We knew from the first session his greatsword with 2d6+8 damage with a +10 attack bonus made him an absolute beast in combat, the party could literally hold back and let me smash things in half ("FOR THE LIGHT OF THE SWORD!!!") then clean up the stragglers.
So, quite fairly I think, my GM came up with a way to let the others know I'm not invincible and my rather titanic strength comes with some weaknesses: he dropped us in a pool of water and we all nearly drowned. Turns out my strength negates any penalty (-4) from the armour, and I still get a +1. I fared better than everyone else in their leather and scale mail.
So I don't want to smite my GM's campaign, and I don't want to have to make him send things I'd be so weak against I don't stand a chance. And I certainly don't want to roll a new character. :(
Any advice for holding back/not being so damn powerful?
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You don't.
Paladins are incredibly powerful as a melee class. A paladin puts the DM in a position that he either has to modify encounters to feature lots of neutral bad guys or throw encounters your way that will challenge the paladin but crush the rest of the party (a condition I refer to as the Deos Theory). There's essentially no real winning.
The best thing you can do is reroll a different class or talk to the DM about rebuilding a bit to be less optimized.
Oh yeah, that would probably help haha'
Human Paladin level 3
HP: 41
AC: 18
STR: 20
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 15
WIS: 12
CHA: 17
Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Arisen
Weapons just that +1 Greatsword from the first post, and armour the breastplate for a +6 to AC.
Sorry, rest of the party: a ranger, a rogue/fighter, a bard and a fighter. Unfortunately, I haven't seen them in action much to tell you anything else.
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I think the fact that you have a 54 point build is the problem, not the class. Also the fact that you seem to have absolute maximum HP for your level as well.
PF modules are made for 15-20 point buy characters and you are essentially Captain America by comparison.
Dealing with paladins is not that difficult. If your GM is having a hard time, try to direct him to some guides to encounter design, I'm sure those will help him out.
Alvena Publishing's articles on encounter design comes to mind, and Everyman Gaming at wordpress does too.
Hope it helps.
-Nearyn
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So, you will shine at early levels.
You, and your whole party, will suffer later, as you have no full caster, of any kind.
If you are fighting undead, and evil outsiders, you will shine, but go up against things like swarms, and constructs, and you will have a hard time.
Heck, your party goes against any caster "boss", and you will have a very hard time.
Thanks guys, it's great to know I won't always be like this. Well I saw another player's stats and they were pretty low...
This isn't a Paizo campaign, homebrew world of my GM's. :)
Thanks, Nearyn! I'll pass that on to him. I guess it's good we're working together on this, and it's not a player vs GM thing.
Thanks also, Feral. :) Yeah, it does sort of suck the party is so imbalanced right now. :/
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2d6+8 actually seems off.
With 20 Str you should be dealing 2d6+10 minimum (+7 Str, +3 Power Attack).
2d6+11 since you say you have a +1 Greatsword.
...Sorry if that wasn't helpful.
But that's the average amount of damage a 2H wielder should be doing. You'll stop one-shotting things real soon though.
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You might drop your stats a bit, especially if you rolled and got luckier than your party. I don't think I've ever seen a pre-racial modifiers stat array as good as 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 12.
Ah, yeah Rynjin, I haven't actually been power attacking. >< Is it wise to do so every single time?
@Mors Aye, I did say right at the start we probably won't need any more martials, but the last player to pick has this stupid stigma about clerics and seems to think they're just healbots (which I have proved wrong many a time) and she chose a fighter. T_T
@weirdo I thought they were a bit too high too. I made a topic on here, actually, about it. xD
Cleave sucks, but you should be Power Attacking, just about all the time.
Why do you not have Furious Focus?
Wow! I had no idea that existed, totally getting at level 5. Thanks, can't believe I've never seen it before!
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You might drop your stats a bit, especially if you rolled and got luckier than your party. I don't think I've ever seen a pre-racial modifiers stat array as good as 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 12.BEHOLD! The last time I rolled stats.
Let me rephrase that: I never saw anyone play an array that good. I've seen several players roll similar arrays (in fact, one in each of the most recent two games I'm involved in), but they usually drop them to be just a little better than the rest of the party (eg in the case above, swapping the 17 for an 11).
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I made a character with it, but the game died.
