I didn't feel there were enough paladin threads soooooo.
Ok lets address the code system and vulnerability to falling, and what we can do to fix these problems.
Personal House rules of mine involve completely nixing the code of conduct section, and expanding the alignments to Any Good.
Conversely I have mirrored that for the antipaladin, nixing code of conduct and expanding the alignment to Any Evil.
This fix has really not shown to have any issues, aside from some spells and divine bond abilities, but nothing a little dip into the cleric and inquisitor spell and ability lists won't fix instantaneously.
Other things to look at are incorporating things from 3.5, such as Unearthed Arcana's paladin variants for all 4 extreme alignments. It requires a lot more work, but some people like it.
Myself, I prefer widening the options, and I really like that the Grey Guard in Complete Scoundrel could eventually smite any alignment, and had the fluff that basically your faith trusted you enough to make your own decisions. I also really liked the expanded list of class skills.
In fact, the only thing I didn't like about that class was that it slowed down the spellcasting progression, otherwise I think it would be a perfect template to tack onto a 'grey paladin' class.
If you are looking for a true overhaul, I would recommend starting with the base being our paladin we have, and removing all the alignment related stuffs, then have them tooled to fit his deity choice like a cleric. Smite really isn't that OP compared to a lot of things, and especially not the cavalier's challenge which doesn't require anything other than you really wanting to kill that guy.
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Personal thing that I do, and will always encourage my players to do:
Write your own code. Make it specific to what you believe your character should be, and work with your GM (and other players) that it fits with the group.
The only "simple" way is to play a warpriest or an inquisitor.
I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Alignment is a very significant part of a lot of D&D. Reading too deep into any of it happens a lot, the only real thing is that with a role playing game, such a thing as alignment is subjective. Whether it's paladins, monks, warprirests, whoever.
Any and all divine classes have some tie to alignment with the one exception being the Ranger, who used to way back when. The paladins is the most restrictive because in the aforementioned when they happened to be extremely overpowered when compared to everything else like it.
Loosen the restrictions, and remove the chip from the DM's shoulder and the class is fine.
Another thing is to expand your play style and stop demanding that any and all classes be playable as Chaotic Neutral.
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I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Monks don't loose any abilities by going non-lawful. Clerics can switch gods. Druids just loose casting ability for 24 hours if they wear metal, and any neutral isn't really limiting any options for RP.
Paladins loose everything forever if they become non-LG. That's the difference.
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Play with players that prefer mostly good behavior, and who think that getting up to shenanigans behind the paladin's back is only fun when the paladin doesn't find out.
As a paladin player, have a sense of humor about people working around your code, and appreciate their courtesy.
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I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Monks don't lose any abilities by going non-lawful. Clerics can switch gods. Druids just lose casting ability for 24 hours if they wear metal, and any neutral isn't really limiting any options for RP.
Paladins lose everything forever if they become non-LG. That's the difference.
She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
1. A paladin can regain her powers.
2. No one ever said it would be easy to play a paladin. The player needs to understand what it means to be a paladin - not merely good, but a shining example.3. The GM needs not to be a jerk and make paladins fall for trivial reasons. If the paladin is on the verge of doing something bad, she might sense a rumbling of the earth or something like that.
I don't see any need to fix the paladin, the code system might be modified a bit by creating specific 'order archetypes', the vulnerability to falling is quite exaggerated in a campaign where players have a little common sense and the GM isn't punishing players unnecessarily it is a RP-tool rather than a hindrance.
I had one 'fallen' paladin in all my campaigns for the last 20 years or so and that was a result of a paladin claiming an artifact (rod of seven parts). As a GM I gave him powers aligned with Law rather than Good and restored his other paladin powers after a while.
Occasionally I did take away the highest level of spells a priest or paladin could cast though, sent bad omens and signs that were inconvenient to the character. On the other hand I usually go out of my way to reward good RP by immersing the characters into the story, tailor make magical items for the character and have them encounter helpful NPCs more often.
Current generations of players have trouble with playing lawful stupid, it is supposed to be troublesome if you do not enjoy the challenges please do not play the class, if you do no have a GM that can handle paladin players well.. do not play the class. It is imo not a problem with the class but specific players or GMs.
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I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Monks don't lose any abilities by going non-lawful. Clerics can switch gods. Druids just lose casting ability for 24 hours if they wear metal, and any neutral isn't really limiting any options for RP.
