Where did I say my views are born or representative of libertarianism? I didn't. So, shut your mouth. I've actually stated I have views apart from whatever groups which I may be a member and challenged you to be able to make the same claim.
Of course you do. What a special unique snowflake you are.
People will always stiff servers. Instead of putting the risk squarely on the server, it should be put on the entire business.
I think every single person in the discussion has agreed with that.
It's the "therefore, don't tip, that will fix it" that is causing a great many headaches.
Buri's got his own special "ism" that won't get through the profanity filter.
You should tip. The only time you shouldn't is if the waiter/ress is total fail. I don't usually mind the auto-tip for a party of 8 or more, unless the service is crap. I've only had that happen once, and managed to get the manager to remove it. I still tipped, but it wasn't 18%.
I tend to tip at least 10% just for fogging a mirror...
I do think it's horsepucky that due to tips, a server doesn't make minimum wage. I've seen places that make them pool their tips and split it evenly, have to share with the busboys, etc. It's in no way "even stephen" to pay 3 bucks an hour + tips.
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I tip at 15% and usually adjust upward from there. On rare occasions I tip lower but that is usually due to really poor service (not food, not atmosphere, but service. I never punish a server for the cook's mistake, that I take to management).
There are a couple times when I tipped extremely low and as an example of the latest: Joe's crab shack. Waitress takes my wife an myself's order. NEVER comes back to check on us, doesn't bring me my drink, we never got out appetizer, and had to grab another server to get us silverware to eat with after the kitchen brought out our food 5 minutes earlier. Talked to the manager, and he said "yeah, she got busy with a large group that came in after you, they have 10 people". So what? I get dumped because a large tip walked in? It takes a few extra seconds to swing by and ask how everything is going. She finally returns to my table 10 minutes after the manager (45minutes after ordering) and tried to smooth things over and suck up a bit.
I stiffed her on the tip, which is the only time I ever did that.
Of course you do. What a special unique snowflake you are.
If having your own ideas or being able to stand up for what you believe regardless of group affiliation makes you a special unique snowflake, then I simply pity you.
So far, our exchanges have gone something like such:
- I make a post
- You retort with something loosely related and try to focus fire on it to discredit me while ignoring any larger points or message (aka taking cheap shots)
- I correct you and restate
- Rinse and repeat 2 and 3
To put simply: you're boring.
I do think it's horsepucky that due to tips, a server doesn't make minimum wage. I've seen places that make them pool their tips and split it evenly, have to share with the busboys, etc. It's in no way "even stephen" to pay 3 bucks an hour + tips.
If you walk away from a shift making less than the federal minimum wage, then your employer is doing something illegal. That minimum wage of $7.25/hr should be the minimum of what you make for your time there.
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I normally try and tip at or around 20%, it is a bit more generous than my local area's standard and so keeps me in server's good graces. You do not want a wait staff to dislike you.
However, I do believe in making my displeasure with a server known through not tipping and have refused to tip on several occasions. One such was when the server started to rub my shoulders as I ate, not only did I not tip, I left immediately and never went back.
Whoops! "Don't get physically intimate with the customers" is nothing I ever thought I'd have t explain! :P
Your post does bring up an related point: As rarely as I don't tip at all* if service is that bad, I'm not likely to go back to the restaurant at all.
*The time that springs to mind was once when I took my girlfriend and my mother to dinner. That's the sort of situation where, if things go right, you can impress each of them equally with how well you treat the other. But the waitstaff got confused and ate our order, because they thought it was their shift meal. I don't know if they were doing bong hits in the walk-in or what, but, speaking as a food service worker, no tip for them. Like, not even the fogging-a-mirror minimum.
For clarity, we really need to know a poster's country of origin before passing judgement.
Hama is not in the US.
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For clarity, we really need to know a poster's country of origin before passing judgement.
Hama is not in the US.
Irrelevant. We're discussing the American custom. If you're traveling to a foreign country, the local customs of Tipping should be one of the things you find about in advance, among other common points of etiquette.
I've found that European travelers to America are generally better at following American customs than most Americans that go to Europe.
Wait. So, I should give some of my hard earned money to a person who is doing their job, because their boss does not pay them enough? Even though I earn maybe 20% of what they earn? Interesting.
That is why I specifically requested not to hear from people in other countries. I know tipping customs are different elsewhere. For instance: I don't know how accurate this is, but I've heard that in Soviet Russia, the server tips you.
