How does this work? The Teleport spell suggests that you need to have seen the place you want to teleport to so I immediately thought of using Scry to fill that gap. However, the Scry spell targets a creature not a location.
Is there a better spell to use in this instance? Or do you just say "I'm scrying for the nearest creature to this location"?
In the later case I'm guessing the creature would get a +10 mod to it's save.
Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.
As for scrying... check the note for the "none" section:
"*You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge"
So unless you have an object belonging/indicating a creature, no go.
Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.
As for scrying... check the note for the "none" section:
"*You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge"
So unless you have an object belonging/indicating a creature, no go.
Hmm. That's a problem.
This isn't for a scry and fry, it's just to travel to another part of the world without having to spend weeks travelling.
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I'd let a detailed painting or map probably count as "viewed once". Also, you can find someone from the area you're trying to go to and ask them to Share Memory of that area.
Try Greater Teleport.
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
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You couldn't scry on, say, "a random person near Sandpoint" just to get a teleport fix.
You could, however, scry on "the mayor of Sandpoint." You're out of luck if Sandpoint doesn't have a mayor--you might get a false destination in that case--but assuming she fails her saving throw, you're going to view Sandpoint Mayor Kendra Deverin.
But if you've seen a location, even through scry, you can teleport there. The chance of failure in that case is not insignificant, however.
And that's not considering any difficulties that might arise from an armed party teleporting into the mayor's office or residence.
Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.
While I don't think it is unreasonably to remove teleporting to a scryed location as a house rule, the spell itself specifically allows it:
"“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying. "
I'd let a detailed painting or map probably count as "viewed once".
I would say that this is really under the description of Greater Teleport. The standard Teleport says "Viewed once is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying." So the use of Scrying would help in this situation but it is still dicey.
Greater Teleport is the way to go if it is available.
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I'd let a detailed painting or map probably count as "viewed once".I would say that this is really under the description of Greater Teleport. The standard Teleport says "Viewed once is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying." So the use of Scrying would help in this situation but it is still dicey.
Greater Teleport is the way to go if it is available.
Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?
Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?
False destination is the best option there is.
"Teleport Spell, take me inside my good old treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
"What you say? That room doesn't exist? Well then, just take me to nearest treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
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Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?
I have had no less than two groups wind up in the middle of an ocean because of failed teleports. Not fun for the fighters!!
Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?I have had no less than two groups wind up in the middle of an ocean because of failed teleports. Not fun for the fighters!!
But it does sound like a rather fun practical joke for the wizards...
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Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?I have had no less than two groups wind up in the middle of an ocean because of failed teleports. Not fun for the fighters!!
Hey are you my GM because that has happened to our group. Twice!
Damn, it's true they mention scrying. Well, into my houserule bin it goes.
I'm still trying to find ways to allow people to teleport where they havent been, but it will likely be more restrictive than the current vague rules. I like teleport, but it makes little sense to be able to teleport somewhere you've never been, or that you dont at least know the coordinates of.
Damn, it's true they mention scrying. Well, into my houserule bin it goes.
I'm still trying to find ways to allow people to teleport where they havent been, but it will likely be more restrictive than the current vague rules. I like teleport, but it makes little sense to be able to teleport somewhere you've never been, or that you dont at least know the coordinates of.
Personally I applied a hourse rule to my games, specifically to prevent scry and die tactics. This rule reduces how awesomely good the spells are without rendering them worthless by basically saying it only functions on outdoor areas.
Divination magic and teleportation magic are blocked by 5 ft of earth, 1 ft of stone, 1 inch of metal, or a thin layer of lead.
. . . I'm still trying to find ways to allow people to teleport where they havent been, but it will likely be more restrictive than the current vague rules. . .
How adverse are you to Psionics? If you aren't, and you can find a nomad with a good knowledge: planes check, then you can use the astral plane as a shortcut. Though it still has problems... using the power twice (once to get to the astral plane, once to come back), possibly being the target of astral creatures, taking an absolute minimum of 3 days (when manifested as a 4th level power), etc...
. . . I'm still trying to find ways to allow people to teleport where they havent been, but it will likely be more restrictive than the current vague rules. . .How adverse are you to Psionics? If you aren't, and you can find a nomad with a good knowledge: planes check, then you can use the astral plane as a shortcut. Though it still has problems... using the power twice (once to get to the astral plane, once to come back), possibly being the target of astral creatures, taking an absolute minimum of 3 days (when manifested as a 4th level power), etc...
