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Not as difficult as following a person posting as two different aliases within a few minutes in the same thread. Just odd.
Lorewalker. How does Scrying tell you where a place is located? Can you explain how that is.
If you take the phrase "know the location and layout" to simply mean know what the place looks like - then your interpretation could be valid. However in which case using both location and layout in the sentence is redundant.
If however you believe 'layout' to be be what a place looks like and 'location' to be where a place is, as I and several others do - the developers for instance - then the clarification in ultimate intrigue merely confirms what the rules have said all along.
Anyway the battle lines seem fairly entrenched on the subject and there seems little point arguing about what words mean. That always ends badly!
Location can not mean, 'where in the world is that 5x5 ft square'. As scrying gives you all that you need to teleport somewhere and being blindfolded, lead to a room and being told to teleport across the room works.
The rules say scrying gives you all you need to know to teleport to a place. Thus, if your version of 'location' says that scrying can't give it to you... your version of 'location' is definitely wrong per RAW. As scrying definitely gives you all that you need to know, which includes need to know the location.
Location is a place. How the furniture is arranged, where people are in the room, is a layout of the place.
Those are not the same thing.
You don't teleport to a building. You teleport to a place in a building, of which you do not need to know where in the building that place is. Only to know enough about the place(having seen it, somehow) to teleport there.
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If you are blindfolded, lead into a chamber miles away and then asked to teleport to the otherside of the room... could you?
You 'don't know your location' as per the definition many have been using here. But, you've seen it. You're actually there.
No, you couldn't. If you have no idea where you were, you do not have a clear idea of the destination. It's really that simple. The clear idea of the destination is tested well before the layout tests (studied carfully, etc) are even checked.
Having a clear idea of the destination is a wholly separate check on whether the teleport is even possible or not. The "studied carefully" is testing the layout of the destination.
That is incorrect.
"You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."
No part of knowing the location of the destination gives a likelyhood of success for teleportation in your view of it. Your view is binary, success or no success. Which would move on to how well you know the layout of destination.
Yet, the rule itself states that the clearness of your knowledge of location and layout modifies the success of your teleporation. Including failing to know the location and layout, via 'false destination.
Thus, instead of checking if you know the destination and layout... and then checking it again... you just check once and based on how Well you know the destination and layout determines success.
Also, no part of the spell checks destination separately from layout.
It is all bundled together.
Location can not mean, 'where in the world is that 5x5 ft square'. As scrying gives you all that you need to teleport somewhere and being blindfolded, lead to a room and being told to teleport across the room works.
The rules say scrying gives you all you need to know to teleport to a place. Thus, if your version of 'location' says that scrying can't give it to you... your version of 'location' is definitely wrong per RAW. As scrying definitely gives you all that you need to know, which includes need to know the location.
Location is a place. How the furniture is arranged, where people are in the room, is a layout of the place.
Those are not the same thing.You don't teleport to a building. You teleport to a place in a building, of which you do not need to know where in the building that place is. Only to know enough about the place(having seen it, somehow) to teleport there.
See Discern Location. Scrying does not give you any sort of information a location that you can relate to anyone else.
That is definitively not the definition of "clear idea of the location" if you cannot relate that location other than "there".
Hell, just being there once doesn't even let you determine the plane of existence the room was in.
Sorry, doesn't qualify. No way, no how.
No part of knowing the location and destination gives a likelyhood of success for teleportation in your view of it. Your view is binary, success or no success. Which would move on to how well you know the layout of destination.
Incorrect, my interpretation is a two part test:
1) Know the location .. a clear idea of the location. This is a binary test. If you can't fulfill this, you are SOL. Your teleport fails altogether, or you get false destination because teleport tries to fulfill the spell to the best of it's ability.
2) Know the layout -- this is where you get the details of the destination so that your attempt to teleport is on target.
Everyone hand waves test #1 and is focusing on test #2 because of that one line example using scrying magic.
You have to pass both tests successfully in order successfully teleport.
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Location can not mean, 'where in the world is that 5x5 ft square'. As scrying gives you all that you need to teleport somewhere and being blindfolded, lead to a room and being told to teleport across the room works.
The rules say scrying gives you all you need to know to teleport to a place. Thus, if your version of 'location' says that scrying can't give it to you... your version of 'location' is definitely wrong per RAW. As scrying definitely gives you all that you need to know, which includes need to know the location.
