PFS - Thunder and Fang with 2 Earth Breakers


Rules Questions

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thaX wrote:

So you go on from there even though the feat mentions nothing about the size of the weapon. Because a feat doesn't have a particular phrase that another put in that means to take advantage of a "loop hole" to the player's boon? Really?

You can use an Earthbreaker one handed. Cool, allows for the Klar in the other hand, or another light or one handed weapon. What it doesn't say is anything about using your new-found wielding technique to try and wield another weapon that is made for a creature a size over what your character is.

Please keep the Bastard Sword out of this. It is an exotic weapon with a caveat that martial proficiency can make use of two handed. It is not, nor will it ever be, an Earthbreaker.

No. I'm absolutely not going to keep an entirely valid example for parity and consistency of rules out of the discussion. You know what else mentions nothing about the size of the weapon? The Bastard Sword. It says you must wield it as a two-handed weapon if you lack EWP. A Large One-Handed weapon is a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. So the weapon requires you to wield it as a two-handed weapon, never mentions anything about relative size, and a Large one must also be wielded as a two-handed weapon. So you're essentially claiming that it takes exactly the same effort to wield a Medium Bastard Sword two-handed as it takes to wield a Large Bastard Sword two-handed. If you're not, then you admit that, even though it doesn't specify size relation, you use the standard rules that you change whatever effort is needed to wield a weapon of your size up by one step for that weapon one size bigger.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You must be able to wield the one handed weapon as such to wield an oversized one. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency allows one to wield it proper.

You can wield an Earthbreaker one handed vs. you must use the Bastard Sword in two hands. The Earthbreaker still is a Two Handed Weapon, that never changes.

I know, you keep seeing the word "effort" in the size rules and take it to mean something that it is not.

Did you read the previous paragraph. The size of the weapon is a measure of effort one has to wield it. That some ability gives the character a different way to wield the weapon, it does not change the size of the weapon nor the size of the character. That is what is compared to see if a weapon is unwieldy, not how the character uses it.

The Bastard sword is an exception to that because of it's exotic nature and that a martial trained can still make use of it (abit, two handed). You are confusing a weapon exception to the rules in general. Leave the Bastard Sword out of it, it had no bearing on the issue.


So why doesn't a Large Bastard Sword qualify for wielding the Bastard Sword two-handed? As a medium creature, you can only wield a Large Bastard Sword two-handed. As you say, size doesn't matter. So, while it takes a non-proficient wielder two hands worth of effort to wield a Medium Bastard Sword, that same effort can easily wield a large one twice the size because you are still "wielding it two-handed". It doesn't say you must wield a Bastard Sword appropriately sized as a two-handed weapon, does it? For that matter, I could consider any Bastard Sword a two-handed weapon because it doesn't specify size. Huge Bastard Sword? I'll wield it as a two-handed martial weapon. Gargantuan Bastard Sword? Two-handed martial weapon. Colossal Bastard Sword? Two-handed martial weapon. It's always a two-handed martial weapon for me regardless of size difference because it says I must wield it as a two-handed martial weapon. If the effective effort to wield the Earth Breaker using T&F doesn't factor into the size equation, then neither does the effective effort to wield the Bastard Sword. So, in that case, the Earth Breaker says you can wield it as a one-handed weapon. It doesn't matter whether it's a fine Earth Breaker or a colossal one; it's a one-handed weapon all around. You know, while we're being ridiculously pedantic.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then you can wield it proper. If your a tengu with Swordtrained, you can wield the thing proper, but the bastard sword is bigger than a longsword and shorter than the greatsword, so it has a specific circumstance that allows those with Martial weapon proficiency to wield it, though they do so Two Handed.

The Earthbreaker has no such quantifiers. There is no parallel between the two weapons. It isn't a valid comparison, as the Bastard Sword is an exception to the Size rules.

It is simple.

You have the size of the character. Medium.

You have the size of the weapon. Large.

You have the designations of those weapons. Light. One Handed. Two handed.

Light is two steps down, one handed is one step down, and Two handed is the same as the size of creature it is made for.

Large weapon vs. Medium creature takes the two handed weapon beyond the step of Two Handed. It makes a One Handed have to be wielded as a Two Handed. A Light weapon is considered one handed, and can be wielded either way.

A medium creature can not wield a large Earthbreaker. This feat does not change that.

