Greater Trip Question

[Darthslash]

I'm making a character that will focus on tripping opponents. So I'd like a quick clarification on how this will work.

Q: When I perform a trip using the greater trip feat, I am allowed to make an attack of opportunity against the opponent I just tripped, but....is that attack against the opponent while he's still standing, (perhaps in the process of falling) or is he considered prone for this attack?

Thx,
Darthslash

[Davick]

Prone

[Mucronis]

sorry Davick, but that is incorrect.

FAQ regarding Greater Trip.

FAQ regarding AoO interactions regarding prone chars..

TL;DR. The AoO is when he's still standing.

[Horselord]

The standard rule is an Attack of Opportunity occurs prior to the action that provoked it.

As an example, you can't use the Trip manoeuvre on a prone opponent who stands up (because they are still prone when the AoO takes place).

[Davick]

Mucronis wrote:

sorry Davick, but that is incorrect.

FAQ regarding Greater Trip.

FAQ regarding AoO interactions regarding prone chars..

TL;DR. The AoO is when he's still standing.

Not buying it. Greater trip requires a successful trip attack, if the opponent is not prone they were not successfully tripped. The wording of the first FAQ you posted doesn't say anything to the contrary, and the second is irrelevant.

[Darklord Morius]

The FAQs don't says the AoO occurs befor the trippings. I'm with Davick, the AoO occurs when the opponent is prone (successfully tripped).

[Moondragon Starshadow]

As mentioned by Horselord, an AoO happens prior to the action that provoked it. Which is like looking at an alternate reality situation where time and gameplay slightly goes backwards for a moment.

So in a rules mechanical way (ignore reality for a moment), the AoO of the greater trip technically goes off prior to the act of tripping (again, ignore reality for a moment). So the opponent was standing, was hit by an AoO, and then successfully tripped. Now, in reality mode, the trip happened and then the AoO, but the AoO has be resolved as if the opponent was standing.

This is also the mechanical way of looking at an opponent standing up, provoking an AoO. You cannot trip the opponent using an AoO in this instance because it happens prior to him actually standing up, so in this instance the opponent is prone (and thus unable to be tripped). So, going back to the weird world of AoO, you do the AoO while the opponent is prone and then stands up.

As long as you do this wacky wild pseudo reality time conversion, AoO questions can usually get resolved. The moment you insert normal timeflow of reality does it get tricky, and why people argue about it on the forums and say things like "not buying it" or whatever. I find the best explanation is the issue of why you cannot re-trip someone standing up as the best way to address the unusual time flow issues in AoO. See this FAQ

[Moondragon Starshadow]

Darklord Morius wrote:

The FAQs don't says the AoO occurs befor the trippings. I'm with Davick, the AoO occurs when the opponent is prone (successfully tripped).

It quite clearly states it happens before the trip.

"Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."

Not sure why that's unclear.

[Darklord Morius]

The AoO from Greater Trip does not happens when the opponent tries to stand up, when the foe tries to stand up, you receive an AoO against him, no matter if you have a feat or not. Greater Trip states that you do receive an AoO against the opponent when you successfully tripped him.

Before any counter-argument, please enlight me what happens with someone when you successfully trip him?

[Randarak]

Awww, I thought that this was going to be about how to have a better travel vacation.

[Elbedor]

It does seem a bit confusing. Greater Trip points out that you must successfully trip your opponent in order to get the AoO. But AoO rules clearly state that the attack takes place before the action that is triggering it resolves. So in effect it would appear that:

#1 Your CMB roll exceeds the CMD of the target.
#2 This means your Trip Attempt was successful.
#3 AoO triggered and made against the target.
#4 Target falls prone in his square.

So it would seem the attack takes place right before the target is actually prone.

What I'm wondering though...and it's not stated anywhere in the rules that I'm aware of...since the target is in the act of falling, could they technically be thought of as "off balance"?...meaning open to Sneak damage? I know whenever I've taken a tumble I'm certainly off balance right before I smack the ground. Anyway, off topic perhaps and not RAW that I know of, but interesting none the less.

