Assassin Without Actually Being An Assassin

[AsmodeusUltima]

I had an idea for a PFS character I would like to run at some point in the future, but am somewhat at a loss as to how to build him. Hence I turn to the collective wisdom and expertise of my fellow players!

The inspiration for the character are the medieval Nizaris, aka hashishin, the origin of the word assassin. Note I am building off the (admittedly very inaccurate) romanticized version ala from the writings of Western "scholars" such as Marco Polo and de Sacy. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Islamic faith or its followers, any more than I would to French Catholics when playing a paladin.

Anyway, I want the character to be human (or near human), Qadiran faction, with abilities in single combat, stealth, and poison. I understand poison is somewhat gimped in PFS, but I think it fits the concept too well to leave out entirely. Consider it a slight edge rather than a central concept. I was thinking Slayer, or Slayer/Ninja so the ninja tricks could help represent the mysticism of the character.

I know the character will be quite MAD, especially since, for roleplaying purposes, I'd rather not tank his mental stats so he can be something of a philosopher as well (think Azeem in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves). I do not need super-optimization, but have never built such a character and want to make sure I won't be so incompetent as to drag down any group I run with. Any advice on build would be appreciated, including stat array, combat style/feat choice, class choice, equipment, etc.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read and respond.

[Takhisis]

Do you have access to the Advance Class Guide Playtest? If so the Slayer seems just like the class you're looking for. Mechanically, the Slayer is a hybrid of ranger and rogue that strips the ranger of it's magic and bond with nature and merges it with the cunning, guile, stealth and efficient death dealing of the rogue. The class itself is actually the IDEAL assassin, and gets a lots of abilities that enforce this. One of it's main abilities is a very assassin-y take on the ranger's favored enemy. Instead of getting a flat bonus against certain enemy types they can get favored enemy bonuses against an individual creature(and at later levels individual creatureS) by studying them for a brief period, which to me comes off as being VERY assassin-like in fluff.

In addition they get access to some rogue talents, 6+ int skills, sneak attack(though not until level 3.) and a boatload of class features that make them very, very good at playing the role of the assassin. In addition to rogue talents, they can also pick some slayer talents that are tailor-made for the job of killing and general assassin-y type stuff. Some you may be interested in are the one that gives you bonuses against both mundane and magical effects to discern your intentions, the and the poison use slayer talent. Oh, and did I mention the slayer gets the same skill with tracking as the ranger does? Yeah, the slayer can track down his quarry with the same profiency, skill and ease as a ranger tracks down his own prey. You also get the quarry ability, which is nice for an assassin type.

Combat wise, they have the advantage of being -hardier- then a rogue and have better BAB. Slayers can wear up to medium armor if they so wish, get full BAB and have a D10 for HD. Oh, they also get both fort and ref as good saves. Thus, in "solo" combat they can be a lot more survivable then a rogue yet still hit hard. Heck, they can even get ranger combat style feats via their slayer talents. While the class has some features that scream bounty hunter it has others that scream assassin and I think that it would work wonders for this character concept. The best part of course is that it is 100% free, as all you need to do to use it is download the advance class guide playtest!

[TriOmegaZero]

I'd go Ranger with a splash of Ninja for poison.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Thank you, yes, as mentioned I was thinking Slayer would fit the concept well, maybe with some Ninja levels reskinned for a Middle-Eastern vibe rather than far East. It does seem to fit the mechanics of what I wish to accomplish really well.

TOZ, why Ranger over Slayer? Any archetype in specific that you would suggest? Any specific build advice?

[TriOmegaZero]

Mostly because I know nothing about the Slayer. Is it full BAB?

[Takhisis]

Yes, Slayer is full BAB, as stated in my previous post. :3 Also, I am not sure you can multiclass slayer and ninja. I know that you can't multiclass slayer and rogue, but I am not sure if ninja counts as a "rogue" for that rule or not since it's an alternate class rather then a rogue archetype...May want to ask in the rulings board about this...