Silver Crusade

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As it is worded now, it most certainly does change the way an earthbreaker is wielded and treated. I fully admit this is almost certainly unintention. However, the unintentionality does not prevent it from being so.


Where does Thunder and Fang make an earthbreaker not a one-handed weapon?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.


thaX wrote:

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.

Actually the FAQ said you should treat it as original size for Str/dam. So you get 2 handed bonus while one handed.


Diego Rossi wrote:
thaX wrote:

Ok.

Three things.

One. A medium character can not use a large two handed weapon, even if he can use a medium sized one "as a one handed weapon." It is, despite how the character can use it, a two handed weapon.

This. The ability don't change the size of the item, it allow you to use the normal version in one hand.

If your read it as "it change the size" and "RAW should be applied without question", it don't say "a normal sized earth breaker", it say "a earth breaker". So go on and wield your gargantuan earth breaker in one hand. It is a Earth breaker and as such it can be wielded in one hand if you have the feat.

No, because a gargantuan one handed weapon is too big for a medium character. This feat doesnt change the weapons size, it cuanges the hardiness designation


thaX wrote:

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.

What are you talking about? Character size vs. weapon size has nothing to do with it. A earthbreaker for a person with Thunder and Fang is a one-handed weapon. If it was a two handed weapon, I would get 1.5X Str and Power Attack. A two-handed weapon wielded in one hand is different than a two-handed weapon used as a one handed weapon.

Quote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed

Even the effort says so. Whether it's designated a light, one-handed, or two handed weapon for a particular wielder. An earthbreaker, a one-handed weapon for T&F users, is a one handed weapon. How I wield it determines how I can wield a larger version or a smaller version.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
thaX wrote:

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.

Actually the FAQ said you should treat it as original size for Str/dam. So you get 2 handed bonus while one handed.

You should look again. The reason the wording was changed was to prevent the character from getting 1.5 str mod damage while wielding an Earthbreaker and Klar together. It was gone over earlier in the thread.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
thaX wrote:

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.

What are you talking about? Character size vs. weapon size has nothing to do with it. A earthbreaker for a person with Thunder and Fang is a one-handed weapon. If it was a two handed weapon, I would get 1.5X Str and Power Attack. A two-handed weapon wielded in one hand is different than a two-handed weapon used as a one handed weapon.

Quote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed
Even the effort says so. Whether it's designated a light, one-handed, or two handed weapon for a particular wielder. An earthbreaker, a one-handed weapon for T&F users, is a one handed weapon. How I wield it determines how I can wield a larger version or a smaller version.

Not because he can actually wield the thing one handed, but how it is designated for that creature. Whether or not the size of the weapon is inappropriate to the character looks at the weapon and the character and compares the sizes of the two. That the EB is a two handed weapon never changes. It stays the same.

Using it one handed as the feat allows, with the Klar as the first part of the feat explains, allows the character to TWF with it and the klar. It does not negate the size rules, shrink the EB or anything else but this. Damage is as what you would get TWF with normal weapons (1.0 for the main, .5 for the off) Power attack get +2 for each -1 to hit, and other damage effects go to a one handed paradigm.

You are no longer using it with one hand when you try to wield the oversized EB. It is still trying to Two Hand an oversized Two Handed Weapon.

When a character uses a Longsword in two hands, it doesn't suddenly change into a two handed weapon. You do get the 1.5 times str mod bonus and the like, but it is still a one handed weapon.

Why would the Earthbreaker suddenly become a one handed weapon going the other way around?

Here, earlier in the overall rules for weapons...

Quote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

So when the measure of effort is mentioned again, it is using the comparative elements from the weapons and size and the size of the character to determine how or if the character can use different sized weapon not made for his own size. It has nothing to do with being able to one hand a particular two handed weapon. An oversized Greatsword would be the same as an oversized Earthbreaker for this character, feat or no.


thaX wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
thaX wrote:

It changes how a character wields it, the damage he does with it (As far as Str mods and feats that add damage), and the fact that he can now wield a Klar with it and still get the AC bonus.

It doesn't change the fact that it is still a two handed weapon!!

Character size vs weapon size.

The feat, to answer Crystal, only changes how it is wielded, the weapon is still the same as it was.

