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Just because it's a special case doesn't mean the same principal doesn't logically apply to other similar cases.Great my players will love to use your logic at my table, since the lance is a special case which allows it to be wielded in one hand when mounted all two-handed weapons can be wielded in one hand when mounted.
You cannot apply a rule for a special case to other cases.
With that I will also hold that this is not a similar case, since a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon and an earthbreaker is a two-handed weapon.
A bastard sword is only a one-handed weapon for people with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It is not a one handed weapon as much as a greatsword is a one handed weapon to a person without the exotic weapon proficiency feat. Along with any other exotic weapons with the same restrictions as a bastard sword, such as the Dwarven Waraxe.
You normally cannot wield a Bastard Sword in one hand, thus you can't wield a large Bastard Sword. You normally can't wield a Earthbreaker in one hand, thus you can't wield a large Earthbreaker.
Two feats allow these items to be wielded as a one handed weapon. What we have is a ruling that without feat, a bastard sword cannot be used as a one handed weapon. The only thing that [bold]DOESN'T[/bold] change are Hit Points, Hardness, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on. Both of these cases are of a similar nature. Handedness is entirely relative to the person using it.
What we have here is precedence, which allows us to apply similar logic to similar cases, which is in no way similar as allowing all two handed weapons to be wielded one handed while mounted. If there were a feat or ability or some such that said "all two handed weapons function like a lance while mounted", you would have a point. If we used your logic here, all two handed weapons would also deal double damage on a mounted charge and Spirited Charge would apply to all weapons for X3 damage, which we know isn't true.
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Alls I'm sayin is, the feat ain't called Thunder and Thunder (or Really Really Big Thunder, fer that matter).
That's alls I'm sayin...
As has been already said there are several feats whose names are different to what the beenefit is.
Sword and pistol: Can be used with handcrossbow + mace, too.
Belier's bite: Works with unarmed strikes, not with natural weapons. Bite would be a natural weapon.
Broken wing gambit: You can use that feat even if you don't have wings.
Horsemaster: Works for halflings on wolves, too. Not just horses.Should I go on?
Naw, you sold me.
From now on, I'm arguing that Thunder and Fang should let you deal sonic damage, and have large sharp teeth!
Anything else is a violation of RAW!
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Here is what your forgetting, or ignoring...
The bastard sword is made to be wielded in such a way that those with the knowledge can use it as such while those that simple know how to swing any ol' sword would need to adjust and use it with more sturdy grip and balance with the other hand.
The Earthbreaker is simply a big friken' hammer. It is made to squish things. However a character uses it, the BFH is still a BFH. A larger version, the Huge Ass Maul, is simply to darn big for one that normally wields the BFH.
This feat does not change that. The HAM is not usable by a medium dude that normally uses the BFH.
it doesn't say in the text that there is a size limitation, I dont see why not.
I'm treating a Large Earthbreaker as a One Handed Weapon...
Now what can Medium characters do with a Large One Handed Weapon?
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You know as written this FAQ does not make EWP bastard sword needed to wield a large bastard sword. A large (two-handed) bastard sword, can only be wielded two handed, (so is treated as two-handed when I wield it with 2 hands) which can be done with MWP.
The Iconic Barbarian uses the Exotic Weapon proficiency to wield a large Bastard Sword, so it's interesting, since I followed your reasoning.
Again, a large bastard sword cannot be used by a medium creature without Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Medium Sized creature without Exotic Weapon Proficiency can A)Wield a medium sized bastard sword as a two-handed weapon, B)Use Shield of Swings, Punishing Assault, and various other feats that require a two-handed weapon, but hey! A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon! They shouldn't be able to do that! and finally C)Not wield a Bastard Sword in one hand at all, WHICH IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE CASE OF A THUNDER AND FANG USER WHO CAN USE A EARTHBREAKER AS A ONE HANDED WEAPON.
Feats can changed the Hands required to use a weapon, like Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword or Thunder and Fang. For characters with Thunder and Fang, a medium sized Earthbreaker is a one-handed weapon that still has the same HP, Hardness, craft DC, etc. as a two-handed weapon.
So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.
A medium bastard sword wielded in two hands[a one-handed weapon], counts as a two-handed weapon. The Bastard Sword FAQ states so. A large bastard sword is ONLY A TWO HANDED WEAPON for a medium creature with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. For a medium creature without it, a large bastard sword is beyond a two-handed weapon, thus making it a weapon that cannot be wielded at all.
So we have a large bastard sword (two-handed weapon), which is treated as a two-handed weapon when I wield it with two hands. Again RAW, even without this FAQ.
You know as written this FAQ does not make EWP bastard sword needed to wield a large bastard sword. A large (two-handed) bastard sword, can only be wielded two handed, (so is treated as two-handed when I wield it with 2 hands) which can be done with MWP.
This is incorrect. My earlier post states that a bastard sword, for a character without Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a two-handed weapon. Here is the FAQ post again.
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13
Alls I'm sayin is, the feat ain't called Thunder and Thunder (or Really Really Big Thunder, fer that matter).
That's alls I'm sayin...
As has been already said there are several feats whose names are different to what the beenefit is.
