i might use a temporary save or suck, or a nonlethal short duration save or lose a turn, but i won't often use save or roll a new character.I'm not a fan of save-or-die either, but that doesn't mean I won't use them every once in a while. Save-or-suck even moreso. What's the challenge if your enemy has great abilities but doesn't use them? They were factored into the CR for a reason....
That aside, I came in here specially with Stinking Cloud in mind, but any Save-or-you-might-as-well-go-home spells are things I think should be avoided by a DM.
I rarely use SoD too often at low levels and not often at mid levels. At high levels, the characters (and players) should be expecting and preparing for bad things. If they want to play with the big boys they need to come prepared. Scrolls of death ward and raise dead are not that painfully expensive.
I don't use SoS very often at low levels (unless the DC is low and I use it mostly just to scare them a bit). At mid levels these become fairly common. At high levels they become pretty constant. Again, the characters (and players) should be expecting and preparing for bad things. If you find you are sitting out of fights too often because you keep failing your saves all the time, well maybe that's a weakness you should address. Possibly it will hint that it might be beneficial to get a +3 cloak of resistance instead of yet another + on the mondo blade of snickersnackedness.
Yeah, they might sit out a fight. But they are not done for the entire gaming session.
I tend to follow wealth by level for NPCs. That puts limits on spells that have costly material components such as wish or simulacrum.
I don't like to use Euphoric Tranquility on the players. I tend to not use spells that provide no save or means to counter during a combat.
Congratulations, Blood Money solves your NPC wealth problem. You just gotta know the right spells and items.
For example, the spell Form of the Dragon III gives you a +10 size bonus to Strength. The spell Blood Rage will give you up to a +10 morale bonus to strength. The Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess will give you a temporary +8 inherent bonus to strength. A Belt of Physical Might will give you up to a +6 enhancement bonus to strength.
All together, you've got a +34 bonus to strength between those 4 abilities, even if you dump strength to 6, you've still got a 40 strength that can be used to fuel Blood Money.
It gets even more fun if your NPC is something like a Stone Giant Wizard or something.
Seriously, material costs for spells is basically a non-entity if you know how to bypass them.
Solves nothing. No wizard is going to get all that to cast wish once and then risk getting hit by something that removes even a little bit of strength leaving him paralyzed and immobile.
This is the kind of theory-crafting argument that leads to foolish presumptions concerning the abilities of casters. Game doesn't work like that no matter how much you want to make it seem like it does.
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Solves nothing. No wizard is going to get all that to cast wish once and then risk getting hit by something that removes even a little bit of strength leaving him paralyzed and immobile.
This is the kind of theory-crafting argument that leads to foolish presumptions concerning the abilities of casters. Game doesn't work like that no matter how much you want to make it seem like it does.
Maybe your game doesn't work like that, but theirs could, so no reason to try to claim a universal fault here. Besides, any Wizard casting this has a Restoration on speed dial so they're not weak as a newborn kitten with a degenerative muscle condition for any longer than they have to be.
It really does give a good idea of how aware people are of stats, like knowing just how much Strength you need to actually pull it off.
It actually amuses me to think that the 'ancient ritual of the past' could simply be the tools and steps to a massive T0 level exploit, like the right combination of spells to get free Wishes being something that helped contribute to a kingdom's downfall into decadence.
I don't like using Anti-Magic Field simply because of the amount of book-keeping and stat-re-configuring that occurs, usually eating up a solid 5+ minutes of game as everyone figures out what their "magic-less" to hit bonus is coupled with their saves, AC, skills, and what-not. Inevitably, someone has to look up several abilities to figure out if they're supernatural or extraordinary. It's not as if any character sheet I've ever seen has a "Magic-less" AC, so this always slows the game to a crawl.
On another note, while I will use any Save-or-Sucks, I will not use Plane Shift offensively. While it's one of the best tactics for a lot of monsters (escape and isolate one of my enemies with me? Yes, please!), half of the planes might as well be death-sentences themselves, and then you're stuck either reneging the spell by allowing the PC to escape or rolling randomnly on a chart of awefullness. The end result is usually about 45 minutes of game time devoted to telling how one PC gets to a horrible place that they can't escape from. At best, it can be a role-playing opportunity, but at the expense of everyone else playing as they watch the stuck PC go about getting back.