What are you talking about? Character size vs. weapon size has nothing to do with it. A earthbreaker for a person with Thunder and Fang is a one-handed weapon. If it was a two handed weapon, I would get 1.5X Str and Power Attack. A two-handed weapon wielded in one hand is different than a two-handed weapon used as a one handed weapon.

Quote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed
Even the effort says so. Whether it's designated a light, one-handed, or two handed weapon for a particular wielder. An earthbreaker, a one-handed weapon for T&F users, is a one handed weapon. How I wield it determines how I can wield a larger version or a smaller version.

Not because he can actually wield the thing one handed, but how it is designated for that creature. Whether or not the size of the weapon is inappropriate to the character looks at the weapon and the character and compares the sizes of the two. That the EB is a two handed weapon never changes. It stays the same.

Using it one handed as the feat allows, with the Klar as the first part of the feat explains, allows the character to TWF with it and the klar. It does not negate the size rules, shrink the EB or anything else but this. Damage is as what you would get TWF with normal weapons (1.0 for the...

Nope. It makes it a one-handed weapon. An oversized EB is a Large One-Handed Weapon for a character with T&F, so they can use it with two hands.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I see...

So an Ant can wield an Colossal weapon if he just has the feats to do it with, is that what your saying?

The thing is a two handed weapon. A Medium Creature can not wield a large two handed weapon. This feat does not change that. Else, the ants would rule all of Golorian.

Cast lead blades on a regular sized one, or find some other way to up damage, this ain' it.


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He isn't wielding a large two-handed weapon. He's wielding a large one handed weapon.


thaX wrote:

I see...

So an Ant can wield an Colossal weapon if he just has the feats to do it with, is that what your saying?

Effectively, yes. If you gave a Fine creature (with hands to wield a weapon) some feat or other ability that lets him disregard any and all size step changes and treat all weapons as if they were sized properly for him, he could wield a Colossal Greatsword just as easily as he could wield a Fine Greatsword. That is absolutely what we're saying.

Moreover, if the feat lets you treat an Earthbreaker as a Light weapon (two handiness categories down), then you could wield a Large Earthbreaker as a One-Handed weapon and a Huge Earthbreaker as a Two-Handed weapon. Gargantuan Earthbreakers would still be right out. If you had that, in combination with a feat that lets you count as one size category larger in determining how you wield a weapon, then you count yourself as a Large creature instead of the Medium creature you actually are. That would mean that a Large weapon is zero steps different for you and you could wield the Large Earthbreaker as a Light weapon, a Huge one as a 1-h, a Garg one as a 2-h, and a Colossal one is too big for you.

Silver Crusade

thaX wrote:
The thing is a two handed weapon. A Medium Creature can not normally wield a large two handed weapon. However this feat (and others) changes that.

Fixed that for you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

See, the FAQ for the Titan Mauler disagrees with this flawed theory. The size rules for inappropiate weapons is not a sliding scale, the only thing to look at is the comparison between the weapon size and the character size. This feat, the Titan Mauler ability and other situations simular, does not change the weapon physically.

You can not wield an oversized Earth Breaker.

Silver Crusade

You keep saying that, but all of the evidence points to that statement being wrong. But keep saying it, eventually maybe you will believe yourself.


thaX wrote:

See, the FAQ for the Titan Mauler disagrees with this flawed theory. The size rules for inappropiate weapons is not a sliding scale, the only thing to look at is the comparison between the weapon size and the character size. This feat, the Titan Mauler ability and other situations simular, does not change the weapon physically.

You can not wield an oversized Earth Breaker.

hold on there. There is a difference between the Titan Mauler class ability and the T&F feat.

Quote:

Massive Weapons

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).
This ability replaces trap sense.

Notice that this class ability specifically calls out only the attack roll penalty going down. It does not say that you treat large weapons a size category smaller.


I just can't get it out of my head every time I read this thread; O'Reilly's interview of Stephen Colbert.

"You know what I hate about people who criticize you (O'Reilly)? They criticize what you say but they never give you credit for how loud you say it." -Stephen Colbert

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

And?

There also has been quoted comments from various developers from Paizo that have delved into this. There is also a quote that actually is about this feat, say "No" to the question of double wielding the hammers.

I don't have time to pull them or cut and past from earlier in the thread, but I can if you want to see them again. Or someone can link the thread, as I have not been able to do that right.