[Darklord Morius]

Ok, in RAW it looks stupid. I will just stick to my future trip for Europe.

[KainPen]

The FAQ setup that way to prevent mortal combat trip lock meanuver. where you get the person at the edge of the screen and you trip them and keep doing it because they can't stand up or backup any more. You can just keep doing it over and over again until you win the fight. if you want to preform aoo when the person is actual prone there is another feat for that see vicuous stomp.

[Kazaan]

You determine success before you resolve the effect. Same applies to a readied action; it occurs before the action that prompts it. If I ready an action to make an Attack action with Greater Vital Strike against an enemy that tries to attack me, he comes up and declares the attack, but my readied action pre-empts it. Lets say my attack kills him right out. How can he have triggered my readied action in the first place if he's dead before he made his attack? Who cares; it's mechanics, not simulation. So when you trip a target, you first roll to determine success or failure. If it succeeds, you immediately (ie. before adjudicating the "makes them fall prone" part) resolve the AoO. Then, if the result of your AoO doesn't prevent them from resolving their provoking action, they continue to resolve it.

From a cinematic point of view, you're hitting them "on the way down" after a successful trip.

[Davick]

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

Darklord Morius wrote:

The FAQs don't says the AoO occurs befor the trippings. I'm with Davick, the AoO occurs when the opponent is prone (successfully tripped).

It quite clearly states it happens before the trip.

"Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up."

Not sure why that's unclear.

That's not unclear. It's irrelevant. We're talking about the AoO for falling down, not standing up.

Greater Trip: ...successfully trip a foe...

If a foe is not prone, you have not successfully tripped them. Not sure what's unclear about that. The feat is explicit. I'm all for having it be before they tripped, as that is adding insult to injury, but I'm not seeing it in the rules.

I think I see what is happening. Notice that this FAQ talks about an action triggering the AoO. The problem is, we aren't talking about an action, we're talking a about a feat that is granting an AoO. The enemy is taking NO action, so discussing whether their action is resolved before or after is nonsensical.

Call it specific overriding general if you want, but I don't think that's necessary.

[Mucronis]

Attacks of Opportunity:

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Maneuvers:

Combat Maneuvers
During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success.

Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect.

or look at it this way, snuggles the Halfling wizard with his 8 in strength is out of spells and desperate, he makes a melee attack (with a dagger) against murgur the orc barbarian. Amazingly snuggles hits the orc (but does not crit) The dagger is a plain normal dagger, no magic in it, so Snuggles does 1d3-1 damage with it. Against Murgur's DR of 4 he is out of luck.

The point is, success is when your dice roll + various modifiers is equal or higher then the AC / DC / CMD. what happens next is the result of said success (dealing damage / Stealthing /tripping, bull rushing or whatnot.)

[Davick]

Mucronis wrote:

Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect.

Well now, that is interesting. You should have linked that the first time instead of that other stuff.

[Mucronis]

yeah, I probably should have.

[Aspasia de Malagant]

Mucronis wrote:

The point is, success is when your dice roll + various modifiers is equal or higher then the AC / DC / CMD. what happens next is the result of said success (dealing damage / Stealthing /tripping, bull rushing or whatnot.)

Point taken but how can you separate the two? If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

[Moondragon Starshadow]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

Mucronis wrote:

The point is, success is when your dice roll + various modifiers is equal or higher then the AC / DC / CMD. what happens next is the result of said success (dealing damage / Stealthing /tripping, bull rushing or whatnot.)

Point taken but how can you separate the two? If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

Again, while not the direct question, the process is best explained by trying to trip someone standing up. The act of standing up provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Everyone here I assume agrees with that.

Okay, so the opponent is in the process of standing up. That means he's not laying on the ground prone. So far, so good? Okay, moving on.