Paladins lose everything forever if they become non-LG. That's the difference.
She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.1. A paladin can regain her powers.
Not if they are no longer LG. DMs have a habit of changing your alignment for you if your actions don't match their definition of LG. Atonement doesn't work if you DM says you are now NG because you broke the laws of the unjust country to free the lawfully owned slaves there.
Not if they are no longer LG. DMs have a habit of changing your alignment for you if your actions don't match their definition of LG. Atonement doesn't work if you DM says you are now NG because you broke the laws of the unjust country to free the lawfully owned slaves there.I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Monks don't lose any abilities by going non-lawful. Clerics can switch gods. Druids just lose casting ability for 24 hours if they wear metal, and any neutral isn't really limiting any options for RP.
Paladins lose everything forever if they become non-LG. That's the difference.
She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.1. A paladin can regain her powers.
Nothing works if the DM doesn't say that it works.
Find a better argument.
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]Nothing works if the DM doesn't say that it works.
Find a better argument.
The problem is that no other class is as open to being destroyed by the DM disagreeing on what it means to be the class as the Paladin.
The paladin requires a level of trust between the player and DM and for the Player and DM to be perfectly in sync with the appropriate way to behave as a paladin.
If a player sees a Barbarian as Bruce Banner for every day adventuring but Hulking out during rage, and the DM sees the Barbarain as an uneducated brute, he doesn't lose class abilities if he tries to be smart and follow the law of wherever he is if he isn't raging.
The Paladin does lose his class abilities if the DM disagrees with any action you take. Unless you have been playing with the same DM for years and know that they feel the same way about paladins as you do, the risk vs reward for playing a paladin is out of alignment.
The warpriest and inquisitor fill the same role and RP niches as a paladin without any of the alignment/code violations that cause all these paladin threads to pop up.
I love it when Gms make me fall. I get to play my anti-paladin :3
Naw, but then you forget to kick that Puppy and you're back to being a Paladin again.
I think Golarion paladins need to come with a reversible surcoat, so that the hourly alignment changes can be displayed easily.
The Paladin does lose his class abilities if the DM disagrees with any action you take.
This sounds like a player problem, not being able to actually RP a LG character more than a "DM is a big fat meanie!" kind of statement.
It really isn't that hard to RP a paladin.
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The Paladin does lose his class abilities if the DM disagrees with any action you take.This sounds like a player problem, not being able to actually RP a LG character more than a "DM is a big fat meanie!" kind of statement.
It really isn't that hard to RP a paladin.
It a communication and expectations problem. Sometimes that is the DM, sometimes it's the player, and sometimes it both.
It really isn't that hard to RP your idea of a paladin. It can be hard as hell to RP *someone else's* idea of a Paladin, when they don't tell you what that is until you fall.
The Paladin does lose his class abilities if the DM disagrees with any action you take.This sounds like a player problem, not being able to actually RP a LG character more than a "DM is a big fat meanie!" kind of statement.
It really isn't that hard to RP a paladin.
My favorite list of Paladin expectations all came from one DM:
1. No backing off ever. If you even do a tactical retreat you are dishonorable.2. No non-lethal damage. Want to be a merciful guy? Too bad, beat them to near death and then Lay on Hands them.
Needless to say we didn't see eye to eye.
The Paladin does lose his class abilities if the DM disagrees with any action you take.This sounds like a player problem, not being able to actually RP a LG character more than a "DM is a big fat meanie!" kind of statement.
It really isn't that hard to RP a paladin.
It a communication and expectations problem. Sometimes that is the DM, sometimes it's the player, and sometimes it both.
It really isn't that hard to RP your idea of a paladin. It can be hard as hell to RP *someone else's* idea of a Paladin, when they don't tell you what that is until you fall.
In all cases, the DM not imposing his own BS that isn't written in the code is the solution.
The player can have as strict of a personal code as he wants.
There really is no problem on the player side until he starts wanting to do things that aren't LG.
It is the subjective, unwritten codes of conduct that really screw over players. It's the reason I DM instead of play anymore.
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From what I've seen in 3.X/PF, both from personal experience and from stories told by others, ranging from other members of this very forum to close friends of mine, 80% of all Paladin problems are actually a GM problem.