Sword and pistol: Can be used with handcrossbow + mace, too.
Belier's bite: Works with unarmed strikes, not with natural weapons. Bite would be a natural weapon.
Broken wing gambit: You can use that feat even if you don't have wings.
Horsemaster: Works for halflings on wolves, too. Not just horses.Should I go on?
Naw, you sold me.
From now on, I'm arguing that Thunder and Fang should let you deal sonic damage, and have large sharp teeth!
Anything else is a violation of RAW!
Very grown up way to react when you're proven wrong.
I just found examples for feats that do something else than what the name suggests. I did not ask for giving the feat stupid powers as you suggest. I even stated I'd disallow wielding a large earthbreaker with it. But your claim that it is called thunder and fang and thus can only apply using klar and earthbreaker is just wrong. And I gave support for my position. You instead just react inappropriate.
Pissy reactions like that derail the conversation, if you disagree there no need to get angry
When push comes to shove this game exists for enjoyment.
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Yes, the bastard sword can be used by character with the martial weapon proficency, but only with two hands. The exotice weapon proficency is needed to use it with only one hand.
Wording gets muddled with the thing, as one would only get to use a larger version if they have the EWP, even though the thing is still classified as a one handed weapon.
It has nothing to do with the Earthbreaker, though, as it does not have these exceptions. It is a two handed weapon, no matter how the character weilds the darn thing.
It has nothing to do with the Earthbreaker, though, as it does not have these exceptions. It is a two handed weapon, no matter how the character weilds the darn thing.
You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
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Well, is he wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand, or is he treating a two-handed weapon as an one-handed weapon?
There is an important difference.
Wait, wha???
Both of those situations are different ways to say the same thing. Just because he "treats (weapon) as one-handed" doesn't change the weapon itself. It is still a two handed weapon.
Do you actually want the Damage Die to change?
No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.
Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.
And it does change the weapon itself, from exclusively the thunder and fang characters perspective. Specifically, it changes the weapon from two-handed to one-handed.
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Well, is he wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand, or is he treating a two-handed weapon as an one-handed weapon?
There is an important difference.
Wait, wha???
Both of those situations are different ways to say the same thing. Just because he "treats (weapon) as one-handed" doesn't change the weapon itself. It is still a two handed weapon.
Do you actually want the Damage Die to change?
A Lance, is a two handed weapon that can be wielded in one hand, but still counts as a two handed weapon when done, because of this.
A Two handed weapon, treated as a one handed, because of a feat or ability, counts as One handed weapon.
So, there is a difference.
Bastard Sword Handedness thread where the bastard sword FAQ came from
Seriously, go read it.
And a two-handed weapon used as a one-handed weapon is different from a two-handed weapon used in one hand.
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No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.
Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.
So what? The next step is to do Colossal Earthbreaker in one hand as a Diminutive faerie?
No, he means a large one-handed weapon, which would be a two handed weapon for a medium creature.
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You keep bringing out that FAQ and looking at other weapons that have exceptions for the normal rules. It does not say what you think it says.
When wielding a two handed weapon as a one handed one, you deal damage as the one handed weapon. That means that Power Attack only deals +3, Str mod is only 1x, other feats that up damage for two handing don't work, and other damage stuff.
It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand.
No, I can wield it, I am treating the Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon.
Nowhere in the text is a size limitation for the feat.
So what? The next step is to do Colossal Earthbreaker in one hand as a Diminutive faerie?
no, I'm saying I am counting a Large Eathbreaker as a one handed large weapon on my medium character. Wielding this Large Earthbreaker takes two hands from my character, in the same way Amiri, the Iconic Barbarian wields her Bastard Sword. I can not wield a Huge Earthbreaker as that will step outside the two hands for the amount of effort that's required to wield it...
...Unless I roll the tieflings over-sized limbs Variant Ability (no.16), then I get to wield the Huge Earthbreaker of F*** that Guy...
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Yes, it does.
Look, either it's a Two-handed weapon, wielded in one hand, and it gets a -1 to +3 damage from Power Attack, and a Two Handed Fighter can use it with Overhand Chop,
or
you treat all Earthbreakers as One-handed weapons, in which case, you treat a Large Earthbreaker as a Large One-handed weapon, and can be wielded by a medium creature in two hands.
So, which is it?
It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand.
you nearly got there, I fixed your statement:
It is still a two handed weapon, used in one hand. That is treated as a one handed weapon for all intents and purposes.
I will repeat the first sentence of the Thunder and Fang Feat;
In the hands of a character with Thunder and Fang an Earthbreaker is no less a one handed weapon than a longsword.
Yes, it does.
Look, either it's a Two-handed weapon, wielded in one hand, and it gets a -1 to +3 damage from Power Attack, and a Two Handed Fighter can use it with Overhand Chop,
or
you treat all Earthbreakers as One-handed weapons, in which case, you treat a Large Earthbreaker as a Large One-handed weapon, and can be wielded by a medium creature in two hands.
So, which is it?
If it's the first you can use Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with it too. You also get a +2 AC bonus for Orc Weapon Expertise-Defender.
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Very grown up way to react when you're proven wrong.
