PFS - Thunder and Fang with 2 Earth Breakers


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Nevan Oaks wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Just because it's a special case doesn't mean the same principal doesn't logically apply to other similar cases.

Great my players will love to use your logic at my table, since the lance is a special case which allows it to be wielded in one hand when mounted all two-handed weapons can be wielded in one hand when mounted.

You cannot apply a rule for a special case to other cases.

With that I will also hold that this is not a similar case, since a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon and an earthbreaker is a two-handed weapon.

A bastard sword is only a one-handed weapon for people with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It is not a one handed weapon as much as a greatsword is a one handed weapon to a person without the exotic weapon proficiency feat. Along with any other exotic weapons with the same restrictions as a bastard sword, such as the Dwarven Waraxe.

You normally cannot wield a Bastard Sword in one hand, thus you can't wield a large Bastard Sword. You normally can't wield a Earthbreaker in one hand, thus you can't wield a large Earthbreaker.

Two feats allow these items to be wielded as a one handed weapon. What we have is a ruling that without feat, a bastard sword cannot be used as a one handed weapon. The only thing that [bold]DOESN'T[/bold] change are Hit Points, Hardness, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on. Both of these cases are of a similar nature. Handedness is entirely relative to the person using it.

What we have here is precedence, which allows us to apply similar logic to similar cases, which is in no way similar as allowing all two handed weapons to be wielded one handed while mounted. If there were a feat or ability or some such that said "all two handed weapons function like a lance while mounted", you would have a point. If we used your logic here, all two handed weapons would also deal double damage on a mounted charge and Spirited Charge would apply to all weapons for X3 damage, which we know isn't true.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Umbranus wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Alls I'm sayin is, the feat ain't called Thunder and Thunder (or Really Really Big Thunder, fer that matter).

That's alls I'm sayin...

As has been already said there are several feats whose names are different to what the beenefit is.

Sword and pistol: Can be used with handcrossbow + mace, too.
Belier's bite: Works with unarmed strikes, not with natural weapons. Bite would be a natural weapon.
Broken wing gambit: You can use that feat even if you don't have wings.
Horsemaster: Works for halflings on wolves, too. Not just horses.

Should I go on?

Naw, you sold me.

From now on, I'm arguing that Thunder and Fang should let you deal sonic damage, and have large sharp teeth!

Anything else is a violation of RAW!


Nevan Oaks wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Just because it's a special case doesn't mean the same principal doesn't logically apply to other similar cases.

Great my players will love to use your logic at my table, since the lance is a special case which allows it to be wielded in one hand when mounted all two-handed weapons can be wielded in one hand when mounted.

You cannot apply a rule for a special case to other cases.

With that I will also hold that this is not a similar case, since a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon and an earthbreaker is a two-handed weapon.

Logically was a key word there. You seem to have missed it. Other two-handed weapons don't have the same rules that apply to the Lance. But if one did, it would benefit from the same FAQ that addresses Lances still getting the bonuses of a two-handed weapon, such as from Power Attack. If a hypothetical weapon were introduced that said it could be wielded "in one hand" under certain circumstances (say, for the sake of example, while swimming). By the same logic from which we conclude that a Lance wielded "in one hand" is still a two-handed weapon and still gets 1.5x Str and 1.5x Power Attack, we could apply the same principal logically to this hypothetical weapon and say that, since it can be wielded "in one hand" while swimming, it also still counts as a 2-h weapon for Str, Power Attack, etc.

Logically, when the FAQ says that weapons wielded "as a one-handed weapon" count mechanically as if they were no longer their base handiness but instead as the handiness the ability tells you to use it, that same principal can apply in reverse, that when the Bastard Sword says "If you don't have EWP, you must wield it as a two-handed weapon", it counts, mechanically, as a two-handed weapon. Then, that state of two-handed is stepped up to "unwieldable" if it's one size too big for you, even though a one-handed weapon would normally be stepped up to just a two-handed weapon which you should still be able to wield (but the Devs have said no, you can't actually). Again, applying it logically going the other way, if the weapon is two-handed, and your feat says to treat it as a one-handed, it's the one-handed state that gets stepped up to two-handed. So, even though normally, without a feat that lets you, the Earthbreaker would go from 2-h to "unwieldable", since you're not treating it as a 2-h weapon anymore for wielding purposes, that's a non-issue.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I really hate the fact that the Bastard Sword got brought into this.