Ya just can't do it. The telephone pole with the foundation block on the end is to darn big, a medium sized person can't wield it.

For the earlier dig on Intent. What was intended, and what has been clarified as being the intent of this feat was to use the EB with the Klar as one would TWF, getting 1.0 damage for the EB and .5 for the (Light weapon equivilant) Klar and retaining the AC bonus from the Klar. It was never the intent to double wield EB or try and wield a larger one two handed.

Silver Crusade

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And how many times do we have to tell you we are not arguing RAI? It's been said by almost everybody on our side of the argument. Guess what? I agree with you. It was never intended for this feat to allow you to dual wield earthbreakers nor was it intended to allow you to wield oversized earthbreakers.

However, what the rules say and what they intend don't always match. This is one of those cases. The Thunder and Fang feat says you wield an earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. It does not give any caveats or conditions to that. If you have Thunder and Fang you always wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. Because of this, you can dual-wield earthbreakers. Since you can wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, you can wield an earthbreaker one size category larger as a two-handed weapon.


no-one is arguing RAI, Im pretty sure everyone on the for side of the debate has conceded that.

A large Earthbreaker wouldn't be the size of a telephone pole. a telephone pole weighs more than 13KG.


I'm pretty sure I brought it up before, but if you want to see how much a typical Earthbreaker weighs, pick up the closest 3 month old baby. That's approximately 13 lbs or so. Tie it to a handle, and you've got yourself a good model for the weight of an Earthbreaker. Take a few swings... don't worry, I'm sure the kid will love it. Now grab yourself another 3 month old. That's 26 lbs, just shy of a Large Earthbreaker. Are you trying to imply you can't swing around a pair of infants by some inherent principal? That, regardless of whatever feat or ability you have, the shear weight of a pair of 3 month old babies is just too much for a muscle-bound fighter or barbarian to manage? Because the assertion that 28 lbs for a Large Earthbreaker is simply inherently too big to swing properly is the fundamental basis of the argument Thax and his ilk peddle here.

Silver Crusade

Large equipment must not be very dense. An earthbreaker twice the size of a 13 lb medium earthbreaker should weigh 4 times as much. Or is it 8 times as much?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Large equipment must not be very dense. An earthbreaker twice the size of a 13 lb medium earthbreaker should weigh 4 times as much. Or is it 8 times as much?

well, heck even 4 times as much should be fine.

Were talking about characters who can carry over 100 lbs around and consider that a "light" load. Heck by the time a person has a 20 strength, they're effectively stronger then a Minotaur. Think about that for a second, heck even a horse has a str of 16. Is there any comparison today of a person who is physically stronger then a horse, let alone a giant bull/man/pig(hehe).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, there is the 8ft. long 160 lbs. weapon, that any medium PC with 18 strength can wield without penalty, or, have a lower strength, and take a -4 penalty.

Otherwise known as the Maul of the Titans.

Now, how big is that Earthbreaker again?


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Large equipment must not be very dense. An earthbreaker twice the size of a 13 lb medium earthbreaker should weigh 4 times as much. Or is it 8 times as much?

Those are the rules for enlarging a creature; doubled in each dimension is 8x the weight because 2^3 = 8. The rules on items state that a Large version is twice the weight while a Small version is half the weight, grading out from there to the other size categories.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote:

And how many times do we have to tell you we are not arguing RAI? It's been said by almost everybody on our side of the argument. Guess what? I agree with you. It was never intended for this feat to allow you to dual wield earthbreakers nor was it intended to allow you to wield oversized earthbreakers.

However, what the rules say and what they intend don't always match. This is one of those cases. The Thunder and Fang feat says you wield an earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. It does not give any caveats or conditions to that. If you have Thunder and Fang you always wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. Because of this, you can dual-wield earthbreakers. Since you can wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, you can wield an earthbreaker one size category larger as a two-handed weapon.

You keep saying this.

You can still use the weapon as a two handed weapon also. You can use a Long Sword as a two handed weapon, does that turn it into a two handed weapon? According to you, it does.

You see, using a two handed weapon as a one handed one is not the same as shrinking that weapon to use it as such. The weapon damage doesn't go from 2d6 to a 1d8. Or is that what your saying?