You try to trip the person as part of your Attack of Opportunity, since he's in the process of standing up. So far, so good? No. According to the FAQ, this isn't what actually happens.

According to the FAQ, you have to assume the opponent is still prone, even though the AoO is generated from the process of standing up. Does this make any sense in reality? NO. Is that how the game does it? YES.

How then does the game do it? It says AoO's are always resolved prior to the actual event that triggered the AoO. So in the case of standing up, it's resolved as if the opponent was prone, which of course cannot be tripped. Now, apply this to Greater Trip. If the act of tripping creates the AoO, then it must be resolved as if the opponent is standing, not falling or prone. It's the exact same logic.

Yes, I realize it doesn't make physical, normal experience sense. You are free to house-rule it to make more like reality. But realize there is a reason for this particular rule: if you don't resolve AoO's just prior to whatever triggered the AoO, you will end up making many combat maneuvers much more powerful than intended. A smart GM will use these tactics against you, which can work much like a stun-lock, and you'll be incredibly frustrated very quickly.

[Kazaan]

It's easy if you think of it as a card game with a "Stack" (like MTG). You have two cards in your hand, Trip, and AoO. You have the Greater Trip enchantment in play which allows you to play an AoO to the stack when you play a Trip card. So you lay the Trip card on the table and immediately place the AoO card on top of it. If there are no more cards to play, you start resolving the stack, starting with the card on top. The first card to get resolved is the AoO card, followed by the Trip card. They're not prone when you resolve the AoO card because the Trip card hasn't been resolved yet.

Next turn, your opponent plays the Stand Up card and you respond by placing an AoO card because that's a default rule (provided he doesn't have an Enchantment card in play that prevents you from playing AoO on his Stand Up card). Again, you resolve the stack; last in, first out. AoO resolves first against the prone opponent. Then, Stand Up resolves and they remove their Prone condition.

This can also get kind of silly; say you have Greater Trip but you don't have Improved Disarm (or equivalent). You Trip them, then play your Disarm card in place of an AoO (by default rules). Your Disarm card provokes an AoO from the target. He plays a Sunder card. That provokes an AoO from you (presume you both have Combat Reflexes). You keep adding more cards to the stack, and each one, in turn, provokes another AoO until one of you has no more potential AoOs with which to respond. Now, you have this big stack of 8 cards that are resolved in 'Last In, First Out' order.

For the sake of example, we'll say the order of the stack, from bottom to top, is Trip>>Disarm>>Sunder>>Disarm>>Sunder>>Disarm>>Sunder>>Attack (ooc blue actions are your opponent's).
They'd then resolve in reverse order: Attack(succeed, 4 damage)>>Sunder(fail)>>Disarm(fail)>>Sunder(fail)>>Disarm(succeed, target is disarmed)>>Sunder(auto-fail, weapon no longer available)>>Disarm(auto-fail, target has no weapon)>>Trip(succeed, target falls prone).

[Drake Brimstone]

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

As mentioned by Horselord, an AoO happens prior to the action that provoked it. Which is like looking at an alternate reality situation where time and gameplay slightly goes backwards for a moment.

So in a rules mechanical way (ignore reality for a moment), the AoO of the greater trip technically goes off prior to the act of tripping (again, ignore reality for a moment). So the opponent was standing, was hit by an AoO, and then successfully tripped. Now, in reality mode, the trip happened and then the AoO, but the AoO has be resolved as if the opponent was standing.

This is also the mechanical way of looking at an opponent standing up, provoking an AoO. You cannot trip the opponent using an AoO in this instance because it happens prior to him actually standing up, so in this instance the opponent is prone (and thus unable to be tripped). So, going back to the weird world of AoO, you do the AoO while the opponent is prone and then stands up.