I am no fan of that FAQ.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Here is what your forgetting, or ignoring...

The bastard sword is made to be wielded in such a way that those with the knowledge can use it as such while those that simple know how to swing any ol' sword would need to adjust and use it with more sturdy grip and balance with the other hand.

The Earthbreaker is simply a big friken' hammer. It is made to squish things. However a character uses it, the BFH is still a BFH. A larger version, the Huge Ass Maul, is simply to darn big for one that normally wields the BFH.

This feat does not change that. The HAM is not usable by a medium dude that normally uses the BFH.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does the feat apply to Earthbreakers and Klars of inappropriate sizes?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

In what way?

My overall point is that the feat itself is not enough to be able to use the HAM.

The character can wield the BFH with one hand, I would assume that the Klar would be the same size category as the BFH at that point.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No.

First, you have decide if it applies at all, before you can decide how.

So, does Thunder and Fang apply to Earthbreakers and Klars of inappropriate sizes?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That would depend on whether or not you would be able to wield the weapons in question.

What exactly are you asking?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Exactly what I asked.


it doesn't say in the text that there is a size limitation, I dont see why not.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, if you use the smaller Earthbreaker, which is still a Nifty Heavy Sledgehammer (NHS) with the smaller Klar, using the NHS one handed is able to be done with or without the feat.

Using the larger Earthbreaker (HAM) isn't possible, so...


I'm treating a Large Earthbreaker as a One Handed Weapon...

Now what can Medium characters do with a Large One Handed Weapon?


Quote:

Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).

So yes the bastard sword/ dwarven waraxe ect. are one handed weapons.

Though they can only be used one handed with EWP.
THe earthbreaker is a two-handed weapon. the feat thunder and fang gives you the Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

Quote:

The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

Great RAW my one handed weapon is treated as a one handed weapon.

Quote:
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.

How does this compare to the earthbreaker, you get to treat a two-handed weapon as though it was one-handed. but with the large bastard sword we are treating a two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. It was not my logic but yours I was using, a lance and great sword are more in common then the comparison you are making with the bastard sword and earthbreaker.

Quote:

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/28/13


Quote:
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.

You know as written this FAQ does not make EWP bastard sword needed to wield a large bastard sword. A large (two-handed) bastard sword, can only be wielded two handed, (so is treated as two-handed when I wield it with 2 hands) which can be done with MWP.


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Nevan Oaks wrote:


You know as written this FAQ does not make EWP bastard sword needed to wield a large bastard sword. A large (two-handed) bastard sword, can only be wielded two handed, (so is treated as two-handed when I wield it with 2 hands) which can be done with MWP.

The Iconic Barbarian uses the Exotic Weapon proficiency to wield a large Bastard Sword, so it's interesting, since I followed your reasoning.


Again, a large bastard sword cannot be used by a medium creature without Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Medium Sized creature without Exotic Weapon Proficiency can A)Wield a medium sized bastard sword as a two-handed weapon, B)Use Shield of Swings, Punishing Assault, and various other feats that require a two-handed weapon, but hey! A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon! They shouldn't be able to do that! and finally C)Not wield a Bastard Sword in one hand at all, WHICH IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE CASE OF A THUNDER AND FANG USER WHO CAN USE A EARTHBREAKER AS A ONE HANDED WEAPON.

Feats can changed the Hands required to use a weapon, like Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword or Thunder and Fang. For characters with Thunder and Fang, a medium sized Earthbreaker is a one-handed weapon that still has the same HP, Hardness, craft DC, etc. as a two-handed weapon.

Quote:
So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.

A medium bastard sword wielded in two hands[a one-handed weapon], counts as a two-handed weapon. The Bastard Sword FAQ states so. A large bastard sword is ONLY A TWO HANDED WEAPON for a medium creature with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. For a medium creature without it, a large bastard sword is beyond a two-handed weapon, thus making it a weapon that cannot be wielded at all.

Quote:

So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.

You know as written this FAQ does not make EWP bastard sword needed to wield a large bastard sword. A large (two-handed) bastard sword, can only be wielded two handed, (so is treated as two-handed when I wield it with 2 hands) which can be done with MWP.