I see super stats like that as an opportunity to make something super MAD or based more on flavor (in this case it was also a Gestalt game...yeah, so it was a toss-up between Kensai Magus/Monk and the more synergistic Gunslinger/Inquisitor into Grand Marshal PrC. The latter won out because LAWWWWWWW).
Oh yeah, that would probably help haha'
Human Paladin level 3
HP: 41
AC: 18STR: 20
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 15
WIS: 12
CHA: 17Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Arisen
Weapons just that +1 Greatsword from the first post, and armour the breastplate for a +6 to AC.
Yeah those are some beast stats and with the others being "weaker" martials if they got a much lower roll then it's only compounded. I would either let the others use your rolls as well, I think this would give them a better boost. Or you reduce yours maybe to a 25 or 20 point by but I still feel as though it won't help much. Do you know if the others are "efficient" character builders?
I made a character with it, but the game died.
I see super stats like that as an opportunity to make something super MAD or based more on flavor (in this case it was also a Gestalt game...yeah, so it was a toss-up between Kensai Magus/Monk and the more synergistic Gunslinger/Inquisitor into Grand Marshal PrC. The latter won out because LAWWWWWWW).
Man that stats array with those classes sounds really fun to play.
If you want an RP reason to depower your character legitimately switch to 1hd weapon and shield claiming to want to provide more protection for your comrades.
The one hander reduces the effectiveness of your Str and Power attack without making them useless and you get the trade off of a higher AC.
It will allow the rest of the Martials to shine for a bit and you can always switch it up later if you need the big hits.
You can always whip out ye ol' Greatsword if your teammates get into trouble, too.
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If you want to tone things down a bit, have your paladin intentionally fall. Become neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral. You will still be overpowered with your stats and a greatsword, but you wont be smiting on top of that. Next level after your fall, take Oracle as a curse from your god for falling, and then try to RP a new focus on your character.
Character balance, when done right, balances you against the other players, not against the GM.
You have much better stats. Until you remedy that, your character doesn't seem better than the others. It IS better than the others.
Paladin's a strong class as well, which just makes it worse.
Ask the GM if you can lower your stats. I can't imagine he'd say no.
Damage being too high doesn't make you too strong.
Your build is designed to kill things and kill them well. You are excelling at that.
Is your Ranger a full blown archer? If he was, his DPR would probably match or exceed yours.
Two handed damage has a large y-intercept, but the graph is still linear, in a level or two things will stop dying in one hit and casters will start having magic that can threaten you a lot more than CR 3s without magic can.
We knew from the first session his greatsword with 2d6+8 damage with a +10 attack bonus made him an absolute beast in combat, the party could literally hold back and let me smash things in half ("FOR THE LIGHT OF THE SWORD!!!") then clean up the stragglers.
So, quite fairly I think, my GM came up with a way to let the others know I'm not invincible and my rather titanic strength comes with some weaknesses: he dropped us in a pool of water and we all nearly drowned. Turns out my strength negates any penalty (-4) from the armour, and I still get a +1. I fared better than everyone else in their leather and scale mail.
So I don't want to smite my GM's campaign, and I don't want to have to make him send things I'd be so weak against I don't stand a chance. And I certainly don't want to roll a new character. :(
Any advice for holding back/not being so damn powerful?
This is sort of what Paladins are supposed to do. If the party encounters a mummy the Paladin can solo it. An evil lycanthrope, NO PROBLEM! Demons, Daemon or Devils, no problem what so ever. He's got this.
What are you weak at? Sneaking. That shining armor doesn't help you sneak around, nor does the fact that you literally glow to detect good and leave a trail that anyone with detect good can follow without a problem.
However, this becomes less problematic as you move forward. As you gain levels the casters and caster enemies will start to make you less and less important. The casters will take precedence, and you will more or less become an extremely dangerous support character.
Also, your DM needs to stop sending single enemies at your party if he wants the paladin to be less dangerous. You can only smite evil a set number of times each day, and the more enemies you face the less of them you can smite to defeat their DR.
Your job is to walk around the world crushing evil. Your two-handed beat-stick is doing exactly what it is supposed to, and smite evil is, more or less, your only way to keep up with full casters at later levels.
Regardless you will never out-damage someone who is built to do stupidly high amounts of burst damage.
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Barbarians are still a lot nastier than paladins even with smite factored in. Just sayin'. Buuuut they, like the paladin and fighter, still fall prey to the power creep that casters experience. Damage, control, utility; spell casters are better at all of these things. They will even frequently wind up having higher HP, higher AC, and ridiculous amounts of DR.
