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For all purposes concerning wielding it. As far as physical qualities of the weapon (ie. HP, using special materials, whether it can be a Black Blade, etc), it has to be considered a one-handed weapon in its own right. But a Magus using T&F to wield an Earthbreaker one-handed now qualifies to use said Earthbreaker as his designated weapon during Spell Combat which requires that you wield a light or one-handed weapon. Normally, an Earthrbeaker wouldn't qualify; but it does if you have an ability that lets you wield it one-handed.Yes, how you are able to wield a weapon changes its designation for the purpose of effort. If you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, for you it is a one-handed weapon for all purposes except the item's hit points. There is mechanical proof of this in the bastard sword.I don't agree with this perspective "for all purposes".
If I am a phalanx fighter and can use a glaive one handed, does it qualify for a Bladebound Magus?
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.
I missed this a while back.
Wielding it in one hand doesn't actually qualify it for that situation. It is still a Two Handed Weapon.
Another thing is that, as your quote, the EB is a bludgeoning weapon, a Black Blade required a Slashing weapon.
For all purposes concerning wielding it. As far as physical qualities of the weapon (ie. HP, using special materials, whether it can be a Black Blade, etc), it has to be considered a one-handed weapon in its own right. But a Magus using T&F to wield an Earthbreaker one-handed now qualifies to use said Earthbreaker as his designated weapon during Spell Combat which requires that you wield a light or one-handed weapon. Normally, an Earthrbeaker wouldn't qualify; but it does if you have an ability that lets you wield it one-handed.Yes, how you are able to wield a weapon changes its designation for the purpose of effort. If you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, for you it is a one-handed weapon for all purposes except the item's hit points. There is mechanical proof of this in the bastard sword.I don't agree with this perspective "for all purposes".
If I am a phalanx fighter and can use a glaive one handed, does it qualify for a Bladebound Magus?
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.I missed this a while back.
Wielding it in one hand doesn't actually qualify it for that situation. It is still a Two Handed Weapon.
Another thing is that, as your quote, the EB is a bludgeoning weapon, a Black Blade required a Slashing weapon.
I'm sure there is a feat or ability to treat it as slashing.
I missed this a while back.
Wielding it in one hand doesn't actually qualify it for that situation. It is still a Two Handed Weapon.
yep, we know that's what you think.
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The weapon doesn't change. The effort required to wield it does. One of the rules you quoted numerous times uses that exact phrase. So as I said, stop being intentionally obtuse. Either contribute to the debate or leave the thread. It is quite obvious you are wrong. Either admit that and bow out graciously or continue you your obstinatnce and be labeled the donkey you are acting like.
Who is being what?
I will cut and paste as you haven't actually responded to it.
The Measure of Effort that keeps propping up is the standard that is used to actually denote the categories of Light/One Handed/Two Handed. It is how the weapons are designed, to be used as such. Being able to circumvent that use, say using an EB as a One Handed Weapon, doesn't actually change the designation of that weapon, just how it is used. The Measure of Effort that the weapon is designed for doesn't suddenly change.
Your confusing the wielding of a weapon with the designation of design. Let me quote the earlier part for you, to see where I am coming from...
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
It then goes on until it mentions the measure of effort again and how it relates to the size difference between character and weapon. Nothing about the skills of the character, how it interacts with traits (Or traits), or if something else would be considered. Just weapon size VS. character size. If anything would change the scale, or supersede it, it would be mentioned in the relevant passage, such as it does for the Bastard Sword and in the Redcap Monster trait.
If anything would change the scale, or supersede it, it would be mentioned in the relevant passage, such as it does for the Bastard Sword and in the Redcap Monster trait.
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
For those who enjoy this thread, I suggest watching the Nye/Hamm debate.
I find it oddly ironic that I was watching the Ken/Ham debate (again) as you posted this. So apparently I am the target audience for this thread. lol.
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Using it one handed allows for the use of the Klar as a secondary weapon, notice that it is now used as a light weapon. This feat is basically removing penalties for using the EB and Klar in this way.
It is the fact that the Earth Breaker is a two-handed weapon that normally prevents the use of the Klar. Using it as though it was a one handed weapon allows for this use, but does not actually change the weapon's designation. It does not change the scale or supersede it, it counts as two handed, used in one hand.
Notice, it still says it is a two handed weapon, but only acts as a one handed weapon when used.
I am all for the double wielding of the EB's, though that is stretching the intent of the feat, but wielding a larger version of a two handed weapon is beyond the scope of the feat.
Now, we are both repeating points and I have tried to say this in other ways, reference rules and even a lighter tone with movie references and such.
