You guys are missing the point. Sure you can meta magic the hell out of spells if you have enough feats. BUT those 1st level slots are still sitting unused. Lets face it Points are a superior system to Slots. If a Psion wants to burn brightly he can while a mage gets his one highest level spell... then his power drops to a level lower... then lower... then lower till it becomes pointless to cast and you have to pull out the crossbow. The Psion is firing off multiple high level effects. Sure after the Psion runs out he has to switch to a weapon too. But would you rather stay at high level power the whole time or cast at a continuously diminished rate like a slotted caster? Lets face it they are both going dry quickly. Oh the caster has spells left but because a stack of first or second level spells is just lame they may as well not.
If points were not a superior system face it you guys wouldn't be fighting SO hard for it.
Plus the Psion effectively gets Empower and Intensify feats for free; ditto energy substitution; ditto the chains of feats to be able to cast in armor (he just has to take proficiency, or dip 1 level in Psychic Warrior like 90% of all psions do)--
Look; Psion is on the same power level as Wizard without needing a spellbook, has more powers known than a equivalent level Sorc; gets a ton of feats effectively for free, and any perceived disadvantages of the way his spells are cast come with equivalent advantages.
That's comparing Psion to Wizard; if you are in the camp that argues Wizard is OP then Psionics is beyond the pale for you. . .
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Umm.. those of us with high levels of system mastery think the exact opposite, because surprise! Magic is stronger then Psionics. Thus most of us who think Wizards are OP like Psions because while they are stronger then Martials, they are way more balanced then Wizards. And psionics does not get free Empower... not sure we're sure getting that. And "free intensify" is less free intensify and more how the system is built. If you want to say free intensify Wizards get effectively 100's of free PP. Which is a silly comparison.
If points were not a superior system face it you guys wouldn't be fighting SO hard for it.
That's an interesting statement. Consider why some folks have stated it to be superior. Why wouldn't they fight for it? Psionics is far more balanced than Vancian casting probably ever was.
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Okay I'm back from the Pathfinder OGC.
From what I can tell, Psionics aren't very broken. I have some suspicions on some of the Psion's dicipline powers, particularly being able to teleport by maintaining focus but I don't know how often you wind up losing focus in game so that might not be much better than the travel domain but still seems good to have infinite minor teleporting at level 2.
But the powers aren't more broken than the stuff full casters normally do. Seems like more direct powers rather than general reality breaking shenanigans spells normally do. The worst case scenario is that the game falls apart after 12th level (as usual)
Some 6-9 level powers look really scary though, and the fact that they can nova points into increasing the DC makes it more scary. Basically a high level Psion could probably kill anything he wants (and die to it's friends) very easily even if it has very high saves. For example, one spell when it hits deals 22d6 damage assuming a failed save and for every 2 extra points spent on it the DC increases by 1, this also increases the damage by 4d6.
So bottom line a Psion can spend about 1/4 of his resources to guarantee to kill you, and a Wizard can spend 1/18 of his resources to probably kill you. I have no real way to compare these because really if you're in front of a full attack from a fighter he has about the same effect and that resource is infinite, however most people consider Fighter at the low end of the totem pole.
Well I don't DM games past 12 level so this doesn't effect me, (except when I play in which I will gladly accept manifesting a death beam.) so I decided to buy Ultimate Psionics.
Hmmm... more balanced? With what? Not with martials (they are just as overkill as mages are in that case). Maybe he means vs wizards? But that isn't the case either as I already discussed. Obviously balanced isn't the correct word. Versatile is the word you should have used. Points are inherently more versatile than slots. More versatile IS better than less versatile... enough so that I stand by my comment that you shouldn't use the two systems side by side.
Oh, note on my previous post. due to the point spending the power I was talking about doesn't become scary until way later levels, aside from the whole 'take about 70 damage' part which the wizard can actually do as well at that point. so at 12 level a Psion and Wizard have about equal ability to outright kill you.
I will refer readers to this thread: Psionics is Overpowered
Or just download the PDF for perusal when you feel like it: Download PDF
If you feel like it, I can always copy-paste the material into this thread. :) (Yeah, we have had these discussions once or twice in the past...)
Best regards
Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press
That thread isn't relevant to this one very much. I know I am not arguing any of the points that article lists, nor am I saying it is overpowered, just that it's better.
We used psionics more in 1st and 2nd edition than we did in 3.0 and 3.5. 2nd edition psionicists were kind of fun, particularly after The Will & the Way introduced some flexibility.