Being able to wield a weapon in a certain way doesn't mean the weapon itself changes. It is still a Two Handed weapon. It still is compared to the character as a Two Handed Weapon. The character is using the larger sized weapon as a two handed weapon, no longer is he using it in one hand.

Going the other way, does this mean that you could not wild a tiny Earthbreaker because you use the normal sized weapon one handed?

The Core Rulebook, by the way, says to double the weight for a weapon, but that some weapons have a special weight. I don't have the Earthbreaker entry on me, so I don't know if it is more or not.

You halve the weight for a size smaller.

There are other ways to get a step up in damage then to circumvent the rules on a particular wording of a feat. Saying "Well, it doesn't say I can't do it, so it must mean I can." is a good way to take the fun out of the game for other players as you argue your point with the GM as he sadly shakes his head.


thaX wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:

And how many times do we have to tell you we are not arguing RAI? It's been said by almost everybody on our side of the argument. Guess what? I agree with you. It was never intended for this feat to allow you to dual wield earthbreakers nor was it intended to allow you to wield oversized earthbreakers.

However, what the rules say and what they intend don't always match. This is one of those cases. The Thunder and Fang feat says you wield an earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. It does not give any caveats or conditions to that. If you have Thunder and Fang you always wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. Because of this, you can dual-wield earthbreakers. Since you can wield an appropriately-sized earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, you can wield an earthbreaker one size category larger as a two-handed weapon.

You keep saying this.

You can still use the weapon as a two handed weapon also. You can use a Long Sword as a two handed weapon, does that turn it into a two handed weapon? According to you, it does.

BZZT, WRONG

You cannot use a Longsword, sized properly for you, as a two-handed weapon. You can wield it in two hands, but that's completely different from wielding it two-handed. That's why feats like Power Attack list both two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons wielded in two hands, as separate entities, as qualifying for the increased damage. You're still conflating your terminology.


Well, considering you can't use a long sword as a two-handed weapon, you're wrong on that part. You can use a long sword in two hands, but not as a two handed weapon, or else you could use it in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype.

There is a difference between using something as a one-handed weapon, and using it in one-hand.

Quote:
Being able to wield a weapon in a certain way doesn't mean the weapon itself changes. It is still a Two Handed weapon. It still is compared to the character as a Two Handed Weapon. The character is using the larger sized weapon as a two handed weapon, no longer is he using it in one hand.

Actually he is. That's why it needs two hands. He is using a Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, which, for him, requires two hands per effort rules.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CrystalSpellblade wrote:

Well, considering you can't use a long sword as a two-handed weapon, you're wrong on that part. You can use a long sword in two hands, but not as a two handed weapon, or else you could use it in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype.

There is a difference between using something as a one-handed weapon, and using it in one-hand.

Quote:
Being able to wield a weapon in a certain way doesn't mean the weapon itself changes. It is still a Two Handed weapon. It still is compared to the character as a Two Handed Weapon. The character is using the larger sized weapon as a two handed weapon, no longer is he using it in one hand.
Actually he is. That's why it needs two hands. He is using a Large Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, which, for him, requires two hands per effort rules.

Huh?

First you say he is using it at a one handed weapon then say he is using two hands to do so?

How does that work?

Is it held like a cop posing with a gun, arms outstretched in front, wide stance with legs spread apart. "Freeze, or I will put the hammer down!!"

As you can use a Long Sword with two hands, this feat allow you to use a specific two handed weapon in one hand. I see no difference in this comparison, but somehow one means one thing while the other does not?

I am trying to find different ways to say this, really I am. I hate repeating myself as others repeat the same consideration of "handyness" without actually looking at the rules and intent of the feat.

To discount what the intent of the feat is to try and get something else out of it, something never intended, is something that irks me to no end. To effectively rule as a GM, overseerer, or as a Paizo Developer ruling on a FAQ, the first thing to look at is what the intent of the ability/feat/feature/rule is in the first place. This was never intended to make it so that one would use two EB's when TWF or use an oversized one. It is meant to TWF with the EB with a Klar, keeping the AC bonus of the Klar as you do so.

So everything about being one handed, double wielding, oversized two handing and all is going beyond the scope of the feat. RAW and RAI have a parallel, and going away from RAI but still strickly RAW is going beyond having fun with this game and into something that may take a college degree and experience with archaeology to dig into.

