Polymorph Any Object and creatures


Rules Questions


Polymorph Any Object can be used to change one creature to a different creature. If the target creature has class levels and the "end" creature has racial hit dice, how do they interact? As far as I can tell, the subject would get all the racial hit dice and abilities, with their own class levels and abilities on top of that, potentially making some very powerful combinations.

Also, does the "end" creature keep the default attribute scores for that creature, or are they affected by (or replaced by) the spell's target's ability scores?

Liberty's Edge

Bump. and I need solid answers as I'm currently in Eyes of the Ten in PFS and looking specifically at this spell.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is no change in class levels or racial hit dice.

Polymorph Rules shows exactly what changes. So, +10 Disguise to appear like that creature, bonuses to ability scores and natural armor, movement types and other benefits such as movement, resistances, and senses.

If you were a 10th level wizard polymorphed into a Behir, then you are now a 10th level wizard with Behir abilities as listed but no extra hit dice.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But how does that mesh when you turn a classed character into something not explicitly covered in a published polymorph spell, such as a construct or ooze?

Liberty's Edge

K, but which Bonuses would one get. Assume for instance that a level 15 caster can use this spell to turn into a Large Dragon. As per the spells listed in this spell's description turning into a Large Dragon is not covered. Turning into a medium dragon is covered. (BTW Duration for Large Dragon is 1 week, Medium would be permanent.) Should I modify my stats as Form of the Dragon I, that seems underwhelming, I feel Form of the Dragon II would be appropriate as it is a level lower than the spell and what we are essentially benefiting from by using this level 8 spell would be duration. But Form of the Dragon II is not specifically called out, (Neither is any "Elemental Body, or Beast Shape" spell) yet arguably (I think) one should be able to easily change a rock into an Earth Elemental for a week easily, as Elemental Body X where X is the level that grants Large Elementals.


Altus Lucrim wrote:
K, but which Bonuses would one get. Assume for instance that a level 15 caster can use this spell to turn into a Large Dragon. As per the spells listed in this spell's description turning into a Large Dragon is not covered. Turning into a medium dragon is covered. (BTW Duration for Large Dragon is 1 week, Medium would be permanent.) Should I modify my stats as Form of the Dragon I, that seems underwhelming, I feel Form of the Dragon II would be appropriate as it is a level lower than the spell and what we are essentially benefiting from by using this level 8 spell would be duration. But Form of the Dragon II is not specifically called out, (Neither is any "Elemental Body, or Beast Shape" spell) yet arguably (I think) one should be able to easily change a rock into an Earth Elemental for a week easily, as Elemental Body X where X is the level that grants Large Elementals.

You can't turn into a Large Dragon with Polymorph Any Object.

Polymorph Any Object acts like Greater Polymorph. Greater Polymorph grants you:

Animal or Magical Beast = Beast Shape IV
Elemental = Elemental Body III
Humanoid = Alter Self
Plant = Plant Shape II
Dragon = Form of the Dragon I

Form of the Dragon I only allows medium size.


Altus Lucrim wrote:
K, but which Bonuses would one get. Assume for instance that a level 15 caster can use this spell to turn into a Large Dragon. As per the spells listed in this spell's description turning into a Large Dragon is not covered. Turning into a medium dragon is covered. (BTW Duration for Large Dragon is 1 week, Medium would be permanent.) Should I modify my stats as Form of the Dragon I, that seems underwhelming, I feel Form of the Dragon II would be appropriate as it is a level lower than the spell and what we are essentially benefiting from by using this level 8 spell would be duration. But Form of the Dragon II is not specifically called out, (Neither is any "Elemental Body, or Beast Shape" spell) yet arguably (I think) one should be able to easily change a rock into an Earth Elemental for a week easily, as Elemental Body X where X is the level that grants Large Elementals.

Wait, wait, wait... It says "This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. . . . " and Greater Polymorph calls out the individual spells that it mimics. If you hop between the spells that cite others, then I think it appears that you can only gain the benefits of form of the dragon I even if you do transform into a larger form, which does indeed suck. However, you are using an 8th level spell slot to possibly make a 6th level spell last indefinitely rather than minutes per level... so underwhelming, totally. Useful, probably.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Basically if you want to play a dragon, play a dragon. If you want to play a wizard who can sometimes turn into a somewhat cool dragon, then use polymorph spells. It is still a very useful and fun spell to use.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh reading the spell description certainly allows for a wizard to turn into a large dragon for a week. That's not in question, because I could turn a pebble into a large dragon. The question is what stat changes should be made for it, that is what is not covered. I could turn myself into a rock for a while or a 1500 square foot cube of jello. And extending a 6th level spell permanently is about the same in this case as a level 7 spell for a week.

To reiterate the question is not whether or not I can transform into a large dragon, It's what stat alterations should that add.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I am not sure if you can turn into a Large Dragon.

Polymorph Any Object acts like a Greater Polymorph with certain changes to the duration. Greater Polymorph allows you to use the effects of Form of the Dragon I and Form of the Dragon I allows you to polymorph into a Medium Dragon with a size bonus of +4 to Strength and +2 to Constitution. You would also get +4 Natural Armor, Fly speed, and a Breath Weapon.

Is there something I am missing or where you referring to a different spell than the original post?

