i agree with those who have mentioned realism and 'living' settings.
there are times when nova and rest may be perfectly reasonable... you're in the wilderness, you got into a tough fight and everyone burned most of their resources, so you look for somewhere safe to hide out (or magically hide) and recuperate before getting into trouble again. of course, if you're out in the wilderness you might be trying to get somewhere, or have some kind of schedule, so there's that to consider. but if its an isolated encounter and there's a real concern that another fight like it will result in PC deaths then hiding/resting is a very reasonable response.
as the GM you just need to remember that the game world is living and functions apart from the PCs (this isn't a WoW raid where each group of enemies politely waits in their spot until you finish the prior group off, heal, rebuff, and then engage them). if they kill a bunch of bandits in the wilderness you should already know if that was a solitary group or part of a larger organization; if the latter, some friends should come looking for them. likewise, if you're in a dungeon/keep/similar structure killing something will attract attention- if its organized, as soon as 1 group goes missing or is discovered dead the whole place will be on alert (larger groups of enemies, no one sleeping or unprepared, PCs actively being searched for) and the ultimate target (be it a BBEG or some priceless bit of information/treasure/whatever) may even be relocated. even if it's a wild place (a ruin that bad things have moved in to or something) a killed creature might have some kind of family that will come looking, or its corpse might attract attention from terrible scavengers. all of these things will (or, at least, should) dissuade PCs from the 1 minute adventuring day while also fostering a little more realism in the campaign.
after a certain level (9th) it will become very hard to just stop them from resting whenever they want... with access to teleport they can carefully study where they are, teleport to a safe resting place, and teleport back whenever they want. remember that ability when designing encounters/adventures, and remember that the world is still a living place- if they do that somewhere wild a new dangerous thing may have moved in to the newly abandoned lair; if they try it in a civilized place there will likely be increased security in general, and if anyone there has any spellcraft at all there may be an ambush waiting wherever they suspect the PCs might have studied in order to teleport back to. the enemies likely have at least some casting ability as well... which means that if the PCs try to use guerrilla-teleport tactics against a group they are likely to quickly become the target of scrying, dimensional anchor, and other various magical precautions.
Use multiple encounters before the players have time to rest. It's that simple.
Why would you want to stop the novas? They make the encounters go much faster, which is often more fun for most than a long bog slog, and they make future encounters much more interesting (as the PCs now have less resources).
But, yeah, the 5-minute work day can be problematic.
A fireball conveniently falls upon their camp as they sleep, denying them all the opportunity to make a reflex save. Turns out that room full of mooks they killed were working for a spell caster, and he was one of those rare bad guys that actually gave a damn about his fodder.
You still get your saves even when unconscious, though they may not benefit from their Dexterity modifier (and may even be treated as having Dexterity 0).
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Honest question: why do you want to prevent novas?
Nova-ing is just about the biggest part of the Spellcaster/Martial power discrepancy, esp at the mid levels (5-12, when I think adventuring is most fun. If you don't allow the spellcasters to nova, you keep things balanced.
Honest question: why do you want to prevent novas?Nova-ing is just about the biggest part of the Spellcaster/Martial power discrepancy, esp at the mid levels (5-12, when I think adventuring is most fun. If you don't allow the spellcasters to nova, you keep things balanced.
Not at all. THe biggest power discrepency is the ability of casters to tell reality to go screw itself. With spells like Create Demi-Plane, Time Stop, Wish, Simulacrum, Scry, and others the wizard can do whatever he damn well pleases.
And in the damage front, a wizard does not need to Nova. A single fireball from a specced wizard can outdamage a wizard easy.
A single fireball from a specced wizard can outdamage a wizard easy.
0_0
Honest question: why do you want to prevent novas?Nova-ing is just about the biggest part of the Spellcaster/Martial power discrepancy, esp at the mid levels (5-12, when I think adventuring is most fun. If you don't allow the spellcasters to nova, you keep things balanced.Not at all. THe biggest power discrepency is the ability of casters to tell reality to go screw itself. With spells like Create Demi-Plane, Time Stop, Wish, Simulacrum, Scry, and others the wizard can do whatever he damn well pleases.
