What constitutes as a "foe" for cleave (and probably other effects that use the wording)?


Rules Questions


As thread title says.

What makes a foe a foe?

For example, could I cleave two trees that are right next to each other?

What'd be the difference in cleaving two regular trees vs two animated trees?

What if I'm a dwarven lumberjack turned ranger with favored enemy: trees, and PTSD from the great ent-dwarven wars of 1848?


The answer to your actual question is "no".


In general you can attack objects and trees.

A foe is everything that threatens you, that tries to hit you, that tries to avoid your attacks and you try to avoid his attacks.

Attacking animated trees follows the combat rules, initiative etc. Attacking trees is not a combat situation. It is only lumberjacking.

At the first view a 20th level warrior is a better lumberjack than a 1rst level warrior because he has more attacks per round and a better power attack but that are all combat statistics. 8 hours of lumberjacking are something different compared to 8 rounds of combat. Additional hitting hard and fast is not the same as lumberjacking. A 20th level warrior can create a lot of valueless kindlings but a lumberjack with 'profession lumberjacking 10' produced expensive shelves in the same time.

A tree is not a creature with the 'plant' subtype (it is an abject by RAW) so you cannot choose it as favorite enemy.

Where is the cheese behind your question?


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So once trees are animated, they are possible to cleave, because they try to dodge and hit you? Oh! What if they are animated trees that PTSDwarf attacks in a surprise round out of invisibility without any provocation, before they moved/dodged/attacked him? Could PTSDwarf use his powers of cleave to detect hidden animated objects by trying to cleave everything, and if it works, they are clearly animated?

It may seem like I'm being intentionally obtuse, and you'd be right! I still think it's important to clarify though.

The cheese would be greater cleaving objects/the ground between targets to get beyond the limitation of targets having to stand adjacent to each other inherent to cleave.

I'm actually somewhat miffed I didn't find anything on that after a quick search. Most of the cheese I think of had already been done.


That's funny enough to make me want to allow it.


In our Kingmaker campaign, the Lumberjack NPC from that random encounter went from having Favored Enemy (Fey) to Favored Enemy (Plants) because of this. He knows how to chop'em trees real good. And in a world where trees can fight back, he's ready.


LoneKnave wrote:
The cheese would be greater cleaving objects/the ground between targets to get beyond the limitation of targets having to stand adjacent to each other inherent to cleave.

GCleave has limits by RAW and you try to break the limits so that GCleave has no limits and that is not allowed by RAW because by RAW GCleave has limits.

Use the search function or common sense for more cheese or answers. (hint 'targeting air between targets')


Oh, it'd still be limited by RAW. You couldn't use it if there was only air to hit between the targets, for example, since you can target a "space" assuming there's something there, but you'll miss, so you can't continue on cleaving). If they are standing on the ground however, you could target the ground and would probably hit that, and could continue your cleave.

Of course, if you could define "foe" in a way that makes sense both gameplay-wise and in universe...

Using your definition: Zorglaxh the mad butcher demon, could not Cleave sleeping peasants that are right next to each other.

PS.: did the search, didn't find anything relevant on the first page...


A foe, using some game terms and common sense, is something that could attack you (but doesn't have to) and is hostile towards you. Foes must be a creature of some sort. Objects are objects, whether it is a tree or ground or etc, it does not count as a foe.

In short, no you can't cheese your way into making Greater Cleave better. If you want it to be better take the damned Dwarven Racial Cleave Feats that allow you to cleave pretty much everybody in your reach.


Quote:
A foe, using some game terms and common sense, is something that could attack you (but doesn't have to) and is hostile towards you.

So if I befriend someone with diplomacy I then can't SURPRISE!cleave them?

Quote:
Foes must be a creature of some sort. Objects are objects, whether it is a tree or ground or etc, it does not count as a foe.

How does Trog, the lvl1 cleaving Orc fighter decide if 2 skeletons staying still next to each other motionless are animated skeletons being controlled by a necromancer waiting for an ambush, and so cleave targets, or just dead things?


We can come up with a rough definition of foe by looking at the way the word is used, but there's no one specific definition. The best answer to your question would be, "It'll do what the GM at your current able will allow it to do."

At my table, that would typically include being usable on any creature (be it biological, undead, object, etc.) that could potentially threaten you and that you know could threaten you. This means you could not cleave to a tree simply to get at the Orc standing next to it simply because "...the tree might be an evil Ent!"; if you knew that the tree was an evil Ent (even if it hadn't attacked you yet), then I'd allow it.

Grand Lodge

What about a Silent Image of an enemy?


Thus why I said "typically", indicating there would be exceptions. One of the uses of Silent Images is to trick someone into believing there is a threat. In that case I'd allow you to attempt to cleave to it because the illusion is realistic enough that you believe it might be a threat.

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Lantern Lodge

This sounds like the "I attempt to defensively sunder the floor using my foot with Combat Expertise" school of adding 7 to your AC just because.

I'd say if your GM can't make a judgment call on what's legit or not, by all means, try and cheese up your great cleaves.

But you cannot be upset when (s)he calls you out on it.


A simple answer is, if it is capable of rolling initiative it can be designated a foe.

Im not really sure what the over all intent of the threat is however. You cannot for example decide a bunch of inanimate trees are possibly animated trees and decide they are now foes.

Well I should say, you can decide that, but they will just sit there inanimately and never meett he definition i used above. More or less, if its some wierd atteempt to substitute 'tree' for 'bag of rats' assume whatever your trying doesnt work.

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