This is incorrect. My earlier post states that a bastard sword, for a character without Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a two-handed weapon. Here is the FAQ post again.

Quote:

Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?

No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)

Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Alls I'm sayin is, the feat ain't called Thunder and Thunder (or Really Really Big Thunder, fer that matter).

That's alls I'm sayin...

As has been already said there are several feats whose names are different to what the beenefit is.

Sword and pistol: Can be used with handcrossbow + mace, too.
Belier's bite: Works with unarmed strikes, not with natural weapons. Bite would be a natural weapon.
Broken wing gambit: You can use that feat even if you don't have wings.
Horsemaster: Works for halflings on wolves, too. Not just horses.

Should I go on?

Naw, you sold me.

From now on, I'm arguing that Thunder and Fang should let you deal sonic damage, and have large sharp teeth!

Anything else is a violation of RAW!

Very grown up way to react when you're proven wrong.

I just found examples for feats that do something else than what the name suggests. I did not ask for giving the feat stupid powers as you suggest. I even stated I'd disallow wielding a large earthbreaker with it. But your claim that it is called thunder and fang and thus can only apply using klar and earthbreaker is just wrong. And I gave support for my position. You instead just react inappropriate.


Pissy reactions like that derail the conversation, if you disagree there no need to get angry

When push comes to shove this game exists for enjoyment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Some people just enjoy ruining people's fun.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, the bastard sword can be used by character with the martial weapon proficency, but only with two hands. The exotice weapon proficency is needed to use it with only one hand.

Wording gets muddled with the thing, as one would only get to use a larger version if they have the EWP, even though the thing is still classified as a one handed weapon.

It has nothing to do with the Earthbreaker, though, as it does not have these exceptions. It is a two handed weapon, no matter how the character weilds the darn thing.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:


A medium bastard sword wielded in two hands[a one-handed weapon], counts as a two-handed weapon. The Bastard Sword FAQ states so. A large bastard sword is ONLY A TWO HANDED WEAPON for a medium creature with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. For a medium creature without it, a large bastard sword is beyond a two-handed weapon, thus making it a weapon that cannot be wielded at all.
No the FAQ states that:
Quote:
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

So with EWP and wielding in one hand a medium BS, it is treated as one handed.

Quote:
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

So, with or without EWP BS if a medium BS is wielded with two handes it is treated as a two-handed weapon.

With that the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
A large BS wielded in one hand is ?treated as a one-handed weapon when we wield it with one hand?

A large BS wielded in two hands is treated as large two-handed weapon and is unwieldable.
Since the handedness and not the feat determines how the weapon is treated even with EWP BS we cannot wield a Large BS because once we put 2 hands on it to wield it we must treat it as a large two-handed weapon, we can only treat it as a one-handed weapon when we use 1 hand.

And our poor Iconic Barbarian is SOL since by RAW she cannot wield her large BS.


Following that, if we read "treated as" as "is", we get:
a medium (one-handed)BS used one handede is one-handed
a medium (one-handed) BS used 2 handed is two-handed
a large (two-handed) BS used one handed is unwieldable
a large (two-handed) BS used 2 handed is two-handed

The EWP BS only allows for 1 handed use
Which still fit that a large (more than two-hands)earthbreaker is unwieldable.


thaX wrote:
It has nothing to do with the Earthbreaker, though, as it does not have these exceptions. It is a two handed weapon, no matter how the character weilds the darn thing.
Quote:
You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.

You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That doesn't change the weapon itself, it only changes how the character wields it. He is weilding a two handed weapon in one hand. You still can not two hand a larger version, as it still goes beyond the disignation of Two Handed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, is he wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand, or is he treating a two-handed weapon as an one-handed weapon?

There is an important difference.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, is he wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand, or is he treating a two-handed weapon as an one-handed weapon?

There is an important difference.

Wait, wha???

Both of those situations are different ways to say the same thing. Just because he "treats (weapon) as one-handed" doesn't change the weapon itself. It is still a two handed weapon.

Do you actually want the Damage Die to change?


No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.

Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.

And it does change the weapon itself, from exclusively the thunder and fang characters perspective. Specifically, it changes the weapon from two-handed to one-handed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
thaX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, is he wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand, or is he treating a two-handed weapon as an one-handed weapon?

