I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?
I'm not sure about crossbows, since I've never used one, but shooting a rifle (or worse yet, musket) with only one hand just sounds silly... They aren't super heavy, but they're long and would be extremely unwieldy held in only a single hand. I dare say it would be nearly impossible to hold one steady enough to make a shot accurate beyond 10 to 15 feet.
I suppose the argument for allowing it with Crossbows is that they're slightly more balanced, but I do not know that from personal experience.
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This is correct. The weapons entries for crossbows specifically say they can be used one handed (with penalty), while the entries for rifle, shotgun, etc. do not. The specific rule trumps the general rule.
That being said, it makes sense thematically/cinematically (if not realistically) to fire a shotgun one handed and I see no reason why a house-rule friendly group couldn't implement something.
Personally, I don't know why crossbow recieve this ability as I have no experiecnce with them but from real life experience I can tell you attempting to fire a rifle or shotgun with one hand and expecting to actually hit anything is something that perhaps only the greatest of marksmen ever to live could expect to achieve. It's just not a thing people could do in real life. Not to mention the gun flying out of your hand as the recoil rips it from your grip.
Never having fired a crossbow I can't comment how realistic it is to allow it to be fired one handed, but for two handed firearms it totally makes sense.
Recoil and accuracy.
Firing a musket one-handed is both a hazard to your life and a guarantee of a miss.
and yet a crossbow's weight toward the tip makes it still possible to shoot in one hand.
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Like the above said - a crossbow has 0 recoil I could see a houserule for firing a musket one handed be -4 to hit and the musket gets to roll a disarm check at CMB+6 if it succeeds by 5 or more, it deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage to you as it hits you in the face on the way over your head.
Having fired a modern hunting crossbow, they weigh a ok amount (about 5 pounds, or 2.5 times the weight of a loaded handgun, but 2 pounds less than an unloaded Uzi), but it is all compact weight, and not spread over the length of a rifle/musket so would not affect aim nearly as much.
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and yet a crossbow's weight toward the tip makes it still possible to shoot in one hand.Recoil and accuracy.
Firing a musket one-handed is both a hazard to your life and a guarantee of a miss.
Have you ever fired either of those? I fired both.
I'd fire a crossbow one-handed - the accuracy would be crap, but at least my arm wouldn't be at risk of a sudden detachment from the rest of my body.
I'd never ever fire a musket single-handedly or even two-handedly without a fork. Accidental suicides are not my forte, I'm afraid. I'm not even touching the idea of accuracy when firing such a weapon one-handed.
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?
Go out in RL and fire a crossbow and a black powder musket and you will never ask this question again.
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?
Some numbers:
The muzzle energy of a medieval crossbow : 127 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a flintlock musket: 1727 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a matchlock musket: 1943 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of an M14 rifle: 2802 ft-lbs.
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?Go out in RL and fire a crossbow and a black powder musket and you will never ask this question again.
Some numbers:
The muzzle energy of a medieval crossbow : 127 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a flintlock musket: 1727 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a matchlock musket: 1943 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of an M14 rifle: 2802 ft-lbs.
Except that we have fighters who can strike up to 4 times with a heavy greatsword under 6 seconds, rogues who can escape explosions unharmed without moving an inch, wizards casting spells and clerics Healing repeatedtly... in addition of having many people with having ability scores of 15 or higher, when the standard is 10 across the board.
Oh, and it's possible to survive a fall from a 50,000 feet.
Seriously guys, physics are out of whack in D&D. Beside, a gunslinger could get an ability to shoot a musket one-handed... which he never gets, alongside an ability to avoid recoils from other firearms.
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Except that we have fighters who can strike up to 4 times with a heavy greatsword under 6 seconds, rogues who can escape explosions unharmed without moving an inch, wizards casting spells and clerics Healing repeatedtly...
You asked why and we supplied the reasons why. TONS and TONS of things in this game are based, limited and inspired by stuff in the real world. Simply because the game has magic and heroic or even even super heroic physical abilities is not a valid reason to ignore any thing, any time because 'OMG the world has magic!'.