I am just not sure, I was re-reading the beginning of the thread and it seems that the few that want the HAM are putting their fingers in their ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CaN'T HeAR YOu...
I just want you to know, if you go to a PFS game and show a character using an oversized Two Handed weapon using this feat, the GM is going to tell you flat out. "No."
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Notice, it still says it is a two handed weapon, but only acts as a one handed weapon when used.
ok, so when being used it counts as one-handed. That's step 1.
Now, ThaX, what are you able to do with a weapon 1 size category bigger that is one-handed for you?
That's thaX.
It acts as a one handed weapon. It is still a Two Handed weapon being wielded as such. That is what I am saying.
slow down there turbo, we haven't gotten there yet.
I asked what are you able to do with a weapon 1 size category bigger that is one-handed for you?
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You jumping ahead.
Lets imagine five boxes written on a piece of paper, the end boxes say "Not Wieldable" and the middle goes "Light" "One-Handed" and "Two-Handed" and the words "Measure of Effort" is written as a caption. Now, put you mini on the box that represents the weapon you have, for the Earthbreaker it would be "Two-Handed." Now, when the weapon size or the character size changes, the mini moves. When you have a medium character get a large Two Handed weapon, then he moves one step forward, to the box "Not Wieldable."
Nothing in this feat changes that. The mini will not move because he can one hand the Two Handed weapon. That it is a Two Handed weapon never changes.
You can't wield a large Two Handed Weapon. This feat does not change that.
OK, running a game at Saltire tonight in Indy, I will check on you guys after that.
You jumping ahead.
Lets imagine five boxes written on a piece of paper, the end boxes say "Not Wieldable" and the middle goes "Light" "One-Handed" and "Two-Handed" and the words "Measure of Effort" is written as a caption. Now, put you mini on the box that represents the weapon you have, for the Earthbreaker it would be "Two-Handed." Now, when the weapon size or the character size changes, the mini moves. When you have a medium character get a large Two Handed weapon, then he moves one step forward, to the box "Not Wieldable."
Nothing in this feat changes that. The mini will not move because he can one hand the Two Handed weapon. That it is a Two Handed weapon never changes.
You can't wield a large Two Handed Weapon. This feat does not change that.
OK, running a game at Saltire tonight in Indy, I will check on you guys after that.
except for the part that you left out where you move the character to the "one-handed" box with this feat. Now when you step up to a large weapon you move the character from the "one-handed" box to the "two-handed box".
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You jumping ahead.
Lets imagine five boxes written on a piece of paper, the end boxes say "Not Wieldable" and the middle goes "Light" "One-Handed" and "Two-Handed" and the words "Measure of Effort" is written as a caption. Now, put you mini on the box that represents the weapon you have, for the Earthbreaker it would be "Two-Handed." Now, when the weapon size or the character size changes, the mini moves. When you have a medium character get a large Two Handed weapon, then he moves one step forward, to the box "Not Wieldable."
Nothing in this feat changes that. The mini will not move because he can one hand the Two Handed weapon. That it is a Two Handed weapon never changes.
You can't wield a large Two Handed Weapon. This feat does not change that.
OK, running a game at Saltire tonight in Indy, I will check on you guys after that.
except for the part that you left out where you move the character to the "one-handed" box with this feat. Now when you step up to a large weapon you move the character from the "one-handed" box to the "two-handed box".
You're implying that the weapon itself changes to a one-handed weapon once it's picked up. It does not. It remains a two-handed weapon wielded , and I quote from the feat "as though it were a one-handed weapon." You do not change the weapon, the feat allows you to use it one-handed. It remains a medium sized two-handed weapon. All Thunder and Fang allows you to do is use an Earthbreaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Then, from the Titan Mauler FAQ:
Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.
NOTHING in the Thunder and Fang feat says "the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule."
You jumping ahead.
Lets imagine five boxes written on a piece of paper, the end boxes say "Not Wieldable" and the middle goes "Light" "One-Handed" and "Two-Handed" and the words "Measure of Effort" is written as a caption. Now, put you mini on the box that represents the weapon you have, for the Earthbreaker it would be "Two-Handed." Now, when the weapon size or the character size changes, the mini moves. When you have a medium character get a large Two Handed weapon, then he moves one step forward, to the box "Not Wieldable."
Nothing in this feat changes that. The mini will not move because he can one hand the Two Handed weapon. That it is a Two Handed weapon never changes.
You can't wield a large Two Handed Weapon. This feat does not change that.
