Okay, I need some opinions on something my GM did a while back. Here's the scenario, my character basically performed the perfect murder, killing someone in their sleep and leaving absolutely no evidence behind whatsoever. In fact, the character killed has been known to disappear for long periods of time (sometimes unexplained) and there's no reason to believe that the character isn't simply "missing" and not dead.
There's no signs of a struggle, no body to be found, no forced entry, I wasn't even in my own body when the murder was carried out. By the time anyone checked the person's room all magical aura's had long since dissipated. There were absolutely no witnesses, and since the target died in their sleep then even their departed soul is unaware of what happened. I also utilized an ability the GM had given me earlier that prevents any form of resurrection or reincarnation (even blocking wish and miracle).
My character is one that is virtually unheard of by all, all of his dealings are through a possessed body and nobody knows he's a possessed man. Even the man who was possessed only knows that he's missing memory of certain dates and times when he was possessed (and his piss poor int generally means he doesn't make any kind of connection) My character is so low profile that practically nobody really even knows he exists.
My GM however decides that a high level wizard repeatedly cast legend lore to determine:
A. What happened to the person.
B. Who murdered them.
C. Detailed information as to how the murderer did it.
D. Any of my characters significant activities within the past year or so (most of which wasn't related to the murder).
E. Information on my characters defenses.
F. Pretty much everything short of telling the mage my exact location.
Now my understanding of legend lore is that as far as thematics are concerned it tells the spellcaster the legends about a given person, place, or thing. And since my character very existence is nigh unheard of and the very few who have met him aren't even aware there was a murder (after all, those few don't know my actions in a possessed body that is many many miles away in what is effectively an enemy state).
So as far as the spirit and themeatics of the spell are concerned the spell was miss used (IMO). Mechanically things get a bit muddled, as the spell more or less states that due to the severe lack of information on the event or peoples involved that it would take 2d6 weeks to cast and only provide information that is "vague and incomplete". Now the spells says that it will likely point you in a direction that may lead to better info and thus allow a better casting of legend lore at a later date. But the fact of the matter is, there's no possible place it could point you towards in order to gain better knowledge, as only I know of the act (and possibly a deity, although due to the circumstances of this campaign's plot I find it unlikely).
When I mentioned the possibility of gaining info from a deity to my GM he said that the spell doesn't need that and that it can simply draw out the information without a source.
I'm not sure what to make of this, but it seems like he's stretching things to find a way to make my actions known to others. Any thoughts?
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Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4 × 10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).
You might be in trouble if the wizard was at the murder site, because then he gets "all" the legends available. If he's only using vague information, he's also only getting vague information, and he might not make much progress, unless he somehow finds the murder site.
During the casting, you cannot engage in other than routine activities: eating, sleeping, and so forth. When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known. If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information. As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.
It seems that if no legends exist, then no legends can be brought to mind. Legends have to have existed to be forgotten, and "never generally known" implies that it was "specifically known" at some point. If only the killer knew, I think that might be too narrow even for "never generally known".
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If this is the spell the GM is using, I think he's being a tad unfair. You went to the trouble to commit the perfect murder, and he's bending the rules to un-perfect it.
It's not nice to whine, but you could state your case, that Legend Lore fetches you legends that already exist/existed at some time. If legends never existed then this particular spell doesn't work, except to determine the fact that no legends existed.
That doesn't mean that your murder can't be found out; maybe other spells can be used, or maybe an omniscient god saw it happen. But Legend Lore doesn't suffice.
Except: if the observing deity told someone else, that might be considered a legend. Legend Lore isn't restricted to legends known on this plane.
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Whoa. Legend Lore as a way to find out extraplanar lore. I'm seeing some Lovecraft potential here.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It does say right in the spell description that it can bring you legends of information that isn't generally known. It also says any character of 11th level or above counts as legendary. You don't tell us the level of your PC but I'm assuming at least 9th or so based on your descriptions.
A PC casting legend lore in regards to a missing ally, presuming an NPC pulled off the same perfect murder you did, would probably return something like this from me(assumes killer is at least 11th level):
"(Ally) was slain by the unknowable Perfect Assassin, who moves through the world like a shadow and never wears the same face twice."
This would then give the caster a few clues to prompt further investigation. Being an "uncatchable killer" is certainly a thing of legend - see Jack the Ripper for a RL example.
That being said, I'm not sure Legend Lore would ever reveal your true identity or location - those wouldn't really be part of the legend. But it could certainly make the caster aware of your existence and some of your standard MO.
I'm thinking your GM is trying to backtrack. I cant imagine any way to make a truly perfect murder, you would always leave evidence of some sort (even if only mundane).
There are also a number of spells (all available to the "sleepless detective PrC" that can otherwise do the job:
1) Blood biography: While he cant reveal HOW the blood was shed, he can reveal WHEN
2) Legend lore: as ryric has stated, you're high enough level, you be legendary. Your GM might have gone a bit far, but now you know YOU can use legend lore that way too.
3) They also have a significantly increased duration to detect magical auras.
