OK a few things I think as a GM,
1st I would not have a problem with a character acting as it should so if the paladin took exception to your awesome baking spy master plot I would be OK. however that's not the case it's the player causing problems and it's not really his place and should butt out.
2nd I would allow you to do this because it pretty awesome. I would say you are pushing the bounds of neutrality as well as lawful. that's OK but I might shift you depending on how it is playing out.
3rd is more about treasure I like to keep that pretty even among the party. if your information gathering pastries are unbalancing the economics of the party I would try to fix that. I love good ideas but I don't want a good idea to steal the spot light to much.
my 2cp
Marthkus, that bit you bolded is true, but only so far as it goes. A player might claim to be Chaotic Neutral all he wants, but if he pulls puppy-kicking evil left right and center, the DMs got perfect justification to veto that and tell him he's being evil, and has shifted accordingly.
Really doesn't matter. You are whatever alignment you want as long as you can loosely justify your action.
Any forcible change of alignment is ALWAYS GM fiat, because it must be a non-normal situation outside the scope of the rules.
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I think the paladin is perfectly justified to complain if you do not ping on his evil radar.
I'd say this is an evil act, but probably not enough to cause an alignment change by itself, unless you took it to extreme heights.
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Maybe there's minor evil taint associated with it...
But the question is, what else do you do? What else do you do with this information specifically?
If that's good, it could balance out. Not saying that good and evil acts balance out linearly,
doing evil to achieve good is not guaranteed to remain good, or even neutral.
But there's a very solid chance that you HAVE remained neutral.
Neutrals aren't Saints, after all, especially since Good guys often aren't either.
P.S. Eclairs are WAY Evil.
I think the paladin is perfectly justified to complain if you do not ping on his evil radar.True, but pleading to the GM for an alignment change, has nothing to do with the Paladin character, and more to do with the paladin player being a jerk and infringing on the roleplaying of others.
I can think of several reasons why the player would not enjoy this scheme as much as the OP without being a jerk. Players generally do not play a paladin to be party to the 'evil pastry cartel', frankly that isn't my expectation of the game either. I can also imagine this scheme consuming a fair bit of a time at the gaming table, which is likely as exciting as watching paint dry for other players.
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If a PC doesn't have a problem with this, they are murder hobos. They might accept it or not challenge it but it is evil.
If it was done to a PC they would murder hobo the shop and all of it's employees.
It is not a problem to RP something in this game, let them disagree. Worse case s/he will just have to atone for failing to save your soul.
-Maybe overused murder hobo, but I love the term.
edit: I am having trouble imagining a town worthy of a spy network that would not notice this. They are basically potions in pastry form, so a perception test to ID would be reasonable, let alone the aura on the pastry or passing a saving throw and wondering what is going on.
edit 2: I am being a bit silly and exaggerating, but still evil.
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
I am playing a 9th level wizard based in and around Magnimar. I learned (for me at least) a long time ago that the best characters are not the ones with the maxed out stats but the ones designed around a good concept or theme. As such, I have been working several angles with this character since I first started playing him. Very early on I took baking as a profession and put a few points into Craft: Baked Goods. That got a few funny looks from the other players. When the party started to acquire some treasure I bought a small one room building and set it up as a bake shop. These days the gold just flows into my pockets. Not because of the bakery itself (I don't think it even makes a profit) but because of what I do with it.
I have hired a man and his wife to work for me and for the most part they just bake and sell my wares. I do routinely place various enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods. Most of them are pretty harmless. They just make the patron want more. I'm not talking about a drug addiction kind of thing. The last thing I want is people stabbing each other in back alleys because they are desperate for a doughnut. It's more like they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free. A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin. Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.
I am like a giant spider...
Well...I'll put it like this. You are using magic to intentionally and willfully deny free will regarding the flow of information to unsuspecting people. You are doing this on a continual basis, using a method that is intentionally underhanded as you do not wish for them to know that they shared this information with you. You are, for all intents and purposes, stealing directly from their mind and trying to wrap it up in a veneer of respectability.
This would be akin to being able to go through your friends' cell phones, laptops, computers, address books, and diaries while they converse with you about pleasant topics, not knowing that you are using them for nothing more than your own personal greed. Do you think your friends would consider you evil, had you this ability?