As long as you do this wacky wild pseudo reality time conversion, AoO questions can usually get resolved. The moment you insert normal timeflow of reality does it get tricky, and why people argue about it on the forums and say things like "not buying it" or whatever. I find the best explanation is the issue of why you cannot re-trip someone standing up as the best way to address the unusual time flow issues in AoO. See this FAQ

I love the whole alternate reality, time flow stuff. By your logic I have had this happen many times:

I hit the Foe because I'm going to trip him.
I trip the Foe because he is going to attempt to move through my threatened square.
Foe attempts to move through my threatened square but can't because I tripped him.

And once I had it go this way:

I hit and killed the Foe because I'm going to trip him.
I tripped the Foe, but he's already dead, so I tripped his corpse because it was going to move through my threatened square.
His Corpse can't move through my threatened square because I tripped it.. oh and because he died too.

Elbedor wrote:

What I'm wondering though...and it's not stated anywhere in the rules that I'm aware of...since the target is in the act of falling, could they technically be thought of as "off balance"?...meaning open to Sneak damage? I know whenever I've taken a tumble I'm certainly off balance right before I smack the ground. Anyway, off topic perhaps and not RAW that I know of, but interesting none the less.

He is "off Balance" that is why you get the AoO.

Now, the way I see it, You get the AoO because he is "Off Balance" and about to fall, you have already "tripped" him, but he is not prone yet, he is in the act of falling. Once he is Prone, he is no longer "Off Balance" and thus no longer provoking AoOs, but is now easier to hit (-4 AC vs. Melee attacks for being Prone.)

[Voadam]

Elbedor wrote:

What I'm wondering though...and it's not stated anywhere in the rules that I'm aware of...since the target is in the act of falling, could they technically be thought of as "off balance"?...meaning open to Sneak damage? I know whenever I've taken a tumble I'm certainly off balance right before I smack the ground. Anyway, off topic perhaps and not RAW that I know of, but interesting none the less.

Falling and off balance is not denied dex or flanked so no sneak attack.

[Ravingdork]

Got a player with a powerful monk tripper build who is going to HATE this.

...And so soon after the Crane Wing fiasco cut him down too.

[Mucronis]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

Mucronis wrote:

The point is, success is when your dice roll + various modifiers is equal or higher then the AC / DC / CMD. what happens next is the result of said success (dealing damage / Stealthing /tripping, bull rushing or whatnot.)

Point taken but how can you separate the two? If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

Take my example of Snuggles the Halfling wizard with a strength score of 8 (a -1 modifier)

Snuggles has just be attacked by Murgur the orc barbarian (amazingly Snuggles survived the at the time Charging barbarian)
Snuggles is all out of spells (and as a inexperienced adventurer he has NOT prepared any Offensive/attacking cantrips) and he has a dagger drawn.
Snuggles attacks and hits (but does not crit) and does 1d3-1 damage.
Murgur the Orc has a DR of 4. So no matter how solid a hit Snuggles gets, it will not do any damage on Murgur.

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

By that reasoning, Snuggles never hit Murgur the Orc as he did NOT do damage on him, yet that isn't true, as Snuggles attack roll was equal or greater the Murgur's AC.

AoO vs prone:

It would be the same as making a Trip AoO against someone standing up, yes you can do it, success is simply beating the AC/CMD/DC. The target is still immune to the condition that would be applied (or rather he already has said condition, and they don't stack)
Or making a Trip attempt vs someone or something that is immune to the Prone condition (NOT immune to trip attempts, as that would not be a valid target to start with) success is possible, it simply will not have the expected result.
A successful Trip attack with Greater Trip vs something immune to the Prone condition would still provoke AoO. BUT most GM's (myself included) would most likely not let that sort of cheese work in there game(PFS excluded ofc)
This last statment is based on the assumption that "Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect." and Greater trip "looks" for a success, NOT the application of the listed effect. So the Prone immune thing provoking from Greater trip COULD be wrong, it is only based on my understanding of the "chain of events"

[Moondragon Starshadow]

Ravingdork wrote:

Got a player with a powerful monk tripper build who is going to HATE this.