OK, running a game at Saltire tonight in Indy, I will check on you guys after that.
except for the part that you left out where you move the character to the "one-handed" box with this feat. Now when you step up to a large weapon you move the character from the "one-handed" box to the "two-handed box".
You're implying that the weapon itself changes to a one-handed weapon once it's picked up. It does not. It remains a two-handed weapon wielded , and I quote from the feat "as though it were a one-handed weapon." You do not change the weapon, the feat allows you to use it one-handed. It remains a medium sized two-handed weapon. All Thunder and Fang allows you to do is use an Earthbreaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Then, from the Titan Mauler FAQ:
NOTHING in the Thunder and Fang feat says "the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule."
Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the
The Titan mauler is not a valid counter example. Jotun grip specifies that the weapon must be of appropriate size, and Massive weapons only reduces the attack penalty of using bigger weapons. Neither of them say to treat a weapon as a smaller version of that weapon.
If Jotun Grip said "you can treat 2-handed weapons as 1-handed... " and you pointed to the FAQ you'd have a point. Unfortunately that's not the point of contention.
Again, if you're treating a 2-handed weapon as a 1-handed weapon, you reap all the benefits of said ability, including using the large version of said weapon 2-handed.
btw, this has been pointed out already.
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The character mini in my example looks at Character size and weapon size. Nothing in this feat would change either.
With the boxes I have lined out, the character mini would still stay on the Two Handed box with or without this feat. The fact that this feat allows one to wield a weapon differently doesn't actually change the weapon's designation. When you try to wield the larger version of the weapon, the character moves to not being able to wield the larger two handed weapon.
I told my players at my gaming store tonight about this thread, and it is not a situation that is unknown. There was the shaking of heads and the outright cringe of "wait, what?" at the notion of being able to dual wield Earth Breakers. A "What? Really?" when I mentioned the possibility that a player wanted to wield a larger two handed weapon with this feat.
I don't get why there is no valid comparison between this situation and the one for the Titan Mauler. This feat assumes that the EB is sized for the character, if it didn't, there would be mention of the size discrepancy.
I got the take on how to read rules from the shop owner. The American way vs. The British reading.
The Brits look at the rules to see what they can do. The Americans look at the rules to see what they can't do.
This feat tells you, you can wield an Earth Breaker and a Klar and TWF with them, counting the EB as a one handed weapon and the Klar as a light weapon whilst doing so, and retaining the AC bonus of the Klar all the while.
How does that go to being able to wield an oversized Maul?
Regarding YOU told your friends the story there is no guarantee you were unbiased. We have no way of knowing you even gave the full story.
With the boxes I have lined out, the character mini would still stay on the Two Handed box with or without this feat. The fact that this feat allows one to wield a weapon differently doesn't actually change the weapon's designation. When you try to wield the larger version of the weapon, the character moves to not being able to wield the larger two handed weapon.
ok, then by you're logic, following exactly what you said, you can wield a large bastard sword without the exotic proficiency feat.
This is how your logic pans out for a large bastard sword:
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The character would be in the one-handed box. Sure he might have to treat it 2-handed, but it's still a 1-handed weapon default.
Then the step-up to large would move him to the 2-handed box. Again, it states he has to treat it as 2-handed, but luckily for him it's already 2-handed.
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Now of course we know this isn't how that works, because the way you treat a weapon being wielded is what matters.
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What would my biased opinion be? That the Size rules are as they are? That two handed weapons are two handed weapon?
I told them the title of the thread, and one person cringed and goes "Wait, what?" When I told them the theory of using the EB one handed superseding the Size Rules (and the fact that one can't TWF with two Two-Handed weapons), the universal reaction was "uh... no."
The words "Why" and "How" were proffered at this point.
We, as a group, are biased against rules finagling to effect an outcome that is not in line with the intent of the rules. (This talks of TWF, inappropriately sized weapons and such as well as the feat itself)
That mini on those boxes is staying on Two Handed weapon for the appropriately sized Earth Breaker no matter the skill that this feat imparts. I hope that you can look at this new perspective and see how it is consistent between similar situations, such as the Titan Mauler FAQ and other concerns that have been brought up in this 700 plus post thread.
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The Bastard sword actually addresses this in it's own entry. A FAQ clarified it later on. It is an Exotic weapon that can be used differently for a martial trained character. It is a specific exception to the rule. The character relates it to being Two Handed because of the properties of the weapon that specifies this, and when EWP is taken, it moves that mini back to the designation of the weapon when the character learns to wield it proper.
I would ask to avoid bringing up the BS again, as it confused the matter and has no parallel to the EB in relation to the feat.
Thax, how about you actually address my point. The FAQ does not counter my point, but if you think it does, please show where.