Myself, I would not only consider you evil, but in a world where evil is a tangible thing...I would find you reprehensible enough to build a special prison for you.
Evil doesn't have to be dramatic to be evil.
But the broader point is, how is this different from using Charm spells, etc?
Are those also equivalently evil acts? Why aren't they given the [Evil] descriptor?
That still doesn't have to shift your actual alignment, other acts CAN balance it out, although not necessarily.
But I don't see a difference between casting a spell and casting a spell into a pastry.
The difference might be if you use a spell/pastry vs. a specific character who you know is evil and that is the best way to deal with them... Or possibly even innocent passerbys but for whom there is an immedite pressing need that they be charmed [that is for the greater good].
Vs. the OPs scenario where he is just on a 'fishing trip' to expand his power/knowledge possibly at the expense of the self interest of these people he charms. But if he actually IS doing all this 'for the greater good', then what is the difference to using a Charm spell on an innocent NPC to facilitate the fight against evil? He's just proactively building up his ability to fight evil.
The ambiguity there would arise from if/how he is damaging/endangering these innocent people. If that is happening, and he is plausibly aware of that likelyhood, then it gets more Evil. That might be something that is not true at first, but events change so that it does become true. THe character should change their strategy in that case, if they are to not be committing Evil acts. That could be something like the 'Information Broker" getting more Evil, or just the scenario changing so these people would now somehow be endangered against their interests.
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Side note: Deception is not evil; failing to share information is not evil. The OP as not stated that his spell is in any shape, way, or form robbing someone of free will to begin with. The minor enchantment is making them more likely to come back, and sheer enjoyment of the product is loosening their lips a bit.
Some of the OP's profits are going to charity, and many of these pastries appear to be getting donated to the poor and homeless at no charge (plus seemingly no strings attached coin to help them out). Even if one does think what they're doing is evil, one would also then have to admit that they are doing every bit as much, if not more, good than evil. The scheme appears to be overall beneficial to those involved on both ends. To expect an alignment infraction based purely on evidence provided by the OP is silly.
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Do you sell Devil's Food Cake?
If yes, then you are basically selling your alignment in cake form.
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[fails save vs alignment thread]
"they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)"
Not the same The Beard. His example is mind control. I admit the how he uses it is very important, which seems to be OK for now. But it is theft of will and coin, a bit Robin Hood like if the targets were causing harm.
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If a PC doesn't have a problem with this, they are murder hobos. They might accept it or not challenge it but it is evil.
If it was done to a PC they would murder hobo the shop and all of it's employees.
It is not a problem to RP something in this game, let them disagree. Worse case s/he will just have to atone for failing to save your soul.
-Maybe overused murder hobo, but I love the term.
edit: I am having trouble imagining a town worthy of a spy network that would not notice this. They are basically potions in pastry form, so a perception test to ID would be reasonable, let alone the aura on the pastry or passing a saving throw and wondering what is going on.
edit 2: I am being a bit silly and exaggerating, but still evil.
All PCs are murder hobos regardless of alignment.
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[fails save vs alignment thread]
"they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)"Not the same The Beard. His example is mind control. I admit the how he uses it is very important, which seems to be OK for now. But it is theft of will and coin, a bit Robin Hood like if the targets were causing harm.
Sounds to me like he's doing the equivalent of casting zone of truth in his establishment. Zone of truth =/= evil.
PS. Murderhobos, stand and unite!
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All PCs are murder hobos regardless of alignment.If a PC doesn't have a problem with this, they are murder hobos. They might accept it or not challenge it but it is evil.
If it was done to a PC they would murder hobo the shop and all of it's employees.
It is not a problem to RP something in this game, let them disagree. Worse case s/he will just have to atone for failing to save your soul.
-Maybe overused murder hobo, but I love the term.
edit: I am having trouble imagining a town worthy of a spy network that would not notice this. They are basically potions in pastry form, so a perception test to ID would be reasonable, let alone the aura on the pastry or passing a saving throw and wondering what is going on.
edit 2: I am being a bit silly and exaggerating, but still evil.
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Zone of truth is totally capable of being used for evil.