Things are limited for the 2 reasons:
1) Game Balance
2) Thematic Concept
The writers thought (IMO) that gun recoil should be something reflected in the play of firearms. Partly to further differentiate firearms from muscle powered ranged weapons and partly to keep the real world differences represented in the game. It is one of the game play mechanics that help make guns FEEL like guns when played.
It could also be a play balance thing to prevent firearm abuse in game play.
Frankly, again IMO, the limitations written into 'things' in RPG's are as important to the play and flavor of the game and those 'things', as the abilities those 'things' give the player/characters. They make something feel/play/experience a certain way in the game which reinforces that things concept.
At the very basic level, Crossbows in pathfinder are pretty much like crossbows in real life. They hit hard, are slow to reload and a relatively physically fit person can hold a crossbow with one hand and fire it, albeit with less accuracy than a crossbow held in two hands.
As well, 2 handed guns in pathfinder are like 2 handed guns in real life. They hit hard, the are slow to reload (at the tech level pathfinder uses and is emulating from real life), and have such recoil that frankly no matter how strong you are the kick, if fired one handed, would ruin any real chance you have to hit your target and would put you at great risk for personal injury.
Guns in real life do X so pathfinder replicated that for guns in Pathfinder. So they would be guns and not something else.
Does that make sense?
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?Go out in RL and fire a crossbow and a black powder musket and you will never ask this question again.Some numbers:
The muzzle energy of a medieval crossbow : 127 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a flintlock musket: 1727 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a matchlock musket: 1943 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of an M14 rifle: 2802 ft-lbs.Except that we have fighters who can strike up to 4 times with a heavy greatsword under 6 seconds, rogues who can escape explosions unharmed without moving an inch, wizards casting spells and clerics Healing repeatedtly... in addition of having many people with having ability scores of 15 or higher, when the standard is 10 across the board.
Oh, and it's possible to survive a fall from a 50,000 feet.
Seriously guys, physics are out of whack in D&D. Beside, a gunslinger could get an ability to shoot a musket one-handed... which he never gets, alongside an ability to avoid recoils from other firearms.
And gunslingers could get an ability to fire pellets from their backsides, but I've yet to see rules published for such a feat. Feel free to homebrew it. : )
Except that we have fighters who can strike up to 4 times with a heavy greatsword under 6 seconds, rogues who can escape explosions unharmed without moving an inch, wizards casting spells and clerics Healing repeatedtly... in addition of having many people with having ability scores of 15 or higher, when the standard is 10 across the board.Some numbers:
The muzzle energy of a medieval crossbow : 127 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a flintlock musket: 1727 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of a matchlock musket: 1943 ft-lbs.
The muzzle energy of an M14 rifle: 2802 ft-lbs.
That's an argument for no rules at all. In which case, you can simply play with no rules at all -- I recommend the Amber diceless RPG -- and create the world as you see fit, with whatever limitations you want. Or no limitations whatsoever.
Obviously, the Pathfinder designers made a different decision.
The (actual, not felt) recoil of a firearm can be rather easily calculated. The formula is E=.5MV^2, where M is the mass of the weapon itself and V is the velocity of the projectile as it leaves the weapon.
When you take into account that the average velocity of a medieval crossbow bolt was less than 300 feet per second, while the muzzle velocity of an 1840s flintlock musket was 1700 feet per second, you can already see (even without knowing the mass of the weapon) that the gun is going to have an exponentially higher recoil.
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D&D was never consistent with realism anyway - back since the very first day Gary Gygax sat down to write the rules down, there were areas that were super turbo realistic, areas that were "yeah so it kind of reflects the reality, in a way" and pure banjo banana split zones.
I'd hazard an opinion that this inconsistency is one of the game's charms.
The (actual, not felt) recoil of a firearm can be rather easily calculated. The formula is E=.5MV^2, where M is the mass of the weapon itself and V is the velocity of the projectile as it leaves the weapon.Almost. The energy of the recoil would be .5*(massofbullet*velocityofbullet^2).
You're correct, sorry. I didn't remember it off-hand and the site referred to the 'bullet' as the 'weapon'. It didn't really sound right but I went with it anyway, heh.