The fact that you are not actually addressing the point others make is the reason people keep saying you're putting your fingers in your ear and go "LALALALALA I can't hear you".
Also, no I won't stop using the bastard sword since it's a valid example showing that it's the effort that matters, and until you show otherwise I won't ignore it. Notice that when I actually addressed the reasons Titan Maulers abilities are different.
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We, as a group, are biased against rules finagling to effect an outcome that is not in line with the intent of the rules. (This talks of TWF, inappropriately sized weapons and such as well as the feat itself)
Perhaps this is the root of the problem.
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What would my biased opinion be?
I told them the title of the thread, and one person cringed and goes "Wait, what?" When I told them the theory of using the EB one handed superseding the Size Rules (and the fact that one can't TWF with two Two-Handed weapons), the universal reaction was "uh... no."
you lead them to an answer, peer pressure is stronger than you think
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We, as a group, are biased against rules finagling to effect an outcome that is not in line with the intent of the rules. (This talks of TWF, inappropriately sized weapons and such as well as the feat itself)Perhaps this is the root of the problem.
Yes.
It is this finagling that reads the rules as "It doesn't actually say I can't do it, so therefore, I must mean that I can do it."
It doesn't say that you can do it either, just that you have the ability to use a weapon a certain way. Jumping to sliding the scale of the Size disparity or dual wielding weapons when the feat does not say "You can wield two Earth breakers, one in each hand" or "You can wield an oversized Earth Breaker (in two hands)" is, at best, selective reading of the rules or, at worst, ignoring complete sentences and cherry picking phrases and ignoring "fluff."
Sub Zero...
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13
I don't know, does "No" mean something different to you than it does to me?
It has been pointed out that wording is different, that something about the overall ability does not mirror the one sentence phrase in the Thunder and Fang feat. The overall point is that there still is nothing here that supersedes the Size rules any more than this example here. The Earth Breaker doesn't shrink, it steadfastly stays the same weapon no matter the skill that the character has to wield it with. The mini stays on the same square, it remains a Two-Handed weapon.
To tell me that it somehow changes means that some things would happen that doesn't happen and would also negate any advantage that is gained. The first thing is the step in damage would shrink, going from 2d6 to 2d4 damage. (Or perhaps 1d12 for the change from two handed to one handed) The second thing is that the Earth Breaker would be lighter than the Two Handed Version, and have less Hardness and HP.
No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."
—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 10/13/11
Now, this quote is telling you not to use the oversized weapon as a One Handed weapon as you would if it was Oversized. This firmly puts it into the class of Two Handed weapon, even though one can use it one handed when it is of regular size for the character.
Now, keep this in mind. There is a bit more space to explain the Jotungrip than there is to explain/put forth the rules for the Thunder and Fang feat. This ability even says "it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."
There are also the quotes that was posted about the Thunder and Fang feat specifically from the designers that have said that it does not allow for Dual Wielding or the wielding of an oversized Earth Breaker.
Really, how does the slight difference in the wording of the ability vs. the short sentence in the feat make for wildly different outcomes for allowances?
Sub Zero...
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13
I don't know, does "No" mean something different to you than it does to me?
Strawmaning. YOU know Titan Mauler says it must be same size in entry. Earthbreaker doesn't.
It has been pointed out that wording is different, that something about the overall ability does not mirror the one sentence phrase in the Thunder and Fang feat. The overall point is that there still is nothing here that supersedes the Size rules any more than this example here. The Earth Breaker doesn't shrink, it steadfastly stays the same weapon no matter the skill that the character has to wield it with. The mini stays on the same...
Yes, it is pointed out that the wording is different because it is.
It doesn't say that you can do it either, just that you have the ability to use a weapon a certain way. Jumping to sliding the scale of the Size disparity or dual wielding weapons when the feat does not say "You can wield two Earth breakers, one in each hand" or "You can wield an oversized Earth Breaker (in two hands)" is, at best, selective reading of the rules or, at worst, ignoring complete sentences and cherry picking phrases and ignoring "fluff."
Imagine that there exists a feat called "One-Handed Earth Breaker Wielding." The rules text of this feat consists of only the following:
"Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon."
This feat would allow you to dual-wield EBs, or two-hand an EB that is one size larger. Thunder and Fang adds a few additional abilities, and some restatement of the rules as they otherwise exist. It does not add any additional restrictions on how the EB can be wielded.
TaF was obviously written in order to allow the EB/klar TWF mode, and only that mode. As printed, it happens to allow the other modes. RAW and RAI are different things, and it is only the former that matters in PFS.