A good example of the OP is Breeze from the Mistborn trilogy with out the oppressive government and immoral authority.
edit: rethinking The Beard's point. Keeping secrets is not wrong though and revealing them does not necessarily do good. Still not drinking your cool-aid, but it is definitely a gray zone. Which is why I wouldn't vote for the evil status based on what I know.
So what some people are effectively saying is that the CEO of the company responsible for Pringles should take an alignment hit because their product always draws people in for more.
Wait... Are you saying... The CEO of Pringles... is BATMAN?!? ;-)
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
our parties PaladinAlmost got it:
PaladinI guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
Or, if the OP wasn't being Evil and a dick to the paladin. Obviously the OP and the Paladin have an issue. However, the Op is mind controlling innocent townspeople. That's certainly not a Good act.
The person performing the strange or unusual act is the one who has to defend his actions.
Yes, I realize some people here have issues with Paladins and the alignment system in general. But the Op is doing something wrong, not the Paladin.
Perhaps, indeed the Paladin may be being too confrontational about it. But the Op doesn't NEED to have a mind-control bakery in town.
Of course, sure- "It's just the way my character would act"- but the exact same thing applies to the paladin.
Op, it's simple. Invite the Paladins player to come here and post. We'll get both sides.
If you demur, that would indicate you aren't perhaps telling us the whole truth.
If indeed, however, the Paladins player is (as Rygin so delicately puts it) "being a dick", then that will be obvious from his posting.
On a related note, @#$% the Thalmor.
BY THE EIGHT! WHAT HERESY!
*gives secret stormcloak hand-sign*
At most I can see neutral evil but going out of your way to give away some of the profits and leftovers shifts that back in my eyes. Maybe take the paladin with you on a day on the job so he can see what happens and then personally hand out the pastries to the peoples on the street just to show that you care.
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Because, for some odd reason, it seems like most of the pricks get drawn into playing paladins. Don't get me wrong here; I've heard of some cool paladins with equally cool players. ... Just not very often.
Because only paladins roleplay or because only paladins are good?
Or- the jerk players, the one who always play "CN" who like to steal from the party, pickpocket, cause trouble and do whatever the heck they want- have problems when the players who play paladins call them on it.
On a related note, @#$% the Thalmor.
Hey, they only want what is best for Tamriel.
The rebels will accept peace when they realize that.
Or, if the OP wasn't being Evil and a dick to the paladin. Obviously the OP and the Paladin have an issue. However, the Op is mind controlling innocent townspeople. That's certainly not a Good act.
Non-Good? Sure.
Slightly evil? I can see it.
Cause for an alignment shift from LN, and already pragmatism based alignment, that is shown in canon to be very capable of handling slightly evil things to further their goals without turning evil (see: Hellknights)? Nuh-uh.
And honestly, I don't see any legit reason why the Paladin's PLAYER should be getting involved here, other than that he wants his character to be able to Smite his teammate.
What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income?
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.
Because we're not playing cubicles and careers. There are scads of economic games out there- play Settlers of Catan. I mean, you have a chance to play a true Fantasy hero, one who legends are made of, and instead you want to spend time ordering flour, exchanging recipes and counting coppers in the till. It's mundane and boring. He can do that during his work 40 hours, not during the games very limited few hours.
Paladin...enhance...
Paladin player!!!
;-)
[
Non-Good? Sure.Slightly evil? I can see it.
Cause for an alignment shift from LN, and already pragmatism based alignment, that is shown in canon to be very capable of handling slightly evil things to further their goals without turning evil (see: Hellknights)? Nuh-uh.
And honestly, I don't see any legit reason why the Paladin's PLAYER should be getting involved here, other than that he wants his character to be able to Smite his teammate.
I never weighed in on the alignment shift. It's a maybe. Has he done anything esle over the line?
But obviously there's some issues here and we don't know who is being "the dick' as you say. In the past, your posts have indicated some issues with paladins and the alignment system. can you be sure this sin;t clouding your judgement?
Mind you- of course alignment extreme players can cause issues at the table. I find the "CN" to be the worst, but poorly played paladins can be bad also, no doubt.
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BY THE EIGHT! WHAT HERESY!
*gives secret stormcloak hand-sign*
Hey, they only want what is best for Tamriel.
The rebels will accept peace when they realize that.
Funny enough, all my Dragonborns have learned towards Empire or neutral. It's just that every single one of them, including the High Elven ones, have still wound up killing every Thalmor they've met.