None of us had a thematic problem with it in 3.X, since, really, the psionic system was a *far* more appropriate system to model the sorts of 'magic' one sees in the greater majority of fantasy novels, shows, movies, etc. than the Vancian 'mnemonic' system and obviously science fiction-y spells like clone and time stop (and old-school stuff like distance distortion and duo-dimension and black holes of annihilation and 33,000 cubic foot expanding fireballs, which kind of made it so that anyone who hated sci-fi in their fantasy obviously was never gonna play D&D anyway), it was just that nobody really wanted to play one, so we never got around to learning the rules.
(Same with , truenamers, the OA classes, etc. Nobody cared to play one, so we never learned the rules. There was no actual dislike of those systems or their flavor.)
Bite your tongue!
Plus, as an aside: from personal experience, manifesters need to conserve resources much more carefully than casters. All those PP run out waaay too fast if you pull out the big guns too often.
Because they are capable of packaging all their "small spells" up into more costly large spells . . . they run low on points faster because they get to use points to do the more powerful thing more often?
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You guys are missing the point. Sure you can meta magic the hell out of spells if you have enough feats. BUT those 1st level slots are still sitting unused. Lets face it Points are a superior system to Slots.
That's why you get less of them. I ran a comparison once, translating spells/day into the equivelant points, and the wizard and especially the sorcerer come out ahead.
As for those first level slots, sure you aren't using them for burning hands - because blasting with them is a poor choice for spells at any level. But grease? That's ALWAYS useful at any level. So is mage armor, and shield, and protection from evil and many other spells.
If a Psion wants to burn brightly he can while a mage gets his one highest level spell... then his power drops to a level lower... then lower... then lower till it becomes pointless to cast and you have to pull out the crossbow.
Actually I have seen wizards nova very effectively as well. He may have only one or two of his highest level spells, but he has many more of his next-to-highest level and they are often just as relevant.
The Psion is firing off multiple high level effects.
Or more often, low level powers augmented to the max, because they do not scale automatically. A tenth level wizard only burns a third level slot to cast fireball, while to zap with energy ball a kineticist has to take up a fourth level slot and consume power to the equivelant of a fifth level spell.
Sure after the Psion runs out he has to switch to a weapon too. But would you rather stay at high level power the whole time or cast at a continuously diminished rate like a slotted caster? Lets face it they are both going dry quickly. Oh the caster has spells left but because a stack of first or second level spells is just lame they may as well not.
As I mentioned above, you can go a long way with 1st level spells - if you pick the right spells and use them properly. Your wizard is also getting the same effect out of lower levels spells in many cases as the psion out of greater power expenditure. I find that it evens out very well.
If points were not a superior system face it you guys wouldn't be fighting SO hard for it.
It's a better system yes, but better is not the same as more powerful.
It's a case of swings and roundabouts: spell slots are not an efficient resource management system, but you get more resources. Power points are an efficient management system, but you get less resources. All this also ignores the wizards ability to pre-select spells for what he expects to encounter. He has greater flexibility of spells while the psion has powers known in the same way as a sorcerer. His powers may be more flexible, but he gets less of them, and again it evens out.
The full working is here if you want to check it out.
I think psionics is a better system because it is less powerful, thank you very much.
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Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant.
Not looking to argue, just discuss. I've found over the years that... it depends. In the case of damage-dealing spells this is pretty true. You don't see magic missile used in high-level play for instance. Well, except the 18th-level wizard in my Tsar campaign, but hey.
That said, a lot of other spells do remain VERY important. You'll see dispel magic used at all levels from the moment it becomes available. And fly and haste or slow or things like protection from evil.
I won't pretend that most spells scale well, but that's part of why psionic classes have limited powers-known lists. Even psions. There is no know-it-all class like a wizard. So don't discard low-level slots entirely. Prepared appropriately they can absolutely be game-changers.
Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant.Not looking to argue, just discuss. I've found over the years that... it depends. In the case of damage-dealing spells this is pretty true. You don't see magic missile used in high-level play for instance. Well, except the 18th-level wizard in my Tsar campaign, but hey.
That said, a lot of other spells do remain VERY important. You'll see dispel magic used at all levels from the moment it becomes available. And fly and haste or slow or things like protection from evil.