Hama, when I was a server, I didn't really consider my employer to be my "boss." I didn't get a paycheck (it was eaten up by taxes), so, since I consider the person who pays me to be my boss, I considered the guests on whom I would wait to fill that role.
You would have paid me (assuming you did) because I was working for YOU, not because my employer didn't pay me. If you could not "hire" me to act as a liaison to the kitchen for you, you could always buy some to-go food from the same restaurant to enjoy the same food without the service.
Wait. So, I should give some of my hard earned money to a person who is doing their job, because their boss does not pay them enough? Even though I earn maybe 20% of what they earn? Interesting.
If you can't afford to tip then do not eat at restaurants that have the expectation of tipping.
Seriously, what the hell is going on with all these cheapskate gamers?
-MD
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Hama, when I was a server, I didn't really consider my employer to be my "boss." I didn't get a paycheck (it was eaten up by taxes), so, since I consider the person who pays me to be my boss, I considered the guests on whom I would wait to fill that role.
You would have paid me (assuming you did) because I was working for YOU, not because my employer didn't pay me. If you could not "hire" me to act as a liaison to the kitchen for you, you could always buy some to-go food from the same restaurant to enjoy the same food without the service.
Different countries, different customs. Here, it is customary to leave a small tip (usually one that rounds out the price on the receipt. (EG if the check is 182 dinars, we would add until it gets to be 200), but that would be it. No 20 or more percent.
I hope you guys that object to tips don't find out about sales tax...
I apologize Hama, I made the assumption you are from America. I'm sure things are different in your country as tipping varies from country to country.
In America servers are grossly undercompensated with the expectation that they will receive a tip to ensure a living wage.
Some of our fellow gamers with insanely low charisma scores think it's ok not to tip and thus stick it to the man when in fact they are just sticking it to the waitress.
-MD
I normally try and tip at or around 20%, it is a bit more generous than my local area's standard and so keeps me in server's good graces. You do not want a wait staff to dislike you.
However, I do believe in making my displeasure with a server known through not tipping and have refused to tip on several occasions. One such was when the server started to rub my shoulders as I ate, not only did I not tip, I left immediately and never went back.
the couple waitresses I've had do that to me usually got higher tips because of it and got me going back. It really depends on the customer and the atmosphere of the resturaunt. If your a regular at some place it can change over time too.
If having your own ideas or being able to stand up for what you believe regardless of group affiliation makes you a special unique snowflake, then I simply pity you.
It's cool, I pity you for different reasons entirely. But mostly I pity those you come into contact with in real life. They're the ones whose lives you are making worse through your presence.
To put simply: you're boring.
Aww, come on. You find me fascinating.
Wait. So, I should give some of my hard earned money to a person who is doing their job, because their boss does not pay them enough? Even though I earn maybe 20% of what they earn? Interesting.For clarity, we really need to know a poster's country of origin before passing judgement.
Hama is not in the US.
Irrelevant. We're discussing the American custom. If you're traveling to a foreign country, the local customs of Tipping should be one of the things you find about in advance, among other common points of etiquette.
I've found that European travelers to America are generally better at following American customs than most Americans that go to Europe.
If you plan on dining out in the United States, yes.
To clarify, it's not like you're paying more than you would otherwise. If tipping weren't a part of the culture, the server's wage would be bumped up by raising food prices a similar amount. It's much easier to think of it as merely being a portion of the bill that you have more control over in order to reward good service or express displeasure with poor service.
the couple waitresses I've had do that to me usually got higher tips because of it and got me going back. It really depends on the customer and the atmosphere of the resturaunt. If your a regular at some place it can change over time too.I normally try and tip at or around 20%, it is a bit more generous than my local area's standard and so keeps me in server's good graces. You do not want a wait staff to dislike you.
However, I do believe in making my displeasure with a server known through not tipping and have refused to tip on several occasions. One such was when the server started to rub my shoulders as I ate, not only did I not tip, I left immediately and never went back.
If I'm paying a woman to touch me, she won't be a waitress! That's exactly the type of business where I prefer to frequent one establishment as a regular customer, though; feels more emotionally intimate.:P
(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Look, I know I'm a scumbag, and if this post gets removed, that's perfectly appropriate.)
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Wait. So, I should give some of my hard earned money to a person who is doing their job, because their boss does not pay them enough? Even though I earn maybe 20% of what they earn? Interesting.For clarity, we really need to know a poster's country of origin before passing judgement.
Hama is not in the US.
Irrelevant. We're discussing the American custom. If you're traveling to a foreign country, the local customs of Tipping should be one of the things you find about in advance, among other common points of etiquette.