All of which are much higher than "mid-level" (except maybe Scry). I really don;t care what wizards can do with 9th level spells, it so rarely comes up.
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If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...
If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...
1. Deceitful, Skill Focus(bluff), cantrips, eschew materials,Elemental Ray,0th:Prestidigitation,Acid-Splash, Mending,Mage-hand| 1st:Silent-Image, Floating-Disk
2.0th:Ghost-Sound
3. Extend Spell,Elemental Resistance 10| 1st:Burning-Hands*,1st: Magic-Missile
4. 0th:Read-Magic| 2nd:Acid-Arrow
5. Still Spell,2nd: Scorching-Ray*,1st:Disguise-Self| 2nd:Invisibility
6.0th:Detect-Magic|3rd:Fireball
7. Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell,3rd: Protection-from-energy,1st:Unseen-Servant| 2nd:Mirror-Image|3rd:Fly
8. 0th:Message| 4th:Shadow-Conjuration
9. Silent Spell,Elemental Resistance 20| Elemental Blast (1/day)| 4th: Elemental-Body-I,2nd:Protection-from-arrows |3rd:Lightning-Bolt| 4th:Animate-Dead
10.0th:Detect-Poison|5th:Shadow-Evocation
11. Quicken Spell,5th: Elemental-Body-II,2nd:Resist-Energy|3rd:Magic-Circle-Against-Evil|4th:Dimen sional-Anchor|5th:Planar-Binding-lesser
12. 6th:Shadow-Walk
13. Maximize Spell, Improved Initiative 6th: Elemental-Body-III, 4th:Dimension-Door|5th:Magic-Jar|6th:Planar-Binding
14.7th:Shadow-Conjuration-Greater
15. Widen Spell,Elemental Movement(Fly 60 ft)|7th: Elemental-Body-VI, 5th:Teleport|6th:Chain-Lightning| 7th:Limited-Wish
16.8th:Shadow-Evocation-Greater
17. Enlarge Spell,Elemental Blast (2/day)| 8th: SMVIII(elementals only),7th:Simulacrum|8th:Planar-Binding-Greater
18.9th:Shades
19. Toughness, Weapon Finesse,9th: Summon Swarm,8th:Polymorph-Any-Object|9th:Gate
20. Elemental Blast (3/day)| Elemental Body,9th:Wish
Archmage(Wild Arcana)
Mythic Feats: Mythic Spell Lore, Mythic Spell Lore, Extra Path ability(Eldritch Flight), Ascendant Spell, Mythic Spell Lore
Mythic Path:Longevity, Crafting Mastery, Mirror Dodge, Many Forms, Tangible Illusion, Channel Power, Beyond Morality, Divine Source(Healing,Artifice), Divine Source(Glory;Resurrection,Honor), Divine Source(Magic;Arcane,Divine)
A single fireball from a specced wizard can outdamage a wizard easy.0_0
whoops.. I meant a fighter haha. Im tired xD. Running on 4 hours of sleep in 3 days. YAY! MAINTENANCE!!!
If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...** spoiler omitted **...
Is there a point you're trying to make here?
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Well personally I think the best way is to motivate them to have a time restraint. Have the pay they were promised available only if completed by a certain time, say we need the goblins gone before our harvest festival begins.
Or in later levels, that recurring villain you've seen, well all signs point to him rushing after a doomsday artifact, and actually keep track of the time that passes to know whether he has it or not, and how powerful he becomes after that.
It is also weird when bad guys just wait in their rooms for death to come, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to sometimes just move out when they realize the room next door got slaughtered. Hey that could mean a failed mission or less loot.
Just make sure your actions make sense and make sure your players understand you will be evolving the world to their actions.
Is there a point you're trying to make here?If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...** spoiler omitted **...
Even un-optimized sorcerers can have TONS of reality breaking-stuff before 9th level spells.
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Why would you want to stop the novas? They make the encounters go much faster, which is often more fun for most than a long bog slog, and they make future encounters much more interesting (as the PCs now have less resources).