Our group actually made a pact that even if we could, long as no one cast mage's disjunction on one another (players or DM) we would pretend it's not there. So far it's been to everyone's benefit.
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There are lots of kinds of games. Some more deadly than others.
I'm in an old-school campaign right now where a PC death occurs with frightening regularity. One year in, only a single character remains who was there at the beginning.
It lends an air of menace and risk that is hard to capture in games where the DM pulls his punches. Every encounter is approached with caution and preparation - which means much more role playing in order to accomplish this. Combat is a last resort, not the default go-to.
Every table has its own tolerance level.
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I think the other thing to take into account when it comes to which spells to use and which not to is what your players enjoy and what you enjoy.
That being said, I'm not a fan of SoD spells. So I try to avoid those sorts of things. But you want your players to be worried about what might happen, be preparing for things.
Yeah, they might sit out a fight. But they are not done for the entire gaming session.
The way the game tends to go with my group is that combats take forever; if you get knocked out of the combat you might not be able to participate in most of the session. If this isn't the case with your group then I can definitely see where you're coming from.
I can't think of any single-use spell I wouldn't use on my PCs that I've not banned from the game (which I think currently only consists of the "half elf only, I get a feat" spell, but I may be wrong as I don't have my house rules list handy).
That said, there are some combinations of things I wouldn't allow (like having a low-level badguy burn their entire WBL on a scroll of meteor swarm or something similar, or using gate / summons with timestop which I ban for metaphysical reasons from both PCs & NPCs). The Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Sphere / Blade Barrier inside a Force Cage types of tactics I generally only use when PCs know it's hit that "oh crap" level.
IMHO being willing to challenge PCs sometimes means that death (or worse) can happen. Some folks enjoy different play styles, though, so YMMV as always.
-TimD
Solves nothing. No wizard is going to get all that to cast wish once and then risk getting hit by something that removes even a little bit of strength leaving him paralyzed and immobile.
This is the kind of theory-crafting argument that leads to foolish presumptions concerning the abilities of casters. Game doesn't work like that no matter how much you want to make it seem like it does.
Maybe your game doesn't work like that, but theirs could, so no reason to try to claim a universal fault here. Besides, any Wizard casting this has a Restoration on speed dial so they're not weak as a newborn kitten with a degenerative muscle condition for any longer than they have to be.
It really does give a good idea of how aware people are of stats, like knowing just how much Strength you need to actually pull it off.
It actually amuses me to think that the 'ancient ritual of the past' could simply be the tools and steps to a massive T0 level exploit, like the right combination of spells to get free Wishes being something that helped contribute to a kingdom's downfall into decadence.
I calculated this out myself. I actually don't mind the use of exploits if the game designers allow them in. I wanted to find a cheap way to boost my stats by chain casting wish without the need for the cost 25,000 gold component. Almost no way to do it without it becoming massively over complicated. You have to synchronize a bunch of restoration casting clerics to pull it off. It might be easier with alchemists with infusion, I didn't investigate that yet. Getting the strength to begin with is extremely difficult and time consuming.
As far as casting wish, it's not such a useful spell that casting it one time and suffering a massive reduced strength would be a very efficient use of resources. Soon as that tactic was determined to be something a wizard did during a combat situation, he would have an opponent waiting to exploit it and kill him very quickly.
It's one of those theory crafting ideas that some poster makes sound easy, then when you try to do it you find out it isn't worth it.
The djinni binding is an easier path to wish than blood money.
Combat situation? No.
Non-combat situation? Definitely a solid tactic.
Though yes, there are easier ways. Making an Efreet Simulacrum is three times as effective. Especially if you do THAT with Blood Money.
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Plane shift as an offensive spell. Nothing bogs down a session faster than dealing with the fighter's new solo adventure on the Plane of Fire.