...And so soon after the Crane Wing fiasco cut him down too.

With how time warps when resolving AoO's, many players (including myself at one point) didn't understand this. I wouldn't penalize someone for building a character a certain way assuming normal timeflow. I'd let them redo the character (if they so choose) after explaining the strange time warp aspect of AoOs.

For monks, I'm pretty sure you can combine the trip AoO with I believe a Ki throw that moves them to a different square, which also provokes. There's a post on it somewhere, but I'm not an expert on monk abilities so I can't recall the names of the abilities/feats. The devs gave it a thumbs up because it took a lot of feats to accomplish that many AoOs. I only mention this because you said it was a MONK player.

[Elbedor]

Voadam wrote:

Elbedor wrote:

What I'm wondering though...and it's not stated anywhere in the rules that I'm aware of...since the target is in the act of falling, could they technically be thought of as "off balance"?...meaning open to Sneak damage? I know whenever I've taken a tumble I'm certainly off balance right before I smack the ground. Anyway, off topic perhaps and not RAW that I know of, but interesting none the less.

Falling and off balance is not denied dex or flanked so no sneak attack.

Sorry. Was thinking of the maintaining balance portion of Acrobatics and how doing that makes you flat-footed. Figured the mechanics were very similar, although as I mentioned, not RAW anywhere that I know of.

[Davick]

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

Mucronis wrote:

The point is, success is when your dice roll + various modifiers is equal or higher then the AC / DC / CMD. what happens next is the result of said success (dealing damage / Stealthing /tripping, bull rushing or whatnot.)

Point taken but how can you separate the two? If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

Okay, so the opponent is in the process of standing up. That means he's not laying on the ground prone. So far, so good? Okay, moving on.

You try to trip the person as part of your Attack of Opportunity, since he's in the process of standing up. So far, so good? No. According to the FAQ, this isn't what actually happens.

According to the FAQ, you have to assume the opponent is still prone, even though the AoO is generated from the process of standing up. Does this make any sense in reality? NO. Is that how the game does it? YES.

But wouldn't that be the closest state to where a person in mid trip would be also? If they're in the same mid-state, it would be consistent for them to be treated the same rules wise. Not supported in the rules, just pointing it out.

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

How then does the game do it? It says AoO's are always resolved prior to the actual event that triggered the AoO. So in the case of standing up, it's resolved as if the opponent was prone, which of course cannot be tripped. Now, apply this to Greater Trip. If the act of tripping creates the AoO, then it must be resolved as if the opponent is standing, not falling or prone. It's the exact same logic.

Ah, but that is not what the game says.

Attacks of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

It interrupts the action sure. And it is resolved prior to the event that triggered it, usually. But for instance, a vicious stomp AoO is not made before a character is prone, despite that a character falling prone is what triggers it, correct? We are talking about much the same thing. A Feat, and not an action granting an AoO and having it come about only AFTER meeting a condition not BEFORE another character's action.

I'm sort of on the fence here and playing Devil's Advocate to try and parse the issue. TO me it seems to come down to how you want to pick apart the phrase "your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect."

That "and" is what it all hinges on. With it being so close, I personally intend to go with what I believe to be the intent, which is that you knock someone to the floor so greatly (greater trip) and then take advantage of their prone state and hit them while they're down. But I can still be convinced otherwise.

Mucronis wrote:

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

If it is successful it will have the listed consequence, if it is not it will not. Success and consequence are inseparable.

By that reasoning, Snuggles never hit Murgur the Orc as he did NOT do damage on him, yet that isn't true, as Snuggles attack roll was equal or greater the Murgur's AC.

A consequence of a feeble attack is that it does no damage. It still happened. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. And if you wanna get technical, he did damage him. The damage is applied to him and then reduced by DR. In that order. He took a point of damage, he then reduced it.

[Hawktitan]

As others have said the AOO from Greater Trip is before the trip is successful.