I won't pretend that most spells scale well, but that's part of why psionic classes have limited powers-known lists. Even psions. There is no know-it-all class like a wizard. So don't discard low-level slots entirely. Prepared appropriately they can absolutely be game-changers.
Not only that, but arcane blast still exists. Worst case scenario is that you just use your lower slots for blasting mooks so you can save your big spells for big bads.
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I have been hesitant to go for psionics. Mostly for the opposite of above. I feel reluctant to get a product with 10 new classes to represent what I feel is just another form of magic. No one has really told me anything that spells out to me that psionics is not just rules for mana pool wizards. I don't mind mana pool wizards but I already have third party materials that have mana pools instead of spell slots for wizard/sorcerer.
So Ultimate Psionics is on my wishlist but I'm a little afraid to push the buy button.
This is an interesting point. Hopefully I can help at least a little.
First up, think of it as four classes, not ten. The other six are APG-style classes... they offer more tweaks on the basic theme, but the first four are the heart of the system.
Let me summarize:
psion This is the "full-caster" psionic equivalent of a cleric or a wizard. Yes, the magic "works different" in terms of using a sort of mana pool, but there's also the overall package difference. The psionic power list is different from both wizards and clerics. Yes, there's damage-dealing powers, but then there's more specialties available. There's a whole discipline full of telekinesis powers, or charm powers or locomotion powers, and so on. So the magic itself is at least somewhat different.
soulknife This is not a caster at all. No powers, no power points. This class gets a mental light-saber though. So it's a martial only it manifests and adjusts its weapon using mental will-power. Like having a choice between ranger and fighter is a Good Thing, having a choice of a soulknife is too because it's... interesting.
psychic warrior This is sort of a psychic combat-druid thing. They are half-casters but their power list is mostly about self-buffing, self-healing, and melee damage powers. Want to make a guy who just grows a set of claws, hardened skin, suddenly runs fast, stabs at a foe then heals a bit of his own damage? Psywar. No arcane/divine caster comes close to this package in mechanics or style.
wilder This is sort of the sorcerer of the group. More focused than a psion, they share power lists but the big change is that a wilder can "blow their own mind" to do things more powerfully than usual. That stands a good chance of hurting the wilder, so it's an interesting gamble. This is sort of the training-wheels version of the psion in the same sense the sorcerer is to the wizard.
So, really, the classes are unique either because of power lists having things that just don't exist in arcane/divine form or because the package is completely different.
The other six are much like APG's inquisitor or alchemist or summoner for instance. The basics (manifesting powers) remains in place but these are more advanced. The vitalist gets a sort of mental telepathy "network" that allows communication and - really cool - healing distribution. With a spiritual link between party members, if one PC gets healing, any or all of that healing can just GO somewhere else. So a cleric in the party can cure moderate wounds himself and the barbarian party member can be given some or all of that healing. It's just... totally unique, like an inquisitor's judgement or a summoner's eidolon. Each of these advanced classes have more fiddly bits than the core four but are awesome in their own right. At their heart they all have powers to manifest, but those powers remain stylistically different.
Final word on that "different". Yes, there are powers that are equivalent to fireball in the same sense that lightning bolt. Area-effect energy damage. Those are staple powers that you kind of need in a system for it to work. But there are a lot of powers that either don't exist at all in arcane/divine form or act very differently in psionic form. Not in terms of interaction... the rules are very consistent, but in terms of what they DO.
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I will say, Psionics can Quicken things a lot sooner than Vanican magic can. And it's not even a matter of just quickening, things, the manner of which can be used for all kinds of shenanigans.
Never losing psionic focus by taking Psionic Meditation and manifesting Hustle to get an extra move action every turn is pretty boss. Manifesting Hustle and then manifesting a Hustled Power is also doable way before you get access to Quicken Power.
This doesn't make psionics overpowered per se, but it does show that they do get a lot more miles out of what seem to be fewer options.
Remember those power lists are pretty short when compared to the ever expanding sorcerer/wizard lists.
Dot.
It's a better system yes, but better is not the same as more powerful.
It's a case of swings and roundabouts: spell slots are not an efficient resource management system, but you get more resources. Power points are an efficient management system, but you get less resources. All this also ignores the wizards ability to pre-select spells for what he expects to encounter. He has greater flexibility of spells while the psion has powers known in the same way as a sorcerer. His powers may be more flexible, but he gets less of them, and again it evens out.
The full working is here if you want to check it out.
I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture.
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It's a better system yes, but better is not the same as more powerful.