The (actual, not felt) recoil of a firearm can be rather easily calculated. The formula is E=.5MV^2, where M is the mass of the weapon itself and V is the velocity of the projectile as it leaves the weapon.Almost. The energy of the recoil would be .5*(massofbullet*velocityofbullet^2).
Versus the mass of a crossbow bolt and it's velocity.
According to a little research musket balls weight 3 ounces or less and approximately 800 ft/s.
This would provide a ~2500 joules of energy, or approximately 1850 ft-lbs of force. Which matches the values posted earlier by Orfamay.
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?Because the rules say so.
No, the errata says so.
Have none of read the rules: There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced. Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category’s name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
I'll repeat: Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?Because the rules say so.
No, the errata says so.
Have none of read the rules: There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced. Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category’s name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
I'll repeat: Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
Where did you see that? I just downloaded the latest errata, and I didn't find that part.
Where did you see that? I just downloaded the latest errata, and I didn't find that part.I don't get it. Why can't you shoot, but not load, a musket or rifle with only one hand, when you can shoot a light or heavy crossbow?Because the rules say so.
No, the errata says so.
Have none of read the rules: There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced. Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category’s name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
I'll repeat: Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
It was always there if it isn't errata:
Look at Firearm Descriptionshttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms
It was always there if it isn't errata:
Look at Firearm Descriptions
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms
Wow, now I feel stupid...
Let me guess... you want an answer that leads up to dual wielding two muskets, right?
1) One hand on a rope to climb and the other shooting with a musket before sheating it and resuming climbing with 2 hands free.
2) Actually, I was thinking of a bulky guy with 2 culverins under his arms... except that each culverin would have been magically enhancement to avoid recoil, such as having the equivalent of an immovable rod attached to the cannon that activates upon firing, thus preventing recoil knock back.
There's a crew member in SEGA's Skies of Arcadia that uses culverins like that.
2) Actually, I was thinking of a bulky guy with 2 culverins under his arms... except that each culverin would have been magically enhancement to avoid recoil, such as having the equivalent of an immovable rod attached to the cannon that activates upon firing, thus preventing recoil knock back.
I don't even want to think about what would happen to the weapons if all of that energy doesn't have a place to go.
not sure if anyone mentioned it, but being unable to fire guns 1 handed is likely a balance thing. (that part was mentioned) If you could fire 2h firearms one handed, because hiting with penalties is not difficult, instead of giant threads about dual wielding double barrled pistols we would see giant threads about musket masters dual wielding double barreled muskets.
Simply saying you cant ever do it solves alot of problems.
not sure if anyone mentioned it, but being unable to fire guns 1 handed is likely a balance thing. (that part was mentioned) If you could fire 2h firearms one handed, because hiting with penalties is not difficult, instead of giant threads about dual wielding double barrled pistols we would see giant threads about musket masters dual wielding double barreled muskets.
Simply saying you cant ever do it solves alot of problems.
Nope because you can.
They only errated size, not one handing with firearms.
Originally, you could wield any size firearm (even colossal). This lead to the Samus, big blasting arm, build, but then they nerfed that size thing. But never touched one handing.
I don't even want to think about what would happen to the weapons if all of that energy doesn't have a place to go.
Into the bullet, obviously.
Asking "Why can't I do X" and then responding with "But I can do (list of unrealistic things that don't relate to the question)!" to every answer you receive.
Was the purpose to get an answer to a question or to complain about something that can just be houseruled as the GM sees fit? I wasn't satisfied with firearms as they were so I made them simple weapons, target flat-footed AC, cost 5% as much, and take twice as long to load. Buh-bam, never had to make a thread complaining about the.
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Actually, as per the RAW, you can shoot a musket or any other two handed gun with one hand. It's -4 to shoot. Pg. 137 of UC, in the first paragraph under FIREARM DESCRIPTIONS.
Light crossbows shoot at -2 if done one handed.
Heavy crossbows shoot at -4 if done one handed.
Didn't know that. Also didn't know that loading a crossbow provokes at AoO. I learn new stuff every day.