[AsmodeusUltima]

It really is a pretty great looking class. It and Investigator are by far my favorite new classes in the ACG. It is essentially a Ranger that replaces spells and hunter's bond with slow progression sneak attack and the ability to choose rogue talents instead of (or in addition to) Ranger combat styles. I really cannot wait for the ACG to come out, mostly because I want to see what archetypes they have for the new classes!

Hmm... that's a good point about not being able to multi-class them. Most likely one cannot. Oh well, it was more for flavor than anything else, a bit of mysticism to throw in there. Without it that means I can at least get away with a lower charisma score.

[TriOmegaZero]

I'm not paying any attention to the ACG classes until the final product is out. But it does sound like Slayer is enough Ranger/Rogue to do just fine.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Perfectly reasonable. I thank both of you gentlemen for your advice on class selection. I am still hoping that someone has some advice on actual character build however. Should I TWF, or perhaps spring attack with a poisoned kukri? Any really obvious feats or traits I'm going to want to grab? Best choices for talents?

[XMorsX]

Go TWFing if you intend to make a Str-based PC that ignores the Dex prereqs of the TWF feats via ranger combat styles.

If you want to incorporate the use of poisons in your PC, I suggest going with Vivisectionist Alchemist. It is possible to achieve the flavor you want, and most importantly with the Poison Conversion discovery you can alter injury poisons like Drow poison to inhaled, stack many of them in order to raise its DC, put them in a bottle and throw them in your enemies for really high DCs.

You can also take the Celestial Poisons discovery in order to be able to poison evil outsiders and the Sticky Poison discovery so that you can coat your weapon with poison for many rounds per dose. There is also a discovery that raises the DC of the poisons.

Finally there is a prestige class that deals with poisons exclusively, I have not look deeply into it yet though.

You will probably want a Dex-based build for emualting the hashishins, so you will want to take Dervish Dance by 3rd lvl. You can take it at 1st lvl with one lvl dip in dawnflower dervish bard, if you are up to refluffing it to match your background.

EDIT: I just saw the prestige class I was talking about, the Daggermark Poisoner. It certainly makes poisoning viable for other classes, but it does not worth it to multiclass Alchemist with it, as many abilites overlap (with Treacherous Toxin being the only notable exception and the only reason to be tempted to dip. 5 lvls are too many IMO though).

If you are set in going with another class though, Daggermark Poisoner will make it viable to use poisons effectively because of its first lvl Master Poisoner ability, being essentially the same with the Poison Conversion discovery.

Also, the greatest Alchemists where Arabs (although I blieve that they were not Muslims) and the sence of mysticism was there. I am having in my mind now Paolo Cohelo and his book The Alchemist.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Daggermark Poisoner would be one of my first choices (they may not be culturally what I am going for, but they live in an Alamut-like secret fortress!), but it is unfortunately not allowed for PFS play. As for alchemist, I would probably go for that if I wanted an assassin like something from The Witcher, but the mutagens and such really do not fit this particular concept.

Ooh, Dervish Dance sounds like a good idea, very flavorful! Maybe go Spring Attack with a single scimitar, high Acrobatics/mobility, using poison and debuff sneak attack mods from rogue talents to debilitate the opponent. Round 1, standard action to apply poison, move to study favored target. Rounds 2, leap forward into flanking position with fighter, smack target for sneak attack+debuff+poison, leap back with no AoO drawn. Sound like a viable combat strategy?

[XMorsX]

You could do worse certainly, it is not a bad start. But without having access to poison conversion you will never shine, your DCs will be very low to affect the high-CR bosses, and you definately don't want to spend all your poison doses on mooks, right? Maybe you could say that mutagens are drugs (I think that hashishins took their name from the drugged state that they were when commiting their murders? or because of their drug "therapy" that the soultan forced to them in order to make them his marionets?). There have to be some true in my writings, so they chemical boosting could be thematic too.

Unfortunately, poisoning in pathfinder through your weapon is subpar and should be used as a last resort. Alchemists make it at least viable, as long as you can spare the money, because of the inhaled conversion trick. I do not know what else to advice you, because I cannot see how to marry effectively poison usage and a non-alchemist class past lvl 4 or so.

I am tring to think other ways to make such a one-hit KO build matter, but they generally include big bludgeonic weapons with sap master and vital strike, not the typical image of the dexterous and cunning assasin.