It's a case of swings and roundabouts: spell slots are not an efficient resource management system, but you get more resources. Power points are an efficient management system, but you get less resources. All this also ignores the wizards ability to pre-select spells for what he expects to encounter. He has greater flexibility of spells while the psion has powers known in the same way as a sorcerer. His powers may be more flexible, but he gets less of them, and again it evens out.
The full working is here if you want to check it out.
I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture.
Yeah, sorry, just because a spell is low-level, doesn't mean it isn't useful. Some very common buff spells are low level and still effective regardless of the enemies you face.
Just because you aren't intelligent or creative enough to use them, doesn't mean others aren't.
It's a better system yes, but better is not the same as more powerful.
It's a case of swings and roundabouts: spell slots are not an efficient resource management system, but you get more resources. Power points are an efficient management system, but you get less resources. All this also ignores the wizards ability to pre-select spells for what he expects to encounter. He has greater flexibility of spells while the psion has powers known in the same way as a sorcerer. His powers may be more flexible, but he gets less of them, and again it evens out.
The full working is here if you want to check it out.
I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture.
Yeah, sorry, just because a spell is low-level, doesn't mean it isn't useful. Some very common buff spells are low level and still effective regardless of the enemies you face.
Just because you aren't intelligent or creative enough to use them, doesn't mean others aren't.
You do realize you just lost the argument. When someone resorts to insults rather than examples they have obviously got no real arguments left.
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For what it's worth, I agree with the core of his statement - those low-level spell slots are a lot more useful than you'd think. Granted, Pathfinder nerfed a lot of the truly nasty offensive options (Grease, Glitterdust, etc) but spells like Invisibility, Owl's Wisdom, Mage Armor, Haste, Mirror Image, Blur, Blink, Slow, and the like never stop being useful. The blasting certainly tapers off, but...blasting has never been a mage's source of power.
"I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture."
I have to disagree with you Aranna, especially on the last part.
First, the idea of "obsolete spells" doesn't really gel with me too much. First of all, which spell levels are "obsolete" exactly, for a, say, lvl 15 wizard - level 1 only, 1 to 3, 1 to 5? There are a lot of useful effects found in the low levels, imo. Yes, a high level character could do those things better if s/he dedicates valuable resources (higher level spells), but that means they won't have those resources elsewhere. Enlarge person, alignment protections and minor effects (unseen servants, minor images) can come in handy later on, especially if the PC wants to cover off situations or conserve their abilities. That all spell levels are not created equal does not mean some are of no use at all. Sure, they will be niche, but this is only proper when you have 5-6 tiers of higher spells.
I have yet to have seen a game where any spell tier was useless. Overshadowed, yes. Useless, no. Sure, that fireball won't help much with the greater daemon. The circle of summoners in the previous room might feel it, though (I am more partial to effects like sleet storm or wind wall, but let's say you play an evoker with no other tricks up his sleeve). Oh, and they may very well feel the dispel messing up their protections or key spell casting - r what happens when your hasted barbarian, the inquisitor and the animal companion get to them. As for the daemon, well, it probably won't enjoy the fact that a 1st level spell can foil its possession/charm abilities - or if it is summoned, that it might not be able to touch you at all - or that a communal resist energy all but negates its fire aura for the entire party. Some creatures at higher levels can ignore the effects of a certain spells. Sure, but chances are there will be more than one encounter per day, and the party will probably have an idea what it is facing. One of the biggest usefulness of low-level slots for a high-level wizard is that they can allow you to cover gaps at low cost so you can focus on what you do best. Sure, enlarge person is far from the best buff out there, but there are very few times it won't help at all.
Also, level 20 is a poor point of comparison because it is almost never played. Heck, I have heard of very few games of level 15 and above. As far as my personal experience with PF goes, Level 20 is one of 20 possible power tiers, and affects probably 0.1% of the games. I do not find it a good point of comparison for judging the system overall, and low-level spell slots are probably not going to be in the top 10 concerns of even the wizard player.
One last thing - even if for some reason level 1 and 2 are rendered completely useless in your campaign, a specialist wizard will still have comparable number of point equivalents to a psion, without counting the scaling issues.
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It's a better system yes, but better is not the same as more powerful.