I've found that European travelers to America are generally better at following American customs than most Americans that go to Europe.
If you plan on dining out in the United States, yes.
To clarify, it's not like you're paying more than you would otherwise. If tipping weren't a part of the culture, the server's wage would be bumped up by raising food prices a similar amount. It's much easier to think of it as merely being a portion of the bill that you have more control over in order to reward good service or express displeasure with poor service.
You make a good point. I didn't look at it that way. Just seemed like another way to separate me from some more of my money.
And EVEYRONE here is trying to do it anyway. First thing anyone does is to size you up to see how much money they could trick out of you if you don't know what they're doing.
If I'm paying a woman to touch me, she won't be a waitress! That's exactly the type of business where I prefer to frequent one establishment as a regular customer, though; feels more emotionally intimate.:P
(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Look, I know I'm a scumbag, and if this post gets removed, that's perfectly appropriate.)
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For those of you who live in countries where tipping is not normal: would the servers chase down the tippers to return the money? Can tipping be considered insulting? (I am told that it is in Japan)
I have been chased by a taxi driver with my change in Japan. He didn't say anything (I understood, anyway) about being insulted, be he sure worked hard not to keep the money.
Also, they put lace doilies on their back seats.
@_@
One thing I find... interesting, is the fact that everyone seems to agree that wait-staff should be paid more and not rely on tips (in fact, it should be done away with as a standard and only given when receiving a great service, like it is in most non-tipping countries - at least that's how I've read most people's replies).
However, plenty of you seem just fine with tipping less if the service has been less than stellar. How does that in a major way differentiate you from those who don't tip? You're still paying less than the "expected" amount.
Why not tip the standard expected amount and then take it up with a manager? I mean, that's the normal recourse one would take if dissatisfied with the service everywhere tipping isn't standard.
If not it seems like it really IS something people enjoy to use to lord over other people who they don't see as equals.
Would you also automatically put less money on the table for a new TV just because the store clerk didn't really know all that much about the differences between the 4 TVs he showed you?
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In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.Why not pull me back in? I've revisited places many times. I've never gotten a note from management, none of the servers, no dirty looks, no attitudes, no bad food, and so on. No one except those I've been with may have remarked about it after the fact. In my experience it acts like a thing that others force upon themselves and others rather than being an industry expectation.
Buri, in a lot of restaurants, staff complaining or doing anything similarly overt to a patron due to not tipping will get them in trouble with the management.
You cannot be ignorant of the idea that establishments heavily discourage their staff from confronting problematic patrons unless the problem is massive and in-your-face enough that it's a problem for the other customers and thus the business itself. That should be obvious. So it should be easy to realize, on thinking about it, that this particular metric here doesn't hold much meaning either for or against your position.
Part of the job wait staff get paid (or get paid by the other patrons, at least) to do is to avoid causing scenes with the problematic people.
Just something to be aware of when self-evaluating. The service industry is one that actively discourages staff-to-customer negative feedback, system wide. If you were expecting that bad behavior would result in negative feedback and thus are taking lack of such as an indication that your behavior is not bad - that method of getting feedback is mostly not going to actually work.
...Now, that small piece of information aside, I pretty strongly agree with what someone else said earlier. If you disagree morally with the tipping-as-wage system so greatly that you can't bring yourself to engage with it, even in a holding pattern to just not stiff people while working for change in a non harmful way (like at the ballot box) then I personally think it would be a lot better to express your opposition with your wallet by patronizing places that use a different system entirely. Not by simply withholding wages from servers in an attempt to starve them out of the system.
The way you "oppose" restaurants that use the tipping system, right now, is basically by ensuring that you still get the full benefit of taking advantage of that system (cheaper food than would be the case if the restaurant paid non tipping based wages) and the restaurant still gets the full benefit of taking advantage of that system (your business) and only the server loses.
My 2c.
Which is less than I'd tip you, if you were waiting on me.
One thing I find... interesting, is the fact that everyone seems to agree that wait-staff should be paid more and not rely on tips (in fact, it should be done away with as a standard and only given when receiving a great service, like it is in most non-tipping countries - at least that's how I've read most people's replies).
However, plenty of you seem just fine with tipping less if the service has been less than stellar. How does that in a major way differentiate you from those who don't tip? You're still paying less than the "expected" amount.
Why not tip the standard expected amount and then take it up with a manager? I mean, that's the normal recourse one would take if dissatisfied with the service everywhere tipping isn't standard.