Except that the PCs will simply stop and rest if at all possible, rendering the 'future encounters' moot. Or the nova-ers sit around twiddling their thumbs, while everybody else has to work harder (which, IMFAO, is not more interesting).
The best, IMHO, way to prevent novas is to have fellow PCs who aren't willing to stop and rest just because Nukey McOverkill doesn't understand the concept of conserving ammunition.
A single fireball from a specced wizard can outdamage a [fighter] easy.
Yeah, and then he has nothing to do for the rest of the fight (mainly at low levels; high levels are more complicated). Fighters may not be as showy, but they can hold on longer. Every now and then, slow and steady wins the race. In a way, this makes fighters one of the most specialized classes--the real place they get to shine is during a long, difficult day of combat.
Which, to put things back on topic, is why nova-ing should be discouraged. Why penalize the people who were thoughtful enough to bring potions? Why reward people who don't know the meaning of the word "conservative"?
A single fireball from a specced wizard can outdamage a [fighter] easy.Yeah, and then he has nothing to do for the rest of the fight (mainly at low levels; high levels are more complicated). Fighters may not be as showy, but they can hold on longer. Every now and then, slow and steady wins the race. In a way, this makes fighters one of the most specialized classes--the real place they get to shine is during a long, difficult day of combat.
except the fighter has no resources of their own that everybody else doesn't already have, and well, fighters tend to be a drain on healing spells from the party cleric or whatever and a drain on buffs. and before you say barbarians sponge more healing then a fighter, barbarians have lotsa of damage reduction and drastically better saving throws.
Even un-optimized sorcerers can have TONS of reality breaking-stuff before 9th level spells.Is there a point you're trying to make here?If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...** spoiler omitted **...
I see. Agreed.
except the fighter has no resources of their own that everybody else doesn't already have, and well, fighters tend to be a drain on healing spells from the party cleric or whatever and a drain on buffs. and before you say barbarians sponge more healing then a fighter, barbarians have lotsa of damage reduction and drastically better saving throws.
Well, feel free to head over to one of the rules threads to argue about that. I'm gonna try to keep things on-topic here.
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I don't know what damage builds you guys are running to out damage a damage focused fighter, but I would have to see the numbers to believe it. Perhaps you are playing with fighters that don't know how to spec for damage? Or are you expecting a single target specialist to deal the damage damage that a blaster does to a group? I mean 90 damage (maximized, intensified fireball) x7 targets is always going to beat 200 damage (which is on the low side if casters are tossing around spells doing that much) to one target.
Even un-optimized sorcerers can have TONS of reality breaking-stuff before 9th level spells.Is there a point you're trying to make here?If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...** spoiler omitted **...
Well, 1. That's pretty optimized. 2. It's mythic, which is, by definition at least game-stretching, if not breaking.
But we digress.
Regardless of how overpowered some people think fighters (and rogues) are, the fact remains that attrition is one of the areas they excel in withstanding. That is why constant nova-ing is not okay: It rewards people with terrible strategy and penalizes people smart enough to hold back or bring magic items.
Pathfinder did a pretty good job nerfing the 15 minute day with their spell preparation rules. It's a lot harder to get spells back now... in 2E we were ALWAYS stopping for 20.... 40... 120 minutes to 'rememorize' that spell used, but here you kinda just have to deal with it.
I didn't know you could do that in 2e. I thought it was also just once a day.
With Pathfinder you can leave slots open.
Animate Dead
Arcane Sight
Charm Person
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Dimension Door
Haste/Slow
Fly
Freedom of Movement
Invisibility
Prestidigitation
Restoration
Shadow Conjuration
Simulacrum, Lesser
Solid Fog
Stone Shape
Summon Monster 1~4
Tongues
Water Breathing
All of those are level 4 or lower and all of them alter reality in ways far beyond what a mundane character can do. Some of them in game-changing ways, from Detect Magic to Dimension Door.
In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;D
For the OP, I just throw more fights at them.
I haven't had many encounters with "Scry and Fry" or the "15 minute workday," but I have some contingencies. After all, if these cases are so common, enemies would plan for them, wouldn't they?
I'd have my enemies use these ideas too, but like I said my table has been civil (or just plain uninformed).