In the end, as much as I hate to say it, talking the assasin PrC and using any way possible to raise your DC might be your best bet in order to make 1-hit-assasinations viable. Slayer going into assasin could work I believe. Speaking of which, Ability Focus (Death Attack) and an Assasin's Dagger is +3 to the DC of the Death attack. Now you need to find ways to lower their fortitude saves (like sickening critical). Unless you have access to swift action applying poison in your blade, or an effect similar to the sticky poison discovery, I wouldn't bother with poisons at all.

[Fomsie]

You might be able to make something fitting with a Dervish dancer bard archetype... certainly can fit the flavor.

Another possibility could be using a kensai magus with a dex based build and use a mix of conjuration spells and acid type attacks to simulate the mystical elixirs they would use.

One other idea I thought of was to use a Metal mystery Oracle, perhaps with the clouded vision curse to simulate the glazed eyes often attributed to the hashishim, or perhaps haunted or even legalistic to represent their devotion. Pick up the Iron Weapon and Dance of Blades revelations to simulate their sudden blades and swiftness in battle, then make use of spells to enhance your combat prowess such as Divine Favor and the like.

[XMorsX]

I will just add that the Ability Focus is not allowed in PFS, making the Assasin PrC looking even worse.

I willa gree with Fomsie, that an effective hit-and-run dex-based PC cannot be doen with mundane means only, it needs some magic boost as ti seems. If you are a Kensai you can augment your attack with Spellstrike for example.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Well now, that is disappointing. The Assassin prestige class, along with both the Daggermark Poisoner and Red Mantis Assassin, is not allowed in PFS play. In the former's case, the necessary evil alignment sort of clinches that.

As much as I liked the Slayer, perhaps I will have to look elsewhere. What IS a good build for that class then?

As I said in the initial post, poison would not be the character's main schtick, which is good, since if I wend either Dervish Dancer or Kensai, I don't think I'd be able to get Poison Use without multiclassing. The most powerful poison allowed for regular PC use is Giant Wasp Venom, I believe, at DC 18 not exactly a powerhouse.

[Rhaleroad]

Slayer is a variant class of rogue, so is ninja, so you can't have both classes. Then again, since the book isn't out, who knows what might happen.

[Shadowlord]

AsmodeusUltima wrote:

Ooh, Dervish Dance sounds like a good idea, very flavorful! Maybe go Spring Attack with a single scimitar, high Acrobatics/mobility, using poison and debuff sneak attack mods from rogue talents to debilitate the opponent. Round 1, standard action to apply poison, move to study favored target. Rounds 2, leap forward into flanking position with fighter, smack target for sneak attack+debuff+poison, leap back with no AoO drawn. Sound like a viable combat strategy?

This might work for you.

Race: Human

Class: 1 level Fighter / 7 levels Rogue (Poisoner) / 3 levels Dualist

STR: 11
DEX: 16 (18 after racial adjustment) [1st and 2nd Ability Score increase]
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Traits: Killer / Flame of the Dawnflower

Level / Feats / Talents:
1. Feat: Weapon Finesse // Fighter Feat: Dervish Dance // Human Feat: Shadow Strike
2. Talent: Weapon Training - Scimitar
3. Feat: Dodge
4. Talent: Befuddling Strike (or Bleeding Attack)
5. Feat: Mobility
6. Talent: Swift Poison
7. Feat: Combat Expertise // Extra Talent: Lasting Poison
8. Talent: Ninja Trick - Pressure Points
9. Feat: Gang Up
10.
11. Feat: Spring Attack (or Improved Critical - Scimitar)

You could play around with switching out some Rogue levels for Fighter (Free Hand Fighter archetype) levels or the order of the feats. Look into Boots of Speed, because they are great. Also at 11th level if you find yourself needing 1 AC you can raise your INT by two and take advantage of Canny Defense. A Bane Baldric might be nice for this build too.