If not it seems like it really IS something people enjoy to use to lord over other people who they don't see as equals.
Would you also automatically put less money on the table for a new TV just because the store clerk didn't really know all that much about the differences between the 4 TVs he showed you?
The problem with not going the lower-tip method is that the other method of expressing disatisfaction (a complaint) can result in the server fired instead of just having a little less money. The firing itself can be an even worse economic hit for them.
You can both be douchebags.Again with the douchebag customer insults.
The employers are the real douchebags Scott, the custom that you like, respect so much and insist we should all follow supports terribly low standard wages because, they can make it up in tips.
Clearly you forgot the most important rule. And no, it is not always tip.
Yeah. Unfortunately the social supply of douchebags is not a zero sum game. Commenting in merely an abstract sense on the above posts: the attempt to prove that one is not a douchebag in a given situation by pointing out that someone else is, holds little logical water due to this unfortunate reality of society.
In fact, thinking about it on this general level, increasing the supply of douchebags in a given social situation probably creates a compounding rather than a dividing effect for the victims, no matter what the nature of the offenses in question. ;)
Whew, done with reading thread.
Now, responding more generally:
1. The job that makes the bulk of my hours is in a place with a voluntary, non socially obligatory tip jar (and also a mix of blue collar and white collar customers). The observation made by someone earlier in this thread, that blue collar are much more scrupulous about tipping, is absolutely true in this setting as well, at least of men. The guys who come in from freezing their assess off on fishing boats in January tip to a man. The guys who commute from Boston, a lot more mixed. I have noticed less of a gap with women, though.
2. I can't say that I've noted any difference between religious and nonreligious. But then, this is small town New England here, with all its notorious lack of social openness. Personal details like religion are not even referred to unguardedly with anyone more distant than close friends, as a typical social rule. So I probably couldn't tell if there was one.
3. One thing I don't yet understand from the foreign posters in this thread, who have referred to the practice of visiting tipping places and refusing to tip, when they travel here. I get the whole thing someone said about how it is viewed as degrading in your own systems to have to (metaphorically) get down on one's knees and beg for money instead of getting a living wage, and a lot of you don't seem to like that about the way things are done here. Which is fine and understandable. You've got a good point, although it would be fair to note that it is not the only point to be made about this system.
I also get that it can probably be confusing and less than ideal as a system in that regard as well. If someone just doesn't realize they are supposed to tip, that doesn't necessarily have anything to say about their character unless ignorance is willful. Their Wisdom score, maybe ;)
However, if you're visiting a foreign land with a horrible system which makes the guy who just worked to serve you (metaphorically) get down on his knees and beg you in order to get decent pay for the work he just did for you, instead of getting such automatically with no need for begging via the establishment - then even if you wish the system itself were otherwise - how does it become the morally superior response to (metaphorically) kick the poor bastard while he's down there begging, and leave without paying him instead?
I mean, the way I interpret that, as an American, is that you are choosing to voluntarily lower yourself to the same moral level as the system you oppose, as a weird form of symbolic protest.
I just don't actually understand why this is a good response. Like, at all.
3. One thing I don't yet understand from the foreign posters in this thread, who have referred to the practice of visiting tipping places and refusing to tip, when they travel here. I get the whole thing someone said about how it is viewed as degrading in your own systems to have to (metaphorically) get down on one's knees and beg for money instead of getting a living wage, and a lot of you don't seem to like that about the way things are done here. Which is fine and understandable. You've got a good point, although it would be fair to note that it is not the only point to be made about this system.I also get that it can probably be confusing and less than ideal as a system in that regard as well. If someone just doesn't realize they are supposed to tip, that doesn't necessarily have anything to say about their character unless ignorance is willful. Their Wisdom score, maybe ;)
However, if you're visiting a foreign land with a horrible system which makes the guy who just worked to serve you (metaphorically) get down on his knees and beg you...
In my (extensive) time as a server, foreigners have typically tipped...well, ok. It's like they read a travel journal that indicates that 15% is what happens (regardless of service) and, well, have a good night.
For me, this is fine. I was a professional server for a good while. I understood that the European/Asian/African/what have you tables would not, typically react monetarily as well as American tables would. As a professional, that didn't change my behavior. Once in a while I'd get that table that read a different book or just had a better understanding of American customs... sometimes it happens. The 15%? No problem, it covers my tip-out and puts a little cash in my pocket.
Servers, don't undervalue your foreign customers; you'd be surprised how many of them understand American tipping.
