I've been pouring over the forums and the books and can't seem to wrap my head around Wild Shape. I'm pretty sure I understand what the rules say, but I don't think the RAW makes any sense. When a druid uses wild shape to turn into a large bear for example; she gets a +4 str, and if she's the typical druid, she'll probably have a 10 or a 12, the rarer one may have a 14. With this increase, from changing into a large bear, that gives most druids at best, an 18. A dire bear has a 25 strength, that seems vastly underscaled to me. On the other hand, let's assume the rules normally allow you to add the size scale modifier listed in the bestiary. Going from a medium to large creature gives you a +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con. That druid with the 14 str would then have a 22, which is closer to the dire bear's stats, and then if you go ahead and add the magical bonus, the stronger than average druid would have a 26 strength. Just barely stronger than the dire bear. So, we either have here; a +4 or a +12... Why can't there be some sort of middle ground? I'm in agreement that being able to have a druid's mental stats, plus a dire bears physical stats is incredibly powerful. But only getting a +4? That doesn't seem quite strong enough. I feel that this especially sucks for druids who want to focus on wild shaping and have a cool fighting style with it. I wanted to make a Bear Shaman who would be the symbolic "protector" of the group. Picking up feats that allow me to block attacks against allies, grapple foes going for our spellcasters, etc. But since I have to pour most of my stats into wisdom, and make sure I have at least a mediocre charisma so that I can handle animal effectively, I would need a good constitution for the protector-like hp, a decent strength so that I can hit the threats, and a decent dexterity so that I can have a decent AC, because I'm not going to get my armor bonus in wild shape until I can afford a +4 item, which on average is 14-18th level. And the listed natural armor bonus of +4 for a large creature is the best I'll get. Lastly, I can't even become a frickin' huge bear because there isn't a huge bear, and I can only wild shape into an animal I'm familiar with. That right there makes a bear shaman suck even more because he's pretty much limited to bear shape, and can't even make a decent use of the wild shape he's given. Am I just missing something, or did druids get the shaft in Pathfinder?
Druid with less than 16 strength?
No need to look at the other chart since you are starting off as medium.
Archetypes tend to be awful with some notable exceptions. Like most support for classes outside of the book they were printed in or the CRB.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.
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You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.
This isn't true.
You may have to settle with only starting with 16 wis though.
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You shouldn't be comparing the bonuses for wild shape with bestiary stats for animals, you should compare them to druids without wild shape. +4 Strength is +4 Strength. If you want to fight like a dire bear in combat, I suggest you focus on pumping up your Strength, not your Wisdom. The problems with wild shape mostly come to, "Oh, and I'd still like to have 9th level spells, too." Well, guess what? You don't get to fight like a barbarian and also get 9th level spells. Also, if you want to focus on being a bear, a class that doesn't get that ability until 4th level is probably not the best choice. Perhaps a third party book might offer you what you want; RGG's The Talented Barbarian opens up the possibility of playing a full BAB, bear-shaped dude with some limited divine casting.
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You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.
This isn't even remotely true. Wildshape is still a powerful ability and Druids are still one of the most powerful classes in the game.
They just don't outstrip most others quite so readily anymore, which is a good thing.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.This isn't even remotely true. Wildshape is still a powerful ability and Druids are still one of the most powerful classes in the game.
They just don't outstrip most others quite so readily anymore, which is a good thing.
I don't consider a +4 strength to be worth as much as you do I guess. Plenty of other ways to get it at that.
It was a huge nerf to the class which already was considered a weaker/middling class with the old wild shape.
"Weaker" class with the old wildhape? Are you familiar with the term CoDzilla? If you're not, I will explain that the C stands for "Cleric", and the O stands for "or". I suppose it was a weaker class compared to, say, Shadowcraft Mages and Celerity-toting casters and stuff.
Druids suffered a lot in the transition. Lots of folk did.
"Weaker" class with the old wildhape? Are you familiar with the term CoDzilla? If you're not, I will explain that the C stands for "Cleric", and the O stands for "or".
Druids suffered a lot in the transition. Lots of folk did.
Not really. . . seems like many other classes had value added in the transition?