I think that Vicious Stomp on the other hand should be an AOO after the target is prone.

[Darthslash]

I think I'm starting to see what you all mean now.

I mean, if a creature steps out of one of my threatened squares, away from me,...

...If I AOO before he steps away from me, I can hit him.

...If I AOO after he's done moving, he's now out of my range.

[Ravingdork]

I may have missed it, could someone please point out the RAW passage where it clearly and specifically states that attacks of opportunity occur prior to their triggering event?

[The Todd]

Hawktitan wrote:

As others have said the AOO from Greater Trip is before the trip is successful.

I think that Vicious Stomp on the other hand should be an AOO after the target is prone.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9qde

[Ravingdork]

So, if an attack of opportunity occurs BEFORE the triggering event, wouldn't that mean that both the AoO from Greater Trip AND Vicious Stomp treat the target as standing?

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

[James Risner]

Ravingdork wrote:

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

How does it benefit others more?

Everyone has to take their AoO before they are prone. So others are in the same boat.

Or what am I missing?

[Ravingdork]

All of your allies get AoO's the moment you trip someone with Greater Trip. Then their turn comes up and they get to barrel on the prone guy.

Your turn then comes up again, but the guy's already stood up.

[Glutton]

There's been a lot of threads about this, and viscous stomp

[Kazaan]

Ravingdork wrote:

I may have missed it, could someone please point out the RAW passage where it clearly and specifically states that attacks of opportunity occur prior to their triggering event?

It interrupts the normal flow of combat and resolves immediately. A FAQ, written by the people who made the game, has established and clarified what, "AoOs interrupt the normal flow of combat and resolve immediately," means for those not able to figure it out for themselves; it means that, once triggered for a declared action, it happens before the triggering action has resolved. You can arrive at this conclusion logically using the simple situation that Darth Slash presented above you:

If someone declares moving from a threatened square into a non-threatened square, the AoO must come before the movement has started because, after they leave the threatened square, you can no longer attack them.

[redward]

Ravingdork wrote:

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

In a game where you play with a party of other people why is that a bad thing?

[Davick]

Hawktitan wrote:

As others have said the AOO from Greater Trip is before the trip is successful.

That's exactly the opposite of what the feat actually says. And I see no way to apply it that way without doing the same with Vicious Stomp.

RD isn't saying it's a bad thing, just lame.

There's a difference in the assumed provocation of an AoO, an opponent's action, used for the combat section, and the specific cases created by feats. Quite a lot. It makes no sense to talk about interrupting an action when it's YOUR action.

Imagine a guy in the middle of tripping an opponent "Heh I'm totally tripping this guy. Wait a second let me just stop and him him mid fall... with the weapon I still technically have wrapped around his legs or whatever. It'll be sweet. Haha that was awesome. What was I doing? Oh yeah, tripping him. I'm so cool."

[Quantum Steve]

Kazaan wrote:

It's easy if you think of it as a card game with a "Stack" (like MTG). You have two cards in your hand, Trip, and AoO. You have the Greater Trip enchantment in play which allows you to play an AoO to the stack when you play a Trip card. So you lay the Trip card on the table and immediately place the AoO card on top of it. If there are no more cards to play, you start resolving the stack, starting with the card on top. The first card to get resolved is the AoO card, followed by the Trip card. They're not prone when you resolve the AoO card because the Trip card hasn't been resolved yet.

Next turn, your opponent plays the Stand Up card and you respond by placing an AoO card because that's a default rule (provided he doesn't have an Enchantment card in play that prevents you from playing AoO on his Stand Up card). Again, you resolve the stack; last in, first out. AoO resolves first against the prone opponent. Then, Stand Up resolves and they remove their Prone condition.

That's a poor analogy. Before you can play the AoO card, the Trip card has to resolve (i.e. the trip was successful), so the Trip card would have left the stack and the opponent is prone.

Which is exactly how Davik said it works.

Your Stand Up example is spot on. In fact,that's how AoOs work most of the time.