It's a case of swings and roundabouts: spell slots are not an efficient resource management system, but you get more resources. Power points are an efficient management system, but you get less resources. All this also ignores the wizards ability to pre-select spells for what he expects to encounter. He has greater flexibility of spells while the psion has powers known in the same way as a sorcerer. His powers may be more flexible, but he gets less of them, and again it evens out.
The full working is here if you want to check it out.
I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture.
You assume that all low level slots are obsolete after higher level ones become available. This is a flawed assumption; low level slots ARE always useful. I've already given examples, here are some more:
Alarm - being able to rest safely is a huge advantage in any circumstances, and at high level you have enemies that can teleport into the middle of your camp, or creep in invisibly.
Endure Elements - who needs winter clothing? Your hot elf wizardess can walk around in her traditional medieval cloak-and-bikini ensemble all day, any weather.
Protection from Evil - extra save against mind effects, and those nasties your enemy just summoned cannot touch you.
Shield - +4 AC you cannot get any other way, and blocks magic missiles.
Grease - the battlefield control may not work so well, but the bonus to get you out of being grappled, usually a shut-down for casters, is not to be sneezed at.
Mage Armor - it'll last all day, if you cannot be bothered with bracers of armor.
Obscuring Mist - still blocks vision of all kinds. Handy for a getaway.
Summon Monster I - also known as "find traps (unethical version)".
Unseen Servant - because it's cool.
Comprehend Languages - because ancient scrolls are seldom in modern languages.
True Strike - because sometimes you absolutely cannot afford to miss. Remember, it works on rays as well as weapons.
Charm Person - because diplomacy with mooks is not your forte.
Magic Missile - because it damages just about everything and does not ever miss.
Disguise Self - because you sometimes want to go incognito.
Silent Image - Perfect spell for hiding things. Cave mouth? What cave mouth? There's just a cliff here...
Ray of Enfeeblement - a debuff is a debuff.
Enlarge Person - a buff is a buff.
Erase - I have never seen this used except at high levels.
Feather Fall - because fly spells are too slow to cast when falling.
In fact almost the only spells that are NOT useful at high level are the damaging ones, and if you are only casting damaging spells you have a lot to learn about playing casters. So no, I will not remove the low level spells from the calculations, and no, they are not flawed.
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You do realize you just lost the argument. When someone resorts to insults rather than examples they have obviously got no real arguments left.
While I agree 100% with the idea that Tels wasn't being very nice, I'd think that once you're down to only replying to the ad-hominem attack parts of a post, that's when you've lost the argument.
I'm currently playing a level 10 Magus. I just took out 6 guys with one lvl 1 spell. I always blur and mirror Image for big fights. Shield if I have time. I like to save up for big things so I rarely use my 4th level slots.
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Sure you can meta magic the hell out of spells if you have enough feats. BUT those 1st level slots are still sitting unused.
Right because spells like charm person, cure light wounds, prot evil, and true strike never get used at high levels.
Oh wait...they totally do. Just because a spell is not the big gun for your level does not means that it is useless. Also, all those other non-combat utility spells are part of what make magic-users awesome.
Plus, low level spells scale for free for magic-users while psionicists always need to pay for exactly what they get. Have you seen what a Heavens Oracle can do with Color Spray? Or what a Magus can do with Shocking Grasp (Magical Lineage+Intensify)? Both of those are used with amazing effectiveness even at higher levels for a level one slot. Show me a usage of a Psionics power that can come close to that for one PP, and we can talk about Psionics being overpowered again.
Edit: In a game I am playing, the group was fighting a critter whose extreme beauty forced a save or die each round for anyone beholding her. My 12th level/ 2nd Mythic Tier druid dropped an Obscuring Mist and totally shut that down. First level spells useless at higher levels? Ha!
I checked it out and found your work flawed. You are relying on low level obsolete spells to "even" the playing field with psionics improved access to higher level effects. Because lets face it if a 20th level character gets into a fight those low level spells are useless. Why? Because any static bonus like mage armor or protection spells have long since been superseded by magic items and they no longer have the power to even hurt the level of foe they are likely fighting. Tossing a 3rd level fireball at that greater demon is likely going to get laughed at due to the weaker save a 3rd level spell has and the expected level of spell and energy resistance the monsters will have.
You really should delete all the obsolete slots converted points and powers known from your lists to see the real picture.
Going back to the Sorcerer vs Psion comparison: the Sorcerer probably has Haste. Is Haste *ever* a bad spell? Is Alter Self/Glitterdust/Resist Energy? Is Protection from [Things]/Vanish/Enlarge Person?