To say it is RAW to use this feat in a way that is not an actual part of the feat is leading astray others that may think it is ok because of your say so. The Size Rules doesn't change, this feat doesn't change the size of the weapon, it doesn't go on a sliding scale.

One can not wield an oversized Earthbreaker. Not in a normal circumstance, not with this feat. I am not sure how many other ways I can try to explain it to everyone.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:
thaX wrote:


You can still use the weapon as a two handed weapon also. You can use a Long Sword as a two handed weapon, does that turn it into a two handed weapon? According to you, it does.

BZZT, WRONG

You cannot use a Longsword, sized properly for you, as a two-handed weapon. You can wield it in two hands, but that's completely different from wielding it two-handed. That's why feats like Power Attack list both two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons wielded in two hands, as separate entities, as qualifying for the increased damage. You're still conflating your terminology.

Semantics.

Your using the Long Sword as if it was a two handed weapon. You get 1.5 times str, +3 per -1 on Power attack, on and on.

Your using the Earthbreaker as a one handed weapon. Your getting 1.0 times str, +2 per -1 on power attack, on and on...

I don't know, do you see a difference?

However the book uses the terminology, it amounts to the same thing. Long Sword is still One Handed, the Earth Breaker is still Two Handed.


thaX wrote:
As you can use a Long Sword with two hands, this feat allow you to use a specific two handed weapon in one hand. I see no difference in this comparison, but somehow one means one thing while the other does not?

No, you're still conflating terminology. You can wield a Longsword with two hands. Hell, you can wield a dagger with two hands, it's just that there's no mechanical benefit for doing so. In neither case does the weapon become two-handed. But Thunder and Fang lets you wield the Earthbreaker one-handed; not in one hand but one-handed which is a completely different animal. Now, for all practical purposes, you count an Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon. That means a Medium Earthbreaker requires one-handed effort to wield and a Large Earthbreaker, one size category larger, steps up from one-handed to two-handed. Seriously, it's not rocket surgery.

You've got to divorce the size category from the handiness category. A Longsword is always a one-handed weapon, whether it's size category is Fine, Medium, or Colossal. The size category just designates the size of creature it was designed for. And the rules say that you change the effort for you to wield by one step for each step of difference between your size category and the weapon's size category. The Earthbreaker, with the Thunder and Fang feat, is counted as a one-handed weapon. That's not size-limited so any sized Earthbreaker is counted as a one-handed weapon; from a Fine to a Colossal. Then you determine how much effort it takes to wield a one-handed weapon of whatever size variant you pick up based on how many sizes difference between you and the weapon. If it's Medium and you're Medium, it is zero steps, so it takes one-handed effort to wield the one-handed weapon. If you're Small, it takes two-handed effort. If you're Large, it takes light effort. If it's Small, it also takes light effort. If it's Large, it takes two-handed effort.

PS: Do you even know what the word Semantics means? You say "semantics" as if the difference in meaning is inconsequential. That is the very root of your inability to comprehend this very simple issue... unless you're being willfully ignorant. In which case, quit trolling the thread.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Light weapons are specifically mentioned to give no mechanical benefit for using it with two hands, that it counts as if using your main hand.

I don't know, I have tried to tell you. You seem to be stuck on the fact that using a weapon differently somehow changes that weapon. But when it goes the other way, somehow it is different. Is a Tiny Earth Breaker somehow unwieldable by the character now since he has this feat where it wasn't before? Or does going the other way different than going big?

Yes, Semantics means that "In" and "As If" are about the same in context. Your telling me that it is all the difference in the world.

It is just that your going up or down. One handed to a two handed stance, or a two handed as a one handed weapon. The weapon's themselves never change. It is constant. That is what I am telling you.


thaX wrote:
Is a Tiny Earth Breaker somehow unwieldable by the character now since he has this feat where it wasn't before? Or does going the other way different than going big?

No, because you can treat an EarthBreaker as both a one handed and two handed weapon, you can choose which way to wield it.


@haX: In a mechanical system, where you have terms of significance, and where the difference between the terms "in" and "as if" has been clearly illustrated via FAQ to be different and distinct in the context of the Pathfinder System, your argument falls flat. You cannot ignore shades of meaning when they have significant impact. You are stuck on the idea that using a weapon differently, in a way one wouldn't normally be able to use it, can't translate into using a larger version of that weapon. In some cases, it can't, but those cases are explicitly spelled out, as with Jotungrip.