There is an important difference.

Wait, wha???

Both of those situations are different ways to say the same thing. Just because he "treats (weapon) as one-handed" doesn't change the weapon itself. It is still a two handed weapon.

Do you actually want the Damage Die to change?

See this and this FAQ.

A Lance, is a two handed weapon that can be wielded in one hand, but still counts as a two handed weapon when done, because of this.
A Two handed weapon, treated as a one handed, because of a feat or ability, counts as One handed weapon.

So, there is a difference.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

See this and this FAQ.

A Lance, is a two handed weapon that can be wielded in one hand, but still counts as a two handed weapon when done, because of this.
A Two handed weapon, treated as a one handed, because of a feat or ability, counts as One handed weapon[b].

Where is the RAW or FAQ that supports this (above bold text).

Your first FAQ

Quote:

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?

If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), [b]treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13

This FAQ seems to apply to damage, nothing about weapon size.

Next FAQ

Quote:

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?

Yes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/24/13

This FAQ contardicts the first FAQ

when using a two-handed treated as one-handed Use two-handed power attackto damage, but the one above says that you only use one-handed which is correct?

Neither of these change a two-handed weapon into a one-handed weapon that I can see.


Bastard Sword Handedness thread where the bastard sword FAQ came from

Seriously, go read it.

And a two-handed weapon used as a one-handed weapon is different from a two-handed weapon used in one hand.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Diminuendo wrote:

No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.

Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.

So what? The next step is to do Colossal Earthbreaker in one hand as a Diminutive faerie?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah. I really did not like how that FAQ for the Bastard Sword turned out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:

No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.

Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.

So what? The next step is to do Colossal Earthbreaker in one hand as a Diminutive faerie?

No, he means a large one-handed weapon, which would be a two handed weapon for a medium creature.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You keep bringing out that FAQ and looking at other weapons that have exceptions for the normal rules. It does not say what you think it says.

When wielding a two handed weapon as a one handed one, you deal damage as the one handed weapon. That means that Power Attack only deals +3, Str mod is only 1x, other feats that up damage for two handing don't work, and other damage stuff.

It has nothing to do with the weapon's designation.

It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand.


James Risner wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:

No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.

Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.

So what? The next step is to do Colossal Earthbreaker in one hand as a Diminutive faerie?

no, I'm saying I am counting a Large Eathbreaker as a one handed large weapon on my medium character. Wielding this Large Earthbreaker takes two hands from my character, in the same way Amiri, the Iconic Barbarian wields her Bastard Sword. I can not wield a Huge Earthbreaker as that will step outside the two hands for the amount of effort that's required to wield it...

...Unless I roll the tieflings over-sized limbs Variant Ability (no.16), then I get to wield the Huge Earthbreaker of F*** that Guy...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes, it does.

Look, either it's a Two-handed weapon, wielded in one hand, and it gets a -1 to +3 damage from Power Attack, and a Two Handed Fighter can use it with Overhand Chop,

or

you treat all Earthbreakers as One-handed weapons, in which case, you treat a Large Earthbreaker as a Large One-handed weapon, and can be wielded by a medium creature in two hands.

So, which is it?


thaX wrote:
It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand.

you nearly got there, I fixed your statement:

It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand. That is treated as a one handed weapon for all intents and purposes.

I will repeat the first sentence of the Thunder and Fang Feat;

You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

In the hands of a character with Thunder and Fang an Earthbreaker is no less a one handed weapon than a longsword.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes, it does.

Look, either it's a Two-handed weapon, wielded in one hand, and it gets a -1 to +3 damage from Power Attack, and a Two Handed Fighter can use it with Overhand Chop,

or

you treat all Earthbreakers as One-handed weapons, in which case, you treat a Large Earthbreaker as a Large One-handed weapon, and can be wielded by a medium creature in two hands.

So, which is it?

If it's the first you can use Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with it too. You also get a +2 AC bonus for Orc Weapon Expertise-Defender.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:

Bastard Sword Handedness thread where the bastard sword FAQ came from

Seriously, go read it.

And a two-handed weapon used as a one-handed weapon is different from a two-handed weapon used in one hand.

Yes I'm sure it is full of great RAI, and as I know RAI is to allow, the large bs to only be wieldable two-handed with, EWP BS.