Ifriti Binding is an even easier and even more effective path to wish than Blood Money or even Djinni Binding. a wizard can do it as early as 11th level, and all Ifrit can grant wishes, unlike Djinni, which requires a Noble Djinni, plus the Ifriti can do it much more often
in fact, the Djinni of the Lamp, was probably an Ifriti considering how easily he could provide wishes and how willing he was to offer them to anyone whom rubbed the lamp.
Plane shift as an offensive spell. Nothing bogs down a session faster than dealing with the fighter's new solo adventure on the Plane of Fire.
I dunno, I'd figure the adjudication would be pretty quick there.
GM: "Do you have Fire Resistance?"
Fighter: "No."
GM: "You burn to death. Moving on..."
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Plane shift as an offensive spell. Nothing bogs down a session faster than dealing with the fighter's new solo adventure on the Plane of Fire.I dunno, I'd figure the adjudication would be pretty quick there.
GM: "Do you have Fire Resistance?"
Fighter: "No."
GM: "You burn to death. Moving on..."
"No. I have cold immunity and have coated my entire body in brown mold."
And on that day the plane of brown mold was born.
There's no spell that I won't use on the PCs.
There are spells that I wouldn't use lightly, but none that I wouldn't use ever.
Plane shift as an offensive spell. Nothing bogs down a session faster than dealing with the fighter's new solo adventure on the Plane of Fire.I dunno, I'd figure the adjudication would be pretty quick there.
GM: "Do you have Fire Resistance?"
Fighter: "No."
GM: "You burn to death. Moving on..."
Maybe. But maybe he has a ring of fire resistance or a potion of resist fire handy.
GM: "Do you have Pane Shift as a spell known?"
Fighter: "No."
GM: "Well you're alive for now but eventually you'll starve to death, or more likely die of thirst. Roll up a new character."
This is all assuming nobody else in the party can cast Plane Shift, of course. In which case it's as simple as "I cast Plane Shift to go get him and Plane Shift back."
It only bogs down the session if you let it, really. Worst case scenario Joe has to sit out the session for a while while the rest of the party figures out how to get him back. Which sucks, and is the reason why I don't particularly like the tactic, but better than having Joe's Solo Adventure making everyone else sit out.
Except plane shift is not exactly accurate: you can arrive hundreds of miles off target. Assuming you know where to go in the first place. And meanwhile that ring of resist fire isn't going to run out, and the fighter has every right to start hunting for a efreeti or something that can send him home.
Or maybe you did it to the cleric, who can prep Plane Shift for himself, but is now separated from the party by some hundreds of miles.
It's much simpler to use Slay Living instead, but then you hit a different save.
But at least Resurrection is simpler than a sub-quest.
Except plane shift is not exactly accurate: you can arrive hundreds of miles off target. Assuming you know where to go in the first place. And meanwhile that ring of resist fire isn't going to run out, and the fighter has every right to start hunting for a efreeti or something that can send him home.
Or maybe you did it to the cleric, who can prep Plane Shift for himself, but is now separated from the party by some hundreds of miles.
It's much simpler to use Slay Living instead, but then you hit a different save.
But at least Resurrection is simpler than a sub-quest.
But possibly not as fun.
My list:
Wish
Miracle
Vengeful Gaze of God
Greater Hellball
Incarnate Apocalypse
Summon Tarrasque
Summon Azathoth
My list:
Wish
Miracle
Vengeful Gaze of God
Greater Hellball
Incarnate Apocalypse
Summon Tarrasque
Summon Azathoth
So Summon Chtulhu is ok? What about the "Rocks Fall" spell?
So Summon Chtulhu is ok? What about the "Rocks Fall" spell?My list:
Wish
Miracle
Vengeful Gaze of God
Greater Hellball
Incarnate Apocalypse
Summon Tarrasque
Summon Azathoth
Yeah, both of those are okay. The Rocks Fall spell has actually been intentionally used by players before to counter an unwinnable scenario.
I was left dumbfounded. But they were right; it was preferable to the alternative.