Those GM who forget that the Great Forces of GOOD are supposed to be, you know, Good. Not divine jerk waiting for their chance to shout "GOTCHA!" at one of their holiest servants/allies.
Even where it's the player's fault, it can often be traced back to the player being too afraid to act as anything other than Lawful Stupid because one his GMs is/was an overbearing ass.~
I've seen Paladins fall because:
- They used a ranged weapon.
- They cursed at someone ("Screw you, you stupid elf!" or something like that).
- They refused to give back the money they made in a poker game.
- They hired a prostitute.
- They told an evil king that the man he was holding hostage was dead. Because apparently, lying so that the man can live in peace is worse than condemning an innocent man to a life of unfair persecution.
The Code of Conduct exists to guide Paladins so that they become the best person they can be, not to punish them. If the Code stops a Paladin from doing good, it has failed its purpose and should be ignored, at least momentarily, without any consequences to the Paladin. After all, he may be ignoring the words of his code, but he's still following its spirit and teachings.
I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons? Ban those too?
Alignment is a very significant part of a lot of D&D. Reading too deep into any of it happens a lot, the only real thing is that with a role playing game, such a thing as alignment is subjective. Whether it's paladins, monks, warprirests, whoever.
Any and all divine classes have some tie to alignment with the one exception being the Ranger, who used to way back when. The paladins is the most restrictive because in the aforementioned when they happened to be extremely overpowered when compared to everything else like it.
Loosen the restrictions, and remove the chip from the DM's shoulder and the class is fine.
Another thing is to expand your play style and stop demanding that any and all classes be playable as Chaotic Neutral.
Paladin restriction goes way beyond alignment.
The big problem with the code is that it's a list of things you CANNOT do. Whenever things are phrased this way, people have a tendency to see what they can get away with.
It would be better to phrase it as what they MUST do, which is to protect the innocent, punish the wicked, and not use under-handed means (lying, poison, etc. . .).
You can say that they're really the same thing, but they're not. The original code states that they have to respect legitimate authority, so this automatically starts the debate on what's legitimate. Under the code I proposed, there's no debating that an evil king that oppresses his subjects should be brought down.
After that it really just boils down to the order-of-operations. If the evil king is the only thing that keeps the even worse neighboring nation from invading, then target A = Worse kingdom and target B = evil king.
Remove the code and lawful alignment restriction. Done.
Personal House rules of mine involve completely nixing the code of conduct section, and expanding the alignments to Any Good.
Conversely I have mirrored that for the antipaladin, nixing code of conduct and expanding the alignment to Any Evil.
This fix has really not shown to have any issues, aside from some spells and divine bond abilities, but nothing a little dip into the cleric and inquisitor spell and ability lists won't fix instantaneously.
Remove the code and lawful alignment restriction. Done.
In my world the requirement is that the Paladin has to match the alignment of their deity exactly (not one off like Clerics) and has to exemplify that deities beliefs.
I didn't feel there were enough paladin threads soooooo.
Ok lets address the code system and vulnerability to falling, and what we can do to fix these problems.
Remove them completely, along with the alignment restriction. Problem solved!
I guess monks, clerics, and druids also do not have self destruct buttons?
They shouldn't.
The biggest problem has to be misunderstanding. The best way to clear this is to talk it out. My last Pal was hardcore LG with no real humor, the foil of our Rogue jokester. When he got himself killed, the player came back as a P of another deity with a lighter hand. Arguing bogus theology while raiding dungeons was a hoot!
^I should hope the 4th one on your list is an automatic given.
I wasn't aware that paladins needed any fixing. I played an evil PC once, ONCE and had a paladin archnemesis. Never again.
Anywho, I don't consider the Paladin's code of ethics to be a vulnerability; it's more of a loose guideline and a recommendation on how to act. Paladins aren't robots. They're people and they have bad days. What makes them good is that even when they are on their lowest, they can be counted on to do good. Make amends where she failed previously.
If the DM feels the paladin's attitude to be inadequate, make her repent before making her fall. Send an NPC to deliver the 'failure to follow ethics' notice.
Kinda like how in the bible King David totally snatched a married woman and had the husband killed, but he got real stern talking-to from a prophet (whose name I forget) and later the son from that relationship turns out to be King Solomon. People make mistakes.