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In fairness, a fighter can fire like a billion arrows in six seconds. There ain't many classes that don't bend the laws of reality. ;D
The problem is that 1 arrow or a thousand accomplish pretty much the same thing. In the end, you're still doing the same thing over and over again. No options were gained, the numbers just inflated.
But I'm derailing the thread... Let's go back to character nova and whatever.
Even un-optimized sorcerers can have TONS of reality breaking-stuff before 9th level spells.Is there a point you're trying to make here?If only the reality-breaking stuff were limited to 9th level spells... If only...** spoiler omitted **...Well, 1. That's pretty optimized. 2. It's mythic, which is, by definition at least game-stretching, if not breaking.
But we digress.
Am I the only one who always adds mythics to builds with no guarantee that the campaign will have mythics?
It's like how people make 1-20 builds even though most campaign end before 20.
The build is not mythic just because it is planned out for mythics should they arise [/rant]
Ban Rope Trick, for a start. It's a stupid broken spell shot full of unexplained loopholes. And even if you persist in allowing it, you can reasonably assume that dungeon denizens of any appreciable level will be able to track it down and ambush the PCs. Consider that its duration is only 1 hour per level and you'll need to be in there for 9 hours to rest and get spells, so you're 9th level. Opponents at that level can track you down and detect magic. And dispel magic.
Teleport is harder, of course, bt again with the intelligent opponents.
The focus of my last adventure was finding somewhere safe the PCs could sleep. They were trekking through the forest and evening was approaching when they ran into a whole lot of traps and kobold tracks. They were terrified of trying to camp safely in the woods, knowing that there were hostile kobolds around. So nova wasn't an option: they had to kill or scare off every single opponent before resting.
The problem is that 1 arrow or a thousand accomplish pretty much the same thing. In the end, you're still doing the same thing over and over again. No options were gained, the numbers just inflated.
Just sayin', everyone bends reality to some extent. ;D
I would second the suggestion for ambushing the rope tricksters. Even orcs, trolls and ogres can understand the idea of a sneak attack. Kobolds, hobgoblins and goblins, meanwhile, are canny and/or creative enough to pull some really nasty stunts. Fill the room with acid/leech swarms while the adventurers are snoozing. First dude to exit the Trick gets a big surprise. "Sucks" to be him?
The focus of my last adventure was finding somewhere safe the PCs could sleep. They were trekking through the forest and evening was approaching when they ran into a whole lot of traps and kobold tracks. They were terrified of trying to camp safely in the woods, knowing that there were hostile kobolds around. So nova wasn't an option: they had to kill or scare off every single opponent before resting.
I like this. I'm gonna use it. Sounds like a really elegant way to challenge high-level players, in fact. Sure, you've got your fireballs, but the kobolds don't bunch together enough--a fireball only kills maybe five, tops, and then you've wasted one of your spells. The kobolds/goblins/ettercaps keep launching little attacks, never enough for you to really take them down, always wearing at your resources and trying to keep you from reaching sanctuary.
Yeah, I like that.
Another thing about Rope Trick: in 3.x and earlier, you could pull the rope up into the extradimensional space. Not in PF. So at the very least there's this big obvious sign pointing to the PCs...and monsters can climb.
RELEASE THE CLIMBING MONKEYS
Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?
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Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?
Common knowledge doesn't require ranks, plus the GM can reassign the monster's skill ranks as desired.
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Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?
"Well gee there's this suspicious rope hanging out of the air, but since I have no Kn. Arcana ranks obviously it's not really suspicious and I should not investigate it further."
Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?"Well gee there's this suspicious rope hanging out of the air, but since I have no Kn. Arcana ranks obviously it's not really suspicious and I should not investigate it further."
"Hey, Mokmak, where'd the adventurers go?"
"Dunno, Makmok, but there's this weird rope hanging in the room as if there's some sort of magic surrounding it.""Must be a human thing. Just ignore it."
"'Kay."
