at this point, this is just theorycraft but i've been on a big dwarf kick lately and i'm wondering if/how you would put together an effective party of 5 dwarves... i don't have anything specific in mind for them (so you could make them at any level, though obviously builds that are viable every level are better), but if we come up with a solid party i might use them as the pregens for a future one-shot, or recurring npcs in the next campaign i run.
my initial thoughts are:
- fighter[2 weapon warrior] (starting 14/16/16/10/12/8). all the 2WF feats, power attack... start with an urgrosh and upgrade to 2 waraxes at 11th level when improved balance comes online. solid melee guy.
- ranger[guide] 2/inquisitor. Str build; take dorn dergar master feat, invest in quickdraw shield, 'switch hit' between 2 handing the chain-flail (for extra damage) or 2WF with it and the shield. decent melee guy, skill monkey, secondary divine caster.
- monk[sensei] 4/cavalier[musketeer] 1/battle herald (keep Cha 10+). use a pistol, take amateur gunslinger (quick clear for deed), take rapid reload and plan to invest in alchemical cartridges so you can iterate; wear a breastplate until/unless wisdom is +6 or more (already gave up pretty much everything that you lose for wearing armor). decent ranged attacker, party buffer, leader/face.
- cleric[forgemaster] (no need to worry about Cha, but throw a few points in Int). worship your ancestors or a philosophy/minor god pertaining to dwarven armaments and readiness for battle (whatever you end up with, take artifice for domain and longhammer for favored weapon). standard reach cleric build. full divine caster, decent melee support.
- monk[sohei] 1/sorcerer[wildblooded- empyreal] 6/eldritch knight (Wis>Str=Dex>Con, dump Int and Cha). doesn't get 9th level spells til 20th, unfortunately, but has better defense than most casters, take combat reflexes and fight like reach cleric with a longaxe (or longhammer, or dorn dergar...) and flurry against opponents that get adjacent. arcane caster, fair melee support.
assuming a 20 pt buy and all paizo books (no 3rd party), how would you build/change/replace these guys?
I was thinking about GMing a game with an all dwarf party with premade PCs, too. My idea was to make them all shield users and all have the shield wall teamwork feat.
I have not build the party and I do not know whether I will any time soon, but I guess I would make it an inquisitor, a ranger, a cleric. Not sure about the arcane catser because most can't use shields very well or need cha, like the bard.
You could have a wizard as an arcane caster. They use intelligence instead of charisma, so it could work. I'm surprised there's no Druid listed yet actually. A barbarian could be a better choice than fighter also though. Because dwarves get a boost to con.
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I'd suggest a stonelord Paladin for the party....
.. merely because the main push-back i hear from players considering that class are them asking themselves... "Why would this Paladin of dwarfness be slumming with this bunch of yokels"
an all dwarf party gets around that.
A melee-focused druid sound nice for the "tank" spot.
You could go with a dwarf druid for the scouting spot.
Then a dwarf druid could be the blaster&battlefield control guy.
You could take a dwarven druid as healer/buffer.
And as 5th party member, druids are quite cool.
As a bonus, you get 5 animal companion :P
I love dwarves. This is awesome. If you wanted to make these guys as dwarfy as possible, I'd suggest a Stonelord paladin, a Skyseeker, and someone who specializes in the Dwarven Boulder Helmet. Dorn Dergars are awesome too!
Make sure someone in the party is a Brewmaster on the side, to provide dwarven booze for fun and buffs!
The Dwarves of Glarion book is really cool. I'd recommend you check it out.
I am currently running an all dwarf party. It isnt terribly efficient in all aspects (I've got a samurai & a fighter) but I am giving them NPCs to do some support, so soon they will have an archivist bard & a chirurgeon alchemist. I'll see how it goes.
I approve of this idea.
