of the bargain and have their characters figured out at least one character level in advance. Preferably with a new sheet already written up and okayed by the DM. Now I'm a bit of a geek, and I know pretty much how my character is going to advance for at least 3-4 levels in advance, so this wouldn't be a big deal for me, but I know not everyone plans that far ahead.
Basically, I don't mind the extra prep time, but I refuse to call a pizza break just so the newly leveled up mage can pick his new spells, etc. If it isn't going to slow the game down to swap character sheets, then I'm willing to use "Ping" leveling if that is what the group as a whole wants to do.
3. The group has to live with me playing video game leveling up music after every encounter in which someone gains a level. Preferably Final Fantasy music, but I'm open to requests ;-)
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<b>*</b> 3 Main things aside from the "realism" complaints, but hey, we're talking about learning to cast better fireballs, etc, so I don't consider "realism" to be a valid argument, but to each his own. Now internal consistency is a different matter altogether from "realism."
I think the hardest class to work in to this way of doing things without bending the rules overly is the wizard. Sure the wizard gets two new spells per level, and you can rule that she's been experimenting and scrawling notes in her spellbook for months or years, before finally mastering them suddenly. But there's not necessarily time for the wizard to add those extra spells to the spellbook that make being a wizard worthwhile.
Peruhain of Brithondy,
One way to approach it is to remove the stricture that a wizard must transcribe the spells from captured spell books into his own to memorize them without penalty (i.e. the Spellcraft check detailed in the PHB pg 178). After all, a wizard using Read Magic, is translating the spell, via magic, into a form he or she can read and understand. The writing remains such to him or her after the use of the spell. You may still want to require the initial Spellcraft roll to learn the spell, but remove the one-day studying time. Maybe revise it to one hour per spell level (with 0 level spells taking 30 minutes)?
Now the wizard can develop his or her spell repertoire more easily at the penalty of extra encumbrance via the tomes of magic carried. Makes those bags of holding much more desirable. :-)
I hope the above is useful.
Good gaming,
Mark
Want to talk internal consistancy?
All arcane spells are written in Draconic.
How can the same spell written in Filge's spellbook be different in a PCs spellbook?
Just let characters take 20 to understand any spell they
have unlimited access to for at least a day.
I tried to think about it and my brain threw up yet again.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Want to talk internal consistancy?
All arcane spells are written in Draconic.
How can the same spell written in Filge's spellbook be different in a PCs spellbook?
Just let characters take 20 to understand any spell they
have unlimited access to for at least a day.
I tried to think about it and my brain threw up yet again.
This is explained in the SRD:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.So, the notation Filge uses is not identical to the notation another wizard would use.
Also, taking 20 is not possible when there is a chance of failure, and not understanding a spell consitutes failure. You are also unable to prepare a spell that's not already in your own spellbook (mastering a spellbook, per Complete Arcane, is another option but is time-consuming)
Russ
The point being time consuming.
I still don't understand that explaination.
It's magic. It's a DM call.
As they go up a level they get 2 more spells in their spellbook.
Either they have to track down someone to put thoes 2 spells
in there or they suddenly understand 2 more spells enough to
write them in there.
I have no problem with 2 spells magically appearing in their
spell book if it means they don't have to teleport home and
miss the rest of the Spire of Long Shadows adventure.
Manzorian will be off doing something else when they come
back early.
How else would you handle it?
Goth Guru,
I thought my initial approach struck a nice balance between allowing a wizard to broaden their selections with the slight draw back of some time being expended to learn the spells and having the burden of carrying multiple tomes that make up their spell repertoire.
As for the 2 free spells a wizard is entitled to, I always presume that the wizard has been working on those spells in the off camera or glossed over time that typically occurs in a campaign (i.e. while traveling, in the evenings before bed, etc.). Those 2 free spells are always immediately available to the wizard upon gaining his or her level.
As to allowing even faster acquisitions of new spells, the time frame required for the wizards should be determined by you and your group as to what is going to give you the most enjoyment. I agree that in a high paced game, where the heroes are on the move to keep pace against the clock, the standard times in the PHB are counter productive. I have experienced this myself in other campaigns and after thinking about it again when reading this thread, I came up with my original post.
Now I think that while my original thoughts on wizards learning new spells from other sources are still valid (as they apply to my current game), I need to now look at the impact on the sorcerer class. After all, a sorcerer trades breadth of spell knowledge for the ability of multiple castings. A wizard trades multiple castings for increased breadth. By allowing wizards the opportunity to increase their breadth faster, a balancing factor needs to be introduced for the sorcerer.
So, maybe instead of only being able to change out one known spell at the even levels beginning at 4 (6, 8, 10, etc), I could allow more spells to be changed out at those levels (maybe equal to their intelligence modifier), or allow one known spell to be changed every level starting at 4th. That way I am allowing the sorcerer an opportunity for a little more variety (though his or her spell choices are still locked in after each adjustment) to make up for the wizard being able to know many more spells in a shorter amount of time. I’ll have to give this some more thought.
Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is to change the ideas concerning spell acquisition to what fits you and your group’s style of play. Just try and watch out for possible unexpected repercussions of those changes. Most importantly, have fun.
Good gaming,
Mark
I agree with everything in the above post.
The free spells in any form only should happen in going up
levels.
Also in the continuing education category, if a sorcerer
has access to people or spell books, only such spells can
be substituted for existing spells no longer needed.
Only one such spell substitution per level and not
retroactively. Never two or more no matter how many missed opportunities.
Homer,"Every time I learn something new it pushes something out of my head!"
Marcos--thanks for the suggestion. I'm already considering various house rule solutions to shorten the time-span, at least for AOW and similar time-driven campaigns. I think it's not unreasonable to shorten the total time to learn and transcribe a spell from another wizard's spellbook to 1 day (from effectively two in the RAW as I read them), as long as you make the spellcraft check, etc.
There definitely needs to be some balance vs. the sorcerer class, and I'm not sure maxing out at 4 spells per day is enough of a difference. I have been playing a wizard character in a homebrew campaign, though, and it has been rather frustrating at low levels when the party battlemage just launches offensive spells right and left that are better than what I have available. But, I'm discovering the fighter-types like me because I can buff them, and now that I've managed to purchase a couple of wands I'm not reduced to wasting crossbow bolts because I'm out of useful spellcasting options.
I guess the bottom line is, if you're DMing for wizard PCs in AoW, you've got to keep in mind the special needs of the class if you're using RAW, or you need to come up with a workable house rule for the campaign.