Can one use "bit of luck" on knowledge skill checks?

[Voomer]

The "bit of luck" clerical domain power provides: "Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."

Can it be used on a knowledge check? Presumably not if I just tell the players, "make a knowledge check." They couldn't then say, well, let the cleric touch me first and then I'll make the check. But what if they say, "we want to make a knowledge check on this. I'll have the cleric touch me and then make the check"

This seems wrong to me. Knowledge checks aren't like other actions. First, "In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action." And, second, there are no try again's allowed: "The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."

While a clerical bit of luck could help someone climb a wall or hit a monster, how could it help them remember something they never learned? Also, giving bit of luck for knowledge checks seems overpowered, since such checks often have a big influence on how the plot unfolds.

Your thoughts?

[aegrisomnia]

Knowledge checks represent what you happen to know. Knowing or not knowing something can be a matter of luck; for instance, a person may happen to have lived abroad and, therefore, knows a foreign language when the situation requires it.

I'd allow it. It's not luck affecting the outcome of the attempt, in this case; it's luck in sort of a universal karmic sense of unlikely coincidences becoming possible. As long as it wouldn't require that plot-relevant history be altered, I say go for it. Of course, whether luck will help or not is ultimately up to you. You can explain the increase in the knowledge check by saying that the luck ability selects among sufficiently compatible parallel universes, or simply that magic happened.

[Zhayne]

Failing a Knowledge check doesn't necessarily mean you never knew the information; you just can't remember it at the time. We've all forgotten things we've learned, or sat there thinking 'darn it, I know this ...'. Maybe you saw something that reminded you of the answer.

[Voomer]

Yeah, I don't think of it in such a mystical, parallel universes way. The ability is described as very round and action oriented; it seems unreasonable to read something like that, that the cleric can do a good number of times a day, as something that causes switches between parallel universes retroactively, instead of affecting the probability of an immediate future action. If the knowledge skill was described as determining what you remember in a moment rather than what you know in an absolute sense, then it might make bit of luck make more sense, as affecting your ability to recall at that moment.

[Voomer]

Zhayne wrote:

Failing a Knowledge check doesn't necessarily mean you never knew the information; you just can't remember it at the time. We've all forgotten things we've learned, or sat there thinking 'darn it, I know this ...'. Maybe you saw something that reminded you of the answer.

Actually, Zhayne, that isn't true under the rules as written. It is quite clear that a knowledge check represents "what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."

[Claxon]

I would say the ability would apply if for some reason they were under the effect when the knowledge roll was called. BUTTTTTTTT....knowledge rolls are usually a response to a stimulus. Not something you can prepare for, so the circumstances under which you could get the bonus would be limited. I would in know way allow the players to buff for the roll after its been called for. Its what they know at that moment. If they want to take time after the fact to research a topic at a library or other resource thats fine. But you know what you know. Being lucky might help you remember, but not if you don't already have the bonus applied.

[Zhayne]

Voomer wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Failing a Knowledge check doesn't necessarily mean you never knew the information; you just can't remember it at the time. We've all forgotten things we've learned, or sat there thinking 'darn it, I know this ...'. Maybe you saw something that reminded you of the answer.

Actually, Zhayne, that isn't true under the rules as written. It is quite clear that a knowledge check represents "what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."

I consider that flavor text.

[Brf]

I am with Claxon. If you are told to make a roll, you make it immediately. There is no time to get a buff before rolling it.

[aegrisomnia]

Voomer wrote:

Yeah, I don't think of it in such a mystical, parallel universes way. The ability is described as very round and action oriented; it seems unreasonable to read something like that, that the cleric can do a good number of times a day, as something that causes switches between parallel universes retroactively, instead of affecting the probability of an immediate future action. If the knowledge skill was described as determining what you remember in a moment rather than what you know in an absolute sense, then it might make bit of luck make more sense, as affecting your ability to recall at that moment.

Well, if you're already sure about what the ability means, why ask? No, really? What do you want us to say?

I see no reason why selecting between infinitely many otherwise compatible universes would be overpowered for a 1st level cleric ability. It only applies to skill checks and things one character is doing in a round. There would be no objective way to know, in game, that the spell had any effect at all, since its results would be consistent with everything that had been seen so far, and this ability can in no way allow a character to do something that would have been impossible otherwise (since the maximum is still a 20 on a d20).

If plot hinges on characters likely failing knowledge checks, just adjust the DCs of the checks to make them harder to beat. Upping the DC of certain checks will make it harder to succeed, even if you're using this ability.

EDIT: I'm also of the opinion that if the GM asks a player to roll for his/her character, that roll must happen immediately. If the character happens to already be under the effect of this ability, the character gets the benefit; otherwise, there's no time to react, and the check happens immediately. Of course, this might be circumvented in some ways, which involve keeping the knowledge-monkey safe from these stimuli until the cleric can use the ability and present them.

[Magda Luckbender]

I've played a Bit O'Luck cleric and love to use it in combat. It's rarely useful out of combat. I'd never try to apply it to knowledge rolls. As a GM I would not allow it for most knowledge rolls.