When I have some time will post some dwarves.
umbranus- i like that idea for an obstacle party that slows down PCs while they're chasing/fleeing/whatever, but i think their damage output might be a bit too low for pregens...
craig- that comment makes me want to switch to a witch for the arcane caster just to pick up the prehensile hair hex, so he can have the most epic beard ever, lol.
haus cat- i thought about maybe doing fighter 1/scryer 1/EK for the arcane caster, but it looked like defenses would be an issue and i wasn't a huge fan of have no racial bonus to both of his 2 primary stats (Str and Int); i suppose that would be less of an issue if he focused on casting (or used the build i just mentioned for craig).
templar- i never think of stonelords (largely because you're right- why slum it with not-dwarves)... but that could actually be a nice frontline tough guy.
imbicatus- indeed it is.
gustavo- dwarves do have pretty solid stats for druids; i hadn't included any because in mind any dwarf that could would clank around in metal armor... that said, if you want to make some specific suggestions about a dwarven druid (or several) i'd be glad to consider them :)
khaz- yes. someone would need profession[brewer] and brew potion (and maybe even brewmaster). i also assume that several of them would end up with glory of old and/or steel soul.
cwheezy- the monk levels are what qualify him for battle herald. if the goal was making him great with a gun you'd be totally right, but the idea was for him to be throwing down party buffs and using his gun for support.
william- would love to hear specifics...
buzzby- lol, exactly like that.
8- look forward to it!
gustavo- dwarves do have pretty solid stats for druids; i hadn't included any because in mind any dwarf that could would clank around in metal armor... that said, if you want to make some specific suggestions about a dwarven druid (or several) i'd be glad to consider them :)
Well, the full druid-party was just a joke because of the druid's awesomeness.
However, I think druids are nice for dwarves, not only because of the stats. Sure they don't fit with the standard Celtic-Gaul forest-dwelling druid, but there's an archetype about Cave Druids too. Or regular druids with Cave Domain or Mountain domain or Strength domain. Even Menhir Savant fits well. Druids are linked to nature, but nature =/= plants. Dwarves have fluff about conection with the earth itself, and a Dwarf druid which shapeshift into an earth elemental is cool. You have also badgers, wolverines, and bears, all of them quite "dwarvish"
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Sounds like it could get hairy.
Don't sell the idea short.
I ran an all dwarf party and they were totally non-iconic dwarves.
Sorcerer - Clean freak that cast Prestidigitation all the time
Druid - Pig-pen style covered in filth to the constant irritation of the sorcerer
Rogue - Swashbuckler type that had a rapier and thought he was the Errol Fylnn of dwarves and it was his dream to have his own ship.
Monk - Liked to use bare hands but also had a cool pair of nunchaku.
Ranger - Archer type that was as good as Legolas with a bow.
There came a funny moment around 3rd level when the party needed a hammer and not a single one had one on them. So then I thought it would be funny to see how many had an axe and guess what, no one did!
They were so odd that I had the dwarf king send them on a mission but it was mostly because they just did not fit in with the rest of the clan. So with one quest the king got rid of all of his oddballs.
Anyway, they loved to use Darkness as a tactic when fighting the non-darkvision foes like humans and such. It was not only fun, but really effective even if they were the oddest bunch of dwarves around.
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You could have a wizard as an arcane caster. They use intelligence instead of charisma, so it could work.
Exactly. My primary character was a Dwarf wizard/fighter in 3.5 and a magus in PF.
In fact sorcerer is even viable with the empyreal bloodline.
I'd love to play a dwarf bard but sadly I cannot commit to putting a -2 in my primary stat :(
bfobar & hendelbolaf- thanks for that, are there any that stick out in your mind as particularly effective, or particularly amusing, builds?
artemis- its funny that you say that because one of the guys i was thinking about was an empyreal sorcerer/eldritch knight...
to everyone... i hadn't chosen an inquisition/domain for the ranger/inquisitor- the battle herald would handle face skills (so no need for conversion), so what should he take? would it be worth taking gunpowder to have a firearm for a ranged weapon even if he doesn't really have the feats to invest in ranged combat? also, if we were to switch in a druid who should he replace?
artemis- its funny that you say that because one of the guys i was thinking about was an empyreal sorcerer/eldritch knight...
Sohei monk? ;)
Sohei monk? ;)
are you guessing or did you look at my original post where it says that, lol
Sohei monk? ;)are you guessing or did you look at my original post where it says that, lol
I cast Foresight. :P
umbranus- i like that idea for an obstacle party that slows down PCs while they're chasing/fleeing/whatever, but i think their damage output might be a bit too low for pregens...