Location is a place. How the furniture is arranged, where people are in the room, is a layout of the place.
Those are not the same thing.You don't teleport to a building. You teleport to a place in a building, of which you do not need to know where in the building that place is. Only to know enough about the place(having seen it, somehow) to teleport there.
See Discern Location. Scrying does not give you any sort of information a location that you can relate to anyone else.
That is definitively not the definition of "clear idea of the location" if you cannot relate that location other than "there".
Hell, just being there once doesn't even let you determine the plane of existence the room was in.
Sorry, doesn't qualify. No way, no how.
It does, the spell says it does. You can not rewrite the spell in your own head and then tell the world it works by RAW as it does in your head and also be correct
If you definition of 'location' in this case precludes scrying being able to give you it... then your definition is 100% incorrect. Because the spell says scrying gives you what you need.
It is as simple as that. Nothing you can say can rewrite the spell.
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No part of knowing the location and destination gives a likelyhood of success for teleportation in your view of it. Your view is binary, success or no success. Which would move on to how well you know the layout of destination.
Incorrect, my interpretation is a two part test:
1) Know the location .. a clear idea of the location. This is a binary test. If you can't fulfill this, you are SOL. Your teleport fails altogether, or you get false destination because teleport tries to fulfill the spell to the best of it's ability.
2) Know the layout -- this is where you get the details of the destination so that your attempt to teleport is on target.
Everyone hand waves test #1 and is focusing on test #2 because of that one line example using scrying magic.
You have to pass both tests successfully in order successfully teleport.
Not incorrect. You said what I said you were saying. Two parts, first is binary...
But, the spell simply does not work that way. It does not separate layout and location. Both make up the mental picture you must create to make the spell work. That's what the word 'and' means. One, Two both together at the same time. Not one then two, separately.Please, try to cite where it separates the two. And good luck to you in doing so.
Discern Location is a divination spell that gives the target's location:
School divination; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, DF
Range unlimited
Target one creature or object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noA discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.
^ That is the Pathfinder definition of Location.
This is what is "a clear idea of the location".
Note that this is an 8th level spell, there is no sensor involved, it just gives the info. No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Note what this spell does not do: it doesn't reveal the layout of destination at all: what you have to do then in scry the target and then you get your 75% chance for success of viewed once.
This combination of spells is what is needed to "Scry and Fry".
It's not hard. It is just not as easy as just casting scry and then teleporting.
But, the spell simply does not work that way. It does not separate layout and location.
Yes, it does separate layout and location. It's that simple sentence coupled with *and*. Those are a two-part test in any sort of programming languange anywhere.
Without location, you go nowhere, without layout, you go nowhere.
At best without location or without layout you get a false destination based on your description of your destination.
If you definition of 'location' in this case precludes scrying being able to give you it... then your definition is 100% incorrect. Because the spell says scrying gives you what you need.
No, it manifestly does not. That is the hand-waving. What that phrase does is give an example of a method for obtaining information enough to get the layout of a already known location where you think a creature is located -- there is no reference to getting the true location of the target from the scry spell by itself.
Once the location is known, and then use the scry spell on a creature that is at said location, then and only then do you get the "viewed once" category of success.
Since you are scrying a creature and not a location, there isn't even a guarantee that said creature is even at said location. If you cannot see some sort of evidence that confirms the creature is at the location you think it is, you don't teleport to the creature, you teleport somewhere else other than where the creature is.
Scrying does not in any way guarantee the 75% chance for a successful teleport. Paizo's designers, the Scrying spell, teleport spell and the text in Ultimate Intrigue have said as much.
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Discern Location is a divination spell that gives the target's location:
School divination; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, DF
Range unlimited
Target one creature or object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noA discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.
^ That is the Pathfinder definition of Location.
This is what is "a clear idea of the location".
Note that this is an 8th level spell, there is no sensor involved, it just gives the info. No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Note what this spell does not do: it doesn't reveal the layout of destination at all: what you have to do then in scry the target and then you get your 75% chance for success of viewed once.
This combination of spells is what is needed to "Scry and Fry".
It's not hard. It is just not as easy as just casting scry and then teleporting.
Wrong.