But This is the RAW forum not the house rule forum.
I have qouted the core rule book and the FAQ. Not one of you has shown any RAW that states EWP BS allows you to treat a BS as if it is a one-handed weapon. THe FAQ on the handedness, of a BS doesn't, the FAQ on if what STR or PA damage is used doesn't do it, the power atack FAq doesn't do it, and the core book doesn't do it.


PRD wrote:

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Waraxe, Dwarven: A dwarven waraxe has a large, ornate head mounted to a thick handle, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in one hand.

Both are one-handed weapons that can only be used one-handed with special training (EWP).

EWP BS wield a BS one handed, not as a one-haned weapon. as noted by CrystalSpellblade there is a difference.
A large creature can wield a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe one-handed as martial weapon.
A dwarf may treat a dwarven waraxe as a martial one-handed weapon.

we now have multipule ways to wield the one handed BS 1 handed, none of them say as one handed because it is already a one-handed weapon.

There is an "as a" portion to these weapons, A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon

So, now my one-handed weapon is treated as a martial two-handed weapon.
this is a far cry from two-handed treated as one


the BS FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rb5does not change EWP BS so that a two-hand weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon.

from FAQ wrote:
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
This says that a BS is a one-handed weapon when wielded with 1 hand, and a two-handed weapon when wielded with 2 hands.
Quote:


There is no treated as line here either.
The only mention of EWP are, [qoute]For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

This does not mention two-handede being used as one-handed.

Quote:
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.[/b]

There is no two-handed treated as one-handed here either, and in fact says that if I use 2 hands I must treat it as a two-handed weapon. This means that by RAW a large BS just like a large greatsword is unwieldable (They are both large two-handed weapon).


Nevan Oaks wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:

Bastard Sword Handedness thread where the bastard sword FAQ came from

Seriously, go read it.

And a two-handed weapon used as a one-handed weapon is different from a two-handed weapon used in one hand.

Yes I'm sure it is full of great RAI, and as I know RAI is to allow, the large bs to only be wieldable two-handed with, EWP BS.

But This is the RAW forum not the house rule forum.
I have qouted the core rule book and the FAQ. Not one of you has shown any RAW that states EWP BS allows you to treat a BS as if it is a one-handed weapon. THe FAQ on the handedness, of a BS doesn't, the FAQ on if what STR or PA damage is used doesn't do it, the power atack FAq doesn't do it, and the core book doesn't do it.

Did you mean to say two-handed weapon? Because the Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon; just one with a special caveat that you can't wield it one-handed unless you have the EWP feat and, if lacking that feat, you treat it as a two-handed weapon. So I'll go on the presumption that you meant neither the rules nor the FAQs say that you treat it as a two-handed weapon. Which is objectively incorrect. The rules state you can wield it two-handed (not "in two hands") as a martial weapon. It may be a little bit clumsy, but as SKR said, there were far more important things to focus on at the time, like entire classes, and they didn't want to waste time clarifying a single niche item. They also didn't want to go back and change it in such a way that made later printings of the CRB drastically different (ie. moving it from the 1-h Exotic list to the 2-h Martial list). So, via FAQ, they clarified what "Characters may wield it two-handed as a martial weapon" means. What it means is the same general rule that applies to all "wield as a <handiness category> weapon" and which is explicitly called out as different from "wield in <number of hands> hands". The critical point is that the relevant phrase is some variant of "one-handed weapon". That can be abbreviated many different ways: Wielded one-handed, wielded as a one-handed weapon, treated as a one-handed weapon, so on and so forth. The meaty portion is the one-hand(ed) part. That contrasts sharply with "in one hand".

Moreover...

James Jacobs wrote:

As folks have noted, our iconic barbarian Amiri does this exact thing; she uses a Large bastard sword she got from a dead giant as her primary weapon. The ONLY way that she can wield such a weapon is by using it two-handed as an exotic weapon—thus, she has to have the Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) feat, and even then suffers a –2 penalty to attack rolls with it. Part of her story flavor is that she "can only properly wield the sword when she's raging" (as in, the +2 bonus to hit she gets cancels out her –2 penalty for wielding an oversized weapon).