Depends on the adventure.
I planned to make a most of the adventure play below ground with mostly 10ft passages that can be pretty walled off using shield wall with the front guys going melee and the back guys doing fire support. Sure, the melees will do a little less damage but melee damage isn't the dwarf's speciality to begin with. They get no bonus on strength, after all. But they are tough. And by choosing the right classes for them they can be skill monkeys in addition to melees.
I likes me a dwarven armored hulk barbarian with the witch hunter line of rage powers and steel soul. Makes the frothing beard even harder to hurt with magic but that's me. For a dwarven ranged person gotta go with the iconic dwarven ranger with a heavy crossbow. There is also the stone singer racial feat for dwarven bards that lets deaf pc's gain the benefits of audible bardic performances while underground, with the diva archetype for more and heavier armor because I like the idea of a tin can singing.
I would love to play in an all dwarf party. And I would be excited to run one if the players all wanted to do it!
Funny thing, I think the idea sits better than an all Elf party.
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I would love to play in an all dwarf party. And I would be excited to run one if the players all wanted to do it!
Funny thing, I think the idea sits better than an all Elf party.
We have beards, and axes, and beards, and we invented booze.
What's with all the no-axe, no-hammer dwarves? Get some axes up in this hizzy, stat!
Dwarves make very effective zen archers.
A stonelord paladin, an invulnerable barbarian, a sohei monk with a dire boar mount (leadership feat), a skald bard, a crusader cleric, a grenadier alchemist.
The grenadier might take the trapfinding trait and become the groups trap specialist.
My personal preference is to downplay arcane magic with dwarves
wheezy- thanks for the build. i'm actually a proponent of (dwarves specifically) dipping fighter as a cleric, but i usually just do 1 level (mostly for heavy armor and all the nice exotic dwarven weapons they get with martial proficiency). what's the selling point for the 2nd level? a 1 level dip puts new spell levels even with an oracle, but 2 levels puts you a full spell-level behind normal clerics...
fireberd- if you want to run a PBP all dwarf campaign this might be a good place to recruit (i can guarantee you'd have at least one player, lol)
HRE- in my original post i had 1 guy 2WF with waraxes, and another in a reach build with a longaxe (plus one with a longhammer, and one with a dorn dergar... i'm not sure their weapons could be much dwarfier)
remco- i like that list, but you have 1 too many... my personal preference is sort of to downplay arcane magic among dwarves too, but i worry that you're putting a party at a distinct disadvantage (especially at mid to high level) if there's no wiz/sorc at all...
HRE- in my original post i had 1 guy 2WF with waraxes, and another in a reach build with a longaxe (plus one with a longhammer, and one with a dorn dergar... i'm not sure their weapons could be much dwarfier)
Good! Dwarves should have axes!
jk. I could see a dwarf using other weapons, it's just not as dwarfy.
remco- i like that list, but you have 1 too many... my personal preference is sort of to downplay arcane magic among dwarves too, but i worry that you're putting a party at a distinct disadvantage (especially at mid to high level) if there's no wiz/sorc at all...
A dwarf witch or wizard would be fun, I think. I could see a dwarf magus or EK, especially. A little fight to go with the magic.
And axes!!!1!!!lol
I do have a build that dual-wield the "dorn-dergar" (dwarven chain-flail) that would allow you to TWF with 2 chain flails, or control the battle field with one in "near" and one in "reach".
Dark Dwarven Arcanist= Wizard+Diabolist PrC
Be a Conjurer.
Summon, Battlefield Control, and when you hit Diabolist the bonuses to dealing with devils will make Binding alot easier.
I like the idea of a dark dwarf binder.
he could be the serious guy in your ragtag dwarf group. with darker motives.
you are a bit less squishy than a normal wizard and you don't suffer as much from not having a INT bonus. craft/scribe/bind...profit!
see DMDM's stuff on the Diabolist/PlanarBinding, its excellent.