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Remove the code and lawful alignment restriction. Done.In my world the requirement is that the Paladin has to match the alignment of their deity exactly (not one off like Clerics) and has to exemplify that deities beliefs.
I like that idea, it's interesting.
2. No one ever said it would be easy to play a paladin. The player needs to understand what it means to be a paladin - not merely good, but a shining example.
And here lies the dissonance.
Some people, for some reason, think that since a Paladin in-game is a paragon of good, the player should have a hard time playing him.
I see no reason why a game should ever be hard to play.
Not challenging, but actually difficult to play. Like you're playing a game where you use a controller but to walk you use the Bumpers and Triggers as arrow keys, the right stick to aim and the left stick to shoot, and to jump you need to press all the buttons at once.
That's dumb design.
So is requiring playing a Paladin being hard for the PLAYER for some arbitrary reason. It should not be hard to play a Paladin.
The character should have a hard time, moral dilemmas, evil creatures to stop.
The player is there to have fun and play a game, dammit.
Kinda like how in the bible King David totally snatched a married woman and had the husband killed, but he got real stern talking-to from a prophet (whose name I forget) and later the son from that relationship turns out to be King Solomon. People make mistakes.
Well... To be fair, kidnapping an woman and killing her husband is closer to "extremely evil act" than to "just a mistake".
Kinda like how in the bible King David totally snatched a married woman and had the husband killed, but he got real stern talking-to from a prophet (whose name I forget) and later the son from that relationship turns out to be King Solomon. People make mistakes.Well... To be fair, kidnapping an woman and killing her husband is closer to "extremely evil act" than to "just a mistake".
Yeah terrible example. The woman came willingly enough though. So poor, poor husband.
Oh I remember their names now the wife is Bathsheba and that would make the husband's name Uriah. King David sent Uriah to the front lines to be killed.
Anyhow, I don't remember Bathsheba or Solomon getting stoned to death so I'm pretty sure a LG guy can get away with it too. ...or not.
Damn old testaments so morally ambiguous.
Morally ambiguous doesn't really cover it. Different cultures have different standards of what is right and wrong; applying our current perspective on such issues just confuses it even more.
God agreed that David pulled a dick move iirc, so the current example here doesn't really work with what I was just saying, but whatever.
Morally ambiguous doesn't really cover it. Different cultures have different standards of what is right and wrong; applying our current perspective on such issues just confuses it even more.
God agreed that David pulled a dick move iirc, so the current example here doesn't really work with what I was just saying, but whatever.
Totally agree. Unless one was playing in a campaign world where every baby counted (and it was a HUGE part of the campaign), it probably won't fly.
Anyways my point is that people do bad things where they don't mean to. That doesn't make them any worse than what they are when they're having a good day. Being good, GOOD good, means you always work to be good, feeling always inadequate.
If you just have a quota of good deeds to do and tick off of a list, you probably ain't gonna last long being in the Good bracket.
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In 30+ years of playing and GMing, the only trouble I've ever had with paladins as-written was when the GM and/or player was being a jerk. (e.g. Being disruptive to other players, deliberately setting up no-win situations, withholding crucial information, taking something the player said out of context as being "in character" and not letting the player take it back, etc.)
I no longer play with jerks. Problem solved.
Also do not play with jerks.
This last is the real critical part.
Don't work with monkeys, don't play with jerks.
Honestly, the paladin should be right where it is forever. That way if you join a new group, and want to test the waters and understand if its a good fit. Play a paladin, see what happens. Then you have your answer.
I tell all my Paladin players they must follow the following code.
Always Keeps his word
Always Helps Others
Always Respects Authority, Law, Self-discipline and Honor
Avoids Lies
Avoids Cheating
Never Kill/Attack an Unarmed Foe
Never Charge an Unhorsed Opponent
Never Attack from behind
Never Harm an Innocent
Never Tortures for any reason
Never Kills for Pleasure
Never Betrays a Friend
Never Breaks the Law unless circumstances leave no other choice.
Breaking one of these once will not result in a Fall, Censure at the most (a single ability may fail him depending on which tenet was violated).
three violations of the same tenet may result in a visit from a High Priest, Inquisitor, or Fellow Paladin of his faith demanding atonement. (refusing atonement will result in a Fall and excommunication. see below)
Repeated willful violation of any or all of the tenets will result in a Fall as well as a Bounty placed on his head by his faith.