I just found examples for feats that do something else than what the name suggests. I did not ask for giving the feat stupid powers as you suggest. I even stated I'd disallow wielding a large earthbreaker with it. But your claim that it is called thunder and fang and thus can only apply using klar and earthbreaker is just wrong. And I gave support for my position. You instead just react inappropriate.
I think I've maintained a pretty consistent tone of "not taking this subject very seriously" :) I'm sorry if that's upset you.
Your examples were of feats that don't do literally what the name says they do--eg Broken Wing Gambit doesn't require a wing. By the same logic, if we were talking about another feat, you might quote Thunder and Fang at me for not having anything to do with thunder and/or fangs.
There's a difference between having a feat do something that doesn't fit with it's name (or for that matter, it's prerequisites, the entirety of the established world lore, and the words of the creative director on the matter) and a feat not doing exactly what it says on the tin.
Sword and Pistol may not limit you specifically to swords and pistols, but it's a feat that helps you shooty shooty swing swing. When Sword and Pistol gives you bonuses with two-handed axes, come talk to me.
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Here is the very basic. The Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon that needs to be wielded as a two handed weapon without specific training. That is what the rules are trying to do. It isn't a Great sword, it isn't a longsword, it is something inbetween, a bastard sword.
Get it?
Forget the bastard sword for a moment.
Ok?
The Earthbreaker is wielded. Doesn't matter how, just that a character uses it to deal damage.
The Earthbreaker is, first and foremost, a two handed weapon. That a feat/class ability allows one to use it in one hand ("as a one handed weapon) does not change that. The only thing that changes is the damage that is dealt, it is only 1.0 times (Being in One Hand) the Str Mod, and the other damage mods adjust accordingly. That is what is being treated as "One Handed" is about. If you have a larger EB for the character, he can't wield it, it goes beyond Two Handed, even if the character can wield a normal sized one in one hand.
Now, going back to the bastard sword. It is an exception to a rule, it say so right in the book. Using it as a precedence on a loop hole rule to get an auto lead blades on a weapon is...
Well, we all know why a bigger weapon is wanted. It has nothing to do with character building.
The Earthbreaker is wielded. Doesn't matter how, just that a character uses it to deal damage.
The Earthbreaker is, first and foremost, a two handed weapon. That a feat/class ability allows one to use it in one hand ("as a one handed weapon) does not change that. The only thing that changes is the damage that is dealt, it is only 1.0 times (Being in One Hand) the Str Mod, and the other damage mods adjust accordingly. That is what is being treated as "One Handed" is about. If you have a larger EB for the character, he can't wield it, it goes beyond Two Handed, even if the character can wield a normal sized one in one hand.
Your right, the feat does say that the Earthbreaker only counts as one handed for the sake of Strength modifier and hands needed to wield...
Thats a very nice house rule you have made there, but the feat says "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." no ifs, no buts. It says I can use an Earthbreaker as a one handed weapon. It is a flat alteration to how the character treats the Earthbreaker. The feats text never says "You can wield an Earthbreaker in one hand without penalty, the weapon still counts as a Two handed weapon. you may only apply 1x your strength modifier to attacks made while wielding the Earthbreaker in one hand."
None have yet to respond to the fact that, if it truly IS a two handed Earthbreaker in one hand then you can use the feats and features Overhand Chop, Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with only one hand. I feel that is more game breaking than having the Earthbreaker become a one handed weapon when wielded by a character with Thunder and Fang.
Using an Large Eathbreaker on a medium character provides the potential to do 2 points of damage more per attack than a character with a Large Bastard Sword (ignoring crits). You can argue people want to wield it to break the game, but in reality, you are wasting two feats to maybe to two extra damage on a turn
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Are we talking about 4th edition, or PF?
There are no Versatile weapons in PF.
The particular wielder you bolded is talking about how a weapon is sized to the person that is wielding it.
There is a difference between wielding a weapon that is made for you, sized for your particular build, and one that is made for one bigger than yourself.
The weapon actual size never changes. That a character can use his expertise to swing it around like a Longsword doesn't mean he can take a larger version and two hand the sucker.
See, I have what some call an active imagination. When I see the larger version trying to be swung by a character, I see a little man hugging a telephone pole with a big cement block on top. He barley has enough umph to do a downward strike, and grunts to lift it back up.
Treating it as a one handed weapon changes the way damage from Str and other means of damage output is done. For all that is being said, that is the overall point that the rules is trying to put forth. The weapon itself, though, is still a two handed weapon.
Wield two of them (even though the feat intent is otherwise), sure, knock yourself out.
But that larger one over there, it is just to big, no matter how you wield it.
An when I wield two of them you are fine from me to use Overhand Chop, Shield of Swings and Furious Focus with each hand?
I don't care how creative you think you are, it has nothing to do with the rules as written. (having fiction limited by real world rule is the exact opposite to imaginative in my opinion, especially in a world with wizards dragons and elfs)
And you are right, the weapons actual size never does change. The character does, and when the character does he treats the weapon as though it were a one handed weapon. So whilst the weapon doesn't change, in the characters hands, it is no longer a two handed weapon.