[redward]

Davick wrote:

Hawktitan wrote:

As others have said the AOO from Greater Trip is before the trip is successful.

That's exactly the opposite of what the feat actually says. And I see no way to apply it that way without doing the same with Vicious Stomp.

RD isn't saying it's a bad thing, just lame.

I guess I'm just confused why any of this is surprising when he seemed to understand it 2 years ago.

Nothing in the description of AoOs

Making an Attack of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

is altered by the descriptions of those Feats.

Greater Trip forces the enemy to suffer a number of instant AoOs, and they have to try to stand up on their turn or suffer -4 to their melee attacks and AC until they do.

It's a pretty good feat as is.

[ayronc]

Ravingdork wrote:

So, if an attack of opportunity occurs BEFORE the triggering event, wouldn't that mean that both the AoO from Greater Trip AND Vicious Stomp treat the target as standing?

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

Not quite. The trigger for the AOO from Greater Trip is succeeding at tripping the target. You then take your AOO, prior to the opponent falling, and therefore not gaining any benefits for a prone target (as the target is not yet prone).

After the Greater Trip AOO is resolved the target falls and is prone. It is the target becoming prone which is the trigger for Vicious Stomp and so you take the AOO related to that action then, gaining the benefit of the target's -4 AC due to being prone.

Obviously the normal Caveats such as Combat Reflexes and available AOO are required, although a character may wish to not use the Greater Trip AOO if they do not have enough to then make the Vicious Stomp AOO (which will be made at an advantage).

I have a Monk who uses a Hyena Skin to take make a Trip attempt as a Swift Action, a Vicious Stomp AOO (with Stunning Fist) if successful and then a full group of Flurry of Blows attacks against the prone (and maybe stunned) opponent. Doesn't always work, but when it does it can be quite fun and improves the to-hit chances dramatically.

[Drake Brimstone]

Ravingdork wrote:

All of your allies get AoO's the moment you trip someone with Greater Trip. Then their turn comes up and they get to barrel on the prone guy.

Your turn then comes up again, but the guy's already stood up.

Not the way I play it, I usually trip them the first time on THEIR turn, then they convert their standard to another move and stand up. And I got to take 3 AoOs on their turn. Once it reaches my turn, I just trip them again, and take another AoO (I get 5 per round atm on my whip master.)

They frequently don't live long enough to stand up again if I have Allies standing next to them during all of this. (And some are smart enough to just stay down.)

[Elbedor]

Apologies if I've missed it, but did (or could) someone post where the rules define what a "successful trip" is? I'm a bit distracted here as I've read through this thread and may have missed something.

I'm totally in the camp of "AoOs take place right before the event that triggers them." It's right there in the rules. But sometimes those rules don't make sense. Which means:

#1 You hit the guy after he attempts to move out of your threatened square but before he actually leaves it. (Ok, got it. This makes sense).
#2 You hit the guy after you've successfully tripped him, but before he actually falls prone. (The rules say this is what happens, but how can I perform an AoO with my whip when I have the thing wrapped around his legs in the act of tripping him?)
#3 You stomp the guy after he begins to fall prone, but per the rules of AoO the stomp takes place before the trigger, meaning before he's actually prone since his falling prone is what provokes. (This doesn't make sense either...so he fell prone and I get to kick him as he falls, but before he actually falls???)

So the rules are the rules, but they don't always make sense...sort of like halflings pinning giants. :P

[Drake Brimstone]

Elbedor wrote:

Apologies if I've missed it, but did (or could) someone post where the rules define what a "successful trip" is? I'm a bit distracted here as I've read through this thread and may have missed something.