Buuuut they, like the paladin and fighter, still fall prey to the power creep that casters experience. Damage, control, utility; spell casters are better at all of these things. They will even frequently wind up having higher HP, higher AC, and ridiculous amounts of DR.
Saves on a Paladin make the class distinctly more powerful than either of those two imo. Two good saves and CHA to all saves makes them significantly stronger than Barbarians and Fighters. Who cares if the BBEG Wizard can OTK the paladin if the spell won't actually affect them? And that applies to casters of every alignment too.
Granted, actually killing something non-evil is a lot harder and no one beats the Casters in utility tho.
@OP - Why not throw in some combat maneuvers to spice your life up in combat? A lot of your feats work well for any 2H weapon, so you could bring a guisarme or ranseur to start combat by tripping or disarming, knowing that you can drop the (non-mw, non-magical) polearm and recover it after combat, if need be.
You could also start doing non-lethal damage (-4 to attack unless you've got a weapon that can do non-lethal) to knock enemies out so they can be brought to justice later on.
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Ask the GM if you can lower your stats. I can't imagine he'd say no.
When you've got over the shock after adding up the point value of his stats you realise that only the 20 Str matters in the OP, and 20 Str is available to a 15 point buy. His paladin class doesn't affect that 2d6+8 because he's not Smiting. A fighter with the right feats would do more damage.
I see many ways for you GM to take you down. For which I shouldn't tell you, but he should be able to work it out. So you should just be what you are and be prepared. But if you truly believe you are too overpower, ask your GM if you can drop a stat. Drop it to below 10, a character without weakness is not interesting. However, I do see weakness. And a good GM should also be able to see that.
Ask the GM if you can lower your stats. I can't imagine he'd say no.When you've got over the shock after adding up the point value of his stats you realise that only the 20 Str matters in the OP, and 20 Str is available to a 15 point buy. His paladin class doesn't affect that 2d6+8 because he's not Smiting. A fighter with the right feats would do more damage.
Not to mention that if he really went for it he could have 5 attacks at level 1 and an AC of low 20s.
Angel-blooded Aasimar (Scion of ratfolkity), 2-talons instead of alter self, bite from 1 level dip in Oracle, Ratfolk tailblade due to being treated as ratfolk, and armor spikes as his own attacking weapon. Oracle first level spell casting, go with Lunar mystery and apply Cha to AC instead of Dex, and instantly he can dump dex.Point is that he could get stupidly high AC as he goes on while also getting more attacks than most first level characters. With smile evil he goes from being relatively low damage to being a killing machine.
Make him a hospitaler and the neither he (lay on hands as swift to heal self) nor the party (Channel Energy 3 + cha mod /day) will ever die.
The OP could be far, far, far more of a nightmare for the DM.
At low levels just carry around two longswords, one silver and one cold-iron, you are officially able to defeat anything and everything that comes your way regardless of if it has DR or not. Natural attacks for everything without DR, the sword that works vs that DR, or your Lay on Hands, channel energy, and spells for things that are ethereal.
Go for dual cursed and you can pick up Misfortune and use it once each round as an immediate interrupt. You just get to ask "was the roll high?" Whenever the DM rolls for a character within 30-ft of you for the first time, and "Crit!" becomes "retry!"
You could be far worse of a nightmare.
But--still, that wouldn't be as bad as my "blow someone up with 80d6 (Average 280 damage)shocking grasps from 7 different weapons and a natural attack in one round" gish build of death. It could even go higher to 90d6(315) if you cast one and hold a charge.
So, no, your Paladin is not broken or over powered.
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It seems to me that you have just the benefits that every two-hander Str-based martial has at low lvls. You will fall off a bit as the lvls increase, but as a paladin you will always be both damaging and durable. This has nothing to do with you, your party may be a bit weaker than you. If the others are casters, they will have their cahnce to shine at higher lvls, or they need to optimise more their PCs.
More info about your allies is indeed needed.
This. A Barbarian, or any other Martial class rolling with a high Str and the same weapon would do the same thing. It'll drop off and even out as you go, probably by level 5 or 6 when everyone starts getting their "cool stuff". A monk/druid in Cat form, by level 5, could do a maximum of 5 attacks(bite/claw/claw/rake/rake), for a total of 74 damage... with no crits.