(I love that no one but the Thalmor get particularly upset about that)
((playing an Altmer in the Mage's College plotline was especially rewarding))
In the past, your posts have indicated some issues with paladins and the alignment system. can you be sure this isn't clouding your judgement?
It almost certainly is to an extent.
This particular scenario, where another player is petitioning the GM for an alignment shift sends off alarm bells to me, though.
I don't have problems with Paladins, per se, it's Paladins that revel in making things harder for the rest of their teammates, and that kind of behavior seems like nothing but that to me, at a glance.
Now, we don't have both sides here, yes, but my gut instinct is telling me it's a player issue not an in-game one.
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Because we're not playing cubicles and careers. There are scads of economic games out there- play Settlers of Catan. I mean, you have a chance to play a true Fantasy hero, one who legends are made of, and instead you want to spend time ordering flour, exchanging recipes and counting coppers in the till. It's mundane and boring. He can do that during his work 40 hours, not during the games very limited few hours.
What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income?
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.
Your logic also dictates that crafting should not be used for the purpose of turning a profit, then, and only for party gain? Denying the right to some sort of side income is effectively stating that professions and crafting should do nothing to help you monetarily, save for discount gear. That is not at all the only way they were intended to be used; these things are clearly intended also to turn a profit.
In the past, your posts have indicated some issues with paladins and the alignment system. can you be sure this isn't clouding your judgement?It almost certainly is to an extent.
This particular scenario, where another player is petitioning the GM for an alignment shift sends off alarm bells to me, though.
I don't have problems with Paladins, per se, it's Paladins that revel in making things harder for the rest of their teammates, and that kind of behavior seems like nothing but that to me, at a glance.
Now, we don't have both sides here, yes, but my gut instinct is telling me it's a player issue not an in-game one.
This is kind of the vibe I am getting as well. Unfortunately, it is generally the paladin players that wind up being disruptive to games, and based on what we currently know, this might be another case of the same. It is the GM's decision whether or not the OP's actions constitute an alignment shift; a fellow player has no right to intercede unless there is obvious system abuse going on. If that's the case the perhaps they should find a group they don't disagree with to play with.
In the past, your posts have indicated some issues with paladins and the alignment system. can you be sure this isn't clouding your judgement?It almost certainly is to an extent.
This particular scenario, where another player is petitioning the GM for an alignment shift sends off alarm bells to me, though.
I don't have problems with Paladins, per se, it's Paladins that revel in making things harder for the rest of their teammates, and that kind of behavior seems like nothing but that to me, at a glance.
Now, we don't have both sides here, yes, but my gut instinct is telling me it's a player issue not an in-game one.
You could be right. But I'd like to hear the other side. Agreed?
Your logic also dictates that crafting should not be used for the purpose of turning a profit, then, and only for party gain? Denying the right to some sort of side income is effectively stating that professions and crafting should do nothing to help you monetarily, save for discount gear. That is not at all the only way they were intended to be used; these things are clearly intended also to turn a profit.Because we're not playing cubicles and careers. There are scads of economic games out there- play Settlers of Catan. I mean, you have a chance to play a true Fantasy hero, one who legends are made of, and instead you want to spend time ordering flour, exchanging recipes and counting coppers in the till. It's mundane and boring. He can do that during his work 40 hours, not during the games very limited few hours.
What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income?
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.
Some minor petty cash when there's too much downtime. Not a FT occupation that clearly here interferes with adventuring.
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Some minor petty cash when there's too much downtime. Not a FT occupation that clearly here interferes with adventuring.Your logic also dictates that crafting should not be used for the purpose of turning a profit, then, and only for party gain? Denying the right to some sort of side income is effectively stating that professions and crafting should do nothing to help you monetarily, save for discount gear. That is not at all the only way they were intended to be used; these things are clearly intended also to turn a profit.Because we're not playing cubicles and careers. There are scads of economic games out there- play Settlers of Catan. I mean, you have a chance to play a true Fantasy hero, one who legends are made of, and instead you want to spend time ordering flour, exchanging recipes and counting coppers in the till. It's mundane and boring. He can do that during his work 40 hours, not during the games very limited few hours.
What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income?
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.