Discern location gives you all you would need to walk to a place given your location in any plane of existence and a very expansive map.But teleporting does not require you to know anything that detailed. It only needs you to have seen a place. Having actually been there to view it is optional. But having physically viewed it gives you a much higher chance of seeing it.
You realize, of course, discern location would not allow you to teleport anywhere. You have not seen the location. You only know of it. Just as reading a map would not give you a location, as is needed by the spell.
You must see the location, in some form, to teleport somewhere.
If I, as a wizard with teleport, stand on top of a mountain and currently lost view a house somewhere in a valley below... I can teleport there merely because I can see it. I don't even need to know the plane I'm on.
Otherwise, according to your view, no one can teleport anywhere till they have discern location and have seen a place. Or have spent a very very long time with maps and geographical measuring tools.
Scrying would never be enough, in your view.
But, scrying is enough. As per the spell.
Wrong.
Discern location gives you all you would need to walk to a place given your location in any plane of existence and a very expansive map.
You did not read everything that I wrote. I said, explicitly, that in order to Scry and Fry, no only do you need to use Discern Location to get the target's current location, but also use Scry on said creature to get the layout of the destination
But teleporting does not require you to know anything that detailed. It only needs you to have seen a place. Having actually been there to view it is optional. But having physically viewed it gives you a much higher chance of...
More hand-waving. Everyone plays this way because they don't want to go through the tedium of making these qualifications all the time to the GM. That doesn't make it any less hand-waving.
It's become a "convenient travel method" for high level players. It doesn't make it any less wrong.
If I, as a wizard with teleport, stand on top of a mountain and currently lost view a house somewhere in a valley below... I can teleport there merely because I can see it. I don't even need to know the plane I'm on.Otherwise, according to your view, no one can teleport anywhere till they have discern location and have seen a place. Or have spent a very very long time with maps and geographical measuring tools.
Scrying would never be enough, in your view.
Line of sight (or rather relative direction and distance) are enough to teleport -- if you can see it (aka know the layout), you get a good chance of arriving on target. If relative direction and distance are "blind" (you can't see it), you'll need some other method of determining layout -- like clairvoyance, etc.
Scry doesn't even give this. You do not know, based on the description of the scry spell, the relative direction or distance to that creature.
If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and its surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject).
There is no reference to *where* the target is, just that he is "there" and the layout of where "there" is.
In order to teleport, you need to know the information that is provided in Discern Location and what the information provided by the scry spell.
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If you definition of 'location' in this case precludes scrying being able to give you it... then your definition is 100% incorrect. Because the spell says scrying gives you what you need.
No, it manifestly does not. That is the hand-waving. What that phrase does is give an example of a method for obtaining information enough to get the layout of a already known location where you think a creature is located -- there is no reference to getting the true location of the target from the scry spell by itself.
Once the location is known, and then use the scry spell on a creature that is at said location, then and only then do you get the "viewed once" category of success.
Since you are scrying a creature and not a location, there isn't even a guarantee that said creature is even at said location. If you cannot see some sort of evidence that confirms the creature is at the location you think it is, you don't teleport to the creature, you teleport somewhere else other than where the creature is.
Scrying does not in any way guarantee the 75% chance for a successful teleport. Paizo's designers, the Scrying spell, teleport spell and the text in Ultimate Intrigue have said as much.
When you scry, you see a place around the person. That is in many of the abilities which target people and then scry on them.
It may not be far, which may not be enough. But if the person moves around the room that 10x10, such as Scrying gives, turns into a much larger area.The scrying spell does not say so. The teleport spell does not say so.
A creative director, who is not a rules developer, has suggested so. But his word is not law.
The game allows scrying to teleport you to a place. This is certain. The spell uses your knowledge of location and layout to determine how well you succeed at teleporting.
Even the false destination option clearly references location. So, not just layout is being checked.
"“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from."
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If I, as a wizard with teleport, stand on top of a mountain and currently lost view a house somewhere in a valley below... I can teleport there merely because I can see it. I don't even need to know the plane I'm on.Otherwise, according to your view, no one can teleport anywhere till they have discern location and have seen a place. Or have spent a very very long time with maps and geographical measuring tools.
Scrying would never be enough, in your view.