[The Shaman]

Hmm, I was about to remind people that rogues and ninjas can be very decent at assassination (anyone sleeping or helpless is Coup de grace material), but it seems the slayer will do a better job of it. For a more supernatural version, do check out the vivisectionist alchemist - some of the class abilities are off and more fitting for a mad scientist, but the combination of dirty fighting, poisoncrafting and alchemical elixirs to strengthen the mind or body might work quite well for you.

[Zwordsman]

Yeah..
PFS really doesn't support the sneaky assassin thing..
Its not valid for this but i made a mindchemist/assassin/master spy who got pretty decent DC for the insta kill attack. Had to hit issues though.

Can you craft poisons (in general or as an alchemist) in PFS? or is it just buying?
Rogue or Ninja will likely be the most useful outside of the alchemist..
BAB takes ahit but a combination of Alch (for mutagen, and the poison stuff) plus ninja isn't too bad. Though I haven't played a ton of PFS.

you can use the testing classes in pfs?

[XMorsX]

Oh yes, Poisoner Rogue, I had forgotten about him. Stricktly speaking, there is no reason to choose him over Alchemist, escept the fact that the take the ability to convert pisons 3 lvls faster. But it can also use the inhaled stacked poison strategy, so it is a great choice if you want to avoid Alchemist.

I do not recommend though to waste resourses for the various rogue talents like Swift and Lasting Poison. I do not recommend in general using your weapon as the mean to poison your enemies. A bottle with inhaled poison is much much more effective. The enemies that do not breath or they are immune to poisons (constructs, undead, outsiders) are also unaffected by a poisoned blade.

This is why I believe that 3 lvls of Poisoner Rogue are enough, 4 with an archetype like Scout on top of it. Continue with fighter lvls. Free Hand Fighter is decent, Lore Warden is a better choice though if you intend to make use of any maneuver, like trip of dirty trick, if you do this dip one lvl in maneuver master monk too.

If you dip one lvl in monk, there is also a flavorful feat, Adder Strike, that lets you apply two doses of poison as swift action to your body to use as a swift action! This alone makes poisoning via your "weapon" viable. Still, the inhaled poison trick should be your main way to poison enemies.

A possible build to take advantage of all the above is:

Poisoner Scout Rogue 4 / Maneuver Master Monk 1 / Lore Warden 3 / Duelist 4

[XMorsX]

Poisoner Scout Rogue 4 / Maneuver Master Monk 1 / Lore Warden Fighter 3 / Duelist 4

1 Rogue Weapon Finesse, Dodge
2 Fighter Dervish Dance
3 Rogue Talent: Minor Magic (Read Magic), Arcane Strike
4 Rogue
5 Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Scimitar), Mobility
6 Monk IUS, Stunning Fist, Improved Dirty Trick
7 Fighter Combat Expertise, Adder Strike, Crane Style
8 Fighter Spring Attack
9 Duelist Greater Dirty Trick
10 Duelist
11 Duelist Whirlwind Attack
12 Duelist

[XMorsX]

Reasonings:

- You want 3 lvls of rogue asap for the poison conversion. One lvl of fighetr at the 2nd lvl for Dervish dance (perform 2 ranks). The 4th vlvl of rogue gives sneak attack on charge. Minor MAgic gives access to Arcane Strike, making both yoir weapon and unarmed strikes able to ignore DR/magic.

- One lvl of maneuver master monk will give you IUS for using Adder strike and a free dirty trick at every full attack. Choose to blind them and then sneak attack them again.

- Lore Warden gives BAB, bonus feats, Combat Expertise for free and a +2 bonus to CMB for more effective dirty tricks.

- Duelist gives bonus damage and has full BAB, so no harm done taking it.

- Since you have dodge and mobility for entering duelist, you may as well take advantage of them with Crane Style, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack.

STR 7
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 12

You do not need Str from 2nd lvl onwards, Cha is pumped so that you can use UMD.

I intentionally left out the Blade of Mercy + Enforcer combination, because I assumed that your guy does not deal non-leathal damage.