ImpFamiliar+1
william- that's exactly how i originally envisioned the 2WF fighter. i switched him partly cause i felt like there needed to be at least one guy who was gonna get up adjacent to enemies. plus i like the idea of a guy who switches styles between 2 handing a dorn dergar and 2WF with that and a shield (i wanted to go ranger for that so he could ignore the dex requirement, and combining that with inquisitor seemed interesting/flavorful, plus i liked the option to take the travel domain for better move)
I like the Foehammer archetype. With shield slam and break guard you can disarm, attack, bull rush, and trip as one standard action.
The most dwarf-y group in my opinion:
- Dwarven fighter (two-handed fighter) that specializes in wielding a greataxe.
- Dwarven fighter (foehammer) that specializes in wielding an earthbreaker.
- Dwarven fighter (shielded fighter) that specializes in shield bashing.
- Dwarven fighter (two-weapon warrior) that specializes in wielding a dwarven waraxe (mainhand) and light hammer (offhand); switch to a warhammer at later levels (unless the DM allows Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, in which pick it up as soon as possible as to wield a warhammer instead of a light hammer); also take Anvil of Thunder if it is available.
- Dwarven fighter (brawler) that specializes in grappling; uses a dwarven boulder helmet.
The most dwarf-y group in my opinion:
I think the typical dwarf party should be competent out of combat, too.
The most dwarf-y group in my opinion:I think the typical dwarf party should be competent out of combat, too.
Five chances to succeed at Intimidate! XD
detect magic- that is a very dwarfy party... i'd be a little concerned though about a party with zero magical support, and about the same skills, lol.
It could be fun, but the DM would have to tailor the campaign around an all fighter party. That said, there's always traits and stuff to pick up extra class skills, but still, they won't have many ranks.
No magic is the biggest problem, especially in the face of mind-controlling and other debilitating magics, but then again, the DM can go light on those sort of challenges (dwarves can get pretty good saves versus magic with hardy, steel soul, and glory of old, though, so the DM could still use that sort of stuff sometimes... just not as often as he or she might with a full caster in the group to dispel).
The brawler could grapple a spellcaster which might prevent crippling spells from being cast in the first place. Then consider their damage output, especially if they're focusing on one target; they could potentially kill most spellcasters in one round (assuming they each hit with at least one attack).
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Eh, looks to me like they'd be short on some stuff.Sounds like it could get hairy.Don't sell the idea short.
I was going to make a dwarf pun too, but it might go right over their heads. Perhaps these jokes just take too much micro-management.
In a word with High fantasy adventure, five capitalist dwarves are determined to strike it rich... by strip mining the first small dungeon they encounter. Watch as all of their experience gain becomes due to roleplay, and strength checks to break walls.... with hammers
WATCH! as they spend every bit of their wealth, on raw metals to make stronger hammers with!.
Be amazed at the stunning scenery of a three room dungeon sold FOR SCRAP.
And be brought to tears, by their realization that some extra-dimentional creature wants them to leave, at any cost imaginable
hmmm... lots of great suggestions :)
so if we're willing to neglect arcane casting, what about:
- paladin[stonelord]: waraxe and large shield (basically indestructible, frontline obstacle, fair damage)
- fighter[foehammer]: earthbreaker (good damage dealer, some control through combat maneuvers)
- ranger 2/inquisitor: str based dorn dergar master, alternate between 2handing and 2WF with quickdraw shield (good damage dealer, skill monkey, divine casting support)
- monk[sensei] 4/cavalier[musketeer] 1/battle herald: pistol with rapid reload/alchemical cartridges (decent ranged attacker, party buffer, leader/face)
- fighter 1/cleric[forgemaster]: heavy armor, longhammer, reach build (divine caster, melee support)
every single one of them is proficient with all martial weapons (including 'dwarven' exotic weapons), so they can all carry a very dwarven backup weapon (like a waraxe, longaxe, longhammer, or dorn dergar) in case they get disarmed/greased or just want options (reach/non-reach if they don't normally have it, or a different damage type). the ranger could take the guide archetype (so he can assign favored enemy to any one enemy/day) or could coordinate favored enemy with the giant hunter or wyrmscourged racial alternatives.
thoughts?