Also, communing with a deity (especially one of investigation, such as the empyreal lord Zohls) would probably reveal significantly more information, maybe even their attention.
THe spell "vision" might actually allow witnessing the murder directly, but the wording is unclear.
So, in the end, I think the GM thought it would be pretty anti-climactic for you to just "auto-win", but went too far in the other direction.
If there are no legends to learn, the caster learns nothing. Legend lore is not a know-everything spell.
There are plenty of other divination spells that could uncover the truth, though, not least of which is the enemy wizard researching their own improved version of blood biography. Or contact other plane. It would have been more appropriate for the wizard to know only some of the information, though, rather than receive a giant info dump like that. It would take weeks or months of casting to get that level of information via published spells. Plus, it's kinda cheap. More interesting if the wizard uncovered some cryptic clue that led him to investigate the party and let the killer sweat it out.
If there are no legends to learn, the caster learns nothing. Legend lore is not a know-everything spell.
Your other points are valid, especially time needed, but legend lore explicitly says that it can bring information that has never been known. So yes, with enough time, it is indeed a know-everything spell.
Yeah, without going mythic it is impossible to reach 40 int.
Best start: 18+2 (max racial without shenanigans)+5 (level) +5 (inherent)+6 (enhancement)=36
Now, there are ways to boost this, but they either require costly dips (mindchemist adds +4 alchemical) or costly RP (profane gifts). Even with the benefits of aging (+3) you wont reach 40.
Still, the save will be hard to miss.
Ah... actually... the maximum stat (that you can have 24/7) without Mythic is 43. You are forgetting profane bonuses like Lilitu Demons +4 from profane pact (though only one score) though I see you mentioned Age giving +3. Otherwise willamoak is correct.
But ya a 40 is manageable without aging
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone = +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks
Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone = +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks
That's +2 to ability checks, which eliminates the needs for mindchemist and lowers the required Intelligence score to completely avoid failure down to 36.
A divination focused Wizard could also use the following to gain a further +2 bonus, lowering the required Intelligence score to fully avoid failure to a 32.
Foretell (Su): At 8th level, you can utter a prediction of the immediate future. While your foretelling is in effect, you emit a 30-foot aura of fortune that aids your allies or hinders your enemies, as chosen by you at the time of prediction. If you choose to aid, you and your allies gain a +2 luck bonus on ability checks, attack rolls, caster level checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If you choose to hinder, your enemies take a –2 penalty on those rolls instead. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
You can use a Courageous Weapon with Greater Magic Weapon for another +2 morale to ability checks from the Flawed Pale Green Ioun Stone. A favorite trick of mine.
There are also a number of spells (all available to the "sleepless detective PrC" that can otherwise do the job:1) Blood biography: While he cant reveal HOW the blood was shed, he can reveal WHEN
Blood biography requires the victims blood. The GM had already ruled that no blood was spilled with the way the victim died. Plus I couldn't care less if people knew WHEN it happened.
I'd also like to point out I can see the wizard doing this especially if the guy had a habbit of dissapearing. I know if I were his high level friend I'd have status monitoring spells on him so I'd know he was alright even though he'd gone walkabout. The first thing I'd do on finding out he'd dies would be to make funeral arrangements when I can't find the body even though I knew he was home the day before I'd get suspicious. When I find out I can't raise him I'd start looking for the killer in case I were next.
Except the high level wizard isn't really friends with the victim. The victim was simply a high profile target that neglected to take any real precautions to keep themselves safe, they were incredibly reckless. So the high level wizard simply took an interest in the disappearance.
I'm not contending that there aren't methods by which the act can be investigated (namely speaking with a deity or other higher power), and I understand that maybe I was a bit hasty in calling it the "perfect" murder since there are divination spells and other methods by which even the perfect murder can be made imperfect, I'm even okay with the result of all this as my character is the type who enjoys a good chase and I have no problem with playing villain to the other PC's.
I was just a bit miffed that the GM chose this method after I put so much effort in leaving absolutely no evidence (I seeped into the victims room via gaseous form and the only evidence I would have left would have been on the victims body, which was taken care of).
I just wish the GM had drawn things out, maybe make the other PC's conduct an investigation over a session or two that ends with divine intervention or something. Not just sic his high level wizard on me by making him cast legend lore over and over during down-time.
In this case I would rule that the only way they could find out is if they contacted a deity. Looking over the particulars... you pretty much did everything right for a perfect murder. Legend Lore should provide nothing.
They might find traces of possession on the man you've been possessing, but there's nothing to tie the body to the murder. So, that would only get you in trouble for the possession.
So... I agree the GM is misusing the spell.
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If Legend Lore were to provide anything, I would have determined that over the course of a long investigation and multiple casts he would be able to determine that; the victim was murdered, mind control was involved, a spell caster was ultimately behind it, he's secretive and likely doesn't live nearby, and maybe a possible motivation.
I can see it being done by a very interesting and well-thought detective, but even then it's a matter of how long it took him to do so a short window of time and exact information seems ridiculous.
Unless of course he had afternoon tea with a deity, but if that was the case I'd contact Norgorber stat, he'd probably like your portfolio.