I've been meaning to look into the psionics stuff, and this isnt too bad.
However, my current plan is to tie teleportation up to "coordinates". If you want to teleport somewhere, you need a "scroll" (0 cost) that indicates longitude, latitude, and altitude (on a spherical world). The scroll would take minimum one hour to prepare.
It's interesting in that:
1) You can easily teleport back to wherever you've been before
2) You can teleport into the enemies hideout if you convince a treacherous mage to prepare the coordinates for you (which I find an interesting idea)
3) Scrolls to common places would be fairly simple to find, so if you wanted to get to a far away city you could "buy" them from other mages.
It's an idea I'm workshoping.
Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?
False destination is the best option there is.
"Teleport Spell, take me inside my good old treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
"What you say? That room doesn't exist? Well then, just take me to nearest treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
That's all well and good until someone's teleport trap spell they were using to guard their vault places you in a pitch-black, inescapable tomb filled with poison gas.
The RAW on Tport and Scry isn't all that clear, but reading the devs posts here, the RAI is clear.
Let us assume you want to "scry & fry" the BBEG. Well, you can't just do that. I know it sez "“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying." but apparently what is meant is that you know the BBEG has three hang-outs , and you can scry to see which of the three he's at now. Then T-port in. But you have to know the BBEG to scry.
That's all well and good until someone's teleport trap spell they were using to guard their vault places you in a pitch-black, inescapable tomb filled with poison gas.Pffft...there is only an 11% chance of failure if viewed once. What could pooosssibly go wrong?!?
False destination is the best option there is.
"Teleport Spell, take me inside my good old treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
"What you say? That room doesn't exist? Well then, just take me to nearest treasury filled with gold and all things expensive!"
Now I know how to defend my demiplane fortress. Thanks ravingdork!
Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.No. "False destination" means "you are wrong, this place does not exist."
If it exists, it is not a false destination. The entire point of a false destination is that it is literally completely logically impossible for anyone to go there by any means, even absolute direct divine intervention.
If the combined powers of the entire pantheon of deities could get you there, it's not a false destination.
My understanding of false destination is not quite that extreme... it's more along the lines of "you think the place is in chicago, but in fact it's in beijing, so when you try to teleport there your coordinates are way off and you cant get there". But yeah, I'll admit I didnt read too deeply into the description, and you are right.
In any case, no need to get angry about it. I've got my own houserules to get around potential trouble.
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I'll point out that in addition to all the other potential hiccups there is absolutely no guaranty that said Mayor (or whoever you scry) is actually in Sandpoint/where you want to go when you scry them. Maybe it works and you scry the mayor. The mayor along with anyone else in the vicinity is oblivious to the scry sensor ... or not so much perhaps ;) and the Teleport is accurate without mishap ... and you are down the road in the next town over but don't recognize it as such, of course, since you've never been there either ... etc. etc.. Really depends on as a GM how much you want to deal with (or dis/encourage) this method (teleporting specifically to places the PC's have never been to/"seen once") of travel by the party. It could rapidly turn into a major diversion from whatever the PCs were doing with any and all consequences involved. Might be just the thing to shake up a sandbox type campaign ... or really sidetrack that carefully planned and timed adventure the PCs were on.
All true. I once had a player evac the party from a near TPK encounter by teleporting "to the nearest temple of Calistria." Oh, he got there, but it took some real shoehorning to get the adventure back on track from there (it was a PFS scenario and the nearest temple was hundreds of miles away).
The RAW on Tport and Scry isn't all that clear, but reading the devs posts here, the RAI is clear.
Let us assume you want to "scry & fry" the BBEG. Well, you can't just do that. I know it sez "“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying." but apparently what is meant is that you know the BBEG has three hang-outs , and you can scry to see which of the three he's at now. Then T-port in. But you have to know the BBEG to scry.
I hate to do this to you DrDeth, but would you mind digging up (and linking) said conversation - I'd be interested to read their commentary more in depth. If what you're suggesting is true (I have no doubt it is, but this is the internet, can you blame me for checking my sources?) then I may have to add a new house rule...
Give me a seck, I was part of that conversation too, I think I can find it.
Dammit. I cant find it. I do remember a similar conversation, but I just cant find it.