It doesn't say that you can do it either, just that you have the ability to use a weapon a certain way. Jumping to sliding the scale of the Size disparity or dual wielding weapons when the feat does not say "You can wield two Earth breakers, one in each hand" or "You can wield an oversized Earth Breaker (in two hands)" is, at best, selective reading of the rules or, at worst, ignoring complete sentences and cherry picking phrases and ignoring "fluff."Imagine that there exists a feat called "One-Handed Earth Breaker Wielding." The rules text of this feat consists of only the following:
"Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon."
This feat would allow you to dual-wield EBs, or two-hand an EB that is one size larger. Thunder and Fang adds a few additional abilities, and some restatement of the rules as they otherwise exist. It does not add any additional restrictions on how the EB can be wielded.
TaF was obviously written in order to allow the EB/klar TWF mode, and only that mode. As printed, it happens to allow the other modes. RAW and RAI are different things, and it is only the former that matters in PFS.
The text you copied for your homebrew feat was copied directly from the Thunder and Fang Feat.
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It doesn't say that you can do it either, just that you have the ability to use a weapon a certain way. Jumping to sliding the scale of the Size disparity or dual wielding weapons when the feat does not say "You can wield two Earth breakers, one in each hand" or "You can wield an oversized Earth Breaker (in two hands)" is, at best, selective reading of the rules or, at worst, ignoring complete sentences and cherry picking phrases and ignoring "fluff."Imagine that there exists a feat called "One-Handed Earth Breaker Wielding." The rules text of this feat consists of only the following:
"Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon."
This feat would allow you to dual-wield EBs, or two-hand an EB that is one size larger. Thunder and Fang adds a few additional abilities, and some restatement of the rules as they otherwise exist. It does not add any additional restrictions on how the EB can be wielded.
TaF was obviously written in order to allow the EB/klar TWF mode, and only that mode. As printed, it happens to allow the other modes. RAW and RAI are different things, and it is only the former that matters in PFS.
Does it say it turns the Earth Breaker into a one handed weapon, or merely using it as one?
The size and scope of the weapon doesn't change. The five squares I have set up doesn't look at how the character wields it, be it an Earth Breaker in one hand or a Long Sword in two. The mini stays on the respective square for the weapons of their size despite how it is held and wielded. Normally, a light weapon doesn't confer any mechanical benefit from being wielded in Two Hands, it always counts as being wielded in the main hand.
A One Handed weapon can be use with two hands, being treated as a two handed weapon as far as Str mod damage and how to apply Power attack and other like statistics. It is, however, still a One Handed weapon.
An Earth Breaker can be wielded in One hand with this feat, being treated as such for purposes of str mod damage, how Power Attack is applied and other like statistics. It is, though, still a Two Handed weapon, just as the Long Sword has keep it's One Handed Designation.
Are you saying that because it is a feat that says it instead of being something everyone can do within the weapon rules that it somehow works differently than it did before?
That the Long Sword should have the rules changed, that there should be no light weapons at all?
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Sub Zero...
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13
I don't know, does "No" mean something different to you than it does to me?
Strawmaning. YOU know Titan Mauler says it must be same size in entry. Earthbreaker doesn't.
Yes, it is pointed out that the wording is different because it is.
It has been pointed out that wording is different, that something about the overall ability does not mirror the one sentence phrase in the Thunder and Fang feat. The overall point is that there still is nothing here that supersedes the Size rules any more than this example here. The Earth Breaker doesn't shrink, it steadfastly stays the same weapon no matter the skill that the character has to wield it with. The mini stays on the same...
OK.
Jotungrip is specifically calling out any Two Handed weapons and give a -2 penalty for wielding it. It specifies being appropriately sized.
Thunder and Fang has the Earth Breaker specifically mentioned, pairing it with the Klar. It is doing the same thing (One Handing a weapon normally used with Two Hands) but with different circumstances on what is needed to do the ability. One imparts a penalty, while the other specifies a particular weapon, paired with a particular shield. (If the whole feat is taken into account)
The result is the same. You are using a Two Handed weapon in One Hand.
This doesn't (or really should not) allow for the dual wielding of these weapons, nor for the use of an oversized Earth Breaker.
It is different. One is an ability whilst the other is a feat, a shorter format with a "fluff" line that encapsulates the purpose of the feat in the first line before the main feat explanation is proffered.
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Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13
Nothing about how you wield the weapon changes the inherent size and handedness of the weapon.
A medium sized EB will always be a medium sized EB no matter what.
Wield it in one hand, it's still a medium sized two-handed weapon.
Wield it it two hands, it's still a medium sized two-handed weapon.
