PFS - Thunder and Fang with 2 Earth Breakers


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Liberty's Edge

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"Thunder and Fang (Combat)
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.

Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)

Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty."

I need to ask the messageboard about this, I have been discussion this line of usage from the feat with other GM's and my VC, and they all have different views on how this feat works.

Some believe I have to apply by the favor text of the feat and only use Earth Breaker with a Klar.
Others says i can use 2 Earth Breaker as it dosn't state that i can't use the Earth Breakers in both hands but with the -4/-4 attack roll.

If this has been answered before could some one post me a link because i couldn't find any answer to this question, and i apologise for my lack on that.


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I wish they'd kept the original wording for this feat from the Crimson Throne AP. There was no room for misinterpretation.


As written it seems to work. And as you need at least one prerequisite you'll not be using and the -4/-4 is a hefty penalty I wouldn't have any problems with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does it allow you to use a large Earthbreaker?


The way it's written now, you should be able to use two Earthbreakers, one in each hand, and apply penalties as though you were two-weapon fighting with two one-handed weapons. (So it works the way you think)

Make sure you have the book on hand (you should, anyway, since it's PFS) so you can show that the verbiage has changed (pretty significantly) since the feat was first published.

As Umbranus points out, you will be burning a feat on Weapon Focus: Klar and never using it, as well as taking hefty penalties, so your GM and VOs should adjudicate that it's perfectly fine to use Thunder and Fang in this fashion.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does it allow you to use a large Earthbreaker?

Same as some other abilities* that's a grey zone that's not clearly forbidden and by thus could be read as possible.

I would not allow it as a GM because I do not like the large two-handed weapon shenanigans. But apart from my dislike it seems balanced enough. You can't use WF: Klar and TWF and get a penalty to hit.

* the other abilities that are similar in being a grey zone are: Quarterstaff master and the phalanx fighter ability when combined with a buckler.


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As a DM idd veto this, ask your Dm.

Its his call.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Isn't a Klar already a light weapon?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I think it's pretty clear that you can't do that. The style clearly intends you to use the earth breaker in one hand and the klar in the other. I would not allow you to use Thunder and Fang with two earthbreakers.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Isn't a Klar already a light weapon?

It is listed as one-handed martial weapon


Haladir wrote:
The style clearly intends you to use the earth breaker in one hand and the klar in the other.

The core of this problem is the question: "Is flavour static to provide a specific environment to play in or is flavour something that can be changed if it stands in the way of fun?"

For some, like me the rules have to be fixed and the flavour can be bend to support what you want to play.
For others (and it seems for you) flavour is the basis for their view of the game world and changing it would require you to change the world.

Liberty's Edge

I read the flavour text as thats the traditional way of fighting with it, but i could also imagine some Shoanti warriors might have gone the same way i wanted to go with this feat.

but i can also see some gm's might be against it, and would leave me with having to bring a second char along for just such an incident.


As written, it does let you wield a large Earthbreaker using 2 hands. The feat lets you treat it as a Large One-Handed weapon which, for a Medium creature, is wielded as if it were a Two-Handed weapon. You'd take a -2 size difference penalty, but that's no worse than the penalty from using the standard TWF style intended. That's the thing about combat... there are "rules" and there are "guidelines". Not being able to wield a 2-h weapon that's one size too big for you is a "rule"... you need a specific exception to override it, such as specialized training. Needing to wield the Earth Breaker in conjunction with the Klar is a "guideline". That kind of rule can be broken if it's to your advantage because combat is all about being opportunistic. If you're the kind of combatant that 'could' do something, but chooses not to because it isn't how it's "supposed" to be done... that means we found the Paladin.


@ Warrick Blackstone
Honestly I can't agree with this primarily because it makes no sense. The feat as written is clearly mean't to use a Earthbreaker and Klar style of combat.

/an/

determiner

determiner: an

1.

the form of a before an initial vowel sound ( an arch; an honor ) and sometimes, especially in British English, before an initial unstressed syllable beginning with a silent or weakly pronounced h : an historian.

So as the grammar states you can wield a earth breaker as a one handed weapon. One Earthbreaker + One Klar. Its not only clear but without question how the feat works.

Besides as I have always understood it, even if it isn't written there then assume you can't just do as you want. Besides have you ever tried wielding two 14 lb. sledgehammers? Doesn't work that well.

Kazaan Guess we found the Grammar Paladin. :P


So lets rewrite this in a terrible manner.

Benefit: You can use a an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using a an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Seems it would still allow you to wield a large Earthbreaker in two hands.

The feat allows you to use an Earthbreaker as an one-handed weapon.

A large one-handed weapon requires two hands for a medium creature to wield it.

Interesting.


Blackbloodtroll

Now that would be interesting. And much like a certain iconic barbarian. ;)

Grand Lodge

Thunder and Fang specifically states: "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." This means that you can dual-wield Medium-sized earth breakers and two-hand a Large-sized earth breaker.