Shapeshifting is the kind of thing that deserves its own class, in the way that a wizard can summon but a Summoner is its own class entirely.
Synthesist Summoner is already a good approximation of what such a shapeshifter class could look like.
A lot of classes were strengthened sure. If you call that having value added, great, because I'm not sure what value means in the context of game mechanics and that could be a very long, fruitless conversation.
Fighters got cooler, prestige classes got wrecked, a sizable fraction of the core caster shenanigans got nerfed, the egregious splatbook caster shenanigans got left behind entirely, and the fact that casters, especially arcane casters, still sit where they do is just a testament to how ridiculous they were in the first place.
Druids were good. Wildshape was ridiculously amazing. Now Wildshape is relegated to being Rage's weird hillbilly cousin. I'm curious how exactly you're arriving at the conclusion that Druids were weak to middling. Is it just because they weren't straight Wizards?
A lot of classes were strengthened sure. If you call that having value added, great, because I'm not sure what value means in the context of game mechanics and that could be a very long, fruitless conversation.
Fighters got cooler, prestige classes got wrecked, a sizable fraction of the core caster shenanigans got nerfed, the egregious splatbook caster shenanigans got left behind entirely, and the fact that casters, especially arcane casters, still sit where they do is just a testament to how ridiculous they were in the first place.
Druids were good. Wildshape was ridiculously amazing. Now Wildshape is relegated to being Rage's weird hillbilly cousin. I'm curious how exactly you're arriving at the conclusion that Druids were weak to middling. Is it just because they weren't straight Wizards?
Spell list is a lot weaker in a lot of ways; having heal spells at a spell level higher mattered a lot; many of their spells were dependent on the environment to be effective; their PrCs were typically poor comparatively, and while wild shape was awesome, it still took effort to find really useful forms to shift into.
Wildshape being +4 to strength only is really, really weak. Their spell list didn't get any better, ect.
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Wildshape is good not just from the sheer number bonuses, but from the insane versatility it gives. It lets you gain a fly speed, swim speed, earth glide speed, climb speed, and a bunch of other things for hours at a time. It lets you go undercover perfectly in a bunch of places, by simply becoming a rat and sneaking in. It is right there with Paragon Surge+Eldritch Heritage to spontaneously cast any spell on your list in terms of versatility. Now, it isn't OP, but if you are a melee-focused druid you should probably have a high strength [around 16 at level1], and otherwise you should use it for pure versatility purposes.
Nathanael, I'm going to ask this just for the sake of the discussion's sanity:
What is it that makes you feel that druids are a 'weaker' or 'middling' class back in 3.5?
See above; that's exactly what I just posted.
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Remember that you keep your items while wildshaped.
A druid with 14 strength can have a pretty good STR (bonus from wildshape, bonus from item), while having half a dozen natural attacks with reach and possibly special attacks on each.
For example, a 6th level druid can have 18 STR, have 3 attacks with max BAB, all of them with free grab, and the pounce ability (dire tiger).
And that is added to its fullcaster spells (with a single feat) and have a duration of 6 hours.
Alternatively, he can morph into a Earth elemental a pass through Earth and stone as if it was water.
Or morph into a air elemental and fly very quickly for a very long duration.
Or morph into a dire gorilla and have 3 attacks at max BAB and reach.
Or morph into a rat/bat/cat and be the best sneaky character in the group.
The possibilities are huge.
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I think that for some 3.5 reason bears optosn for Pcs get nerfed in PF, i do not really know, either case if you want to focus in wildshaping and killing things in melee then saurian shaman is probably a stronger option.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.
Lol?
Even assuming a +4 bonus to Str is useless (lemme call up the Barbarian and tell him that right now...), Wild Shape is, barring extreme cheese, the most versatile class ability in the game.
You can get any type of movement speed, defensive ability or special sense in the game, complete ability to be unobtrusive, insane scouting potential, and so on...ALL DAY. It lasts for HOURS.
And that's "not worth using"? Are you on something?
See above; that's exactly what I just posted.
Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF.
I prefer the druid spell list VASTLY over the cleric spell list.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.Lol?