Wield it with two hands and a tentacle, it's still a medium sized two-handed weapon.
Walk on your hands and wield it in both feet, it's still a medium sized two-handed weapon.
Now, show me any text anywhere in the rules for the Earthbreaker, the Thunder and Fang feat, or any FAQ anywhere that specifically gives you the ability to break the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule.
It does not matter one whit how many hands you use to wield it. Unless you have rules text that specifically exempts you from the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule on page 144 of the Core Rulebook, you cannot ever wield a two-handed weapon that is one size larger than you.
Edit:
P.S. I will point out, that while I believe it violates the intention of the feat, the current wording of Thunder and Fang would allow dual-wielding of appropriately sized Earth Breakers.
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Just to advise anyone new to the thread, Thax's position has been thoroughly and completely debunked early in this thread and he has persisted in an attempt to disseminate logically unfeasible information over the last several pages. Anyone looking for reasonable information on the subject should disregard anything he says.That's thaX.
It acts as a one handed weapon. It is still a Two Handed weapon being wielded as such. That is what I am saying.
Also want to advise anyone new to the thread that while Kazaan, bigdaddyjug, diminuendo and others will argue all day & night with thaX about whether or not someone with Thunder & Fang can wield and oversized Earthbreaker two handed, by RAW, none of them believe that the spirit of the rules (or intent of T&F) is to allow you to do this.
With that in mind you can decide who's being reasonable and who's being obtuse.
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Edit:
P.S. I will point out, that while I believe it violates the intention of the feat, the current wording of Thunder and Fang would allow dual-wielding of appropriately sized Earth Breakers.
As far as that is concerned, I would allow for the Dual Wielding of the Earth Breakers at my table, as it is an expense feat chain for very little gain and could be looked at as possible in a wonky kinda way.
Still beyond what the feat should provide, but that particular aspect isn't worth a rules lawyer debate in a game.
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The text you copied for your homebrew feat was copied directly from the Thunder and Fang Feat.
Well, yeah. That was the point.
Does it say it turns the Earth Breaker into a one handed weapon, or merely using it as one?It doesn't say that you can do it either, just that you have the ability to use a weapon a certain way. Jumping to sliding the scale of the Size disparity or dual wielding weapons when the feat does not say "You can wield two Earth breakers, one in each hand" or "You can wield an oversized Earth Breaker (in two hands)" is, at best, selective reading of the rules or, at worst, ignoring complete sentences and cherry picking phrases and ignoring "fluff."Imagine that there exists a feat called "One-Handed Earth Breaker Wielding." The rules text of this feat consists of only the following:
"Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon."
This feat would allow you to dual-wield EBs, or two-hand an EB that is one size larger. Thunder and Fang adds a few additional abilities, and some restatement of the rules as they otherwise exist. It does not add any additional restrictions on how the EB can be wielded.
TaF was obviously written in order to allow the EB/klar TWF mode, and only that mode. As printed, it happens to allow the other modes. RAW and RAI are different things, and it is only the former that matters in PFS.
For this purpose, those things are one and the same.
Using your mini example, TaF splits the five-square track into two separte tracks. One of them is titled, "Handedness for the purpose of wielding," and the other is titled, "Handedness for all other purposes." The mini starts in the one-handed square on the first track.
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Now, show me any text anywhere in the rules for the Earthbreaker, the Thunder and Fang feat, or any FAQ anywhere that specifically gives you the ability to break the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule.
It does not matter one whit how many hands you use to wield it. Unless you have rules text that specifically exempts you from the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule on page 144 of the Core Rulebook, you cannot ever wield a two-handed weapon that is one size larger than you.
<sniping text>
Both the Bastard Sword and the Redcap have specific text in either the rules or the FAQ modifying or exempting them from the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule.
From the Redcap stat block:
Heavy Weapons (Ex) A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty.
This is rules text exempting it from the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule.
The Bastard Sword is just a bastard. These are the two main FAQ entries for it:
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13
And
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/28/13
These two entries are not worded clearly, and the Bastard Sword shouldn't have been brought into this discussion due to the ease of confusion. It's a jumbled mess.
To boil it down:
The Bastard Sword is a One-Handed weapon if you have the Exotic Proficiency for it. This includes the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule, which would allow a proficient character to use a Large Bastard Sword, which would move it one step from One-Handed to Two-Handed.
If you do not have the proficiency, it is a Two-Handed Martial Weapon for all rules except for hardness, hitpoints, special materials, etc (which are calculated as a One-Handed weapon). As such, in regards to the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule, for a Medium sized character, a Large Bastard Sword would be one step beyond two-handed, and thus un-wieldable.