I did however fin James Jacobs take on it:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qay1&page=2?How-would-you-make-a-High-Leve l-Play-Book#68
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Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.While I don't think it is unreasonably to remove teleporting to a scryed location as a house rule, the spell itself specifically allows it:
"“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying. "
Using the spell scrying could work if you see something easily recognizable near the person you are scrying, as an example if you scry the Major of Sandopoint and you see it near a statue that you have see in some picture and you know is in Riddleport and you know, at least vaguely, where Riddleport is.
On the other hand if you see him in a room he can be anywhere. He can be in Riddleport, he can be outside the town visiting his mistress, he can be in Korvosa for some businesses or in some other location.Using scry on a person don't give you any information on where that person is unless you see something that you can recognize in the small area of effect of the scry spell.
Teleport require 2 informations: "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination."
Scrying give you the layout of the destination, but it don't give you the location.
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Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.No. "False destination" means "you are wrong, this place does not exist."
If it exists, it is not a false destination. The entire point of a false destination is that it is literally completely logically impossible for anyone to go there by any means, even absolute direct divine intervention.
If the combined powers of the entire pantheon of deities could get you there, it's not a false destination.
My understanding of false destination is not quite that extreme... it's more along the lines of "you think the place is in chicago, but in fact it's in beijing, so when you try to teleport there your coordinates are way off and you cant get there". But yeah, I'll admit I didnt read too deeply into the description, and you are right.
In any case, no need to get angry about it. I've got my own houserules to get around potential trouble.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist
"This room in London", when the room you are seeing is in Coventry is a a place that "does not truly exist".
So yes, if you don't know in which location is the destination location (ans scrying let you see a area of 10' around the target creature), you are teleporting to a false destination.|
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The saving throw isn't to determine whether the scrying was successful, it is to determine whether the target knows they are being scryed upon or not
You could, however, scry on "the mayor of Sandpoint." You're out of luck if Sandpoint doesn't have a mayor--you might get a false destination in that case--but assuming she fails her saving throw, you're going to view Sandpoint Mayor Kendra Deverin.
Scrying
Saving Throw Will negates
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If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and its surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.
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If the save succeeds, you can't attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.
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And from the Skull & Shackles Player companion:
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.
There is the question of how you "scry upon a particular ship first" but it make abundantly clear that if you don't know where a location is you fail in teleporting there even if you know its layout.
Give me a seck, I was part of that conversation too, I think I can find it.
Dammit. I cant find it. I do remember a similar conversation, but I just cant find it.
I did however fin James Jacobs take on it:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qay1&page=2?How-would-you-make-a-High-Leve l-Play-Book#68
Yeah, that was JJ's main post and there was something else in "Ask JJ" and I think SKR said something along those lines....
I'm still trying to find ways to allow people to teleport where they havent been, but it will likely be more restrictive than the current vague rules. I like teleport, but it makes little sense to be able to teleport somewhere you've never been, or that you dont at least know the coordinates of.
Rewinding time to 9 posts earlier...
Try Greater Teleport.
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
...and there you go.
The saving throw isn't to determine whether the scrying was successful, it is to determine whether the target knows they are being scryed upon or not
I don't know where you're getting this, because I just have to read the first two lines of the spell to see that this is wrong.
You can observe a creature at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the spell fails.
I houserule that scrying doesn't give you enough information about the subject's location to get a fix for a teleport. It's more for metagame reasons: the journey is very often part of the story I want to tell.
I've also houseruled that chance of a teleport error triples if the caster doesn't have a good idea of where he is at the time of casting.
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Yeah, you cant really. I know a lot of people support the "scry & fry" method of problem solving, but you need a certain familiarity with a place before being able to do so. I (as a GM) would consider anything seen through scrying as a "false destination", since you have no idea of it's place within the universe.No. "False destination" means "you are wrong, this place does not exist."
If it exists, it is not a false destination. The entire point of a false destination is that it is literally completely logically impossible for anyone to go there by any means, even absolute direct divine intervention.
If the combined powers of the entire pantheon of deities could get you there, it's not a false destination.
My understanding of false destination is not quite that extreme... it's more along the lines of "you think the place is in chicago, but in fact it's in beijing, so when you try to teleport there your coordinates are way off and you cant get there". But yeah, I'll admit I didnt read too deeply into the description, and you are right.
In any case, no need to get angry about it. I've got my own houserules to get around potential trouble.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist"This room in London", when the room you are seeing is in Coventry is a a place that "does not truly exist".