Americans abroad, The extra Euro when it applies it not unwelcome. Don't get extravagant and you will make your waiter/ress happy.
It's like they read a travel journal
Funny how that can help out. It's almost like those are meant to help inform you about the different customs in place in foreign lands.
It's like they read a travel journalFunny how that can help out. It's almost like those are meant to help inform you about the different social contracts in place in foreign lands.
Indeed. This is mostly why I didn't get mad when, despite my exemplary service, I got, almost exactly, 15%.
Like I said I would tip if I were visiting the US, but I can understand why people don't want to.
It's perpetuating something unseemly, exploitative and mean.
But not tipping hurts the employee.
I go into a restaurant in Australia - service, prep, food and extras are there in the price of the dish on the menu.
Except that tipping is not unseemly, exploitative, and mean. That is just making something up and pretending it is real so as to downgrade something you don't like. Pretty silly.
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Except that tipping is not unseemly, exploitative, and mean. That is just making something up and pretending it is real so as to downgrade something you don't like. Pretty silly.
Not when you come from a culture where tipping is only considered an option if service is particularly good. In Australia we have wage rates and the like that pay wait staff reasonable wages so that tipping is not a necessity. What other industry expects the customer to directly pay part of the staff wages rather than paying the restaurant owner the full amount and having them then pay their staff properly?
I understand why tipping is required in the US (and do it when I go there), but I still think it is because the industrial relations system is flawed, not because it is an optimal system for remunerating restaurant staff.
Not when you come from a culture where tipping is only considered an option if service is particularly good. In Australia we have wage rates and the like that pay wait staff reasonable wages so that tipping is not a necessity. What other industry expects the customer to directly pay part of the staff wages rather than paying the restaurant owner the full amount and having them then pay their staff properly?
Massage therapists, hair stylists, taxi drivers, etc. Each has a unique system set up (commission, rental, etc.) where their arrangement with their employer/contractor does not provide a typical salary, and where the customer is expected to directly pay a significant amount of the worker's salary. Despite what you may think, this is not at all an uncommon way of doing business in the service sector.
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Except that tipping is not unseemly, exploitative, and mean. That is just making something up and pretending it is real so as to downgrade something you don't like. Pretty silly.
It's reinforcing the class system... The low wage earner is forced to fawn and grovel for your largess. Because the tight arsed bastard they are working for is too greedy/lazy to institute a fair system of payment.
It's reinforcing the class system... The low wage earner is forced to fawn and grovel for your largess. Because the tight arsed bastard they are working for is too greedy/lazy to institute a fair system of payment.
I've never had the impression that any of the service personnel I've interacted with have groveled or fawned for my money. And precious few of the servers I know would ever describe their work as begging.
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Kshama Sawant ‘throwing down the gauntlet’ over minimum wage
In Boston (well, People's Republic of Cambridge, really), we got about 40-50 people despite the snowstorm.
Forward to workers revolution!
Vive le Galt!
I've never had the impression that any of the service personnel I've interacted with have groveled or fawned for my money. And precious few of the servers I know would ever describe their work as begging.It's reinforcing the class system... The low wage earner is forced to fawn and grovel for your largess. Because the tight arsed bastard they are working for is too greedy/lazy to institute a fair system of payment.
I'm not really sure I agree either. As mentioned, there's that point to be made (and it is a good point) but it's not the only point to be made.
What I mean when I say that it is a good point, is that I think it's true of some tipped jobs/workers. And I can totally see how someone could read a distastefully aristocratic type of relationship into the system, without straining too hard.
What I mean when I say that it is not the only point to be made, is that that is (certainly) not actually true of all tipped jobs/workers, that fawning and begging is an accurate description. Or (as far as my own impressions can take me) most.
And one of those other points to be made is that I need tips to pay for my groceries. Even though my paycheck pay is north of minimum wage. So I am not sure I should regard tipping with implacable hatred and resentment, at least while my paycheck alone isn't going to cover eating.
Personally, as my shorter comrade has alluded to a few times, I think that if one were to conclude that tipping has to go, the best time to move forward with that would be after ensuring the minimum wage ceases to suck. And maybe once the revolution comes I'll put up one of those no tips accepted signs.*
It also still doesn't change that even if one puts on the other man's shoes and regards the system as terrible, I find it difficult to walk in them if the path leads to "and so I won't tip as long as the system endures."
8th Dwarf, I know that wasn't you, so, (to continue the metaphor), if the shoe fits...
*(Well, who am I kidding. Probably I'd be too busy being up against the wall)