[Primus Agnarok]

I feel like trying something like this is gonna spread your classes out so badly, which i think is pretty unwise. Unless you go slayer(which i dont know much about, these playtest classes are ridiculously overpowered from what ive seen) or rogue/ninja, i feel like your not gonna get any one class over level 10-12

[Shadowlord]

XMorsX wrote:

I do not recommend though to waste resourses for the various rogue talents like Swift and Lasting Poison. I do not recommend in general using your weapon as the mean to poison your enemies. A bottle with inhaled poison is much much more effective. The enemies that do not breath or they are immune to poisons (constructs, undead, outsiders) are also unaffected by a poisoned blade.

Fair point on the poisoning talents, might not be that useful. If you are going to use stacked, inhaled poison bombs as your main delivery system these two replacement talents would probably be a good substitution.

Race: Human

Class: 1 level Fighter / 7 levels Rogue (Poisoner) / 3 levels Duelist
Choose Rogue as favored class and take the Human 1/6 Talent option, +1 HP for your 7th Rogue level.

STR: 11
DEX: 16 (18 after racial adjustment) [1st and 2nd Ability Score increase]
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Traits: Killer / Flame of the Dawnflower

Level / Feats / Talents:
1. Feat: Weapon Finesse // Fighter Feat: Dervish Dance // Human Feat: Shadow Strike
2. Talent: Weapon Training - Scimitar
3. Feat: Dodge
4. Talent: Snape Shot
5. Feat: Mobility
6. Talent: Surprise Attack (or Bleeding Attack)
7. Feat: Combat Expertise // Extra Talent: Befuddling Strike (or Bleeding Attack)
8. Talent: Ninja Trick - Pressure Points
9. Feat: Gang Up
10.
11. Feat: Spring Attack (or Improved Critical - Scimitar)

I haven't looked at lore warden so I can't really comment on that vs. Free Hand Fighter levels. However, a Poisoner 3 / Free Hand Fighter 5 / 3 Duelist would be a strong combo, it just depends what class features you want in the mix. I would also consider the Master Alchemist feat, depending on PFS rules on crafting your own poisons.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Wow, those are some very cool builds! XMorsX, I am particularly liking the one you suggested, though I personally might consider taking Quick Dirty Trick instead of Whirlwind Attack so that I could do two dirty tricks in one full attack. Rendering them both blind and entangled could be funny. Then again, the second dirty trick would be less useful as I would have to give up the primary of my two attacks. Hmm...

Oh, and wouldn't the 7 strength still render the unarmed strikes pretty worthless? they would be poisoned, sure, but doing 1d3-2 (+2-3 from Arcane Strike).

Another idea: I could make the character a Tiefling (maybe Div-Spawn for the flavor) so that I would have darkvision (because otherwise not having Shadow Strike could suck), and the SLA would make it so I didn't need to take Minor Magic, can use Combat Rogue to take Dodge at level 3 instead. Viable? Actually, while not as flavorful, a Garuda Spawn Aasimar would be mechanically superior. See Invisibility as an SLA would be nice, and no attribute penalties.

[XMorsX]

You can swap both spring attack and whirlwind attack as you see fit.

Adder strike is there for easy poisoning. Drow Posions makes them unconcious, so the damage will not matter. If you decide not to use injury poisons at all then you can get rid of it too.

Taking Enforcer and dealing non-leathal damage will decrease their saves and will make them more vulnerable to poison, something to consider.

Beffudling Attack is a nice option for replacing minor magic. Improved Critical is always a good alternative to another feat of tis lvl too.

I agree that an Aasimar or tiefling PC would be better, go ahead and do the change. The aasimar would be the best choice, you do nto want to penaltise your Int.

[blackbloodtroll]

If your focus is poison, then Alchemist does it the best.

[Fomsie]

Unfortunately, the best fit over all for your concept would be a vivisectionist Alchemist, but they are not PFS legal.

[AsmodeusUltima]

Alright, after thinking long and hard on it I have decided it is probably best to drop poison from the build altogether. While I thought it was cool, the concept does not strictly need it, and PFS simply nerfs poison too heavily to make it viable. Master Poisoner Rogues are the only characters with guaranteed access to ANY non-injury poisons, so XMorsX's suggestions of bottling poison would only be available if I took levels of that particular class and archetype. Even then, the highest base DC of poison available would be 18, not exactly great. Furthermore, I was unable to locate specific rules for bottling and combining inhaled poisons, and I imagine many PFS GM's would cry foul without specific rules cited.