If she didn't have the Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) feat, she can only use the weapon as a two handed weapon. Medium creatures simply cannot properly wield Large two handed weapons, so without the feat, she could CARRRY the sword but she couldn't use it. Best case scenario, I'd let a player who didn't have Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) use a Large bastard sword as a big improvised weapon that dealt like 1d6 damage and had a normal threat range.

If you want your character to use a Large bastard sword as a bastard sword and not a cumbersome improvised weapon in the same way you might wield a sofa or a dinner table, and you're playing in a home game, talk to your GM for final ruling.

If you're playing in the Pathfinder Society org play campaign, you need Exotic Weapon (bastard sword) as a feat to use it.

She needs EWP to wield it because, despite being a one-handed weapon, without EWP it would be mechanically treated as if it were a two-handed weapon and, sized up, that means it becomes unwieldable. In other words, as SKR put it...

SKR wrote:

The FAQs don't contradict. If you still can't understand how this works, don't play a character who uses a bastard sword.

To end this pointless bickering, I'm closing the thread.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Let's not bring up the bastard sword anymore.

Please.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Umbranus wrote:


Very grown up way to react when you're proven wrong.
I just found examples for feats that do something else than what the name suggests. I did not ask for giving the feat stupid powers as you suggest. I even stated I'd disallow wielding a large earthbreaker with it. But your claim that it is called thunder and fang and thus can only apply using klar and earthbreaker is just wrong. And I gave support for my position. You instead just react inappropriate.

I think I've maintained a pretty consistent tone of "not taking this subject very seriously" :) I'm sorry if that's upset you.

Your examples were of feats that don't do literally what the name says they do--eg Broken Wing Gambit doesn't require a wing. By the same logic, if we were talking about another feat, you might quote Thunder and Fang at me for not having anything to do with thunder and/or fangs.

There's a difference between having a feat do something that doesn't fit with it's name (or for that matter, it's prerequisites, the entirety of the established world lore, and the words of the creative director on the matter) and a feat not doing exactly what it says on the tin.

Sword and Pistol may not limit you specifically to swords and pistols, but it's a feat that helps you shooty shooty swing swing. When Sword and Pistol gives you bonuses with two-handed axes, come talk to me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Here is the very basic. The Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon that needs to be wielded as a two handed weapon without specific training. That is what the rules are trying to do. It isn't a Great sword, it isn't a longsword, it is something inbetween, a bastard sword.

Get it?

Forget the bastard sword for a moment.

Ok?

The Earthbreaker is wielded. Doesn't matter how, just that a character uses it to deal damage.

The Earthbreaker is, first and foremost, a two handed weapon. That a feat/class ability allows one to use it in one hand ("as a one handed weapon) does not change that. The only thing that changes is the damage that is dealt, it is only 1.0 times (Being in One Hand) the Str Mod, and the other damage mods adjust accordingly. That is what is being treated as "One Handed" is about. If you have a larger EB for the character, he can't wield it, it goes beyond Two Handed, even if the character can wield a normal sized one in one hand.

Now, going back to the bastard sword. It is an exception to a rule, it say so right in the book. Using it as a precedence on a loop hole rule to get an auto lead blades on a weapon is...

Well, we all know why a bigger weapon is wanted. It has nothing to do with character building.


@haX

PRD wrote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

The "two-handed" designation on the Earthbreaker and other two-handed weapons is a standard to tell you what kind of weapon to consider it as. A Greatsword is a two-handed weapon and you consider it a two-handed weapon when you wield one sized appropriately for you. But if you have an ability that says to treat it as some other designation, specific trumps general. It's no longer considered a two-handed weapon for the purpose of wielding, even though it's a two-handed weapon for the purpose of physical properties (HP, cost to make from special materials, etc). Size Stepup refers, explicitly, to the effort required to wield.

PRD wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

It's the measure of effort that changes when you use an inappropriately sized weapon, not the base category the weapon is designated as by default. A Greatsword is a two-handed weapon. By default, it is wielded as a two-handed weapon. A Small Greatsword is wielded as a one-handed weapon. That means it is no longer considered a two-handed weapon; it's considered a one-handed weapon, though it still has the stats of a small two-handed weapon. It can no longer be used for Shield of Swings, Pushing Assault, Overhand Chop, etc. because, while it is a Small Greatsword, it's being used by a Medium wielder. Likewise, if a Medium wielder is using a Large Longsword, it is considered a two-handed weapon in all ways. It can be used for Pushing Assault, Shield of Swings, Overhand Chop, etc.