I will say, Psionics can Quicken things a lot sooner than Vanican magic can. And it's not even a matter of just quickening, things, the manner of which can be used for all kinds of shenanigans.
Never losing psionic focus by taking Psionic Meditation and manifesting Hustle to get an extra move action every turn is pretty boss. Manifesting Hustle and then manifesting a Hustled Power is also doable way before you get access to Quicken Power.
This doesn't make psionics overpowered per se, but it does show that they do get a lot more miles out of what seem to be fewer options.
Remember those power lists are pretty short when compared to the ever expanding sorcerer/wizard lists.
Yeah, manifesters can go Nova like it's nobody's business. Takes a huge toll on your available PPs, but the option is there.
Plus, Hustle is a 3rd level power for Egoists, so 4th for everyone else (thanks to Expanded Knowledge), which means that little trick is costing you 7...
It's less efficient, but still available sooner, especially with Overchannel. It's also something that I'm pretty sure would never work in the Vanican system.
Hmm, here's a question. For those that say that say psionic classes are more powerful then their existing magical equivalents, what tricks and stuff do the psionic classes have that match up to the various heavy hitters first party magic classes bring to the table. What is the psionic blood money, simulacrum, dazing spell, planar binding, etc. The psionic classes must have options at or above that level of power to really be considered more powerful and being forewarned would be useful should I ever have a player that wishes to use psionics.
It's called Ego Whip.
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It's called Ego Whip.
Wait. You blow a 17-point ego whip, its save is equivalent to a 9th-level spell, and you do 5d4 (average 12.5) Charisma damage, save for half? Oh, okay, and they're dazed if it works, for one round.
This is me, pointing at the 9th-level spell. Seriously.
Now, admittedly the dazed rider is potent even at low-levels, but the damage really isn't.
Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
The only problem I have with Psionics is that if you're running a campaign that also has magic, you have to explain what the difference is between them and how they interact.
Sort of like if the Force existed in the Harry Potter books. It gets...complicated.
So explain how House Elf magic differs from Wizard magic? And go!
Wait? So there are two types of magic already?
Yep.
Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
Yeah, I'm sure a 17th level Bard/Sorcerer have better options.
Even a 12th level Psion with Ego Whip deals 3d4 Cha damage (7.5 Cha), or 1/2 (3 cha). So yeah, not that good for amount of a 6th level spell/power
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Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
I'll say it again. 9th level. Why don't we point out that since feeblemind exists, clearly psionics is overpowered. Oh. Wait. Because that's Core, and a save-or-die that obliterates all of the same classes. Right.
See how this works? Both systems (Core and psionic) have save-or-die. This is not news.
Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
I'll say it again. 9th level. Why don't we point out that since feeblemind exists, clearly psionics is overpowered. Oh. Wait. Because that's Core, and a save-or-die that obliterates all of the same classes. Right.
See how this works? Both systems (Core and psionic) have save-or-die. This is not news.
Save or die is one thing. Save AND STILL die is another. Make your save against Feeblemind? Nothing happens. Make your save against ego whip? Still screwed.
Save or die is one thing. Save AND STILL die is another. Make your save against Feeblemind? Nothing happens. Make your save against ego whip? Still screwed.Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
I'll say it again. 9th level. Why don't we point out that since feeblemind exists, clearly psionics is overpowered. Oh. Wait. Because that's Core, and a save-or-die that obliterates all of the same classes. Right.
See how this works? Both systems (Core and psionic) have save-or-die. This is not news.
Did you miss the bit where it was 12, before saving for half? If they make the save, then the spell is wasted. You would not follow up with another Ego whip, because then you would have wasted two 9th level equivalent powers, just to drop one guy. (Also Anguish was a little bit wrong. It's not 17 PP, it's 19. Only a Psion of 19 or 20th level could do this (barring overchannel), who would undoubtedly have better things to do with their time. I agree that it has it's uses, but it's not this Armageddon power you're making it out to be. Using it "over and over" do not reflect the power of the spell, when spamming equivalent 9th level powers will certainly drop things eventually.
Save or die is one thing. Save AND STILL die is another. Make your save against Feeblemind? Nothing happens. Make your save against ego whip? Still screwed.Except 12 wins? Just use it over and over and except against Sorcerers and Bards once you get to 12, their toast/comatose?
If that, I'm sure many "optimized" build of both wizards and fighters are done once you get to 8?