Line of sight (or rather relative direction and distance) are enough to teleport -- if you can see it (aka know the layout), you get a good chance of arriving on target. If relative direction and distance are "blind" (you can't see it), you'll need some other method of determining layout -- like clairvoyance, etc.
Scry doesn't even give this. You do not know, based on the description of the scry spell, the relative direction or distance to that creature.
If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and its surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject).
There is no reference to *where* the target is, just that he is "there" and the layout of where "there" is.
In order to teleport, you need to know the information that is provided in Discern Location and what the information provided by the scry spell.
Incorrect again. Seeing is enough. You don't even have to physically see a place to teleport there. As per 'viewed once' Thus, you can not be correct in that it is based on knowing relative position to yourself.
You are separating two things as two tests... when they are being tested together. And then, condescendingly calling that hand-waving. When you are the one making up rules on the fly.
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For proof of scrying working for teleport, see Dungeon Issue 113, page 63. I understand there to be an example in a Pathfinder issue as well.
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I really do not wish to dig through 400+ posts to find this clarification by Paizo can someone drop a link to it please.
The original post in this thread says that it is "answered in the errata".
This post from last Thursday, Mar 16 says:Ultimate Intrigue clears this up, and though the option isn't called "answered in book", "answered in errata" seemed the most accurate of the buttons available, since it wasn't a FAQ, it's not no response required, and it's not question unclear.
Ultimate Intrigue has not officially been released yet, so no one can actually post direct quotes from the book. By Wednesday of this week, there will be official quotes directly from the book that will make all these pages of argument moot.*
*which does not mean that they won't keep accruing.
You don't need to see the destination.
That is correct, but you need to know where the destination is or have a reliable description of the destination in some fashion that makes said destination unique in order to teleport reliably.
You will notice that said description has nothing to do with the layout.
This is basically what I call the Lifeline test.
If you have fallen and can't get up, but have called 911, can you direct the EMTs to where you are?
That is a location. Notice, no one cares whether the front door is locked, or where the furniture is located (aka layout) until they actually get there.
Up to that point, it's immaterial.
You need to know the location in both teleport and greater teleport. This is separate from knowing the layout (how the furniture is arranged).
These are distinct elements.
I just googled "layout of a building". What was the result -- maps of a building.
I also just googled "location of a building" and what were the result? Addresses.
The layout did not include an address and the address did not include a floorplan of the building.
They are separate things. You need them both, they are both tested separately, scry does not provide the address of the creature you are scrying. If you can see a creature in a building via scry, you get the layout of the room (basically a map of the room), what you do NOT get is the location of said building.
You must get the location using a different method -- scry does not do it.
So, yet again it seems like you are saying you need to know where you are to teleport to a destination, even if that destination is very familiar, like your house. Because without knowing where you are, you can't actually 'program' the missile/teleport.
Having been in the U.S. Navy, I can tell you with absolute certainty, having floated in the middle of different oceans for at least a year and change of my life that you do *not* need to know your origination point in order to put a tomahawk missle through their front door. All you need is a location of where that front door is (gps with altitude is enough).
If you launch the missile, and the location of the door is out of range, it runs out of fuel and fails to reach it's target. It is like the 5th level teleport in this way.
This is also what teleport requires. Scry gives you absolutely none of this information. You cannot launch a tomahawk missle based on a television broadcast (scry). There isn't enough information to go on.
Prior to UI, there were two competing but plausible interpretations.
1.) "Have some clear idea of location and layout" means you need to have a clearly defined place and a sense of what it looks or is shaped like. The fact that no more is specified about the "location" part of the requirement is indicative of the fact that it's not a distinct part of the conditions. This is the pre-UI position of Lorekeeper and TOZ.
2.) Location isn't used as a synonym of "place" in the above quote. It's a separately substantive requirement that you need to have a sense for where you're going on a broader scale. The reason this isn't expanded upon is there's not really shades of knowing the location.
I have subscribed to option 2 for a few years now. UI makes it clear that's also the stance of the (current) designers.
^ this would be someone that disagrees with your "it's proven".
Lorewalker, you have an interpetation of the text of teleport. However, many, including myself, Diego Rossi, and Berinor (above) disagree with that interpretation.
Who else also happens to disagree with that interpretation? The Game designers (in this thread) as well as the text of Ultimate Intrigue, which put forth the official interpretation of Paizo.