An Earthbreaker is a two-handed weapon. It normally requires a two-handed measure of effort to wield. But Thunder and Fang changes the measure of effort required to consider it a one-handed weapon. That is all-encompassing; it no longer counts as a two-handed weapon for Pushing Assault, Shield of Swings, Overhand Chop, Power Attack, etc. However, it now counts as a one-handed weapon so anything you can do that's restricted to using a one-handed weapon, you can do with an Earthbreaker wielded one-handed via Thunder and Fang. A Magus can wield one for Spell Combat (normally restricted to a "light or one-handed weapon"). A Two-Weapon Warrior can use his Improved/Perfect Balance class ability and wield the Earthbreaker even in his off-hand but only take -2/-2 penalties instead of -4/-4. So on and so forth. There is absolutely zero mechanical difference between a character wielding a Large Longsword and a character with Thunder and Fang wielding a Large Earthbreaker because both weapons, when properly sized for the wielder, are wielded as one-handed weapons; they are treated as two-handed weapons when scaled up.

Also, ad hominem attacks are generally frowned on in a logical debate. Don't embarrass yourself further.


thaX wrote:

The Earthbreaker is wielded. Doesn't matter how, just that a character uses it to deal damage.

The Earthbreaker is, first and foremost, a two handed weapon. That a feat/class ability allows one to use it in one hand ("as a one handed weapon) does not change that. The only thing that changes is the damage that is dealt, it is only 1.0 times (Being in One Hand) the Str Mod, and the other damage mods adjust accordingly. That is what is being treated as "One Handed" is about. If you have a larger EB for the character, he can't wield it, it goes beyond Two Handed, even if the character can wield a normal sized one in one hand.

Your right, the feat does say that the Earthbreaker only counts as one handed for the sake of Strength modifier and hands needed to wield...

OH WAIT!-

Thats a very nice house rule you have made there, but the feat says "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." no ifs, no buts. It says I can use an Earthbreaker as a one handed weapon. It is a flat alteration to how the character treats the Earthbreaker. The feats text never says "You can wield an Earthbreaker in one hand without penalty, the weapon still counts as a Two handed weapon. you may only apply 1x your strength modifier to attacks made while wielding the Earthbreaker in one hand."

None have yet to respond to the fact that, if it truly IS a two handed Earthbreaker in one hand then you can use the feats and features Overhand Chop, Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with only one hand. I feel that is more game breaking than having the Earthbreaker become a one handed weapon when wielded by a character with Thunder and Fang.

Using an Large Eathbreaker on a medium character provides the potential to do 2 points of damage more per attack than a character with a Large Bastard Sword (ignoring crits). You can argue people want to wield it to break the game, but in reality, you are wasting two feats to maybe to two extra damage on a turn

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Are we talking about 4th edition, or PF?

There are no Versatile weapons in PF.

The particular wielder you bolded is talking about how a weapon is sized to the person that is wielding it.

There is a difference between wielding a weapon that is made for you, sized for your particular build, and one that is made for one bigger than yourself.

The weapon actual size never changes. That a character can use his expertise to swing it around like a Longsword doesn't mean he can take a larger version and two hand the sucker.

See, I have what some call an active imagination. When I see the larger version trying to be swung by a character, I see a little man hugging a telephone pole with a big cement block on top. He barley has enough umph to do a downward strike, and grunts to lift it back up.

Treating it as a one handed weapon changes the way damage from Str and other means of damage output is done. For all that is being said, that is the overall point that the rules is trying to put forth. The weapon itself, though, is still a two handed weapon.

Wield two of them (even though the feat intent is otherwise), sure, knock yourself out.

But that larger one over there, it is just to big, no matter how you wield it.


An when I wield two of them you are fine from me to use Overhand Chop, Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with each hand?

I don't care how creative you think you are, it has nothing to do with the rules as written. (having fiction limited by real world rule is the exact opposite to imaginative in my opinion, especially in a world with wizards dragons and elfs)

And you are right, the weapons actual size never does change. The character does, and when the character does he treats the weapon as though it were a one handed weapon. So whilst the weapon doesn't change, in the characters hands, it is no longer a two handed weapon.

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