Then maybe you should ask why the wizards taking an interest maybe they were hired by someone who was going to meet with the victim, maybe they were looking for somethin else and stumbled across this, maybe they are just looking for an assasin and thus was what came up?
Nah it's nothing like that, he's been a major NPC for a while now and he's kind of appointed himself a protector of the city we're in (and he's powerful enough that the city officials can't really say no to him). So naturally when I killed someone of relative importance he started snooping around.
He's thinks he knows better than anyone else what's best for the city and that's actually put him in a bit of conflict with the PC's. Well, all but the overzealous paladin (but I can evade him pretty easily since he took a variant that doesn't get spells).
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on this guys and gals. I don't think I'll press the issue with my GM as I'm fine with the final outcome regardless of the methods, but I may mention it in passing.
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If there are no legends to learn, the caster learns nothing. Legend lore is not a know-everything spell.Your other points are valid, especially time needed, but legend lore explicitly says that it can bring information that has never been known. So yes, with enough time, it is indeed a know-everything spell.
It can dig up information that was "never generally known", meaning that the information was available to a very small number of people.
And what makes something a legend? Someone has to talk or write about something before it's a legend, otherwise it's just knowledge in someone's brain (which is not what LL deals with). If the only one who knew about it was the killer, and he didn't talk about it, LL can't force self-incrimination.
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Anyway, digging up even vague rumors of this with LL should take forever. Does the Mr. Protector of the City really have that much time to take off from his normal duties?
Just in my opinion, the act of killing this person isn't legendary unless the person was 11+ level. If he does not meet this qualification I just don't think Legend Lore should apply. If the person or event isn't legendary legend lore shouldn't reveal anything about the murder.
No legend, no Legend Lore.
I just wish the GM had drawn things out, maybe make the other PC's conduct an investigation over a session or two that ends with divine intervention or something.
I know that is probably isn't what you intended - but this really comes across to me as - I wanted the entire game to revolve around how awesome my PC was.
I mean, why would your group have to investigate your actions? What story advancing purpose does that serve other than, "I'm so smart and amazing that you guys need to rely on the direct intervention of a god to even figure out what I'm doing."
All this withdrawn if you are playing in a game where the PCs are not working as a group and you are in fact intended as the antagonist of the story rather than the protagonist.
As for legend lore - although you use meat puppets to forward your goals, are there aspects that link those goals together? For example, if this was a Criminal Minds and all these crimes were popping up, what would the profile based on victimology say?
I know that is probably isn't what you intended - but this really comes across to me as - I wanted the entire game to revolve around how awesome my PC was.
I mean, why would your group have to investigate your actions? What story advancing purpose does that serve other than, "I'm so smart and amazing that you guys need to rely on the direct intervention of a god to even figure out what I'm doing."
Because they'd already expressed interest in discovering who the murderer is. The victim may not have been friends with the wizard, but they were friends with the other PC's.
All this withdrawn if you are playing in a game where the PCs are not working as a group and you are in fact intended as the antagonist of the story rather than the protagonist.
The group of people I play with generally play characters with a wide variety of (often opposing) viewpoints, so they're rarely united. In fact there's already been some PvP murders in the campaign. For a while I thought maybe we might unite against the arrogant wizard, but that seems to have fizzled.
To be truthful, after the whole legend lore reveal of my characters actions my GM actually approached me about making me a primary antagonist since the PC's pretty much unanimously decided that my character should be confronted (some more enthusiastic about it than others, but all were for it).
So really it's my GM that put me up to the idea of actually being an antagonist to the other PC's. Up until that point I'd been content to operate from the shadows to cause chaos.
As for legend lore - although you use meat puppets to forward your goals, are there aspects that link those goals together? For example, if this was a Criminal Minds and all these crimes were popping up, what would the profile based on victimology say?
My character is chaotic evil, the only real link in his motivations and goals is to cause chaos as he sees it as a defining force in the universe. After all, the paladin wouldn't even be remembered after his death if there was no chaos to quell, and the neutral good fighter would have no reason to fight. Without chaos the world is mundane and life is meaningless.
That's my characters reasoning anyway.It's really why he committed the murder in the first place, the victim had been placing themselves in positions that made them high profile, but they neglected to take any precautions. My character did what he did to shake things up.
But I digress, this thread wasn't made to discuss that. Just to get some opinions on how legend lore should or shouldn't be used.
Ultimately my GM is a pretty generous guy and he's good at what he does, so I don't hold it against him at all.
If the wizard is powerful enough, maybe he knows you "did it" because he enthralled you, planted a bunch of fake memories in your brain via illusions, dressed you up in girls' clothes and took pictures, and then dropped you off at home. Meanwhile, the guy you thought you'd killed is over at the wizard's house, drinking a few ales, thumbing through the pictures and laughing at how utterly contemptible your character is. The wizard "being on to you" is simply a joke to see you sweat.
Lol. I may not always agree with my GM's rulings on certain issues, but he's not a jerk. He knows full well he could do something like that or worse, but I'm lucky enough to have a GM who's pretty nice to his PC's. :)