Yours is not that interpretation. All that UI did was give greater explanation to how both Scry and Teleport work, it did not change the text of either spell, yet they explicitly state that Scry does not fulfill all the criteria needed to Teleport.
You are not playing according to RAW if you hold to your interpretation.
It's as simple as that. "That's how we have always played it" is not sufficient to establish accurately -- as an example, I'll point to the somewhat recent clarification on how Rings of Invisibility as written by the CRB actually work.
UI makes it clear that's also the stance of the (current) designers.Much as 'you can not flurry with a single weapon' was the stance of the designers before. I don't expect there to be as big an outcry over this change however. It's quite a niche tactic.
No one said that this stance is not subject to change. We are only relating what it is now.
The game can and will change. Play it how you like.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
Must = required. location = address, layout = interior design.
If you don't know where your destination is, you can't get there.
Common sense.
If you teleport to a location you think exists but does not in actuality, that is no different. Teleport happens, but you don't get to your destination (this is an auto-failure of your scry and fry effort).
You'll teleport, yeah, but you won't be frying what you wanted to at the other end. It's a failure in all but name.
You will note that under those conditions, there is no chance of success using a false destination -- when you don't have an accurate location of your destination.
It is still not a single test, you just auto-jump to false destination regardless of whether you know the layout around the creature you are trying to fry.
If you don't know where he is, you'll go someplace, but it won't be where he is. Teleport tries to get you there, but can't, essentially.
UI makes it clear that's also the stance of the (current) designers.Much as 'you can not flurry with a single weapon' was the stance of the designers before. I don't expect there to be as big an outcry over this change however. It's quite a niche tactic.
Was there somewhere that it was clear the previous stance was my option 1? I know you cited an adventure and alluded to another, but the 3.5 era one was as a licensed third party to the rules then and even a Pathfinder example could easily be an oversight. It's not unprecedented for them to slip through with broken rules and taking a position opposite the party line here is a smaller error than that.
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You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
Must = required. location = address, layout = interior design.
If you don't know where your destination is, you can't get there.
Common sense.
Please cite.
You must input a destination into the spell as part of the spell. A failed location reference is handled by the familiarity test.Please show us where a separate test of location validity is written.
If you teleport to a location you think exists but does not in actuality, that is no different. Teleport happens, but you don't get to your destination (this is an auto-failure of your scry and fry effort).You'll teleport, yeah, but you won't be frying what you wanted to at the other end. It's a failure in all but name.
You will note that under those conditions, there is no chance of success using a false destination -- when you don't have an accurate location of your destination.
It is still not a single test, you just auto-jump to false destination regardless of whether you know the layout around the creature you are trying to fry.
If you don't know where he is, you'll go someplace, but it won't be where he is. Teleport tries to get you there, but can't, essentially.
That is not 'no different' than your
"Wrong again, if the location fails, its no different than if it were out of range. The spell fails altogether."In the case of 'location only test fails' in your example, you say that the teleport does not happen. That is being kinder than the spell.
The single familiarity test would give you a 'false destination' if you get the location or layout wrong. Which would teleport you, but not to where you wish to go. There is no point in the spell where it says it fails, except for failing to find a similar area within reach when you achieve a 'similar area' result.
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I know you cited an adventure and alluded to another, but the 3.5 era one was as a licensed third party to the rules then and even a Pathfinder example could easily be an oversight. It's not unprecedented for them to slip through with broken rules and taking a position opposite the party line here is a smaller error than that.
James outright said that he has changed his mind since that 3.5 example.
Please show us where a separate test of location validity is written.
You must input a destination into the spell as part of the spell. A failed location reference is handled by the familiarity test.
And the familiarity test is a compound one. You input a destination, and knowledge of the layout. The required parameters of the spell.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
As how it works in programming languages, the first required condition in the if statement is location, that is tested first. If that fails, you go to jail and do not collect $200. Because at that point the entire test fails. You know this. If location fails, layout is superfluous.
You still teleport, but you won't get to where you want to go, there is no successfully reaching your desired destination under those conditions. You either get a "similar area" which is not your actual destination or you get a mishap.
See the chart under "False Destination".
Greater Teleport changes this. If you input an invalid destination, you teleport, but you arrive back where you started.