The Exchange

My sorcerer plans on taking this so that he can permanently change into a sprite. Since fey aren't specifically called out by greater polymorph etc., I'm assuming that my sorcerer won't get any bonuses to his stats. Since large dragon isn't specifically called out either, I would assume that RAW, you wouldn't get any stat bonuses. If you were a medium dragon, you'd get the stat bonuses specifically called out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Many might argue that you can't turn into a fey creature at all with this spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I wish they had not used the phrase "this spell functions like Greater Polymorph," because that is what leads everyone down the path of what you can and cannot polymorph into using this spell. Even though it continues with an exception saying "except that it changes one object or creature into another" so that exception seems to expand it a little more than the referenced spell. The very next line says "You can use this spell to transform ALL manner of objects and creatures into new forms—you AREN'T limited to transforming a living creature into another living form."

If I were going to DM such a situation I might allow for a broader usage of the spell/ However, when you do that, you open it up to more questions and a slippery slope. This is why both WotC and Paizo tried to limit and control what you can and cannot do with polymorph spells. Paizo just took it to a new level of limitations with Pathfinder. Otherwise, you get all kinds of silliness that came about by abuse of the polymorph spells in the past.

So, you can read it with the strictest interpretation and just follow the polymorph spell family tree as outlined in Greater Polymorph or you can take a more liberal reading and allow for more forms. The problem with the latter is that Form of the Dragon III is also an 8th level spell, like Polymorph Any Object, except that Polymorph Any Other has a substantially (at least potentially) longer duration.

This is a spell that could use a little enlightenment on it. Otherwise, I would probably end up ruling it by the more strict interpretation.

Liberty's Edge

Hendelbolaf wrote:


So, you can read it with the strictest interpretation and just follow the polymorph spell family tree as outlined in Greater Polymorph or you can take a more liberal reading and allow for more forms. The problem with the latter is that Form of the Dragon III is also an 8th level spell, like Polymorph Any Object, except that Polymorph Any Other has a substantially (at least potentially) longer duration.

This is a spell that could use a little enlightenment on it. Otherwise, I would probably end up ruling it by the more strict interpretation.

In your second example though you still couldn't turn into a Huge Dragon because they take up so much more space (15x15x15=3,375, so you could do this as a level 34 Caster or with a GM who was flexible and says that though you occupy that room your body does not fill it at a caster level of 30-32ish.) This is really outside the realm of Pathfinder's levels to create something that big with the spell. However Large (10x10x10=1,000 square feet) fits comfortably within the confines of the rules.


As a DM I would not allow forms that are animate to be created with this spell if it could not be done with a 6th level or lower transmutation spell. I would allow undead anatomy 3, monstrous physique 4 and geniekind to be duplicated. Anything created by a level 7 plus spell is right out. Things like oozes and fea might enter home rule territory and constructs also seam to be no go.

I might go as far as allowing any transmutation spell that targets creature or object and letting it mimic that. It would have to be a the type of spell that actually changes the form of something. Stone shape is an easy yes. For buffs I might let this spell be a way to cast them with a longer duration and on others. Maybe a time factor equal to 7-spell level. - if duration is in rounds. +1 if duration is 10 min level, +2 for hours/level and +3 if a longer duration. Expeditions retreat for 12 hours on some one else might be worth it. So might long shot. You could get darkvision for a week and ant haul forever with this but is that so bad. Fly spell lasts for an hour and water breath goes for a week. Would a 7th level slot be worth for haste on 1 target for 1 hour? For higher level buffs it like echolocation it will actually be a shorter duration but you can get it on to others so there is some good even there.

I do not think it would ever be worth to cast a debuff with a long duration since those usually only to need to last rounds anyway.

If I turn a goblin into a rock can it take a full round action to change back? If that is the case then any debuff could be dealt with simply by spending a full round action.


Mathius wrote:


Very good stuff.

I am also having to deal and make ruling on polymorph any object for my game (shattered star) because my party just encountered Gongorinan qlippoths.

I think that Mathius' line of thinking is the one that makes most sense to me. So that means any spell (up to 6th level) that turns you to a specific type of creature (form of the dragon, undead anatomy, beast shape etc.) is fair game. I know that this leaves out the giant form spells but since those spells are in the core book and polymorph any object doesn't mention giant form, i think that the up to 6th level spell is the clue.

Now i was thinking about allowing any transmutation (polymorph) spell (up to 6th level) to be replicated with PAO but then i noticed that PAO and to an extent greater polymorph doesn't mention enlarge person and reduce person (both spells in the core book), so i don't know what do with that.


Also some things to bear in mind:

1) Limited wish is a seventh level spell. It allows all sixth level or lower spells (of an arcane sort; all fifth level and lower of a divine sort). It also has a cost. Polymorph Any Object does not.

2) Wish is a ninth-level spell with a cost that allows you to imitate all eighth level spells and lower (of an arcane sort; all seventh level spells of a divine sort). It also has a cost.

To me, the broad power of those two effects, combined with the nature of PaO, seems to make liberal interpretations worth-while - in other words, Transmutation seems to be a "go" for me. But if you're interested in house-ruling it, it could make sense to put a minor cost for certain "powerful" effects: 1,500* gold-worth of something (maybe diamond dust?) should actually be a very good cost for the more expensive requirements.

Though personally, I don't charge for PaO, and I generally allow it to get away with things it normally probably wouldn't**. But that's just because I'm a huge fan in general. :)

* The idea is:
a) 1,500 limited wish plus 25,000 wish}/2 to get a rough 8th level "value"
b) divide by 9 schools as you're only using the one (Transmutation) {1,472.222... -> 1,500 gold}
c) divide by 2 if you limit it to the Polymorph sub-school only {736.111... -> 750 gold}

** And even sometimes house-rule a duration factor of 11+ as "instantaneous", though more often recently I've relegated that to the ninth level Greater Polymorph Any Object home-brewed spell.

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