So yes, if you don't know in which location is the destination location (ans scrying let you see a area of 10' around the target creature), you are teleporting to a false destination.But you're not specifying London or Coventry. Just "the room I just looked at". So if that room exists, it's not a false location. You don't have to specify the relative position of a thing, just to have seen it or have a precise description of it.
If the room you just looked at exists, then the room you just looked at is not a false destination. Now,...
Wrong.
Read the pieced of the Skull and Shackles Player companion I citied above.You need to know the location. Scrying give you only the destination layout.
If you try to teleport to "the room I just looked at" without knowing its location the teleport fail. Exactly as it happen when you try to teleport to a know ship without knowing its location.
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Skulls and Shackles (as part of its list on how spells interact with ships) mentions scrying+teleport functions as well as teleporting to a location you can physically see.
I cited the whole piee above, and it say something different: a caster must scry upon a particular ship first,. You need to scry the ship, not use scrying on some guy on the ship.
And from the Skull & Shackles Player companion:
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.There is the question of how you "scry upon a particular ship first" but it make abundantly clear that if you don't know where a location is you fail in teleporting there even if you know its layout.This is a fascinating ruling, but it strikes me as deeply wrong. The problem here is simple: Scrying has a pretty long duration. So say I scry on someone in a particular cabin. I now watch them for ten minutes. Nothing I am watching changes in any way. Nothing about scrying tells me where they are, only what I can see in that room. And yet, somehow, teleporting to that unchanging room immediately works, but delaying even six seconds doesn't.
... Except that I never had any information about the location to begin with. I don't even know whether they're within the 100-mile-per-level range until I actually try the teleport!
Well, that's the first problem. We then get the inference that scrying is actually giving you information about locations that is so precise that even a single combat round of a ship's motion invalidates it. That's a huge and potentially gamebreaking change to make to scrying, and a huge buff for casters. Can't teleport there except immediately after scrying? This is nothing compared to getting GPS-quality information about where something is! But if we aren't getting such information, this ruling is incoherent.
The second problem is that this implies an arbitrary canonical frame of reference. The fact that the ship is moving invalidates your teleportation targeting....
You are confusing the Scrying spell with scrying something. The rule say "a caster must scry upon a particular ship first", not a person.
There are a few ways to scry a location but the Scrying spell isn't one of them.
The second problem is that this implies an arbitrary canonical frame of reference. The fact that the ship is moving invalidates your teleportation targeting. What about the fact that the planet is moving? What about a gigantic island which is actually floating, and moves about ten feet per day? Can you teleport there only within a day or two of scrying it?The spell does claim that you need "some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." But it seems to me that a much simpler solution is to simply say "well, then, scrying doesn't do you any good, because it doesn't tell you where the thing scryed is".
Basically, if location matters enough that the movement of a ship invalidates teleporting, then scrying isn't enough to teleport anyway.
Exactly. If you are using the Scrying spell and you don't see something in its radius of effect that allow you to recognize the location, Scrying alone is insufficient for teleport.
What people forget is the exact test in the teleport spell.
“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
It doesn't say. "Scrying is enough to allow teleportation", it say that Scrying can be enough to allow teleportation.
Let's say I have a webcam and I am broadcasting my face to the world.
Now what you will see? A room with a lot of Pathfinder books and some SF/Fantasy book. Nothing useful to fix my location. You can't locate me.
Another frame: behind me you see a the Colosseum. You recognize it, so you know I am in Rome. You have an idea of where Rome is (or you can find it in a atlas), so you have a fix on my location and you see the layout of the location. You can teleport.
About the "arbitrary canonical frame of reference", you don't need it. You need a frame of reference between your starting location and your destination. Rome is "there" on the planet while New York is "here". At that point the movement of the planet doesn't matter.
On the other hand when you are teleporting from New York to Crater Copernicus the Moon you need to consider the relative motion of the two celestial bodies. And we have Interplanetary Teleport for that.
Similarly, if you want to Teleport from the bow to the stern of the same ship, it being in motion shouldn't matter. Your references are fixed. The bow is here the stern is there.
As long as the starting and arrival points share the same reference frame and stay in the same relation with it you don't need to have external references.
It is one of the experiments of Galileo. If you do physics tests on the land and in the interior of the ship moving at a constant speed you get the same results and you can't determine if the ship is stationary or moving.