I'm totally in the camp of "AoOs take place right before the event that triggers them." It's right there in the rules. But sometimes those rules don't make sense. Which means:

#1 You hit the guy after he attempts to move out of your threatened square but before he actually leaves it. (Ok, got it. This makes sense).
#2 You hit the guy after you've successfully tripped him, but before he actually falls prone. (The rules say this is what happens, but how can I perform an AoO with my whip when I have the thing wrapped around his legs in the act of tripping him?)
#3 You stomp the guy after he begins to fall prone, but per the rules of AoO the stomp takes place before the trigger, meaning before he's actually prone since his falling prone is what provokes. (This doesn't make sense either...so he fell prone and I get to kick him as he falls, but before he actually falls???)

So the rules are the rules, but they don't always make sense...sort of like halflings pinning giants. :P

#2 The rules are actually saying you are hitting the guy before you are tripping him, not while you are tripping him. Your whip is free to attack him because you haven't tripped him with it yet, but don't worry, you will even if he's now dead when you do it.

Don't think to hard about it, it's all Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey stuff.

[Majuba]

Glutton wrote:

There's been a lot of threads about this, and viscous stomp

I thought only mud elementals could use viscous stomp...

Seriously all, you attempt a trip, you succeed, they are tripped, and they provoke an AoO, resolved immediately. Adding anything else is unnecessary and silly.

Prone.

[Elbedor]

Drake Brimstone wrote:

#2 The rules are actually saying you are hitting the guy before you are tripping him, not while you are tripping him. Your whip is free to attack him because you haven't tripped him with it yet, but don't worry, you will even if he's now dead when you do it.

Not certain that's how it actually plays out, but I fully agree the whole thing gets wonky. Of course I don't know what's harder to swallow...

#1 attacking a guy with a whip that I'm in the process of using to trip him with

or

#2 killing a guy with a whip. :P

Majuba wrote:

Seriously all, you attempt a trip, you succeed, they are tripped, and they provoke an AoO, resolved immediately. Adding anything else is unnecessary and silly.

Prone.

PF can be so unkind to us over-thinkers. :)

[Elbedor]

In an attempt to cut down on the arguing on these boards, some people put forth the importance of reading the rules with a fair application of Common Sense. I totally agree that Common Sense is a good thing and GMs exercising it can cut down on a lot of infighting over the rules. But then something like this comes along which makes no real rational sense at all and now some people are saying to ignore the weirdness of the rules and just go along with them as written. It's magic. It's whatever. It is what it is.

So am I suppose to use my Common Sense and say the rules are wonky here and in need of a fix? Or am I to ignore it and just go along? Maybe that's part of the disconnect in some of these threads. I'm not complaining, mind, nor looking just to instigate anything (my rank is really low in that skill). Just pointing out that the double-talk can get a bit confusing for some.

Yes, RAW is clear that AoO takes place at a moment in time just before the event that provokes it. This makes sense when you see the guy attempting to leave your threatened square, or you spot him pulling the potion from his belt with the intent to drink it. Basically you beat him to the punch and get a shot off before he can resolve his action.

But then other times RAW is not so clear and would seem to run counter to Common Sense. Like the guy you get a free Stomp on for falling prone who hasn't actually fallen prone yet.

Only my humble observation anyway.

[kinevon]

Ravingdork wrote:

So, if an attack of opportunity occurs BEFORE the triggering event, wouldn't that mean that both the AoO from Greater Trip AND Vicious Stomp treat the target as standing?

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

In some ways, but the AoO for Vicious Stomp is for when the target goes prone from a trip, not from being tripped, so:

Greater Trip CMB+d20 is higher than the target's CMD.
AoOs from Greater Trip occur, so no -4 penalty to AC from being prone.
Target goes prone from being tripped.
AoO from Vicious Stomp occurs, which has the -4 penalty to the target's AC from being prone.

Note: As an interesting aside, if you have an ally who is an archer, with the approriate chain of Snap Shot feats, this gives them an AoO, without the prone penalty to ranged attacks, from the Greater Trip if the target is within the archer's threatened area.

[thenovalord]

My nagaji Oracle of battle 14th in SeSk AP who is scythe trip maniac now has a headache.