Edit: Just to note, they knew it was unwinnable before we even sat down to play. So metagaming, in that case, wasn't actually cheating; it was considered an acceptable part of the game. Their objective was to counter the unwinnability of the scenario.
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Plane shift as an offensive spell. Nothing bogs down a session faster than dealing with the fighter's new solo adventure on the Plane of Fire.I dunno, I'd figure the adjudication would be pretty quick there.
GM: "Do you have Fire Resistance?"
Fighter: "No."
GM: "You burn to death. Moving on...""No. I have cold immunity and have coated my entire body in brown mold."
And on that day the plane of brown mold was born.
Oh god. That's the subject of an adventure right there: The PCs are hired by salamanders who have reason to suspect their enemies are planning to smuggle in a sample of brown mold. The PCs must work with these evil outsiders to protect the many non-evil entities on the plane.
you can arrive hundreds of miles off target
The sun's awful big, y'know.
Plane shift can't aim for the sun, and you have to travel with the subject of teleport.
Plane shift can't aim for the sun, and you have to travel with the subject of teleport.
Plane shift to the Positive Energy Plane. That places kills everything.
Positive energy? As in the stuff that I channel to heal everyone? I'd think a trip there would be quite relaxing. You're always invigorated and healthful, never really all that tired. Sounds like the perfect spot for a honeymoon, or any form of couple's retreat.
You'd think the place that is the source of life would be beneficial to life, but you'd be wrong. That place literally kills everything that stays there unless it has some sort of defense against the plane (such as Planar Adaptation).
The Positive Energy Plane has the following traits:
•Subjective Directional Gravity
•Major Positive-Dominant: Some regions of the plane have the minor positive-dominant trait instead, and those islands tend to be inhabited.
•Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use positive energy are enhanced. Class abilities that use positive energy, such as channel positive energy, gain a +4 bonus to the save DC to resist the ability.
•Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use negative energy (including inflict spells) are impeded.
An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. Like negative-dominant planes, positive-dominant planes can be either minor or major. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.
Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.
Even things like Constructs that visit the plane gain the fast healing because it's an extraordinary ability (and hiding in an Antimagic Field won't help either). Every thing that visits the plane will die very shortly since they will eventually roll a natural 1 if nothing else.
Funnily enough, an undead spell caster can visit the plane and benefit from healing because it's not positive energy, it's fast healing. However, they will die as well if they stay there.
Plop someone down in the negative energy plane if you really want a laugh
Problem with the Nega Plane is twofold: Doesn't deal with your Undead baddies, and in fact may kill your current foe and then TURN HIM INTO an Undead baddy if your GM feels like having some fun.
Nah. Positive Energy Plane is the safer bet. =)
Yeah, they might sit out a fight. But they are not done for the entire gaming session.The way the game tends to go with my group is that combats take forever; if you get knocked out of the combat you might not be able to participate in most of the session. If this isn't the case with your group then I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Our fights used to drag on forever as people discussed tactics and looked up options. And they were getting longer not shorter as people started learning about more spells, tactics, and options. We were starting to push2+ hours on very simple and short 2-3 round fights.
.So we made some 'table rules' I guess you could call them.
- Discussing tactics amongst players can only be done if the characters are shouting at each other during the fight. Which often means the opposition can hear and counter you plans.
- You only have about 10 seconds to decide on your actions. You actually get substantially more time since you should be thinking about it on the other people turns, not playing on your phone.
- Less strict, but you only get about 30 seconds to describe what you are doing for you action. If you can't describe it pretty quick it probably isn't reasonable that you could do it in under 6 seconds. This is less tightly held, if it seems reasonable that it is possible just hard to describe.
- we generally don't put any limit on how long it takes to actually do your actions (roll and add dice, make saves, etc...). However, if every single time you have to find a book to look up what your spell does or add up all you attack and damage bonuses you may get skipped while your character "tries to recall how the spell works."
- We cut a lot of slack for players that are new to the group or game.
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This has sped things up tremendously. Now it is only boss fights that go longer than an hour. Plus the players are starting to make plans before metal is clashing.
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a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.