It must be that way otherwise it could be used as a one handed weapon with the -4 non-proficiency penalty and this is specifically called out as not allowed by the first FAQ entry.
Now, the Inappropriately Sized Weapons Rule:
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
I notice, you keep harping on the word effort. As you do so, you ignore the word designed. A Large Earth Breaker has been designed as a Two-Handed weapon for Large wielders. For a Medium sized wielder, it goes one step beyond Two-Handed and thus the creature can't wield the weapon at all. The effort is based on the difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. Thunder and Fang allows you to wield an Earth Breaker in in one hand, and the "Normal" text references how it would normally be a two handed weapon. Normally a Medium creature cannot wield a Large Earth Breaker period, nor would they be able to use a Medium sized Earth Breaker in one hand. Why do you think Thunder and Fang alters both circumstances, when it talks nothing of weapon size, and only of one handed and two handed?
Now, I've looked at Thunder and Fang and no where can I find any text regarding the size of the weapon unlike the text for Redcap and Bastard Sword. Am I blind? Where is the text stating that Thunder and Fang allows you to ignore the weapon's size.
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@Mog: I don't ignore the word designed; I just only use the term for the context it was intended rather than inventing fictitious meanings for it. Yes, the weapon is designed for a Large creature. So is a Large Bastard Sword. But the principals that allow you to wield the Bastard Sword sized properly for you in one hand translate to being able to wield one two-handed when sized up to Large. I see no good reason why it shouldn't work the other way. Did you read any of what I wrote or did you just rely on preconceived notions? The Bastard Sword is wielded as a two-handed weapon under certain circumstances. The Earthbreaker is wielded as a one-handed weapon under certain circumstances. Why, exactly, does the size-step for the Bastard Sword work on the "wielded as" size but in the case of the Earthbreaker, the "wielded as" size is disregarded in favor of the "real" size?
Regarding the Redcap, you missed the point entirely. Even if the Redcap has an ability that disregards the size step rule, the argument that you and Thax put forward is that regardless of what abilities you have, a two-handed weapon is a two-handed weapon and you can't wield a "too-big" too-handed weapon. If that were, indeed, the case, then the Redcap would not be able to wield a Medium two-handed weapon like the Scythe, regardless of its ability. The best it could do would be a Medium one-handed weapon which is still wielded one-handed because of the ability.
Wrong. The argument being put forward is that unless you have rules text contradicting the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule, than You CANNOT break that rule.
The Redcap's ability specifically contradicts the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule. Therefore the Redcap can use Inappropriately Sized Weapons. That has been what I've been saying all along. If the feat does not have text contradicting the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule, then you cannot use Inappropriately Sized Weapons.
The rules are not permissive, they are restrictive.
If the text does not say that you can then you cannot.
Text for the Redcap says they can break the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule.
Text for the Bastard Sword was written by Cthulhu, you lose 1 SAN.
Text for the Jotungrip ability for Titan Mauler Barbarians says you cannot break the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule.
There is nothing in the text of Thunder and Fang which allows you to use an inappropriately sized weapon. All it allows is the use of a normally two handed weapon in one hand. For a Medium Sized character, a Large Earth Breaker is one step beyond two handed and thusly unwieldable without text specifically allowing the use of oversized weapons.
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lets be honest, I quit reading the posts. I scan for jj, brock, or Compton(or people who can make a final decision) everyone else is running circles.
and what is Redcap anyways?
Redcap is a small fey from Bestiary 2.
And to be honest, at first that's what I was doing after the first few pages. Then I got a small bout of masochism and was compelled to rebut.
In regards to JJ, Brock, or Compton, in case you missed it, JJ chimed in here.
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For this purpose, those things are one and the same.
Using your mini example, TaF splits the five-square track into two separte tracks. One of them is titled, "Handedness for the purpose of wielding," and the other is titled, "Handedness for all other purposes." The mini starts in the one-handed square on the first track.
So you are putting in another scale specifically to dove tail around the other one? For what purpose?
There is only one scale, one set of boxes, one rule for size disparity. When that rule is superseded, it is mentioned in the relevant text that concerns the particular situation. There is nothing in this feat that even hints at being able to wield oversized weapons. It doesn't even mention oversized weapons at all.
You are reading more than what is actually there.
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OK, Kazaan, I have tried to read that post thrice, and the words are blurring together. Lets do a list.
- The Bastard Sword specifically mentions it's designation change according to skill within it's entry. It has no bearing on this issue. Please take this crutch and try to stand on this issue without it.