I'll say it again. 9th level. Why don't we point out that since feeblemind exists, clearly psionics is overpowered. Oh. Wait. Because that's Core, and a save-or-die that obliterates all of the same classes. Right.
See how this works? Both systems (Core and psionic) have save-or-die. This is not news.
Ray of Enfeeblement screws most casters, especially those guys who dumped strength. Drop them to 1 point of strength and watch as they can't even move.
There are spells like Enervation that are just as bad or worse. Enervation doesn't give a save and screws everyone over. Look at something like a 7th level party up against a 9th level caster. He can use Greater Invisibility, a Wand of Enervation, and Fly and there is very little the party can really do against him except hide in things like Obscuring Mist or hope to get lucky with a Glitterdust or pray See Invisibility/Invisibility Purge is prepared.
(Also Anguish was a little bit wrong. It's not 17 PP, it's 19.
Sorry, I missed that ego whip is a 2nd-level power at its base, so I failed to add two more power points.
Save or die is one thing. Save AND STILL die is another. Make your save against Feeblemind? Nothing happens. Make your save against ego whip? Still screwed.
Huh? You make your save against a fully augmented ego whip and you take an average of 6 points of Charisma damage. You'd think save-for-half would be pretty reasonable for something four levels higher than feeblemind, which I'd point out drops both Int and Charisma.
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You do realize you just lost the argument. When someone resorts to insults rather than examples they have obviously got no real arguments left.
Usually when one declares themselves to be the "winner" of an internet debate without refuting the opponent's point due to coarse language(We're on the internet remember?), it generally means that you in fact have no real arguments left. All your points have been refuted. It's okay to be wrong. You don't get a trophy either way. Low levels spells still see incredible use. I'll post a few I like here.
Protection from Blank(Immunity to Mind Control at all levels? Yes please!)
Remove Fear
Ant Haul
Divine Favor
Grace(Used it since level 3 on my 12th level Cleric)
Lesser Restoration
Silence
Invisibility Purge
All the condition removal spells
Deathward
Freedom of Movement
In other news, my players seem excited to try out Psionics.
Save or die is one thing. Save AND STILL die is another. Make your save against Feeblemind? Nothing happens. Make your save against ego whip? Still screwed.Huh? You make your save against a fully augmented ego whip and you take an average of 6 points of Charisma damage. You'd think save-for-half would be pretty reasonable for something four levels higher than feeblemind, which I'd point out drops both Int and Charisma.
For 19 power points it 4d4 maximized, which means 8 Charisma damage on a successful save. Save and still die. . .
Your comparison of claiming this to be a 9th level spell is fallacious-- the system isn't built around the point cost for a power of a particular level being what it truely costs.
A 20th level Psion has 343 Power points, but 70 if he has a 20 Ability score (probably a little low for 20th level)-- divide that by 17 (the cost of a 9th level power) and you get 24 and some change.
A 20th level Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day if every time they expend 17 or more power points its a 9th level spell.
By comparison a Wizard can cast 4+ 1 for specialization +1 for his item and if he has a 28 Int +1 for bonus int, to at most 7.
That's less than 1/3rd as many "max level abilities". If we give that same Psion a 28 Int (since the wizard got his ninth level bonus) his PP total goes up to 343+90-- bringing him to over 25 9th level powers per day.
So maybe the tricked out Ego whip is a "higher level" use, but its ok because Psion can use those far more often than wizards/clerics/druids/sorcerers can.
And lets keep in mind-- I don't play Psion and don't often have them in my games. I am not good at optimizing Psion, I am sure someone who is can find more ridiculous things to do with it.
And yet Ego Whip is one of the few abilities that does *seem* a bit powerful for psionics. Off the top of my head I can think of 5 overpowered spells in arcane magic. Maybe Psionics isn't perfect, but it does seem heck of a lot more balanced than vancian magic.
Suffocation(Staggered Persistent Suffocations are ridiculously powerful and its a save and still lose most of your turn)
Icy Prison(Save and lose)
Simulacrum
Blood Money
Planar Binding
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For 19 power points it 4d4 maximized, which means 8 Charisma damage on a successful save. Save and still die. . .
For 19 power points you are taking the base 3 and add 16, which is four sets of 4, which means you add 4d4 to the base 1d4. End result is 5d4. Average on a d4 is 2.5 Multiple that by 5 and you've got 12.5. Half of 12.5 is 6.25. Round down because that's what you do in this game. End result... 6.