An Earthbreaker, by default, is a two-handed weapon. It doesn't matter what size it is or what size you are, its default category is two-handed. Thunder and Fang allows you the option to change that category from Two-Handed to One-Handed. Again, doesn't matter what size you are or what size it is. So now it's a one-handed Earthbreaker. Now you start looking at size and you only look at the size category of the weapon and your own size category. If it's a Medium weapon and you're a Medium creature, no size change is required. If you are a Large creature and it is Medium, you're wielding a one-handed weapon stepped down by one step to light. If it's Large and you're medium, you're wielding a one-handed weapon stepped up by one step to two-handed. It's just that simple; no muss, no fuss.

Scarab Sages

I actually think I see thaX's side in this however I disagree with it.

based upon this:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

There are two different perspectives on weapons in Pathfinder.

The first is that weapons require a certain handedness to wield via "effort" and the second is that weapons have intrinsically a certain handedness via "size" catagory realtive to the intented user. These are different.

Thus, a Bastard sword is "listed" as a one handed weapon (by the chart) which kinda defies the convention. For a typical marshal character, it is used as a two handed weapon. With a feat it is used as a one handed weapon. For Magus class weapon selection (like Black Blade) that actually look at the weapon itself, it is a one handed weapon per the chart listing. Thus it is backwards in that it is a one handed weapon that usually needs two hands. /shurg - imho, it should be a 2 handed marshal weapon that with a feat can be used in one hand. Thus the exception.

For all other aspects, two handed weapons are as described - 2 handed, except many have feats that allow them to be wielded with one hand via less effort. So this wouldn't change the ability of a BB Magus to take a two handed weapon (like a greatsword); he couldn't, it still is a 2 handed weapon even though he may have a feat that provides the effort to him to wield it one handed - regardless of size of the weapon (tiny through medium).

The crux of this discussion appears to be using inappropriately sized weapons; which are clearly spelled out:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

So this spells out the effort aspect, not the base classification side. If a weapon that can be used one handed is one size bigger, it requires 2 hands to wield effectively. That's it.

If any 2 handed weapon that has a feat option that allows it to be used in one hand, and it suddenly becomes one catagory larger, it again now requires 2 hands to wield. The weapon was a 2 handed weapon used in one hand, it is still a 2 handed weapon by size category.

For Thunder and Fang, I agree RAI is incorrect, but RAW it simply says it can be used in one hand thus only one hand of effort is required. One step up in size would require a step up in effort; thus another hand. If it stepped up another size, it couldn't be used at all, under the current conditions; you're out of effort.

TL;DR - wielder sized 2 handed weapons that have feats to allow them to be used in one hand, can be used a size up with 2 hands.

I think a number of people previously have said this, I just needed to write it out for myself as it sorta changed my views on handedness and size relationships.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The measure of effort is repeated, for consistancy, in regards to the designation of Light/One Handed/Two handed categories. The Particular wielder is one size, the weapon is the other, and the difference is figured from there. Using a Longsword Two Handed or an Earth Breaker with One Hand doesn't change the actual size of the weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:


An Earthbreaker, by default, is a two-handed weapon. It doesn't matter what size it is or what size you are, its default category is two-handed.

I understand your point, I do, but it seems that you do not understand mine.

It isn't a default at all, that is what it is. A Two Handed Weapon. Using it differently does not change that.

It. Doesn't. Change.

Silver Crusade

The only thing light, one-handed, and two-handed affect in regards to where weapons fall on the table is hit points and stuff like that. A weapon does not have a category until a character wields it. Get that through your skull. And once a character wields it, that character's minimum required effort to wield it is what the weapon counts as for that character.

Scarab Sages

thaX wrote:
Kazaan wrote:


An Earthbreaker, by default, is a two-handed weapon. It doesn't matter what size it is or what size you are, its default category is two-handed.

I understand your point, I do, but it seems that you do not understand mine.

It isn't a default at all, that is what it is. A Two Handed Weapon. Using it differently does not change that.

It. Doesn't. Change.

I agree, the weapon size "classification" is still 2 handed (regardless of size, whether it is tiny or huge, it will always be a "classification" catagory of two handed. Thus the intrinsic weapon classification - this is not effort.