Even assuming a +4 bonus to Str is useless (lemme call up the Barbarian and tell him that right now...), Wild Shape is, barring extreme cheese, the most versatile class ability in the game.
You can get any type of movement speed, defensive ability or special sense in the game, complete ability to be unobtrusive, insane scouting potential, and so on...ALL DAY. It lasts for HOURS.
And that's "not worth using"? Are you on something?
Its not worth using in combat. Sure, those few times when you need to turn into an innocent looking creature it has purpose, but its not something worth building a character concept around.
It has a few stand out-- Flame Strike at 4th instead of 5th, Call Lightning, Baleful Polymorph. . . but getting heal spells a spell level late after cure light, getting True Seeing a level late, Commune With Nature instead of Commune, and no Animate Dead make it overall considerably weaker than Cleric, which makes it the third most powerful list and in 3.5 that put quite a few classes ahead of Druid (Wiz/Sorc, the Bard builds I used, Cleric/Favored Soul, Wu Jen). . .
Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF.I prefer the druid spell list VASTLY over the cleric spell list.
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Okay. Nathanael, what we have here is a very common, though still confusing, inability to understand the source of power in 3.PF.
Lemme help you: versatility is power.
It's true that of the T1 classes, Druid was arguably the weakest, largely due to its inability to expand its spell list. Every supplement came out with more Druid spells, of course, but Wizards and Clerics were so deep in each other's pockets that it was hard to tell the difference between their spell lists sometimes. However, Druid was the hardest to screw up too - it's optimization floor was fairly high, having significant good options in every supplement including the various monster manuals. Druids could do any role you put them to and do it on demand, all the time, with minimal prep time.
As far as healing being delayed, eh. Healing isn't really a party role, and if it was, Summon Nature's Ally gives you nymphs and unicorns to do it for you.
Its not worth using in combat.
How do you come to this conclusion?
You can get large amounts of Natural Attacks with the spells to boost them by up to +5 (Greater Magic Fang), a Str boost (which is quite useful unless you dumped Str), Reach, etc.
All of those are things other classes would kill to get.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.Lol?
Even assuming a +4 bonus to Str is useless (lemme call up the Barbarian and tell him that right now...), Wild Shape is, barring extreme cheese, the most versatile class ability in the game.
You can get any type of movement speed, defensive ability or special sense in the game, complete ability to be unobtrusive, insane scouting potential, and so on...ALL DAY. It lasts for HOURS.
And that's "not worth using"? Are you on something?
Its not worth using in combat. Sure, those few times when you need to turn into an innocent looking creature it has purpose, but its not something worth building a character concept around.
It has a few stand out-- Flame Strike at 4th instead of 5th, Call Lightning, Baleful Polymorph. . . but getting heal spells a spell level late after cure light, getting True Seeing a level late, Commune With Nature instead of Commune, and no Animate Dead make it overall considerably weaker than Cleric, which makes it the third most powerful list and in 3.5 that put quite a few classes ahead of Druid (Wiz/Sorc, the Bard builds I used, Cleric/Favored Soul, Wu Jen). . .
Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF.I prefer the druid spell list VASTLY over the cleric spell list.
For Healing, you have the wand.
Wildshape makes a druid as good as a full BAB character in combat, while still being the most versatile in non combat abilities (spontaneous, very long duration, ...).
Yes, Wildshape didn't lose its strengths. Actually, it improved in every non combat aspects while still being very good in combat.
It has a few stand out-- Flame Strike at 4th instead of 5th, Call Lightning, Baleful Polymorph. . . but getting heal spells a spell level late after cure light, getting True Seeing a level late, Commune With Nature instead of Commune, and no Animate Dead make it overall considerably weaker than Cleric, which makes it the third most powerful list and in 3.5 that put quite a few classes ahead of Druid (Wiz/Sorc, the Bard builds I used, Cleric/Favored Soul, Wu Jen). . .Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF.
I prefer the druid spell list VASTLY over the cleric spell list.
Undead army vs awakened plant and animal army. Pffffff
Commune with nature is free and better in most situations.