- Disregarding rules is what we are trying to have you stop doing. When something is unable to be done, trying to find a way around it such as this is not "following the rules."
- JJ (as you call him) isn't the only source we have proffered for this discussion, but every time we mention the various FAQ's, positions, and comments that designers have posted, they are being dismissed as not exactly the same or not really mattering because it was on a thread instead of something else. Or because JJ is not a "Rules Guy" even though the thread is titled "Ask James Jacobs" and he has put forth a FAQ from what was in that thread in the past.
- The Redcap, who can wield an oversized weapon, does so because of specifically being able to from the ability they have that supersedes the size rules. The normal weapon is a Med Scythe for a Sm creature. Thunder and Fang does not do this.
- The weapon in question is a Two Handed weapon. No where does it say that it ceases being such, and one can not wield an oversized Two Handed weapon.
So, when you keep saying the same thing over and over, I will copy and past this post.
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Wrong. The argument being put forward is that unless you have rules text contradicting the Inappropriately Sized Weapon Rule, than You CANNOT break that rule.
But you can, just follow the rules for inappropriate sized weapons (you're choosing to ignore the first step):
Step 1 (normal size rules are applied), you determine how the effort based upon the a medium sized character wielding that specific medium sized weapon. (first sentence)for determining size. In this example, a medium sized character would wield an EB in one hand, per the T&F feat. No changes in size, no inappropriate size rules are used...at all.
The weapon is medium sized.
Medium character = medium sized weapon used in only one hand.
It could be [ANY] weapon that can be used by the wielder in one hand that is medium sized, you determine the effort. The weapon type hasn't changed nor will it. All weapons automatically fall within the 3 categories. There is not a single medium sized weapon that is not in one of those categories for medium sized characters. Sizes must be equal for determining effort.
Again, this is under the determining weapon size rules...very simple.
THE EFFORT DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL THE BASE WEAPON SIZE
Step 2, you decide you want to change the size of the weapon. Only now (not before) does it fall under the inappropriate sized weapon rules. If it is large it is now one step up from your effort (step 1) and requires 2 hands. If it is small, it now counts as light (a step down). If it is Huge, it is unwield-able by the inappropriate weapon rules (last sentence) that are sepcifically listed for this determination. If it is tiny, it is unwield-able (again last sentence). Nothing else.
That's the print.
The weapon doesn't change it's base size.
You follow the steps in that order; effort first than changes in size *if* needed.
These also confirm the rules for the bastard sword.
A medium marshal weapon that requires two hands can't wield a large BS - due to the inappropriate sized weapon rules.
An exotic proficient character could wield a large BS because it's effort use is one handed and it is one step up.
Follow the rules.
Follow the text.
Follow the order.
Inappropriate is used after "appropriate size" is determined.
Discussion on feats, class abilities, magic weapon properties only apply to the first step in determining the effort to use.
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Step 1 (normal size rules are applied), You have a medium sized character wielding a medium sized weapon. (first sentence)for determining if the character can wield the weapon. In this example, a medium sized character would wield an EB, a two handed weapon,in one hand, per the T&F feat. No changes in size, no inappropriate size rules are used...at all.
The weapon is medium sized.
Medium character = Two handed weapon sized weapon used in only one hand.
It could be [ANY] weapon that can be used by the wielder in one hand that is medium sized, this feat allows for the Earth Breaker, a two handed weapon, to be used this way. The weapon type hasn't changed nor will it. All weapons are designated within the 3 categories. There is not a single medium sized weapon that is not in one of those categories for medium sized characters. the Size of the weapon must be compared to the size of the character for determining if it is able to be wielded.
Again, this is under the determining weapon size rules.
THE MEASURE OF EFFORT DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE BASE WEAPON SIZEStep 2, you decide that your character wants to use a different sized weapon. now one needs to look at the inappropriate sized weapon rules. If it is large it is now one step up from your effort (step 1) and becomes unwieldable. If it is small, it now counts as one handed (a step down). If it is Huge, it is also unwield-able by the inappropriate weapon rules (last sentence) that are specifically listed for this determination. If it is tiny, it is counted as a light weapon.
The weapon doesn't change it's designation.
Fixed.
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I was at a con all weekend with Mike Brock. I asked him about this question and he told me Kazaan and I are wrong. I'm fine with that because I never thought it was the intended outcome anyway.lets be honest, I quit reading the posts. I scan for jj, brock, or Compton(or people who can make a final decision) everyone else is running circles.
and what is Redcap anyways?
so brock said u cant dual wield EB's or u cant use a large eb or both?