However the effort to use any given classification varies by the wielders size, magic aspects and / or the wielder's feats. Sometimes it requires more effort i.e. a bastard sword without exotic training requires more effort - an extra hand. A dorn dergar requires less effort with the proper feat so it can be used with only one hand. If is suddenly changes size i.e. medium to large (no change in classification, it was 2 handed, and still is 2 handed) it then requires more effort or another hand.


thaX wrote:
I understand your point, I do

No, you don't. That has been made abundantly clear by your insistence against it despite the fact that is logically sound and backed up by facts while yours is based on facetious assertions. If you really understood it, you'd drop your position and correct your interpretation the matter. The fact that you don't indicates that you either don't understand it or you are purposefully pursuing a point that you know very well to be incorrect and presenting it to mislead others that may come to the thread looking earnestly for a correct interpretation. And, if the second option, you're violating the primary rule of the forum... don't be a jerk. So, as I said, if you really fail to understand, I'll try to make it clear but that involves work on your part too. And if you really do understand my point, quit derailing the thread.

Using the weapon differently doesn't change the fact that it's a two-handed weapon... but size step rules don't care. Size-steps for inappropriately sized weapons work off the effective effort to wield, whether it matches the weapon or is different due to some specific rules element. A Tiny Earthbreaker is still a two-handed weapon; but the rules state that it only takes light effort for a Medium creature to wield a Tiny Earthbreaker. Likewise, a Medium Dagger is a light weapon and a Huge Dagger is also a light weapon. But, for a Medium creature to wield a Huge Dagger, it takes two-handed effort. It even applies for a properly sized weapon. A Medium Longsword is a one-handed weapon so a Medium creature takes one-handed effort to wield a one-handed weapon. If the effort it takes to wield the weapon were an inherent, fixed property of the weapon itself, it would preclude any possibility of having feats or abilities that change the effort it takes at all. There would not be any Jotungip, Quarterstaff Master, Thunder and Fang, etc.; they could not exist within the mechanical bounds of the system.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

But using it and changed the designation are two different things. Your looking at it as the same. There is no sliding scale, that you can use the weapon differently doesn't change the weapon itself. That is what was clarified for the Titan Mauler and other things that people wanted to use like this.

Though you can use the Earth Breaker One Handed, it doesn't change the Size Rules, or specificaly, the inappropiate weapon size rules, to effect a different way to look at whether or not the wielder can wield a two handed weapon that is larger than he is.

Silver Crusade

Yes, how you are able to wield a weapon changes its designation for the purpose of effort. If you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, for you it is a one-handed weapon for all purposes except the item's hit points. There is mechanical proof of this in the bastard sword.

Only characters with EWP (bastard sword) can wield a large bastard sword. But according to you, this shouldn't be the case because a bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon.

So please, explain that.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Yes, how you are able to wield a weapon changes its designation for the purpose of effort. If you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, for you it is a one-handed weapon for all purposes except the item's hit points. There is mechanical proof of this in the bastard sword.

Only characters with EWP (bastard sword) can wield a large bastard sword. But according to you, this shouldn't be the case because a bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon.

So please, explain that.

even more so, shouldn't a character be able to wield a large bastard sword without the ewp feat since you have to wield it two-handed, and since wielding a large version would have you wielding it two-handed doesn't it bypass the bastard swords rules since you're not wielding it one-handed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Sub_Zero wrote:
even more so, shouldn't a character be able to wield a large bastard sword without the ewp feat since you have to wield it two-handed, and since wielding a large version would have you wielding it two-handed doesn't it bypass the bastard swords rules since you're not wielding it one-handed.

This is why you find it so hard to get a lot of people swayed to your view.

That isn't the expected RAW interpretation, it also isn't RAI, and it definitely isn't a reasonable interpretation. If you brought this up during a rules discussion in real life, I'd rule against you because I'd realize your logic is flawed in this and if flawed in this the other issue you are advocating is highly likely to be flawed.

Scarab Sages

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Yes, how you are able to wield a weapon changes its designation for the purpose of effort. If you can wield a weapon as a one-handed weapon, for you it is a one-handed weapon for all purposes except the item's hit points. There is mechanical proof of this in the bastard sword.

I don't agree with this perspective "for all purposes".

If I am a phalanx fighter and can use a glaive one handed, does it qualify for a Bladebound Magus?
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.

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