Your comparison of claiming this to be a 9th level spell is fallacious-- the system isn't built around the point cost for a power of a particular level being what it truely costs.
By fallacious you perhaps been "highly accurate"? It costs 19 points, which (aside from a wilder surging and a couple other edge conditions that all have their own drawbacks) means it is available to 19th-level manifesters. Those manifesters have to blow more of their daily manifesting pool than is required to manifest a 9th-level power.
The system is very much designed around your augmentation keeping pace with spell/power levels.
A 20th level Psion has 343 Power points, but 70 if he has a 20 Ability score (probably a little low for 20th level)-- divide that by 17 (the cost of a 9th level power) and you get 24 and some change.
A 20th level Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day if every time they expend 17 or more power points its a 9th level spell.
Yup. Nobody debates that a psion could go nova. This isn't news. By doing so, he deprives himself of all those juicy 8th, and 7th level powers that any wizard or sorcerer worth their salt would still consider very much creamy, crop-wise.
By comparison a Wizard can cast 4+ 1 for specialization +1 for his item and if he has a 28 Int +1 for bonus int, to at most 7.
Right. And a butt-load of things like fireball which despite being 3rd-level scales its damage FOR FREE up to being like a 5th-level spell except the DC.
That's less than 1/3rd as many "max level abilities". If we give that same Psion a 28 Int (since the wizard got his ninth level bonus) his PP total goes up to 343+90-- bringing him to over 25 9th level powers per day.
But a wizard - as demonstrated above - can cast magic missile all day long and it's just like it were a 5th-level spell. 5d4+5 and everything? No save. Auto-hit. That's right... his 1st-level slots are actually 5th-level slots.
So maybe the tricked out Ego whip is a "higher level" use, but its ok because Psion can use those far more often than wizards/clerics/druids/sorcerers can.
Which isn't practical in a game that in any way addresses the nova effect, which is exactly what keeps getting pointed out as the one thing DMs need to do.
And lets keep in mind-- I don't play Psion and don't often have them in my games. I am not good at optimizing Psion, I am sure someone who is can find more ridiculous things to do with it.
Sure. Like a wizard.
19 Power points is 1d4+ 3d4 for 4d4 then 4 points to maximize which is 16/2 on save= 8= dead.
If as a Wizard I could cast 25 9th level spells he wouldn't need to use those "juicy" 8th/7th/6th level powers. . .
Suffocate is a bad spell; it wasn't playtested or the results that said it was way too powerful, SoD on repeating saves is ridiculous. That's a single, poorly designed spell (two if you count its Mass version).
The only reason Psionics doesn't have more overpowered effects like that is that it that it has had fewer things published for it.
The system in a vacuum is built around an overpowered concept i.e. getting to use all your abilities as max level.
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If as a Wizard I could cast 25 9th level spells he wouldn't need to use those "juicy" 8th/7th/6th level powers. . .
I'd say that you severely overestimate 9th level spells, but sadly Gate and wish are still things. I will instead state that you sell 4th-level-and-higher casting very short. There are TONS of staples even as low as 2nd level spells that a wizard will carry with them through the day, and if he "only" got 25 9th level spells he'd be using a significant portion of them re-creating those staples.
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If as a Wizard I could cast 25 9th level spells he wouldn't need to use those "juicy" 8th/7th/6th level powers. . .Suffocate is a bad spell; it wasn't playtested or the results that said it was way too powerful, SoD on repeating saves is ridiculous. That's a single, poorly designed spell (two if you count its Mass version).
The only reason Psionics doesn't have more overpowered effects like that is that it that it has had fewer things published for it.
The system in a vacuum is built around an overpowered concept i.e. getting to use all your abilities as max level.
It doesn't seem that way. Consider the 10th level Psion as compared to the Wizard. He has to take a specific discipline and augment a 4th level power(He doesn't actually get fireball till 7th) with 3 points to get a 10d6+10 fireball. He can throw 8 of these 10d6+10s then he has to use a 8d6+8 before he runs completely out.
Now lets take a look at an Admixture Evoker. He gets 3 Empowered Fireballs at (10d6+5)*1.5, then has another 8 Fireballs at 10d6+5 since he can use his 4th level slots for it. He still has all of his 2nd and 1st level spells as well.
Simulacrum and Planar Binding are in the core line and allow you to break games easily. Icy Prison is a save and lose. And those are just off the top of my head.