Perhaps it isn't a campaign build around adventuring, but amassing a good deal of political and monetary power? Those sorts of games are all the rage these days. Besides that, I don't see the harm in spending a few minutes during a session to allocate resources during downtime, even if it is meant for adventuring.
Some might argue that one party member amassing greater wealth than the others is unfair, but I would counter by saying they have made investments in doing this that would probably otherwise have gone toward making their character more powerful. Seems quite fair to me that a person working towards it should out wealth the party hardcore.
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This is kind of the vibe I am getting as well. Unfortunately, it is generally the paladin players that wind up being disruptive to games, ..s...
My experience is that it's the CN players who are in their hearts wanna be CE that are the bigger problems. I have almost never experienced a problem with a paladin.
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As to good or evil; I'd say it's not evil because you aren't harming the people (or creating an addiction), at the very least it's no more evil than if you had cast the spell...
Addiction is as addiction does. Note the OP says that he doesn't addict people, he just uses a psychotropic element (in this case, magical) to get them to want his stuff against their better judgment, thus forcing them to pay to devour his baked goods by the dozen.
LOL!
I can't imagine a bigger bag of BS. That's the very definition of addiction. Just because he tries to say it isn't, doesn't mean we can't use our own common sense.
Of course he's evil. He is a the epicenter of a web of deceit, information theft, addiction, lies, falsification, fraud... need I go on?
I mean, I like what he's got going. It sounds like a fun turn of events. But to paraphrase what I said above (and Forrest Gump for the second time) evil is as evil does. And he does evil.
He does evil right like KFC does chicken.
But you could remove the 'magical compulsion to eat his cookies' aspect and the strategy still largely stands,
people will just love to eat his cookies if they are good enough, of course.
This sounds like magical MSG. Evil? OK. EEEEVIL? Maybe not.
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Pretty much what Bruunwald and ross Byers said, I think it is a FANTASTIC and brilliant concept! but the pally is right, definitely evil.
For the record i also think using charm person to be all "hey buddy tell me all your secrets :-D" *runs to sell secrets to an information broker*" would be evil as well.
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At this point it isn't so much a question of whether it's evil as whether or not he should get an alignment infraction. Part of his proceeds are going towards charity, and many of the pastries made are going to the poor and homeless. Seems like the kind of thing that would pretty much nullify the other, resulting in no alignment change at all.
So, what happens when a magically inclined member of the watch wonders about the popularity of these pastries and casts detect magic on one?
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I don't really like the notion of one player trying to lobby for the GM to change another PC's alignment. That seems pretty douchy*. Maybe he should worry more about his own character and not stick his nose in yours. If the GM think what you're doing is questionable, that's something to deal with between you and the GM (hint: it is. :p).
*) Especially when that player is playing a Paladin and is actively working to turn you evil so you can't team up anymore. If another player was trying to take steps to ensure that my character was incompatible with his, I'd probably wonder what was going on with that. But maybe he's just a busybody who think he should be as involved in your character as you are.
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It's borderline questionable, but it really depends on the context (what the information is, used for, who it's sold to, etc.). It's definitely not enough to automatically turn your PC evil though, which would depend heavily on other things the character does. Neutral is a balance between good and evil, and will do both things at times.
I'm more drawn to the lawful aspect. This definitely doesn't seem lawful to me.
So, what happens when a magically inclined member of the watch wonders about the popularity of these pastries and casts detect magic on one?
Depends... is it against the law to use magic in your baking? Quite frankly in a magical fantasy world that probably falls under the '11 secret herbs and spices' category.
My 2cp.... I don't think this ACTION is evil, so much as what he DOES with it.
Charm spells arent' inherently evil... Gathering information isn't inherently evil...
Running a massive spy ring and blackmailing innocent people? Definitely evil. Getting the password to the local thieves guild and clearing them out for the town guard?? less so.
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I would caution people that using real-world arrestable offenses isn't necessarily a good metric for whether something should be evil in D&D.
In any event, doing something like this in real life would likely get you arrested, which means it's probably either chaotic or evil, or both. I could see a paladin taking issue with it no matter how you slice it.
Indeed, there's more than a few real-world arrestable offences that we can't all agree on being good or evil in the real world!
(Hey, I'd award people steps towards Good for ridding the world of a few politicians...)