Heal being a spell level late is the only real "weakness".
As far as healing being delayed, eh. Healing isn't really a party role, and if it was, Summon Nature's Ally gives you nymphs and unicorns to do it for you.Not anymore. SNA got nerfed really hard. At the same time Summon Monster got a huge buff to the point it is better than 3.5 SNA.
Still a crazy strong ability that synergies WAY too well with animal growth.
It does suffer from beat-stick syndrome. But your a druid that is what you do. You crush your foes with overwhelming force.
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See above; that's exactly what I just posted.Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF
I absolutely love druids and definitely agree with everybody who claims that wild shape is very, very good as it is but I think this is a bit of an exaggeration.
Different classes shine in different ways. There is no one "best" class.
It has a few stand out-- Flame Strike at 4th instead of 5th, Call Lightning, Baleful Polymorph. . . but getting heal spells a spell level late after cure light, getting True Seeing a level late, Commune With Nature instead of Commune, and no Animate Dead make it overall considerably weaker than Cleric, which makes it the third most powerful list and in 3.5 that put quite a few classes ahead of Druid (Wiz/Sorc, the Bard builds I used, Cleric/Favored Soul, Wu Jen). . .Druids are still the best most powerful class from 1-20. That didn't change from 3.5 to PF.
I prefer the druid spell list VASTLY over the cleric spell list.
Undead army vs awakened plant and animal army. Pffffff
Commune with nature is free and better in most situations.
Heal being a spell level late is the only real "weakness".
Awaken can't make an army unless your DM is very permissive, you'd have to convince them to assist you; by comparison, Animate Dead makes creatures completely under your control.
Commune with Nature is limited on what information it can give you compared to Commune.
Also, as mentioned already SM is now much, much better than SNA.
All the Druid Archetypes seem to be traps as well.
Animal Growth got a big nerf too. It only affects one animal now.As far as healing being delayed, eh. Healing isn't really a party role, and if it was, Summon Nature's Ally gives you nymphs and unicorns to do it for you.Not anymore. SNA got nerfed really hard. At the same time Summon Monster got a huge buff to the point it is better than 3.5 SNA.Still a crazy strong ability that synergies WAY too well with animal growth.
It does suffer from beat-stick syndrome. But your a druid that is what you do. You crush your foes with overwhelming force.
0_0
WOW totally missed that.
Oh well that combo was too good in the first place.
Also, as mentioned already SM is now much, much better than SNA.
It's also spont.
Way better than spont cure spells.
Spend a couple feats and you get the best of spontaneous summoning on Wizards or Clerics.Also, as mentioned already SM is now much, much better than SNA.It's also spont.
Way better than spont cure spells.
Yeah, in 3.5 you could get better spontaneous spells either way around.
I agree spont summons> Spon healing, but the only way I ever used it was to summon Unicorns and that's gone now.
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You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.
Wow. I've played a druid through two complete campaigns and it is a great class with tremendous versatility. Even if you are not a melee druid, wildshape is a fantastic tool in terms of both in terms of utility and defense.
You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.Wow. I've played a druid through two complete campaigns and it is a great class with tremendous versatility. Even if you are not a melee druid, wildshape is a fantastic tool in terms of both in terms of utility and defense.
It used to be able to give much much larger boosts to strength, boost dex and con, used to restore hit points when you changed shapes, used to give a LOT more natural armor. . . I just don't value +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor that much (and that's the version when you get size large. . .)
It used to be able to give much much larger boosts to strength, boost dex and con, used to restore hit points when you changed shapes, used to give a LOT more natural armor. . . I just don't value +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor that much (and that's the version when you get size large. . .)You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.Wow. I've played a druid through two complete campaigns and it is a great class with tremendous versatility. Even if you are not a melee druid, wildshape is a fantastic tool in terms of both in terms of utility and defense.
Yup, it used to be way umbalanced. Not sure if it Ok now but it certainly was not Ok back then.
Planar Shepherd says hi. Admittedly, that's the only real standout druid PrC I recall.
Everything Prince of Knives said is correct.