The rest of the feat says nothing to contradict this. In fact, the rest of the feat only applies to using a Klar (normally a one-handed weapon) as a light weapon for purposes of TWF and allows you to retain your Shield bonus while attacking with it.

Wilaml Fmelvam: You are assuming too much. Nowhere does it state you must wield one earth breaker and one klar.

Grand Lodge

The use of "a" or "an" is irrelevant. The feat does not require you to use AN earth breaker and A klar. You are free to use two earth breakers. You are assuming that, because the feat addresses both earth breakers and klars, it is forcing you to use both. This is untrue and definitively not a fact.

Also, I agree. The feat is extremely clear as it is written.

P.S. - "… have you ever tried wielding two 14 lb. sledgehammers? Doesn't work that well." Have you ever tried to summon a lightning strike accurate to 5 sq. ft.? Doesn't work that well. Have you ever tried to shape shift into an eagle? Doesn't work that well. Have you ever tried to teleport from Absalom to Augustana? Doesn't work that well (on many levels).

P.P.S. - "And you'll excuse me as I am stating AN opinion not A fact." FTFY

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could use two Klars.

It is probably the only two shield fighting style that won't leave bloodstains in your DM's undershorts.

Grand Lodge

Hmm… That is true, BBT. The second Klar sentence isn't tied to the first, thus there is no requirement to use an earth breaker to gain the light weapon status. Pick up Improved Shield Bash with Klars and, bam, double Klar bashing without using up your Shield bonus.

Grand Lodge

Wilaml Fmelvam: Under your logic, Improved Shield Bash would only allow one shield bash per turn otherwise you would still lose your Shield bonus.

"When you perform A shield bash, you may still apply the shield's shield bonus to your AC."

Obviously, this is not the case, therefore the "an" in Thunder and Fang is not restrictive as you would insist.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

By a different reading, you could only wield a specific Earthbreaker.

Pick up a new Earthbreaker, and you are out of luck.

Grand Lodge

Just imagine: Weapon Focus's selected weapon is a single weapon. Is that shiny new Flaming Burst Longsword +3 so much better than your Masterwork Longsword? Sorry, Weapon Focus doesn't apply. You have to retrain the feat with that specific sword to get the bonus to hit. I mean, the balancing of the newer sword is so different that it will take weeks to master the differences. The basket hilt of the new sword rubs against your hand in a different way from the crossguard of your old weapon. RETRAIN THE FEAT! All in the name of Pathfinder sticklership!

Grand Lodge

Where'd you get that wording of the feat? Made up yourself as a house rule?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Suggested houserule, I guess.

Not too bad either.

Not hot on the name calling though.

Grand Lodge

Well, to be fair, your name is Blackbloodtroll.

It's a good rewrite for a house rule if you want to limit the feat.

Grand Lodge

Also, a small, funny note: The example Thunder and Fang build in Varisia - Birthplace of Legends is illegal. His feats are: Totem Spirit, Weapon Focus(Earthbreaker) and Thunder and Fang. Where is Weapon Focus(Klar) and Two-Weapon Fighting? Silly Paizo.


Apologies good luck in your gaming.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
George Demonspawn wrote:

Well, to be fair, your name is Blackbloodtroll.

It's a good rewrite for a house rule if you want to limit the feat.

It actually comes from a nickname I got back in the day, after the Fremont Troll, a long, long time ago, before the internet, and the term "troll" got it's new meaning.

Grand Lodge

Honestly, no need to apologize. Understanding feats is an art as much as a science. Honestly, they probably meant to restrict it to your interpretation, but they failed to do so, therefore players cannot be expected to have to "think like Paizo" when reading feats.

You should have left your posts up, so people can follow the argument in case they run into the same problem. At least, in my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Wow, BBT. That statue is awesome.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
George Demonspawn wrote:
Wow, BBT. That statue is awesome.

What can I say? Seattle is awesome.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In PFS, this is legit.

I encountered a dual-Earth Breaker PC last year at a Convention, right around the time I was designing a Shoanti myself. I told him the feat clearly spelled out that you needed to wield a Klar in order to one hand the Earth Breaker, but when he showed me the updated printing I had to allow it.

He also showed me a forum post confirming it, so that exists as well, but it's not needed at this point (and I'd have no more luck finding it than you already had).

Scarab Sages

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I have a pfs double earthbreaker character that went to two conventions (one was into bonekeep), and had no real problems. Make note that if you do use two, you aterunning at -4/-4 for twf, as other people said. Moreover, you are only doing 1x STR of damage instead of 1.5x, and -1/+2 via power attack, not-1/+3. This was stated in an updated faq a few months back.


@BBT:
That Statue is awesome as I have seen it in videos like "Where The Hell Is Matt." Again, sorry for the name calling hence why I removed my posts for being belligerent. It doesn't excuse my comment however.

@George:
I removed my posts as I was one. Being a Belligerent ass and two completely sidestepping the OP's original question. I also broke Paizos rule's and was politely informed of the infraction. However your points were valid and I was getting off track when I thought my original intent was being misconstrued. It doesn't excuse my behavior which was quite poor.