So, without the poison, I have decided that the best fit for the concept is the stealthy Dirty Trick using Dervish Dancer. Here is what I currently came up with, please let me know if it looks viable:

Hassan al-Din Khurshah
Aasimar(Plumekin)
Base Stats: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10
Faction: Qadira Traits: Desert Shadow, Indomitable Faith

1: Lorewarden Fighter, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
2: Lorewarden Fighter, Combat Expertise, Dervish Dance
3: Maneuver Master Monk of the Four Winds, AC Bonus, Arcane Strike, Elemental Fist, Flurry of Maneuvers, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike
4: Lorewarden Fighter, +1 Dex, Maneuver Mastery +2
5: Lorewarden Fighter, Dodge, Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
6: Lorewarden Fighter, Weapon Training (Heavy Blades)
7: Lorewarden Fighter, Greater Dirty Trick, Mobility
8: Duelist, +1 Dex, Canny Defense, Precise Strike
9: Duelist, Improved Reaction, Parry, Quick Dirty Trick
10: Duelist, Enhanced Mobility
11: Duelist, Combat Reflexes, Grace, Improved Critical (Scimitar)
12: Duelist, +1 Int, Riposte

Equipment: Dueling Scimitar, Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, Gloves of Dueling, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Headband of Mental Prowess (Int & Wis)

The character would add both Int and Wis bonuses to AC; Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training, Arcane Strike, and Precise Strike to damage, with a nice crit range (sorry sneak attack, I prefer static bonuses); and of course enjoys a nice +11BAB +5-7Dex(depending on belt), +1WF, +3 weapon training (with gloves), +2 maneuver master, +4 feats, +1-2 enhancement, +2-4 dueling property for +29-34 CMB on Dirty Tricks, -2 if flurrying. Oh, add in stealth at full speed with no penalty and always handy See Invisibility SLA. Thoughts?

[XMorsX]

You need agile maneuvers in order to add the dex mod to dirty trick CMB.

Also, you definately want to incorporate in your build the new Dirty Trick Master feat.

[AsmodeusUltima]

I thought about that, but here is why it is unclear: the dueling weapon property (the one from the PFS Field Guide, not the one from Ultimate Equipment) states "this (bonus) also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon". Meanwhile, the APG description of the dirty trick maneuver says nothing about being able to use a weapon. So... does one need to use a dueling weapon to utilize a weapon with a dirty trick? Is it always possible, as long as one describes the action as using the weapon (ex: instead of "I throw sand in his eyes to blind him" say "I nick him just above his eye with my sword, causing blood to flow down and blind him.")? Either way, as long as it is possible to use the weapon in a dirty trick at all, if the weapon in question uses Weapon Finesse then one should be able to use Dex in place of Str on the maneuver, since maneuvers that utilize weapons use all relevant feats and modifiers. In any event, I have posed this question to my local PFS Facebook Group to get the opinions of those I will be actually gaming with, and those who would likely be running the games this character would be played in...

As for Dirty Trick Master, I'd love to, but it is not PFS legal, sad to say. :(

[blackbloodtroll]

Is there not a feat that allows one to use a Net, to perform Dirty Trick Maneuvers?

[AsmodeusUltima]

I think it's called Net Trickery, yeah, and it's weird because it only allows for dirty trick to blind, but it also allows for trips and gives bonuses to drag and reposition. So... even more muddied waters in the whole when to use a weapon on a dirty trick question. Maybe there needs to be an FAQ...

[Edelsmirge]

Net adapt
net maneuvering
net trickery to blind an opponent w/ a BAB of +6
so this works with a half orc who have the trait beastmaster and treat nets and whips as martial weapons so as to save the exotic wpn pro as well to this crazy expensive chain

[AsmodeusUltima]

Er, yes. I am not, however, interested in a net-using character at this juncture. Assuming for the sake of argument that one can indeed use a weapon with dirty trick, at least if said weapon has the dueling property, and therefore agile maneuvers is not needed, please critique the build above.