Most monsters don't have the ranks of Knowledge (arcana) to recognize a rope trick. How does the troll know that the rope hanging from midair has an extraplanar space at the top?Common knowledge doesn't require ranks, plus the GM can reassign the monster's skill ranks as desired.
they can reassign the monsters feats and equipment as desired too
I usually make most encounters somewhat easy starting out. It strongly discourages nova/rest cycles. You just used 4 spells and your arcane pool to turn that goblin shaman into a fine red mist... Grats.
Making encounters solvable without nova style play is the key to preventing novas. When you make encounters too hard, or hard enough that not going all out actually uses more resources (as in having to remove negative levels and the death condition), you encourage the 15 minute adventuring day.
When it comes time for a boss fight, or a mini boss fight, sure, let them go all out. But since they had to use some minor stuff getting there they might have some holes in their "optimal" battle preparations. Follow up a tough boss fight with a relatively easier angry pet/spouse/minion attack. "You killed my X, now you must die!" encounters are surprisingly effective even if the fight is easy on paper, the PCs are at their weakest. Its a good way of reminding them that Nova style play has a cost.
I like this, this is the tactic I usually use.
On a related note, if the PCs ever get too formulaic, have the NPCs learn. Have a kobold janitor escape and let the next boss know, "They like to open with a Quickened Slow and..."
Won't they be in for a surprise?
I assume that the characters brag about their exploits in bars and replay their fights to impress the local lads and lasses.
Well, if that works for your players, that's fine. Me, I always assume that if my players want to roleplay, they'll tell me. Godmodding tends to tick them off, especially when it's to their detriment.
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I assume that the characters brag about their exploits in bars and replay their fights to impress the local lads and lasses.Well, if that works for your players, that's fine. Me, I always assume that if my players want to roleplay, they'll tell me. Godmodding tends to tick them off, especially when it's to their detriment.
Yeah... Gotta agree with KC here.
I'd be very irritated if something like the following situation happened in a game I'm playing...
Me: WTF? How does he have prepared the perfect counter for each and every one of our tactics?
GM: Well, he heard about you. You shouldn't have bragged about your battles to everyone you meet in the local taverns.
Me: What?! I never bragged about anything!
GM: Sorry. Unless you specifically say you are not bragging, I assume you tell everyone about your adventures.
Me: WHAT??!! What else do you assume we always do unless we specifically say we don't?
GM: You know... The obvious stuff... Gathering food, looking for shelter, screwing the Baron's wife, poisoning the wells of every town you visit... That kind of stuff.
Me: ...
GM: What?
Me: I hate you.
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GM: You know... The obvious stuff... Gathering food, looking for shelter, screwing the Baron's wife, poisoning the wells of every town you visit... That kind of stuff.
Wait... you mean that isn't standard operating procedure most of the time?
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Wait... you mean that isn't standard operating procedure most of the time?GM: You know... The obvious stuff... Gathering food, looking for shelter, screwing the Baron's wife, poisoning the wells of every town you visit... That kind of stuff.
Of course not. Sometimes the Baron is not married... Or maybe he's a duke. And poison is way too expensive in PF to be wasted on wells.
I wouldn't even bother with the janitor, unless the players specify otherwise I assume that the characters brag about their exploits in bars and replay their fights to impress the local lads and lasses. Any reasonably intelligent opponent who knows they are facing the party can get a good idea of how the party likes to operate just by asking around.On a related note, if the PCs ever get too formulaic, have the NPCs learn. Have a kobold janitor escape and let the next boss know, "They like to open with a Quickened Slow and..."
Won't they be in for a surprise?
I do similar, except I don't assume that players go around bragging. I assume, unless they specify otherwise, that they keep their mouth shut... mainly because keeping their mouth shut is sometimes half their pay.
Instead, the enemies hunt for survivors of the group's encounters to ask them, try to ask employers, investigate adventure sites, try to use divination spells, even try to speak with dead to find out what happened. Basically, 90% of the information they find out, they find out through the magical equivalent of forensics. They find out very, very little from asking around.
But, then, my BBEGs and smarter lieutenants tend to be people with very high Intelligence and Wisdom. They didn't get where they are without a lot of hard work and having to use their brains.
And the players have access to the exact same options and methods. If the group is taking time to do the legwork, they end up having few surprises. So in general, typically both sides know a lot about each other by the time they actually meet.