It used to be able to give much much larger boosts to strength, boost dex and con, used to restore hit points when you changed shapes, used to give a LOT more natural armor. . . I just don't value +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor that much (and that's the version when you get size large. . .)
That was the problem. It was too good. Too easy to cherry pick over-powered options and negate any drawbacks of weak physical stats by applying the inflated stats of a large or bigger creature. The nerf was hard and, more importantly, necessary for game balance.
Planar Shepherd says hi. Admittedly, that's the only real standout druid PrC I recall.
Everything Prince of Knives said is correct.
Arcane Hierophant. But that was multi-classed.
Many of the books didn't have great options-- there were a few, but spread out. Snake's Swiftness, Mass was a great 2nd level spell, Draconic Wild shape was a huge up. . .
But I don't really consider "its hard to eff this up" to be a great measure of how powerful something is/was.
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Such a rediculous premise. Did Druids get the nerf... Yes. Wildshape was changed to conform with the new Polymorph rules in PF (It nerfed arcane casters too). They also nerfed several of the buffs and SNA.
So what...
Its still one of the best friggin classes in the game.
9`th level spell casting (Automaticly makes it better then most)
Armored Casting (With Medium Armor Prof)
A Pet that is almost another party member (Like a free Leadership feat)
Medium BAB
D8 HP
And on top of all that...
Wildshape - even nerfed its one of the most versitile abilities in the game. The fact you can gain almost any movement type or vision is insanely good. Add in all the other abilities you can get not to mention the great sneaking and scouting... Its still awsome.
As far as their spell list. Its a great one. They get Offensive spells that a cleric lacks, they have have the heals a wiz/sorc lack, and they still get some great utility and CC spells. If I had to rank spell list I would do so as follows... Wiz/Sorc > Witch > Druid > Cleric > Everything else.
I dont like the Wildshape change. But I certainly understand WHY they made the change. It was insane before. Now its just REALLY good. Add in the Pet, 9th Level spells, armored casting, and D8 HP and you really have no reason to complain. It has no weakness. Its good at everything.
I didn't say that's what made Druid powerful - though it certainly loaned itself to the perception of Druid's power. Druid's versatility gave/gives it power. There's no game situation that a Druid cannot theoretically produce an answer to, and very few that it cannot produce an answer to on demand.
It used to be able to give much much larger boosts to strength, boost dex and con, used to restore hit points when you changed shapes, used to give a LOT more natural armor. . . I just don't value +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor that much (and that's the version when you get size large. . .)You are correct; in the change from 3.5 to PF they nerfed Wild Shape hard and it is not really worth using now.Wow. I've played a druid through two complete campaigns and it is a great class with tremendous versatility. Even if you are not a melee druid, wildshape is a fantastic tool in terms of both in terms of utility and defense.
Only used SNA to summon unicorns and only see wildshape as a +4/+2?
*eye twitch*
I don't have much to say to that.
I didn't say that's what made Druid powerful - though it certainly loaned itself to the perception of Druid's power. Druid's versatility gave/gives it power. There's no game situation that a Druid cannot theoretically produce an answer to, and very few that it's cannot produce an answer to on demand.
Game situation:
Over deity challenges druid to cast spells while wearing metal armor or said Over deity will destroy all things.
I didn't say that's what made Druid powerful - though it certainly loaned itself to the perception of Druid's power. Druid's versatility gave/gives it power. There's no game situation that a Druid cannot theoretically produce an answer to, and very few that it's cannot produce an answer to on demand.Game situation:
Over deity challenges druid to cast spells while wearing metal armor or said Over deity will destroy all things.
Is it sad that my first thought was, "In 3.5 I could pull this off if you gave me 24 hours and access to a couple of psionic items?"
Only used SNA to summon unicorns and only see wildshape as a +4/+2?
*eye twitch*
I don't have much to say to that.
LOL... exactly. Nathanael you realize that alot of the crazy stuff from 3.5 has been taken out on purpose right? CODzilla, Batman, ect. World shattering builds are out there but are not promoted here like say... briliantgamolagist forums do.
Druid in its current form is balanced. And you miss the point of Wildshape and SNA if all you use it for is a stat boost and unicorns.