So, assuming everyone knew how the Positive Energy Plane worked, it might go like this:
Party's fighter is Plane Shifted there by bad guy.Rest of party wins battle.
The party's caster then has to prepare Plane Shift twice; probably taking eight hours of rest.
The caster shifts to the P.E.P. and arrives a couple of hundred miles away from the fighter. He must use magic to find the fighter, then get to him, then shift him home. This will take a while.
To survive during this time they must repeatedly stab themselves to get rid of the unwanted temporary hit points.
It's been my experience that players will quickly lose hope in the face of permanent effects such as mummy rot or bestow curse.
Nevertheless, I tend not to shy away from such things, though I might hesitate to bestow curse someone with amnesia causing the player character to lose all memories, class abilities, feats, and skill ranks.
If there isn't air on the positive energy plane, I'm sure the healing effects will fix any suffocation damage. There's also the problem that you're bound to fall asleep eventually, at which point you have about three minutes before you explode, but it's hard to fall asleep while stabbing yourself every few seconds.
Anyway, it wouldn't really matter much if the original victim died since anyone with the magic ability to make the expedition would surely be able to manage a Raise Dead. A bigger risk is if some pure caster with no melee ability is making the rescue attempt, and they have only a puny 1d4 dagger to stab themselves with.
Plane shift can't aim for the sun
Wait, why not?
Because it has to send them to a different plane, not another spot on the same one?Plane shift can't aim for the sunWait, why not?
Some people might think it's possible from another plane, but the "distant worlds" splatbook seems to suggest otherwise. I dont remeber the exact reason, but they were basically saying that travel (in another plane) cannot easily connect you to another celestial body, and that it was somewhat easier in the material plane.
Blood money is a weird spell. I'm currently reading Rise of the Runelords and keeping an eye out for anyone other than Karzoug even knowing the thing.
I seek to run challenging combats, but I tend to avoid doing things to the PCs that I know that they aren't able to fix, because that can lead to significant player frustration.
My games tend to become much more lethal once the party can reliably access raise dead, resurrection, etc.
Because it has to send them to a different plane, not another spot on the same one?Plane shift can't aim for the sunWait, why not?
Well, yeah, but if you're already on the Plane of Air, you can just shift and set "the center of the sun" as your preferred location.
Some people might think it's possible from another plane, but the "distant worlds" splatbook seems to suggest otherwise. I dont remeber the exact reason, but they were basically saying that travel (in another plane) cannot easily connect you to another celestial body, and that it was somewhat easier in the material plane.
BAH! Foiled again by my own cheapness.
It's been my experience that players will quickly lose hope in the face of permanent effects such as mummy rot or bestow curse.You consider those permanent? I don't. It may take some time to remove, but they're hardly permanent effects.
Try and tell my players that. I hit them with the above and they act like it's the end of the world (even though, realistically, they will only have to deal with it for a few encounters, at most).
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Blood money is a weird spell. I'm currently reading Rise of the Runelords and keeping an eye out for anyone other than Karzoug even knowing the thing.
I seek to run challenging combats, but I tend to avoid doing things to the PCs that I know that they aren't able to fix, because that can lead to significant player frustration.
My games tend to become much more lethal once the party can reliably access raise dead, resurrection, etc.
I love asking that question to my players.
"I cast transmute blood to acid on him."
"Ok, quick question, how did you character learn that spell?"
"When I leveled up I cracked open Ultimate Magic!"
"No how did you CHARACTER learn it?"
"Well how did Karzoug learn anything he has?"
"He's a Runelord...he researched it, sacrificing as many lives as were needed."
"Can I just cast the spell?"
"Sigh...fine."
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I'm failing to see why someone knowing Blood Money would be such a big deal. It isn't a difficult leap to realize you could sacrifice part of your own life's essence to fuel your magic. Besides, it's requiring you to burn two spells per day just to be able to cast one single spell. It's really not at all an unbalanced ability if one considers a few things about it. Inflicting stat damage on yourself for higher cost magics is pretty damn bad if you're in a situation where you can't quickly recover it, for example, and this is in addition to needing to burn two of your daily spells on that one blood money fueled spell.