@Nefreet & Cao Thank you for your input guys. Marking this as a favorite in case I see a convo like this again.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No problem.

None of us are completely innocent.

Be on the boards long enough, and anyone will behave a little badly.

Silver Crusade

Out of curiousity, other than coolness factor, why would you want to do this? The penalties (-2 to hit, no shield bonus) seem to offset the additional damage. I guess with enlarge person, leadblades, etc the extra damage may compensate but most of the time I don't like the tradeoff.

I'd also very much expect GM variation. I'm not at all sure that I'd allow this in PFS. Parsing the sentences as finely as you are is overdoing RAW in my opinion. This is one case where I'd say the intent is crystal clear.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, that -4/-4 for two Earthbreakers is heavy, and you still have a dead feat.

This is a mechanically inferior option, but the flavor is cool.

Honestly, I no problem with this, thematically, or balance-wise.

Twin Impact Sawtooth Sabres are cool too.

Dark Archive

The best use of Thunder and Fang in my opinion is a Viking Fighter with a large Earth Breaker, Thunder and Fang, Vital Strike line of feats, Furious Finish and any other damage increasing feats (Power Attack, Weapon Spec., etc.). Throw on Enlarge Person and potentially Lead Blades for some fun.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I anticipate seeing more Human Barbarians with large-sized Earth Breakers in PFS now, because of this thread.

2d6 for a one-handed Earth Breaker.
3d6 for a large-sized Earth Breaker.
4d6 when using Lead Blades (or Impact).
6d6 when using Enlarge Person.
12d6 with Vital Strike.


The article doesn't have anything to do with number. If I'm wielding two longswords, I have a longsword in my right hand and a longsword in my left hand, but two longswords in total. I can wield an (equivalent to 'a') Earthbreaker in my right hand and an Earthbreaker (alternative phrasing, 'another Earthbreaker') in my left hand. If I use the standard Attack action to make an attack in this round, I can still make an attack in a subsequent round; I'm not limited to a single attack over the course of my whole life.

Ideally, you'd probably want to either be a Two-Weapon Warrior to reduce the penalty for wielding a pair of 1-h weapons, or a Titan Mauler using a Large Earthbreaker and reduce the penalties via Massive Weapons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

I anticipate seeing more Human Barbarians with large-sized Earth Breakers in PFS now, because of this thread.

2d6 for a one-handed Earth Breaker.
3d6 for a large-sized Earth Breaker.
4d6 when using Lead Blades (or Impact).
6d6 when using Enlarge Person.
12d6 with Vital Strike.

Not really.

The Two Weapon Fighting feat, and Weapon Focus(Klar) would be dead feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does it allow you to use a large Earthbreaker?

AFAIK using a weapon "as though it were a one-handed weapon." don't make it a one handed weapon, so you can't use a large version of a two handed weapon with two hands thanks to this feat.

The text it very similar to jotungrip and this FAQ say that it is not possible to do that:

DAQ wrote:

Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?

No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13


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Jotungrip explicitly specifies weapons appropriately sized for you. The FAQ you cite is referring to the Massive Weapons ability which reduces attack penalties for using over-sized weapons, but does nothing for the "handiness" step-up. Going the other way, a Large Bastard-Sword cannot be wielded by a Medium creature unless they have EWP for it, even though the Bastard Sword is a 1-h weapon which, sized up, is treated as a 2-h weapon. Since a non-proficient character cannot wield a Bastard Sword in one hand, a non-proficient character cannot wield a Large Bastard Sword even in two hands. Thus, since a character with T&F can wield an Earth Breaker in one hand, he can wield a Large Earth Breaker in two hands.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A bastard sword is a 1 handed weapon that require a special proficiency.
A Earthbreaker is a 2 handed weapon that can be wielded as a 1 handed weapon with a specific feat. But the feat don't change the simple fact that it is a 2 handed weapon.

And, just to explain how the thunder and fang is meant to work RAI (not RAW), the words of James Jacobs (BTW, he is in charge of Golarion canon material, so this is his field of competence).

"James Jacobs" Jul 12, 2012, wrote:

...

The whole point of Thunder and Fang is to let you fight with that weapon and a klar as if the klar and the earth breaker were one single double weapon. You wield the earthbreaker normally, but when you attack, your klar blade sticks out perpendicular from the earthbrearker's shaft, forming a stubby "T" shape. You can swing the earthbreaker normally, and also stab with the blade of the klar that sticks out from the middle of the shaft as if it were a secondary weapon attached to the earthbreaker itself.

That you get to retain the klar's AC bonus when you attack is actually thus only half of how the feat lets you bend the rules.

No need to change the feat as a result, since it's working as intended.

Interesting, neh? Sad that the feat don't say that.

Sczarni

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I believe, and this is just how I would rule, the verbiage says you can use "an earthbreaker as a one handed weapon". It does not state that you "treat earth breakers as one hand weapons". Therfore I would rule you get one and only one.

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