Perhaps you should make your character a wee bit less optimized... or maybe it'll be fine as it is...
I don't see why he doesn't just alter the creature intelligence a little and make them try some CMB out. There are a lot of options other than dropping you in a pool. To me that kind of seems like an unfair move on his part... but it is a good challenge.
More important than balance vs gm its balance with your party members. If everyone else rolled stats and they are the same statwise then expect those players to ratchet up there power at somepoint whether it be through knowing the class more or encounters being less tilted in your favor (terrain, non evil enemies, flyers).
Yeah it was quite fun. The bard saved us by remembering Pirates of the Caribbean. ;)
Well the fighter/rogue and ranger are brand new players but the GM held their hold through the rolling so they will be as good as they can be with whatever scores they got. I'll try to find out more about their stats/feats but the next session is in two weeks. D:
Oh aye, Arisen is more of a backstory thing my GM allowed. Died saving the king when he was 12 and again in defence of a village overrun by orcs after defeating their warchief.
Doing non-lethal damage is a fantastic idea. Against trolls and things I imagine my party would be rather annoyed, but for other races like enemy elves and things yup, thank you!
Its the stats and only the stats that make you overpowered compared to the rest of the party. if they dont drop this will never change.
all those caster comparisons dont really mean anything because your party doesn't have a full caster. with 20 strength you will always do the same amount of damage as any other melee character can do (if they also have 20), with the exception of a barbarian (or a select few optimization builds) - which again you dont have in your party. You are more durable and a bigger threat then anyone else and this will never change.
But as a Paladin you are more limited. You can Smite X Number of Enemys per day. Increasing the number of enemys makes a paladin a bit weaker then a fighter (that has his bonus all day long), but you still have your bonus when it really matters (for the really important enemys) and you still have higher saves then a fighter could ever have, a few spells and immunities.
If your attributes are not reduced you have to options:
- live with it, while your party hates you (seriously, if its always the same person in the spotlight it stops being fun at some point)
- gimp yourself by making really stupid choices that dont make sense. seriously... the idea of making him longsword+shield may be an option, but your character is the biggest powergamer there is... he fights for his own life and the lifes of his comrades. he will not use inferior tactics because the rogues kill-count is lower then his. He will start doing this only if he becomes actually better with that weapon style (after a few feats)
all those caster comparisons dont really mean anything because your party doesn't have a full caster.
They do when the enemies can start becoming reality warping monstrosities and the party desperately needs him to make his saves or everyone else dies.
I think we need more information on the other members of your team, how optimized are they?
Sounds like a bit of a mess with a bit of egg on your gm's face for not using the given point buy system, and it sounds clear the effect is snowballing already as you either want to hang back in combat and annoy the party, or wreck everything and spoil everyones fun. This is why I try to deviate as little as possible from the suggested methods in the rulebooks and guess what? It seems to pay off! Cheers and good luck to you, I hope the best solution for you and your group presents itself!
For one idea, consider bumping the +2 stat bonus into Wisdom. That'll take a little edge off that offense while still being quite good. You want to eventually get to at least a 14 Wisdom over your career anyway. By shifting the +2, you achieve that now and can stage in a bump to strength later over some future level-based stat increases.
Also keep in mind that equipment is the great equalizer for martial characters. Since the others apparently aren't as blessed in their stats, give them priority for the stat boost items. Save your money up for thematic enhancements like turning your current sword into a holy one, investing in specialized armor, or getting mobility items rather than raw numeric boosts.
The stat differences are pretty big now, but they will fade in proportional significance over time.
For one idea, consider bumping the +2 stat bonus into Wisdom. That'll take a little edge off that offense while still being quite good. You want to eventually get to at least a 14 Wisdom over your career anyway. By shifting the +2, you achieve that now and can stage in a bump to strength later over some future level-based stat increases.
Also keep in mind that equipment is the great equalizer for martial characters. Since the others apparently aren't as blessed in their stats, give them priority for the stat boost items. Save your money up for thematic enhancements like turning your current sword into a holy one, investing in specialized armor, or getting mobility items rather than raw numeric boosts.
The stat differences are pretty big now, but they will fade in proportional significance over time.
Why does he want Wisdom to be 14?
Will saves? Sense Motive check? Perception?Multiclassing cleric?